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Peterson, executive director of the Black Archives of Mid-America. Today is September 28th, 1976. The time is 9:36 a.m. I'm interviewing Doctor Odell, excuse me, Doctor A Odell Thurman of the Kansas City School Board. Good morning, Doctor Thurman. Good morning. First of all, uh, Doctor Thurman, where

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were you, uh, no, give me your full name. Arthur Odell Thurman. All right, um, where are you from? You mean where was I born? Where were you born? I was born in the state of Mississippi. Uh, in a cotton patch somewhere around Greenwood. Mhm. And, um,

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at an early age, my parents moved to Missouri, Saint Louis, Missouri to be what is your birthday? August 8th, 1913. Um, um, well, you were, you were born in a, born in an agricultural community? Yes, that was a cotton south. OK. And now, um, um, do

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you have any recollections of that area at the time? Very, very little. Very little. Can you tell me anything? Not very much. I, I only have a recollection that, I was there. That, uh, we lived in, uh, a small, Tenant farmer type clapboard house. Um-hum. Uh,

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the type of which can still be seen along the roadways, uh, of Alabama and Georgia and parts of Mississippi. Um-hum. And, uh, that, uh, it was up on stilts. Um-hum. And my brother and I used to play under the house. Uh, how many brothers and sisters

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do you have? I have, I had one brother, now dead. What's his name? Walter G. Thurman. When was your mother and father's name? My father was Albert Gentry Thurman. My mother was Mary Alice Stanford. That was her maiden name. The. And um, I have three sisters.

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All three sisters live. In an area between Kansas City and Chillicothe, Missouri. Um-hum. Yeah. Uh, do you have any recollection at all of your great grandparents? I, I knew a grand. Oh, your, your grandparents. I knew a grandfather. Um-hum. And I, uh, on either side, on

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both my father's side and my mother's side, but I never, uh, I had a living relationship with them. I never knew a grandmother. Uh, my grandfather on my father's side. You know, I don't, I don't remember his name. I never had that much association with him.

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OK. He was a, um, he was a Baptist minister. He was, was your father a minister? My father is still a minister. Oh, OK. Um, he's retired now. And he retired from presiding elder of, uh, the Northwest Missouri, uh, Conference AME Church. Where? Um, from Chillicothe

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to, uh, Joplin and places of that sort in a broad geographic area. Well, well, roughly then, how old were you when you first came to Kansas City? Oh, when I came to Kansas City, I was, um, about 12 or 13. Well, what, what, what were you

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between the two areas? Slowly from one little church, uh, parish to another between St. Louis, moving west toward Kansas City. And you did spend some time in St. Louis? Oh, yes. I, I started school in St. Louis. I lived in the environment of, uh, the St.

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Louis area. Oh. Probably 8 years. And do you know the school that you attended in Saint Louis? Surely. I first started the school in Saint Louis at the old Louverture School at Jefferson and Pat Pan Street. Uh-huh. Do you remember any of the instructors or the

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principal's name? Uh, I can't forget him. He used to use a rattan on me very frequently. Oh. his name was, uh, Mr. Gordon. Mr. Gordon. Mr. Gordon. Don't remember his first name. He was a very fair man in complexion and had, uh, white hair and a

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white goatee. We used to call him, uh, I think with some degree of fondness, uh, Billy Goat. Billy go, but he was a stern, uh, school administrator and ran, ran a good school. And you were at that school for how long? Uh, through the, uh, 4th

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grade, I'd say. Then where did you go? Then my dad bought a, uh, piece of land. In St. Louis County. Uh, in a place called Elmwood Park. Um-hum. And, um, we moved out there. He built a tar paper covered, uh, uh, house for us, dug a

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well. And I thought that was the best water that, uh, the Lord ever made that came out of that, that well. I remember he also built a coal house, a coal shed he called it. My brother and I used to pick up coal on the railroad

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track that wasn't too far away and uh we'd filled that thing up for our winter fuel. And the school was a little two-room thing across the meadow from where we lived. What was the name? Haven't the slightest idea. All I the teacher's name? There was a

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Mrs. Cole, and a, who was the teaching principal and a Mrs. Sherman. Uh, who it turned out when she came to teach at that school. I have Then a girl who went to school with my father back in Mississippi. So this made for a very nice

