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For the Kansas City Regional Oral History Project. This is. An interview on August 6th, 1988 with Judge Howard Sachs at his home. I'm Bill Ryan and Genevieve Robinson is also a, Here as an interviewer. Like this, so, um, We're, today is August 6, 1988, and we're

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talking to Judge Howard Sachs at his home in Kansas City, and I'm Bill Ryan with Genevieve Robinson. Um, now I already know because you sent us some, some information that you were born in 1925 in, in Kansas City. Is that correct? Kansas City, Missouri, um. Uh

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I'd like to, uh, um. Talk about things somewhat in a chronological order, although if we skip around, it doesn't uh it doesn't matter that much, but I know that. Part of your life has been. Concerned with social justice issues and civil rights. Uh, for a more

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open society might be one way to. I guess would be my way of putting that, uh, I'm curious to know what early influences you may have had which have contributed to that, um, at home and school. Synagogue or any, any other aspect of your, your early

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days that might have had some influence on. Well, it, uh, it is a little hard to, uh, it's a little hard to say, um. I I, I, the city itself and, uh, uh, I just think my family sort of fitted in, uh, would, was, uh, of

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course, uh, pretty, uh, conservative, particularly on, you know, interracialal issues, uh. Uh, back in, uh, the 19. 30s, um, I Uh, I, I really, um. I, I, I, I really have a hard time, um, um. With, uh, coming up with a source, of course, the, the,

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the Second World War. Uh, and the, um, the Hitler regime. Uh, concentrated so much attention on, uh. In a group Relations and Uh, discrimination against the Jews of Germany and, and, uh, ultimately, of course, the Holocaust, but, um. Uh, I, I suppose that that, uh. Uh,

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that that stirred, uh, everyone, uh, to think about, uh, about the groups in, in, in society, um. Including, um. The racial, racial issues as well as interethnic or religious. Uh, groups And um while. My school and. Navy did not. Create very much difference, uh. Well, maybe

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if, if I really probing it might, I might say it did, uh, at, at, at college there, um. At Williams College Uh, there were no, uh, uh, Jewish fraternities as such, and there were no, um, and the, um. The fraternities did not accept, uh, uh, Jewish

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students at that time, uh, so, uh, that, uh, all the non-fraternity people were in a, in a, uh, a club, um, by ourselves, and there was, I suppose, a certain. Um, You know, some social feeling, uh, uh, because of that. Uh, I, uh, I remember something

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that I did not put down in my notes that, uh, uh, right after the war when, um. There was a Um I suppose the beginning of the civil rights, civil rights movement, uh, others on campus, uh. A few people, uh, uh, were trying to change things

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and, uh, there was some testing of a, a barbershop, uh, uh, on campus. I was a reporter for the newspaper and, and wrote that up. Uh, so that was something that was of interest. This is racially, of course, uh, and then, uh, uh, in, in law

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school. There began to be the Supreme Court cases that attracted attention and debate in the school, uh, the, uh, the, uh, uh, Shelley and Kramer, the, the case about, uh, uh, restrictive covenants, striking down restrictive covenants, uh, that came down then and, uh. And I remember

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some. Of the law school professor's comments on it and uh. It was something that students talked about. And again it took, I, I, I must confess I guess it took me a little time to uh. Uh, to, uh, come around to the thought that, uh. A

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segregated society was not, was, uh, was. Unnatural and uh and uh uh and unfair to Uh, all concerned, but it was, uh, uh, I suppose it was outside forces and not from Kansas City that, uh. Uh, began to get me to think about things of this

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sort. You were at Harvard Law School. Uh, were there any particular professors you recall who did make a point of, of some of these issues, um, as opposed to others, um. You mentioned Shelley versus Kramer. I wonder if the, uh, well, uh, professor, uh. My recollection

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of this and, and of course you sometimes get things wrong when you're trying to think back that long, uh, my recollection is that Professor Robert Amory in in property law, uh, thought that uh. expressed the view that um. That Shelley and Kramer was unsound as a

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matter of constitutional law that it it that, but that it may have been right under property law that, uh, uh, restraint on alienation or something is a more was a more traditional, uh, type of thing that could have been concentrated on to, uh, uh, to, to

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get that change that would have been a change under state law rather than, uh, anything the United States Supreme Court could have done. Were there any other cases that may have uh. Been brought to the Supreme Court during that time that you recall, it may have

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also, especially for law students, uh, Been of note or did those come later on? Well, as I remember it, it was right at the end, maybe 1950. Which was when I graduated from law school that uh that the uh Supreme Court began to grapple with uh

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educational issues and they started. Because Thurgood Marshall and others were smart in doing it this way, I'm sure. Uh, they started at the, the graduate school. Uh, level and there were some, there were began to be decisions then. Of course there was the, the case from

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Missouri that was, uh, uh. That was uh earlier than that, but had not really been followed up uh from the late 30s. But that, that was a little before my time and didn't impress me so much at that point. I just, what was the climate among

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the law students in regards to Racial issues. That is from a legal standpoint. The thoughts. Well, I would say that uh generally probably more, more liberal than my, than my own, um, and it may have been because of uh. You know, coming from a different background

