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This is Irene Reese interviewing Elvira Ramirez at West Branch Library. This is State 41A 14. Elvira Ramirez is director of the Spanish-speaking office of Kansas City, Kansas and assistant professor at the University of Kansas School of Social Welfare. Ms. Ramirez, I would like for you to

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tell me the place of your birth and the date of your birth. OK. I was born in um Kansas City, Kansas, and um In what is now called the central industrial district, uh, In March 25, 1937. All right, and tell me something about your early life,

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like the names of your parents. OK, my, my mother and father, uh, my father's name is, uh, Ramon Ramirez, and, uh, my mother's name is Antonia Ramirez. Uh, they, um, there were 12 children in our family, um. Of that, of the 12, 99 are living presently.

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3 died at, um, as infants. Um, at the present, I have 5 sisters and, and 3 brothers. All right. And were your parents from Kansas City, Kansas, or were they from Mexico or from where originally? My parents were both born in Mexico in a little town

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called Pueblo Nuevo Guanajuato, which is close to Irajuato. And um Dad came to the United States at the age of 13 years of age and Since he was the oldest in the family in order to make a living for his uh for his own family in

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Mexico. And uh He and mother were raised together as children and then. Later on, they, um. They were from the same. They were from the same neighborhood and all. Yes. Um-hum. And it wasn't until he returned as a, as a young man of 21 that, uh,

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he saw mother again and they married and came to the United States. And they both came. They both came. Um-hum. By that time, was he, um, working here somewhere or did he have other relatives or friends or? No. When my father came, he came at the

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age of 13 by himself, uh, working with the railroad. Oh. And followed it throughout the country and, um, And finally he settled here in Kansas City, Kansas, and then um He was recalled. He went back home because my grandfather was very ill, and that's when, uh,

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he met mother and, uh, by that time, dad was working with Armor and Company. So, when did. As a, uh, as a married couple and he already had a job. He already had a job and everything, yes. And everything, and surely friends by then he had

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made some. Yes. He moved right into the neighborhood where, Had been living for years previous to that. Previously. And that, what would that be, the location of that residence? That would be in, uh, what we call the Armadale or, uh. Oh, it's the central industrial district.

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It's, it's the, uh, the bottoms, uh, West, the West bottoms. Um-hum. Where Armor's was. You know where that is on James Street? Um-hum. I have a general. OK. All right. The, um, so were you, uh, born when they were living in this area? Yes, we were

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all born and raised there and we were all born at home. Uh, uh, my, uh, I guess I lived there until I left Kansas City back in 19, I guess 56. Um-hum. Do you remember something about the neighborhood and description as far as the, Um, not

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only the, the businesses, but the families was this a predominantly Mexican or Mexican American community, or was it a mixed racially and, um, socioeconomically, you know, OK, the neighborhood was definitely um a poverty area as we would describe it today. It was, uh, situated, uh, close

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to the rail to the railroad tracks that went in front and behind you. Uh, we're close to the river there. Uh, the business, most of the business there was, uh, Armors and Company, which took up a, a total of about uh. Is it must have taken.

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I imagine about 7 to 8 blocks in length. So that that was a major business and individuals were there. Now, the kinds of people that lived there were, um, were mixed racially. Uh, there were a larger amount of, of Mexicans that were living there that all

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came about the same time and were friends of my father's that came from Mexico as well. But we did have blacks and Anglos and Mexican Americans. And predominantly most of the families that lived there. Fathers particularly were they employed by. Almost all of the, all of

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the, uh, Mexican men that I knew that they were in the neighborhood all worked at armor and the children did too and the, uh, that was a major, the major business there. All right. So, then your father worked for that company, and I suppose your mother

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was with such a large family, was basically a homemaker. Right. My mother, my mother just cared for the family during that, during that period. Um-hum. The kinds of housing we had there were, um, were very small. In fact, uh, I think I lived in a five

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room, Five room house and, uh, we had a room for the girls and a room for the boys in the kitchen and uh, Um, and the living room and uh this was not housing provided by them. No, no, it was just these were just small houses