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relationship. Who was your best then? I presume that, uh, my brother was about my best buddy. Is that right? Yeah. How much older were you and he or vice versa? He was, uh, 4 years older than I. And uh passed away. A year ago. Uh, you

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know, uh, growing up in a, uh, preacher's home, uh, as a preacher's kid in those days, one grew up pretty much in a puritanical. Situation. Um-hum. Uh, You, you didn't do much away from home. You didn't build a close associations with others outside the home such

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that you, uh, Develop strong buddy relationships with anybody. You went where you were sent and you came back before dark or within the time that was set for you. Um. And, uh, of course, in that same sense, as we moved, staying maybe two years in, uh,

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various communities, uh, at one church location or another. One never really had time to build up a lifelong, uh, friendships of one sort and so most of the people before I came to came to Kansas City. Uh, are only vague memories that I think about once

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in a while and, uh, wonder where is somebody whose name that I can recall. When was your mother born? Uh. Mama was pretty much a, a, a mother and a housewife. Um-hum. And she's still alive? Yes. What's her name again? Um, Alice. OK. Alice. OK. Oh,

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pretty old now. Papa's Papa's about 90. Will be 91 next October and momma's about 86. Um, Uh, so what were the circumstances of you all coming on to Kansas City? Uh, the bishop, uh, Appointed my father to, um, Uh, pastor, Gilbert Memorial, AME Church. In the

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old Leeds district. And that was 1926. 1926. 1926. Do you remember that, that particular period? Very well. All right, tell me about Leeds Dunbar at that particular time, or is that, is that, is that what it is? It was Leagues Dunbar, right? Um, it was just

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Leeds. The school was called Dunbar School. OK. Called Dunbar School. That was the first school I went, I attended. Um-hum. When I came to Kansas City. And um uh incidentally, When I became a principal in the Kansas City school, it was the first school that I

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was principal of. Dunbar. Dunbar School. The same building in the same location. What was the hill? Did you have, uh, running water and all this type of thing up there? Did your family have that or what? In, uh, uh, here in Kansas City. Back in 2016.

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Uh-huh. Yeah, we had, uh, we lived on 35th Street. So your father was making a pretty substantial, uh, income as a preacher in that case, right? No. Uh, you see, one must understand that in those early years of, uh, and I suspect it's true today. That,

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uh, uh, ministers were provided with a parsonage. What the church did was to uh provide a place for the preacher and his family to live. They would, uh, uh, provide the cost of, uh, moving from one location to another. That is the receiving church paid for

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the moving. So, our home was prepared, was provided by The, uh, by the church. In the in the guise of a parsonage, and we had lots of land around it, considerable land around it. It was Decent. It had inside plumbing and, uh, so on. But as

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far as, uh, family income, one was almost at the mercy. Of, uh, the congregation, no matter how small it was. Um-hum. Uh, I can remember in those days prior to that and during, That, uh, Very often, Papa uh receives sacks of apples and chickens and And

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produce of of other sorts in season, uh. As the major part of, uh, what he got. Uh, for having, um, given service to the church. Um-hum. And that would come on Sundays. Uh, if I were to give you the baseline of it, uh, I'm of the

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opinion that as a minister, my father never made more than $3600 a year in his life as far as Income from being a minister is concerned. Did he, what else did he do? Uh, in the, uh, in our early years when we were around Saint Louis.

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Uh, my father, Worked the packing house. Uh, he worked in construction, and it was in those construction years, uh, I think that he earned, uh, the greatest amount of money. I were you, uh, were you continually, were you able to continually be involved in your own

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education I guess? Uh, At what point do you mean? Well, at the point of moving into Kansas City, did you have to work yourself or anything? I always worked, uh, I can remember, I can remember starting work when I was about 6 years of age. Uh,

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Doing little chores around the Kroger's grocery store. Uh, down on the corner from, uh, where we lived in Saint Louis and, uh, later when I was some, uh, 7 or 8 years of age. Um, Going out and scrubbing the white steps of, uh, some of the,

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uh, row houses. Um-hum. That, uh, persons in the next couple of blocks over from us. Um-hum. Um, lived in. And, um, Who were very, very kind, uh, to, uh, give me little chores to do, and, um, Give me coffee and give me, uh, cookies, uh, when