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and, and as, as I say, Missouri was pretty, pretty slow as, as, uh, as you know, uh, I, I don't remember a really. You know, active civil rights, uh, movement that, uh. Um, That was, uh, felt very much during my days 47 to 50 at, uh,

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at Harvard Law School. But right after that I was thrown into. A case here in Kansas City, uh, when I became, uh, do you, do you want me to go on, uh, I was, uh. I was law clerk to Judge Albert Ridge, uh, when I left

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law school and uh. At the end of my year's service. The uh uh lawsuit was filed the. Uh, Williams against the city of Kansas City. Um, To, um, Challenge the uh. Uh, the exclusion of, of blacks from the Swope Park, uh, swimming pool. And that was

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a. A matter of national interest because it must have been because Thurgood Marshall came back to uh try that case. And, uh, Uh I was fascinated by that, by the, the issue that was presented there and uh. Uh, while I was leaving Judge Ridge, I, I

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kind of volunteered, and he seemed to be pleased to have me. Uh, I kind of volunteered to. Help out with some legal research even after my, uh, term as clerk was uh technically, uh, over. And I did do some, uh, I did do some work on

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that, on that, uh, case. And uh I, I suppose, uh, law clerks can do a little talking this uh long after a clerkship, uh, the, uh. Uh, a twist that I think I may have given to the case. Uh, was, uh, to, to encourage, uh, Judge

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Ridge to adopt, um, a theory, uh, apart from the, the separate but equal doctrine which was the, you know, the basic thing that was being considered then, uh, that the, uh, the Civil War Civil Rights Act, uh, covered the situation and that it guaranteed an equal

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right to contract and. Uh, it seemed to me that, uh, apart from the. Uh, 14th Amendment and uh. Uh, and the separate but equal doctrine or whether the separate equal doctrine should be applied, uh, that, uh, the case could go off on the, uh, on a

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statutory violation of the, the old civil rights statute, and I, I kind of put, uh, I, I was, uh, interested in that issue. It seemed to me that that was a sound point, and, uh, it did appear in Judge Ridge's decision. It was one of the

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earliest, uh, decisions to use that. Civil rights statute for that purpose. In what capacity did Thur Thurgood Marshall, uh, take part in that case? He was the lead counsel, uh, actually it was uh. The factual issues were not. We're not all that debatable. I, I think

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it was fairly obvious that the um. That the pool was much finer than uh, than the, uh, I think, I think it was parade Park pool that, uh, uh, that was open to blacks. And uh So he had a rather easy time on this, on, on

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establishing that there had been a violation of the separate but equal doctrine. Uh, he did not succeed. I don't think he really hoped, uh, to, um. To get uh the district judge to strike down the separate but equal doctrine in that in that case, I think,

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uh, as I remember it, there was, you know, some effort to say that any, any discrimination as such, uh, was by the by the city. Was a violation of the constitution, but, uh, that was a couple of years before, uh, that issue was, would be considered

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a sound one at least by a trial judge. Do you remember what effect that decision had on, on life in Kansas City? Did it make much difference or was it an isolated incident at the time? No, I don't think, I don't think it was, uh, uh,

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isolated. Uh, maybe I'm reading more into it than uh. Maybe I'm reading more into it than uh. I should, but, uh, of course it is a fact that the. The The, the, the direction of the of the the black community moved was uh was toward this

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whole park area was so was southeast and um. Uh, I, I'm not sure that it had a, you know, a, a good long run effect. Uh, it, it opened that pool and, um, I suppose, uh, to a considerable extent, uh, the result may have been that,

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that, uh, while it, it increased, uh. Black opportunity and all that it, it didn't do a great deal for, for integration at the very beginning, I think for a short time. Um, People were hopeful, uh, this was not anything I had any personal connection with but

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just from impression. People were hopeful that, you know, we were going to have, uh, an integrated facility and all, but I think it, it, it did come, become, uh, almost entirely used by blacks. I don't know what's happening now, um, but, uh. Uh, from, from a

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practical standpoint, I think it, it may have affected the city, but I'm not entirely sure it did a great deal of good. Although it may be, I guess it improved the swimming opportunities. Uh, So you were a law clerk at that time and then you left

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to go into private practice, is that right? And and with uh. Phineas Rosenberg was uh my first affiliation at just a one, a one man law firm, so I got to see all kinds of uh. All kinds of Legal activities. Uh, you mentioned in, in some

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notes that you shared with us, um, that the Kansas City bar, membership to the Kansas City bar was opened up in about 1955, as I recall. Um, did you have some, some role in that to, uh. Broaden membership base. Yes, I did. I was part of

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a small group of lawyers who thought it should be done. I I don't really remember uh how that started uh whether there was an applicant uh I believe that uh. I believe Luke Clymer was one of the 1st 2 or 3 applicants that were under consideration

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at that time, but, uh, um. The names that I would, uh, that I, I think of as, as people who were. Actively helping out on that were. Uh, Irving Ochtenberg and, uh, and Lyman Field. And it caused, uh, quite a commotion in the Kansas City bar.