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that were provided. We even had an outhouse that whole time. In fact, we never had an indoor plumbing until my parents moved away from that area. Very well, uh, how about, um, The schools, did you attend one school basically as an elementary at the elementary level

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or did you attend more than one? No, uh, we all attended, uh, just one school at the primary level we. We attended Riverview Grade School, which is situated there on 7th and Pacific, um. Even though my father and mother were very good Catholics, um, and the

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priest was always, um, insisting that we go to Catholic, um, a Catholic school. The kinds of, the kind of school that was there was Saint Bridgets where they had 3 to 4 grades in one room. And because of my father's interest in education, uh, he would

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not allow us to go there. He insisted that we go to a public school where he thought we got a better education and a better start. And so we all, uh, we went to to one grade school that was located quite far from the house. In

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fact, we used to take the, uh, as even as children we used to, uh, take the bus bus to school and have to walk. We walked about 8 or 9 blocks. In fact, as, as children in the 1st grade and kindergartners, um, my father would meet

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us and carry us home because it was so cold in the winters. Yeah. So, that it was, uh, we, we had quite a distance to walk at times. It's really a little hardship to go that long way. Even though you did ride, you still had all

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that walk. Um, And what type of school would you say was this uh again was this? A mixed racially or was this. It was. Since it was a good ways from where you lived, was, did it serve a different type of neighborhood as well? It was

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mostly, um, I, I guess I would say it was the same individuals that I went to school with that I lived near. Um. And those that lived in the area, but, uh, I guess, At that point, that some of the individuals that there would probably be,

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you know, lower, uh, Uh, middle class. What did everybody speak Spanish at home? Your, your parents both spoke Spanish, but of course my parents, um, my parents spoke Spanish, uh, but we all spoke Spanish except for, um, the youngest ones, uh, I guess after myself, uh,

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then there was a, a break of about 4 years, and by the time my younger brother came we were all speaking English in the home. My parents were not, but all of us as children were, and so we had, they had lost some of the benefits

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of being as bilingual as the rest of us. You had an influence on them, learning, helping them with the English. Right. Were, were these sort of happy years for you as you look back now thinking about what activities you were in besides school? Maybe were you

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able to participate in any? Well, they were happier because we, um. Uh, there was a real, a real neighborhood. We, everyone got along and we, you know, we played the usual children's games and as I look back, it's amazing how you improvise on games and learning

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how to walk the tracks and play ball over, um, uh, you know, in, in despite the fact that the back lots and um we even went as far as to learn how to, I guess we couldn't afford kites because we used to put strings on them.

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On bugs to let them fly around and. But we improvised on all kinds of games. They were happy years. They were years that were very, very secure because most of our social activities were surrounded around my family, and we had so many brothers and sisters that

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we all did things together and we had a weekly outing where my father would take his son picnics or to the movies or or even out to buy ice cream together or whatever. So it was a very, a very secure kind of family life. And you

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had friends and everybody more or less, uh, we were all in the same in the same boat and financially and on special occasions we had a special family we visited that their family and our family would come together and have supper together and uh sit and

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chat and then play together and uh so we had a lot of friends that uh that that had the same, the same kinds of family structures as we. And thinking about the school too, did you find that the school, even looking back now with what you

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know now as conditions today, or as we're more aware of certain things, would you say that the school did provide good, um, learning situations for you at the time? I mean, you were not all placed in. One room or isolated or were you just attended classes

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with the other children? No, we attended classes with the other children. I think that, um, as I look back, I think my primary years were probably the best years. After that, I felt that it all went downhill. We had teachers, I think, um, that were very

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influential in the sense of, um, Uh, helping us learn and not only that, but we're very concerned about us. It wasn't unusual for the principal to uh make sure that everyone had had breakfast and to take us into her into her office and uh. You know,

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take care of us. If we were outside waiting for the bus and it was cold, she'd have us come in and I know that she used to take a lot of children and not only feed them but clothe them sometimes if they came from situations where