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the weather, the weather was a little cold, put my feet in the oven to warm them up and that kind of thing. Oh. Very nice relationship and so I always worked, so. Was there, uh, was Dunbar school on the hill when you, I mean, on, in

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Leeds when you, when you were there? Yes, it was. That was Dunbar school? Dunbar school. Same, same position, just new facility? Uh, no. Dunbar school, Uh, of those days was on, um, I suspect we'd say, if I can get my direction right, East of where the

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new building, where the new building now is. Same lot east. There was some kind of an exchange of, uh, of land. The park had some land. Um-hum. The school district owned the, uh, the, uh, school land and, um, you may recall now that the park has

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a, has a, uh, park department has a park across Thirty-fifth Street. Uh-huh. There. Uh-huh. About a block from the school. Um-hum. Well, the park department, they exchanged, uh, The land that they had where the new building is with the school district for that land that is

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across the road, immediately across the road, uh. What was your house? Um, down the hill on Thirty-fifth Street, uh, heading toward, toward, uh, White Avenue. OK. We were pretty close to topping. Did you know, uh, Holly, Harold Holiday scene? Uh, yes, I knew Harold. Did you

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know of him or did you ever run with him or anything? Uh, no. Mostly knew of him. He was more nearly the, the age of my older sister. Uh-huh. So, we did not have much association. OK. Um, uh, where did you, uh, finish high school? Finished

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high school in, uh, Liberty, Missouri, and then again in Saint Joseph, Missouri. What high school in Liberty did you go to? Um, there was only one for blacks. OK. And that was called the Garrison High School. Were you cognizant of the, of the fact that it

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was an all black school and it was an all black situation at that particular time? Very much so. What made you cognizant of this? Well, Uh, all my life I've been very much, I've been very much aware of the discrimination in our, in our society. You

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see, it's highly impossible, improbable I'd say that any, uh, black youngster, uh, in a family that came out of the South of those days. Uh, would not be very, very keenly aware of the, um, Discrimination against blacks for one reason, if for nothing else. That, um,

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the old folks always, uh, congregated. Together for social purposes in the living room or in the kitchen around the stove or somewhere and we youngsters were always close by and many, many of the stories that are told of life, were told of life that they, that

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they, uh, uh, suffered really. Um-hum. Um, before getting out of the South. Especially to your father, I guess, when he was a pastor. Uh, My dad was not, did not come out of, uh, Mississippi as a minister. He came out under circumstances that I didn't learn

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about until maybe 6 or 7 years ago. Are they too terrible for you to talk about? I think not. Um. My father's a very brave man. Uh He, um, was one of those black men who would take No, uh, abuse, all the whites. He had, uh,

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he was working on the railroad, as I understand it, at that time as a switchman. And he had a section boss. Who was white. And as my dad tells it, He came home, uh, uh, one evening. And, uh, as he approached the house, he saw this,

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uh, uh, white boss of his, uh, standing across the road and calling, trying to entice my mother to come out and apparently he had been there trying to, uh, coax her out for quite some time. As my father tells it to me, That he, um, We

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Uh, uh, uh, told this guy he'd better go on about his business, which he did, and the next morning, He, uh, went into the, uh, section shed, Where this person was. Closed and locked the door. Took out his knife. and threatened. To, uh, really do damage

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to this fellow, if ever again, uh, he made any approaches to my mother. This meant in those days that, um, he had to be out of town. Before sunrise. And he hopped, hopped a freight train and headed out. The whole family? No, just him. Just my

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father. My mother joined him later. And about, um, he went, he worked his way. Uh, uh, on the road. To East St. Louis. Um-hum. And then moved over into Saint Louis, and it's my understanding that within, uh, 14 months, he had earned enough to send for

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the rest of us. That was my mother, my brother and myself. Um-hum. Uh, to come to, uh, Saint Louis, which we did. Do you, do, would you consider your father, uh, an activist. Uh, after coming to Kansas City at all? Yes, my father was always very