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It was surprising how, uh, uh, much excitement there could be over an issue like that. Uh, uh, it was a battle between the executive with the executive committee said no, and uh we had to challenge the executive committee's decision, and, uh, it drew, you know, a

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good crowd and, uh, um, a fair amount of, uh, of emotion. Up to that point, who had been excluded and after that, who was included? It was, it was a white male organization and uh. Uh, when it, uh, when it opened, uh. On the application of

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a couple of blacks, uh. Then everybody realized, well, it's pretty silly to keep the women out, isn't it? And, uh, so almost immediately I would think within just a couple of months, um. There were, there were, uh, uh, women applicants who were accepted or maybe they

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changed the rules. But anyway, the, the blacks and women came in just about the same time. Although it was a bla uh black applications that, uh, um, that, uh, that started and I, I might. I might, uh, I'm, I'm. Remembering a, a, uh, what I thought

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was kind of amusing story that, uh, a, uh, a state senator. Who I guess was trying to. Mend his fences all around, uh, was on the, uh, uh, lawyer obviously was on the, uh. Uh, executive committee and was, uh, we had counted him as being an

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opponent and I, I think it was fairly obvious that he was. Uh, an opponent of the change. Uh, then on the night when, uh, the change was, uh, was voted through. Uh, I remember, uh. Overhearing uh his uh. He's uh Coming over to Lucille Bluford, who

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was covering it for the call. And saying, well we won. So, I guess, uh, he, he was trying to keep in good, uh, uh, and reasonably good terms with some of his constituents. Type of arguments were used by people against admitting blacks. And women. But in

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particular I guess blacks since that's how initiated. I can't remember any good arguments or any arguments really at all. Uh, it would just, uh, you know, we've never done this and, uh, uh, it was, uh, I, I suppose it was, uh, um. The the basic feeling

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whether it was whether it was said or not, the basic feeling was that, uh, uh, we're comfortable socially, uh, uh, as a white men's organization. And, uh, it's, it's not gonna be as comfortable if we let in all those people. uh, uh, of course they hardly,

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uh, hardly any, any black lawyers at the time and and um. Just a handful, uh, and, and, and similarly things were not going to change very radically to have, uh, also a handful of women. Was there a separate, uh, black, uh. I think, I think so.

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I think there was, uh, and I'm not sure, I'm not positive that that hasn't uh. Hasn't continued. It's, it's just a, you know, just as a very small group, I think maybe called the Jackson County Bar Association or something like that. Oh. You became involved with

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the Urban League at some point. I'm wondering if we could maybe. We could discuss that, your involvement, how you might have gotten involved in that in the first place and uh uh what some of your, it's it's rather difficult to to remember how things started. I,

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I suppose by by 55 or so uh that uh. That you know some people would realize that I that I was interested in uh intergroup uh intergroup relations, uh. And uh The Urban League itself, uh, I, I'm not sure what, how it's, whether it's reputation has,

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has changed, but the Urban League was, uh, uh, was a very respectable, uh, organization, and they were, uh, there were, uh, some of the old line, uh, white, uh, uh, participants who, uh. Um, But I, I, I guess basically, uh, you'd say they may have had

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a kind of a paternalistic, uh, uh, attitude that the, the, the black community needs help and we should help it. I mean, I, I don't know that. I don't mean it in a very negative sense, but, uh, that's sort of what it, I suppose, amounted to,

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uh, although, once they're on the board, I think that, uh. Go. Pleasant enough, uh, social relations, uh, that, that, that occurred and I, I think, uh, Arthur Brink was on the board, um. Uh, Joe Kenton was on the board, uh. Ed Gilbert, uh, was on the

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board when I was, uh, and, uh. Uh, Bill Snore. And uh uh Donald Davis was president uh I was vice president the year that he died so I I was uh kind of nominally uh president for some months, although I, I thought I was uh a

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bit immature at the time to, to, uh, run for reelection and I thought I was an accidental president, so I, I didn't stay on very long. And he was involved in an incident you told us about when Adlai Stevenson came to Kansas City to uh campaign,

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um. Yes, do you want me to relate that you want me to review that with you, yeah, please. He was he was editor of the. Yeah, he was, he was the editor of, of the Call and, uh, uh, his, his widow is, is Mrs. Herman Johnson.

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Uh, anyway, um. it. He, um, uh, a very, very outstanding person, um. Uh, he was, uh, on the, invited to be on the, on the platform. With, uh, with Stevenson at, uh, when, uh, when, when Stevenson came to Kansas City in his second campaign for president

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in 1956. Um, And, uh, He told us afterwards and I suppose this would have been an Urban League meeting. I, I don't have the direct, I can't just visualize it, but he told us afterwards that, uh. Uh, that, uh, he had wanted, uh, something to eat

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either before or after the meeting and had gone to a, a nearby, a nearby restaurant whether it was the Hotel Milbach, I don't know, but, uh, that would have been nearby, uh, in any event, um. They, uh, They. Either gave him some food or they told

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him that yes they would supply, supply him with what he wanted but he needed to take it out to eat and uh. He, uh, he said, uh, they wanted me to, uh, I eat in the park with the bums. And uh it, it, it was uh.