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they couldn't didn't have the right shoes and so forth and clothing. But the principal and the teachers were very, uh, humanitarian, you know, and, uh, very cared not only about our learning experiences, but I think about us. That was in the primary grades and they were

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very strict and that, uh, that of course corresponded with my parents, my parents' idea that the teachers to fulfill should be strict and fulfill a role. So there was no coming home and saying. We were mistreated at school or whatever it was, you'd do it and

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that was it. So I think it was a good influence. Um. What about the church? You were Catholics and, and did you attend one? I mean, you, um, when I say you and your family and was, was your mother or was the family active somewhat in

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the church or not very much? My parents were, um, uh, very, very Catholic. I think Catholic in, in the broad sense. Um, we did attend, uh. Uh, mass every Sunday and uh they were, we were very religious in the sense that my parents um During the,

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the Easter, um, during Easter time, the, uh, the vigil we would partial out the time to make sure that the church was always, um, Uh, being visited by one of, one of us since there were so many of us, and, uh, it wasn't unusual for mother

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to meet us at, at the corner with our change of clothes and our scarves so we could go to confession and to make this. To meet us along the way to make sure that we got in all of our, all of our religious obligations. They were

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also, um, every night they prayed the rosary together. They still do, and the whole family did and um there was a lot of religion. I don't think that I learned it in terms of dogma, which I realized later when I became a religious, but I think

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that there was a sincere kind of faith and it's still there. But it influenced us not in the sense that we became. Dogmatic, uh, or knowing what the church really was, I think it was just that institution that influence my parents so much. Well, this was

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true of so many of the Mexican families where they followed certain traditions of the church, like you say, mass and rosary, things like that, but not in terms of activities or being on the altar society and so forth, but they were very. They were very active

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churchgoers. We, we all were. Catholic, but what, what, what was the name of the attended, um, before the flood, the church called it was called St. Bridges, but then it was destroyed in the 1951 flood. And then did you switch over to another we switched over

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to Saint Mary's over on the 5th. 5th and 5th and Anne in Kansas City, Kansas. It's a downtown church. But what about, were there any programs or kind of fiestas or bazaars or anything that that they have that they didn't have that didn't have that at

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some of the other more Mexican or whatever churches. No, this was run by a, a German priest and, uh, so there was, there was no consideration for a different. Did you have a hobby as a as a child as you look back, do you remember? I

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guess hobby that I was interested in. My father was a musician and he was always playing the clarinet and I enjoyed that. So even as a youngster, I started taking violin lessons in the public school system and I went to a lot of concerts and, uh,

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was very much into, into classical music. Did you play for a long time? I played, um, all through high school and, uh, all through grade school and high school and then, uh, when I later I entered the convent and took lessons again for a period of

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time, then I stopped. You don't play now? You don't I don't play now. I don't have time. Oh. It's just a hobby. Um-hum. So about what time uh would you say you were through um elementary school that when you made this change that you went to

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another type school, about what time would this be? Let's say, um, in the 40s, yes. I went to a, a junior high school, Central Junior Central Junior Central Junior High School. Yes. And how did that compare to the elementary school? It was a little different. It

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was very different. Um, at that stage, um, we had a lot of problems because the teachers were just. We had a lot of problems with the teachers. They were always, um, sitting in the halls and, and, uh, trying to call in parents and they're just very

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uncontrollable. And, um, I guess that, you know, I'm sure that part of it was our own. Mischievousness, but at the same time, it was just, the whole school was kind of in a constant uproar. Was this a very large school? It was large, yes. Um. And

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I think that, uh, you just gotten out of the 6th grade and the 7th grade, then the girls were kind of boy crazy and, and, uh, they were trying their wings and it became a little more, Uncontrollable than the usual great storm. So there were many

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problems there. Plus there were a lot of problems there because we had at that point, um, separate groupings. We had those that were from Armidale, the, The problems with the Mexicans themselves, like the ones from Armida could uh were different from the ones from Argentine and

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the ones where I came from. So we had a separation of groups and You mean in classes themselves? Not in classes, but socially. Socially. In groups. And what would happen was that. The fighting would erupt. The fighting would erupt. It's a rivalry. Constant rivalry. And the

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girls, uh, uh, would, would become very angry if you looked at the boys from their area and so forth. There was a constant, and there was kind of a spooky feeling for us, but for me. Because we hadn't been taught to fight and we were always

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running running instead of fighting. Well, that is interesting and odd because I have heard the same observations, but I thought, oh, this is a kind of a An isolated thing, but I have heard it repeatedly from different people, both on the Kansas side and Missouri that.