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much involved in, uh, Social causes. Do you remember, uh, him saying anything or, Uh, about Garvey coming to, uh, to lead to the leaves there? No. No. No. Um, I was not aware if Marcus Garvey came to, uh, The leads AR came to Kansas City. Um,

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on the same subject of, of this discrimination thing, Hos, I, uh, and my awareness of it. Um, in one of the moves from St. Louis heading this way, my father was assigned to pastor a church in Farmington, Missouri. And I can remember at Christmas time or

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Thanksgiving time, one of the holiday seasons. That hooded Ku Klux Klan. Uh, persons came to our house. Out of, I guess, some kind of, uh, misguided sense of, uh, Benevolence. Anyway, they wanted to give, My father and his family some baskets. Of food, etc. for Christmas.

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And I remember being very, very proud of my father. As he stood in the doorway, confronted them. Thanked them and told them he's very sorry he could not accept anything from them. Turn them off. They were not, they were not, uh, Uh, what they were trying

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to portray themselves to be, and he had had too much experience with them in the South, having observed lynchings and, uh, Etc. and at the hands of, uh, many such people. He could not bring himself to pretend that he could accept anything. Did you know that

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one day you would attend a university? Uh, I really didn't, Horace, um, In Farmington, Missouri, my brother, who was a bit older than I. Was too old to go to elementary school. And there was no high school provided for blacks. This was true in a great

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many. Towns in our state and in other states. And uh he was sent by my parents to uh Western University. That used to be in Quindara, Kansas, across the river here. Uh, he couldn't cut it and they couldn't support it. Mhm. There was just no money.

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Yes. So, my brother had to come, come back. I had no notion that I was going to even go to high school, We did get to Kansas City. I did go to high school. What year did you graduate from high school? Um, 31. That's 32. 31

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at Liberty 32. At, uh, Saint, at Bartlett High School in Saint Joseph's. So, you have two high school diplomas. Right. Right on. And uh. What was the highest, go, go ahead. And um it was at uh it was while I was attending school, high school in

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Liberty that I found out about a college. Uh, Professor Gay, who still lives, a very old man. Uh, they're liberty. Was the, uh, principal and, uh, the instructor of all our high school courses, in fact, and, uh, He was a very learned man. He, um, learned

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it to the, in the classical sense and that he was a tutor in Greek. With 4 students at uh William Jewell Colleges, the Greek language or philosophy, the Greek language and um, he was quite fluent in Latin too. Well, Professor Gay talked with uh us a

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great deal about, uh, his experiences at college. It was first that I learned about a fraternity. That would be. I suspect that I Uh, that a lot of others like myself as I've assessed it, um, got a spark of it, um. For going to, for wanting

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to go to college as a result of our relationship with him and I would be willing to wager that, uh, percentage wise that more youngsters who graduated from that school under Doctor under Professor Gaze. Uh, uh, tutelage, went to college and from many other small place

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of its other people like who for instance. Oh, there was, um, Uh, Grigsby, Rothwell Grigsby, who is, uh, principal of one of our schools here in Kansas City principal of Dunbar. Very light complected. Right. He fair complected. Right. He was, uh, yes, he was at Dunbar.

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The Stark's boys. That was Freddie Starks who, uh, Um, is in, is a I don't know if that Freddie is a principal or not in in the Saint Louis school system, but he's in the, he's in the school system. And, uh, his brother. Um, Who is

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a, uh, real estate broker and a very successful one, Lee Daniels Stark. In the Chicago area and has been for many years. And, um, I, it, I just can't think of, uh, Number of others at this time, but out of, uh, um, that school came a

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person by the name of, uh, Stevenson, who was an outstanding football coach at, uh, Tuskegee Institute many years ago. What kind of a person was Odell Thurman through high school? I mean, what Uh, pretty much like, uh, Most healthy, active, uh, uh, young people. I think,

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um, he was sufficiently studious. I had some notion of where he wanted to go. Do you ever think about preaching? No. I, I never thought about preaching my, Mother thought about it for me and, uh, Thought for sure that I would, uh, Be a minister, following

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in her father's footsteps, but her observations were based on, uh, her conclusion that I was, uh, physically and personality wise, so very much like my father. That's. Um-hum. I think that's what she, you know. Were you versed in the Bible? Went to church, uh, an awful