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It, it, it was a rather shocking, uh, occasion, uh, uh, particularly. You know, with the, with the feeling that, that, that we had about him. Uh, and, um, uh, that was, um, uh, for me the beginning of, uh, the, really the civil rights movement of trying

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to adopt an ordinance in Kansas City, uh, that would, uh, prohibit, um. Uh, discrimination in restaurants and uh. Uh, and hotels were they were the immediate, uh, immediate target. And somehow, um. Yeah, some of us were on the National Conference of Christians and Jews board, uh,

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as well as Urban League. Uh, somehow, uh, the issue was presented to them and They thought that uh that a um. The city ought ought to be appealed to and uh the next event that I can remember was, uh, that a, uh, a hearing was held

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in City Hall, uh, to, um. To, uh, uh, have people make presentations, uh, uh, why there was a need for, uh, some action, uh, and, uh, uh, I guess at the same meeting there was an opportunity to oppose it, although I don't rem I can't remember

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the, uh, people opposing it at that particular, um, hearing, and there was a wide, uh, there was wide support, uh, from. Um, right-minded people, uh, uh, for, uh, for doing something, and I particularly remember the, uh, Episcopal bishop, uh. Appearing and I thought that that was,

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uh, that he was impressive looking and wearing his robes and, uh, uh, and I, and I thought that it was important to have uh. Uh, that sort of, uh, that sort of support, uh, what we found was that there was, uh, uh, uh, the opposition then

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concentrated on legal issues. Could the city pass a, uh, an ordinance, uh, when the state had not taken any action. Um, You mentioned the National Council of Christians and Jews, uh, Along with the Urban League, were, were there other organizations in town that were also that

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you're aware of who, uh, uh, and you mentioned the Episcopal bishops, so the Episcopal Church in some way must have been involved. Uh, was the Jewish community involved actively that you recall in this, or other religious bodies or other organizations? Yes, well, uh, I, I don't

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have any, any, uh, very strong recollection of, uh, uh, appearances at the, uh, At this hearing, I'm sure that, uh, I'm sure there were, uh, Jewish organizations that, uh, that were, were heard from. uh, Sydney Lawrence was the uh director of the, um, Community Relations Bureau,

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which later it was the Jewish Community Relations Bureau, but they, uh. Didn't use the word Jewish for a while, uh, anyway, um. Uh, I, I, I know that there were, were, uh, presentations, you know, in favor of, uh, in favor of, uh. An ordinance, uh, by

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Jewish groups, uh, I, I don't have any much of a recollection of it because I guess that was sort of anticipated that, uh, people that you would expect to be rather liberal minded on that subject would uh would be heard from. Now you're, once that passed,

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um, your father was involved, was he not in in. Helping to force this in some way, yeah, that, that was a little different, a little different incident. I'll, I'll tell you about it, uh. Uh, I, uh, maybe I ought to say just a few words on

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the, the, the, the, this legal point that, uh, I, I did mention that there was a, a question. The city councilor's office said it couldn't be done, uh, that the city didn't have authority to act independently of the, of the state, uh, and, uh. Uh, I

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was on a legal committee of the, of the city commission on Human Relations. And I did some legal research and uh and uh I. Wrote a memorandum saying that it could be done in, in my view, uh, and also drafted the ordinance. um, I was with

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a group of lawyers who drafted the ordinance. Um, And uh it could be, it could be that Tony Nugent, uh, now Judge, Judge Nugent, the Missouri Court of Appeals may have been in that group. I, I don't remember for sure. In any event, um. It was

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my thought, and we did it this way, that we should concentrate on what we thought was really important, uh, rather than um a general public accommodations ordinance which might deal with uh more debatable things and that uh we should uh try to get that that the

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appeal to the public and to the councilman would be stronger, uh, if we, uh, if we kept the necessities. Uh, food and lodging, uh, basically, and so that was the first ordinance and it was adopted and it was, it was, it was. It was difficult to

00:31:00.439 - 00:31:18.079

get it through because of the objections of the city councilor, uh, and people who, you know, the, the, the involved businesses I guess were at least behind the scenes were trying not to be regulated. They thought there'd be problems, which I don't think there were. Sorry

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to interrupt. Are we, are we going? OK, uh, a couple of years later. Uh A couple of years later, the people said, well, now why should it be limited just to, uh, restaurants and hotels. There are other, other places, uh, all, all, all places that appeal

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for the to, to public patronage, uh, should have to serve, uh, without, uh, without, uh, racial, uh, restrictions, uh, and, um. So then there was a second ordinance, a comprehensive ordinance, uh, that one, and I can remember in a meeting with Bruce Watkins when we were

00:32:06.040 - 00:32:27.979

working on that, uh, in any event, uh. Uh, That one did draw more fire from the public and, and there were, uh, there were petitions out for a vote, uh, that to, uh, a referendum to repeal, uh, the ordinance the, the, the tavern owners, I think,

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took the, took the lead on took the lead on opposition, and I, I don't know what all, uh, uh. Dance halls whatever uh but I think it was principally the uh the the bars were trying to be closed. They didn't didn't want they didn't think it

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was gonna work to have uh to mix uh race and liquor, uh, in any event, uh. There was a vote and it was. It was closely contested and, and just barely got through and I, I worked somewhat in that election, but, um, but just before the

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election, uh. Uh, I had an, an idea that if the mayor, uh, Mayor Davis would, uh, uh, announce who the committee would be to enforce the ordinance that he might be able to, um, satisfy people that it would not be, uh. A bunch of radicals taking