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There was, uh, much rivalry between, like you say, the Mexicans themselves as they were from Armadale or from the Argentine or from whatever, and, uh, so, Apparently there was more to it than just a little bit, in other words. No, it was really very, um, it

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was a very conscious thing. It wasn't unusual to have to sneak out of classes before they got out, so that they would. To avoid that. To avoid, uh, any kind of conflict. Um-hum. And I came over, um, some of the, um, You know, when the young

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men were looking at us and we're looking at them and then we were threatened by the girls, the interesting thing was that the girls were, were, uh, really the ones that led a lot of the gangs. It's very unusual. And we, um, I suppose I say

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we, my sister and I went to school together. We were like twins. She's one year older, but my mother. Kept her home so that I would not go by myself and so we went to school together. Yeah. But it wasn't unusual to, uh, you know, for

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the two of us to try to get out as soon as possible because it was a constant fight. Um-hum. So did you graduate from there then, from this Graduated from Central Junior and went to Wyandotte. Wyandotte High School. Wyandotte High School. And did you graduate from

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there? Then I graduated from Wyandotte, yes. And. And about what time was that? That was back in 1950. 54, I guess. Oh, after the flood. Yes. Cause we're going to go back and talk about that. But how about Wyandot? Now, how did, how, how were your

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experiences there overall, the whole situation? Learning or social and Wyandotte was in, uh, was the first opportunity I, I had to meet with, um, The experience of being a minority, a complete minority within a school. This school was, was totally white. In fact, the white, the

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blacks could not go to school there. Yeah. And the Mexicans were. And the Mexicans were allowed, but there were only about 3 or 4 of us. Oh. And so, the, um, the climate was that of a, uh, Uh, the flavor was at a kind of an

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elitist, elitist school at that point. And we, uh, my sister and I didn't want to go to school. We wanted to go to Argentine where all the Mexicans went. But, uh, my father getting interested in education, said that, uh, we were going to have to suffer

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through it and get an education because it was considered to be a better school. And it was further away and everything. They still insisted we go there. So we, we lived through that and you rode the bus for that. We rode the bus, yes. And uh

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My sister and I graduated. I think she was. That came out the 25th of. Uh, from the top, and I was 100 from the top. I think there were about 400 students that graduated at the time. So we were in the upper third of the class

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when I graduated. But those were very difficult years because that was the time that We began to realize that we were different because even though students would accept us, their parents would not. Oh, the parents wouldn't. Well, but what about the teachers overall? Uh, if you

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were interested in the learning and all, did you, did you, didn't you? Feel fairly well or do you think they too were a novelty that they didn't. Uh, I think they were very good teachers and taught us, you know, taught us very well, and I didn't

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feel any bias from them, but it was really the parents. It was the parents of our, of our, um, friends that created problems like we were often not invited to things because the children would invite us or that these fellow students would, but when we then

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after one visit when they found out we were Mexican, we were not invited again and. And our, uh, fellow students would, would tell us that, you know, and, and feeling very badly about it because they would have to break friendships with us. How about clubs in

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schools for activities? We did not attend that. My father never allowed us to. We had to go straight home or go to the library. And so, uh, besides, uh, socially we just didn't feel very welcome. Most of our social events, uh, took part with, uh, finding

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the kids from, from Argentina and. Some of the uh Mexican groups. So that was most of our social kinds of context. All right. Um, then you said you finished about 54, so we'll back up a little bit to any event. Do you remember very much about

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World War II or how it might have affected the family, or did you hear? I mean, if you weren't. Yeah. Too aware of it. The only reason Irectly or. The only reason I remember it is that the, um, uh, when, The war came to an end.