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over the city or whatever, um, one of the arguments I think against it was that they were going to be subject to some committee of unknown people and, and all that, um, and, uh, my, my father who had retired as, as postmaster was, uh, was one

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of the people who. Uh, Mayor Davis, um. Appointed to the committee, Charles Blackmore and now on the Missouri Supreme Court and I can't remember. I think probably Herman Johnson. Um, in any event, uh, the, the committee itself didn't have to do very much work once it,

00:34:10.610 - 00:34:31.790

uh, once the ordinance passed because, uh, it, it, as far as I could see it went into effect without, uh, causing, uh, much of a stir. No. Listening to you, I was wondering time frame, uh, how does this, where does this fit in the Supreme Court's

00:34:31.790 - 00:34:50.560

decisions and Congress's actions on civil rights. It did, it did. Uh, things in the country were moving, uh, sort of at the same pace, I would say. Uh, you're, you're right to have thought of that. Uh, it seems to me that, uh, um. The, the civil

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rights movement, this was, uh, now moving into the Kennedy years and, uh, uh, sit-ins and that sort of thing were occurring in the, in the South, uh, so it, uh, I, I suppose it was natural, uh, people were thinking about these things and, uh, uh, and

00:35:07.830 - 00:35:29.810

there, there was a, a consistency, uh, on a, on a time level, uh, and that, uh, uh, actually worked, uh, to, uh, provided this with, uh. A lucky break in 1968 when we had faced another problem. Then people wanted uh uh it was a fair, a

00:35:29.810 - 00:35:50.610

fair housing ordinance that was being proposed at the same time that that one was going through that legislation was going through Congress. And uh again uh uh housing was controversial and, and again there were uh uh petitions out and uh, uh, enough petitions to force a

00:35:50.620 - 00:36:16.179

a vote on uh on the uh on the ordinance, um, and. The night before or the, the night that, uh, Martin Luther King was, uh, was killed, uh, I was, uh, speaking for the ordinance, uh, the, the election campaign was on, um. And uh At a

00:36:16.179 - 00:36:38.050

church on In the Westport area. That's when we heard about uh Martin Luther King being shot. Well, the, the, the timing, uh. It, it, it could have created a A bad situa. Well, obviously it, it did. I mean, there were, we had some riots in Kansas

00:36:38.050 - 00:36:57.010

City, but, um, uh, this seemed just an awful time to have, uh, an election on this subject, uh, and, uh, and so there was a, a meeting in the mayor's office. This is again, Mayor Davis, Bob Lyons, who my law partner and I had been working

00:36:57.010 - 00:37:24.590

on. Ordinance, the campaign and so forth. And, uh, we were in the mayor's office. It was, uh, uh, you know, 1215 people. And uh At that time we suggested that There would be a way to avoid that election by repealing the ordinance that had been passed

00:37:25.010 - 00:37:41.360

and adopting. An ordinance with the somewhat different provisions that would be consistent with the federal law so that we would coordinate with the federal law and from that standpoint it would make there was there was some good reason to do it so that there wouldn't be

00:37:41.360 - 00:38:01.810

conflicting provisions. It would also have the advantage that you'd have a new. A new ordinance and we would not be faced with an election uh and uh beyond that, uh, because of the very tense situation it was decided to pass it as an emer emergency ordinance

00:38:01.810 - 00:38:18.639

uh. Uh, which was not subject to a referendum that was not challenged in the courts. I had, we might have, there might, we might have faced a problem if the if the emergency provision had been challenged in the courts, but it, it could be that the,

00:38:18.659 - 00:38:43.080

uh, the opponents at that time really thought it was best not to start, uh, petitions and ask for another election under those circumstances. I'm wondering, uh, uh, the circumstances you're talking about surrounding the events following the assassination of Martin Luther King Junior, uh. What more can

00:38:43.080 - 00:39:06.209

you say perhaps about the general atmosphere in Kansas City at that time. The perspective that you were, it seemed to me I was pretty remote. I mean, I was personally remote from, you know, the, the. The burning and so forth and our city didn't, didn't have

00:39:06.209 - 00:39:25.790

this experience I guess that what Detroit and Washington and, uh, had, but, uh, but it was bad enough, um, and, uh. My, I, I had another partner of mine was, uh, on the police board and I think president of the police board, Joe Kelly. So he,

00:39:25.969 - 00:39:50.649

uh, he had, uh, he had, you know, responsibilities for trying to Keep things quiet. I, I think I can remember uh. A call, I, I believe it was from Herman Johnson about how tense things were in, in, in, in the area that, that, and I, I

00:39:50.649 - 00:40:05.120

guess he was calling me because of Joe Kelly and I, I, I really, uh, um, I really don't, it was not, it was not anything very dramatic other than a telephone call and, and, uh, I, I was, uh, I was kind of, you know, not, not,

00:40:05.250 - 00:40:23.000

I was removed from that situation. All I knew is what I read in the paper. Were there any discussions, casual discussions, uh, I'm curious, just since he was your, your partner, uh, about issues that they were dealing with on the board, such as the police trying

00:40:23.000 - 00:40:44.790

to, uh, as I recall, one of the issues was having them take these hard helmets off because they looked so imposing and threatening and other issues that might have helped improve police-community relations. Were there any uh. You recall Conversations or issues that uh. come up. I,

00:40:44.949 - 00:41:01.850

I don't, uh, I really can't think of anything worth, uh. Uh, worth, worth telling you about, uh, Joe was kind of, uh, independent guy. He was a good friend of mine, but I, I, I don't know that he, uh, uh, probably would have, uh, wanted any

00:41:01.850 - 00:41:15.010

advice, uh, from me, uh, and things were pretty tense. He was, uh, he and the, and the, you know, the police were, were under, uh, uh, a lot of, uh, a lot of pressure. I don't think that, uh, uh, I, I don't, I can't think of

00:41:15.010 - 00:41:42.219

anything worth, worth telling you about. Who was Clarence Kelly was Clarence Kelly was police chief and Joe, Joe Kelly was the, the president of the, of the board, yeah. Um, You mentioned uh Iis Davis, um. What do you remember about his, uh, perhaps meetings where you

00:41:42.219 - 00:42:10.100

were present or gatherings, uh, at that time where you were present? Do you remember what his. Attitudes to her or. Well, of course he's, uh, one of our outstanding, uh. Citizens and uh. Uh, he, uh, Has always been a My, my knowledge, my image of him

00:42:10.100 - 00:42:30.929

was always a, a man of, uh, of, of good sense and calm and, uh, and, uh, uh. I suppose, I suppose, in his own way, he's very cautious, but I think, but at the same time progressive and trying to, uh, accomplish things. Uh, I, I, I

00:42:30.929 - 00:42:55.810

don't know that I, uh. Can give any, uh, particularly colorful description of him or, or I can remember any particular event. Um Beyond that time and and circumstances. Um, you've been involved in a number of other things. I know that, uh, you mentioned already the, the,

00:42:55.820 - 00:43:16.510

uh, National Council of Christians and Jews and, uh, the Jewish Community Relations Bureau. I believe you have been a part of that, um. Instead of commission for a couple of terms, um. In what ways did those, did your involvement with those, anyone or a number of

00:43:16.510 - 00:43:37.260

those organizations, um, do you feel looking back now contribute to, um, Kansas City, the changes that were made in Kansas City or have been made for, for the good in your, your opinion? Well, um, I, uh, I think in my. I, I think I, I'd have

00:43:37.260 - 00:43:57.500

to say I can't think of very much to, to brag about. Uh, there, there was a time, uh, that thing where, where, uh. There was a change in the in the in the civil rights, uh, civil rights issues. Where, um, uh, I think there was some

00:43:57.500 - 00:44:21.030

feeling that that the the black community was strong enough and kind of want to do things on their own and uh. Uh, Also there was a sense of, of uh. Of, uh, completion of having done what could be done from a, a legal standpoint, which I

00:44:21.030 - 00:44:43.159

guess was, uh, you know, more. Uh, the kind of thing I was qualified for. And So in the beginning, I would say around the late 60s. Uh, I, my connections were, were more of my connections with that, with the, the civil rights movement and so forth

00:44:43.159 - 00:45:07.909

was, uh, somewhat. Became somewhat limited and and I think that was typical uh. People, uh, uh, white liberals, uh, frequently talked about, uh, that sort of, uh, that sort of, uh, uh, of a development, that kind of a. Uh diminution of of activity and Uh, and,

00:45:08.030 - 00:45:28.979

and for the, and while I, I had some officers and that kind of thing, uh, with the Jewish Community Relations Bureau and, uh, uh, later the American Jewish Congress, um. Uh, I, um, I, I, I, I must say I, those were kind of quiet years like

00:45:29.280 - 00:45:47.370

if, if there'd been some. Particular issues to work on. I, you know, I, I guess I'd be able to talk more about it. I, I don't think there was very much uh. Accomplishment over at least in the interracial issues and, and uh I don't know, I

00:45:47.370 - 00:46:11.540

can't really think of any organized activity on more parochial issues of the, you know, Jewish concern and so forth in say the 10 year period from 68 to 78. When there was um more, more, uh, I suppose public activity though and and which uh which did

00:46:11.540 - 00:46:31.860

bring about some notable change. I'm curious because you were involved and, and uh others from the Jewish community were involved. I'm wondering if I can take a little uh different slant here a minute. Uh, what support, um, if any, did you have either individually or uh.

00:46:32.939 - 00:46:53.120

As uh as part of a community of people with a, with an ethnic and religious, uh, center to it. Um, what support did you have for your involvement? Uh, I'm thinking of things like sermons you may have heard that were lending support for change or conversations

00:46:53.120 - 00:47:17.870

with, uh, lay leaders of the congregation or the rabbi or any rabbi in town perhaps, um, or even your own, your own. Your own theological beliefs. Justice and so forth that might come out of the. Jewish tradition. I'm wondering if that. Something I might ask you.