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That that was the day that my brother was born and he said the war was over, but I don't know whether I remember too much about that. You know, how it might have affected, say, the Mexican community or somebody, but by '51 you were older enough

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or it did affect so many of you. Now you said you, uh, moved. I was in junior high school. Yes, mhm. Now what, uh, did it completely destroy your home or, or many of the other people's. Well, it might as well have destroyed our home. The

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walls were still up and. It, uh, we had to move out of there and, That was one of the most horrible experiences. Uh, I was in junior high school at that point, or was going into school. Um-hum. But, um, my mother was pregnant with the last

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child. And um We couldn't find anywhere to go and there were 9 of us, so consequently, you couldn't just move into a friend's home, even though my father had many. Many compadres, he didn't have any relatives that would accept us. Well, like you say, that larger

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group, that larger group to move into anyone's home. So we waited till the last minute and finally moved out of it, out of our home, um, later on, um. Uh, we lived in a, um, In, in one of the schools for the summer and while we

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were there, uh, one of the major things that we did was to return home, the older ones that were not working, we returned home every day to clean up the house and, um, we cleaned the house, uh, at least one room and papered it because my

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mother had the baby and we had to have one room to bring her to and we, we couldn't afford to, uh. To buy a home or change over. Not the whole house. You had it. We just did a room at a time until we didn't move

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in. So once the waters had gone down, we would go back every day and take out the mud and clean the walls and paper. And uh attempted to move back as soon as possible because school was beginning and uh we could no longer stay where we

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were and um we couldn't move and my father lost everything at the home was lost. I mean, as far as The house and the uh all the new furniture we purchased and everything else. So we moved back into one room after the flood in '51 and

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we had our stove there and all the bibs and the new baby and Everything else. And then while we were living there, we moved in one room at a time. And my parents lived there until, um, 1957, I think, until they finally purchased another home. Another

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home. Now, what about other, other, did you know other families that also lost everything or at least their homes and furnishings? Were there quite a few. Yes. People that you knew that were affected Almost, if the home was standing, the individuals came back and attempted to

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clean it up. And within time they were all all bought out by the industrial area through industrial area there but um. Uh, for every 1 home that stood, I guess there were at least 6 or 7 that went down. Um. And because the structures were so

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bad. So that, uh, everyone, a lot of our friends were displaced at that time and we lost contact with many people. Now how about, were there any, any persons that drowned or that were lost or was there ample warning so that they could get out? There

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was ample warning that in fact, the warning, the fact that it had happened in Armadale already. We were watching it on TV and we had seen it happening throughout the city, but we never imagined it would come to our area. Our daily walk was to the

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river to see how high the water had come. And before you would go to bed um. Uh, we would check to see how high the rib would come. What did happen was that, uh, the night before. The flood did come. We thought that the water would

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be very low. In fact, we piled all the furniture up how we worked all night. Then my father took my, my mother and, and the younger children over to a friend's house to stay overnight, and he stayed there because they've been working all night and slept

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at the house. And um we were listening to the radio and they said that the water had hit our home. My father hadn't returned. We didn't know if he was still asleep in the house or not, and um my mother at that point became hysterical being

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9 months pregnant. And, uh, so, what did happen was that he, he said that it was only by chance the police came to the house and woke him up. Otherwise he would have drowned in the. Oh, my. Drowned in that water as well. Um-hum. But all

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the homes were destroyed or at least, uh, 80% of them. But you didn't hear of any, anybody. There wasn't anyone that drowned in that, in our area. Just, just a lot of loss of furnishings and property, clothing, everything. We came out, uh, I had a pair

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of jeans on and a shirt, and that's all I had. And that's all you. That's all we took. We, just whatever we did, came out with. We always just assumed that we would be able to return and that the, the house would be all right. So

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we piled everything up high. But you did. Um-hum. But we didn't return. All right. Excuse me just a minute here. I'm going to turn the tape over.