00:47:19.300 - 00:47:46.870

Too well. Um, I was on the, I was on the temple board for a few years also, um, although my My, my connections have been rather limited lately, but Uh, the, um, Rabbi Meyerberg, uh, who was the rabbi of, of congregation Benauda, where my family was

00:47:46.870 - 00:48:09.760

affiliated, uh, until 1960. Was, uh, uh, was, uh, well, he was aging by 1960, uh, of course he has a. A great reputation, uh, in as a civic leader in fighting the Pendergast machine and that sort of thing, uh, but on intergroup, uh, relations, uh, I,

00:48:09.810 - 00:48:27.570

I would say he was more of an example of, uh, you know, a person of goodwill rather than any kind of a leader. Uh, he was born in North Carolina, and, and I, uh, I think he was, uh, a bit, uh, uh. A bit Well, his,

00:48:27.689 - 00:48:43.290

uh, his, uh, his thinking was not, uh, was not on the, you know, on the edge of, uh, of, of, uh, creating, uh, change, but he was definitely a person of very good will, and, and I think was, uh, was, well, uh, was well liked, uh.

00:48:44.129 - 00:49:12.709

You know, throughout the city and various, various groups in the city. He was succeeded by Rabbi Silverman and uh Silverman was a more traditional uh uh liberal rabbi. Uh he was, you know, a liberal on on uh On, uh, intergroup, uh, on intergroup issues and, uh,

00:49:12.830 - 00:49:38.320

as was Rabbi Margole, uh, at Congregation, uh, Beth Shalom, and, and they were very supportive, uh. And with the organizations in the, in the congregation, the social justice Committee of the congregation and um. And there was a, a general, a general support, I think, for, uh.

00:49:39.209 - 00:50:00.600

For, uh, progress in, in, in civil rights. Uh, during the period when there was a, uh, great activity, uh. Uh, things like the Fair Housing Committee, uh, I think all the, they were collecting names for the paper at one point and, and of course, uh, all

00:50:00.600 - 00:50:24.000

the. The rabbis names and so forth would have been in the sign up on these things. He, he. Helpful did you feel that was for your own work and your own thinking or, or was yours? Based on your, your own background and education. I'm just wondering

00:50:24.000 - 00:50:41.610

how, how influential that was for you too. There's another. Well, it was, it was very, it was very supportive and I, I suppose. You know, whatever you do, you'd like, like to think that there are people with you. And so, uh, from that standpoint, uh, it

00:50:41.610 - 00:50:58.290

was very supportive. I, I never, uh, uh, perhaps this sounds as though I, I, uh, conceive myself as being a great civil rights leader in Kansas City. I, I really, I really don't. I, I think I've, I've, uh, tried to be helpful, uh, uh, when I

00:50:58.290 - 00:51:22.010

could, and, uh, and I've been interested in issues, um, and, uh. But I, I don't think I've been way out in front on things. But you have been involved in helping helping make some changes. Um, you were, uh, uh, appointed to the school desegregation committee, is

00:51:22.010 - 00:51:42.780

that correct, of the school board? How did you happen to be selected for that? You know, my, uh. Maybe this was a congregational appointment and it was not at the beginning. I kind of came in at the end, um, I think there was someone who was

00:51:42.780 - 00:52:03.189

appointed and then, uh, I don't know they were, they were unable to complete the work and, and, uh, uh, so I, I came in, I came in rather, uh, rather late, um. Uh, on that, on that organization which was, I think, stimulated by trouble that the,

00:52:03.199 - 00:52:24.209

uh, school district was having with, uh, uh, the, uh, what was in the health education welfare, uh, uh, there were, there were hearings, uh, about whether the city was doing what I mean the school district was doing what it. was living up to its responsibilities and

00:52:24.209 - 00:52:46.370

federal funds were in question and the like. What do you, what, um, do you remember any of the major points of discussion or issues that that were discussed while you were on the, on the committee? Well, it was a. It was, uh, as, as I remember

00:52:46.370 - 00:53:03.709

it, and, and, uh, it's amazing how you can forget issues over 10 or 12 years, but, uh, um, but I, I think it was, uh, how much of a, uh, how much of a, of a desegregation program was called for in the Kansas City area, how

00:53:03.709 - 00:53:32.179

much, uh, in the Kansas City district, uh, how much, uh. Change in school district lines, uh, uh, uh. Cross bussing and so forth, uh, within the district, uh, should be attempted and. Really, uh, Um, uh, uh, my, my, my, I had a basic problem, uh, in

00:53:32.179 - 00:53:52.219

that I, I did not feel that in the Kansas City district there was potential for, uh, a great deal of, uh, of improvement because of the very high, uh, minority, uh, uh, minority attendance at the schools, uh, and, uh, I was hopeful that, uh, we'd have

00:53:52.219 - 00:54:13.129

a, you know. What was referred to as a metropolitan solution, uh, or that or that there would be some. Uh, something could be done about moving out of the, uh, out of the Kansas City district school lines, uh, uh, I. I, it, it may not be

00:54:13.129 - 00:54:34.080

fair, but I, my impression at least is that, that Professor Freilich, uh, of the, uh, the law school, UMPC Law School, was, uh. Uh, told us on the, on the human rights commission of the, we're still on uh of the of the city that um that

00:54:34.080 - 00:54:55.399

anything that was done. With in the Kansas school district to uh push for further integration was going to have a uh uh was going to have a a counterproductive effect uh in that it would uh cause uh white flight that uh you you're gonna have a

00:54:55.399 - 00:55:22.570

black district and uh. And that, uh, uh, What the effort should be should be to uh uh Go very slow and to to uh keep uh as much uh uh as much uh. Of a white student attendance as you could, uh, not frighten the parents and

00:55:22.600 - 00:55:41.260

and the like, um, and I, I, I must say I was I was somewhat, uh, somewhat attracted toward that, uh, toward that position I did at least I did not think we should do anything uh very, uh, extreme that would frighten people, and I, I think

00:55:41.260 - 00:55:59.824

some. Plans came out for changing the lines here, changing the lines there that did, uh, that did, uh, uh, frighten some, uh, some people. So I, I, I suppose, uh, the that committee, uh, or that, uh, the task force, uh, uh, to the extent that I

00:55:59.824 - 00:56:26.389

expressed myself, uh, uh, thought of me as a. As on the pretty conservative side, uh. But I, I was, and I guess I was, uh, but I was. My objective was to do as much as we could without doing harm, uh, which was difficult. Um, are

00:56:26.389 - 00:56:46.669

there any other, uh, uh, thoughts about your, your life during this period, uh, that, uh, maybe I over on the intergroup issues, um, and I don't think, I think you've, uh, you've pulled out about everything, uh, I, I, uh, I spoke for, uh, the, uh, Equal

00:56:46.669 - 00:57:06.290

Rights Amendment. I got into that, uh. Um, When, when did you do this? This is in the, this is in the. Oh, about 1973 or 1974, I, I met, I met with a couple of state senators. It was a matter of trying to persuade, uh, uh,

00:57:06.530 - 00:57:26.000

persuade state senators, although let's see, I, I guess there was a. Uh, there was, there was some kind of a, uh. Governmental women's group or something that uh where where I uh uh where I spoke about the the legal issues and the connection with the amendment

00:57:26.540 - 00:57:48.639

um I um I I again I'm I must say I guess I was somewhat more interested or intrigued by the the legal issues than the uh uh than um. Uh I, I, I did not. I, I don't suppose I thought the amendment was going to, uh,

00:57:49.179 - 00:58:11.719

um, cure all the problems of the world, um, and, um, privately at least I. I told uh various women who were interested in the in the in the Equal Rights Amendment, including my wife uh that um that I thought that. It depended so much on the

00:58:11.719 - 00:58:33.969

Supreme Court and that almost as much could be done with Uh, with the Supreme Court under the 14th Amendment is, uh, would be accomplished with the, uh, Equal Rights Amendment depending on how, how things were, were interpreted. Uh, the, it's kind of ironic because the amendment

00:58:33.969 - 00:58:58.459

came just after the Supreme Court had for the first time said that, uh, that women's, that women had a right to protection under the, uh, uh, 14th Amendment, uh. The case is Reid against Reed, which said that. An Idaho, an Idaho statute that that favored selecting

00:58:58.459 - 00:59:23.010

men for um. For administration of the states, uh, was unconstitutional that, uh, that, uh, the government could not engage in in stereotyping that, uh, some theory that, uh, men know about business and can handle, uh, uh, property and, uh, and in preference, uh, in preference to

00:59:23.010 - 00:59:45.500

women. Uh, so that decision came down and it seemed to me that the exploit exploiting that, that issue in the courts, uh, probably had as much potential as the amendment although I thought the amendment had a kind of a symbolic value. Well, we've been, we run

00:59:45.500 - 01:00:03.439

out of time. We've been a little, almost an hour. I'm not sure. Yeah, I think, I think maybe you've, you've run out of, uh, of, uh, activities that I can mention. I'm sure there's much more. I was, I don't have one for now, but I. I

01:00:03.439 - 01:00:23.959

think there's always a tomorrow because I think there's a tendency to Try to do everything at once and that's a little difficult. Well, why don't we uh say uh. But this will do it for today anyway and uh oh yeah you have I actually have one

01:00:23.959 - 01:00:46.300

question and um. Are we off? We're still going. I have, uh, he has all the debriefs there too. Uh, you are a district judge. Now, how, I'm not gonna ask you about any case. How does your membership or your position on the court? On the bench.

01:00:47.399 - 01:01:10.350

Govern your activities in civil rights activity, is there a conflict? I had to, uh, yes, I had to, uh, uh, drop, uh, membership in all kinds of organizations, uh, including Civil liberties Union, uh, and, and other organizations that would be more obvious based on what we've

01:01:10.350 - 01:01:33.290

talked about, uh. And uh Uh, Uh, I, um. I have to call the law as I see it, uh, uh, and, and also the facts as I see it. We do have a lot of, uh, a lot of litigation on this sort of, uh, area, uh,

01:01:34.070 - 01:01:59.040

employment discrimination claims, uh, we get them all the time, and, uh, there's a potential for most of what we've talked about, uh, to be, to be in court, uh, and, uh. I, I don't, uh. I don't think the activities of what I viewed um. Really create

01:01:59.040 - 01:02:18.229

a A problem for me and, uh, if anything, uh, if anything, maybe it's a good thing, um. The Carter administration would have thought it was a good thing, uh, but, um, uh, but, uh, it seems to me it's, uh, uh, with the grain of the way

01:02:18.229 - 01:02:36.949

of the law, uh, and, and, and some people who have done nothing or have, uh, you know, just, uh, questioned, uh, change, uh, if they're on the bench, uh, it may be difficult to, uh, uh, you know, to, to enforce the law, uh.