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lot. What was your favorite, favorite verse? I guess, uh. As I looked at the world around me, even at a young age was, and Jesus wept. were you in the choir? Yes. What voice? I sang a tenor in the choir and they insisted upon me singing

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tenor in the choir even after my voice had changed to a baritone. You're still gonna be tenor. Yeah. I still had to be tough. But, uh, I emerged, uh, uh, escaped, shall I say. Were, were you a ladies' man at that particular point in life, you

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think? I, um, I liked girls and was liked by girls. Let's, let's put it that way. Were you athletic at all? Yeah. I, I played, uh, football, both high school and college. Um-hum. Um, ran some track. Never highly outstanding. Uh, any, any, uh, able to hold

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my own, Mhm. What happened your senior year in high school? I, I graduated. Um-hum. That's about, that's about the, uh, size of it. But you see, what happened, um, Uh, is that we were right in the midst of a depression, And this business of, uh, of

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going to, uh, going to college created something of a problem. Maybe my determination in Uh, continuing and working toward an education was that. Couldn't go to college, so I went back to high school. Couldn't go to college. I couldn't go to college, so I went back

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to high school. What was it, what, what was this? My parents by this time had, uh, moved to, um, Saint I had moved to Saint Joseph. I had, um, The gun working. With the, uh, lawyer's fraternity house. In the lawyer's fraternity house connected with the university.

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Of Kansas City. Uh, Hillary Bush was the, uh, was studying law. At that time, and Hillary Bush, you may remember, was, um, uh, lieutenant governor of Missouri. And, uh, his parents lived in Liberty, and he gave me a job. I used to work for him in

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their home, and he gave me a job and I went, came back and I went to Lincoln High School. Uh, for, uh, maybe a semester while working at the Delta Theta Phi. But, but how did you go back to high school after graduating? Uh, I graduated

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from Garrison High School in Liberty, Missouri. Well, what I'm saying is at that particular time, you could, if after you graduated from high school, you could go back if you wanted to. Right. What was the policy in regards to that? Oh, I, uh, don't know if

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there was a policy that I was aware of. I just know that I presented myself and, got enrolled. Uh-huh. Did, had the, uh, tell me some more about the depression in regards to your family. Uh, we were always, we were always poor, that is, we didn't

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have, uh, money. Uh, but, uh, and as a result of that, we were. More than two weeks. Never, never without a job more than two weeks. Uh, we, we, we hustled. We didn't, we wanted to work and we did. I remember learning a lesson, though, once,

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uh, here in Kansas City. Uh, And I took a job, uh. Working around the home of, uh, a wealthy family out south. I guess I was about, 1514 or 15. Um-hum. And, uh, I enjoyed working out in the yard and doing those kinds of things. And

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I remember one day that the lady of the house, Came to me and, uh, said, uh, she wanted me to clean up the basement. Well, she kept the cat in the basement and the cat had really messed that, messed that place up. For some reason or

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another. I refuse to do it. That meant that I was, I lost that job. Um-hum. I lost that job. But I never made that mistake again. It was quickly, uh, revealed to me in my own conclusions. But I was without a job for about a week.

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That, uh, There were those persons who had work that they wanted done and had the money to pay for having it done. I didn't have any money, but I wanted to work. And so if I were going to work and get somebody, I got to do

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what the person who hired me wanted me to do. And so from that point on, I did just that. Um-hum. The next job I got was, uh, here at 14th and Walnut. I think I, uh, either washed cars. I washed cars a while. And, um, and

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I also would, uh, Uh, pass out Bills to, uh, as an advertising. stunt for the owner of the garage. How old were you then? Uh, probably 1515. Where were you, uh, the breakout of World War? Right here. I was teaching in Kansas City, All right. How

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long have you taught in the school system? I mean, how long did you teach in the school system? I, uh, I've been with the Kansas City school system for 38 years. How long did you teach? I talked At RT Cole's school. For 5 years from, uh,

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38 when I came. To, uh, 42. When I left and went into USO work, uh, with the Army Navy YMCA as a senior. Club director. Were you ever in the military itself? Never. Never. How did you, uh, prevent that? Well, I, um, I think As I

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recall, I, I was on an AIDS cusp. And, um, that I wasn't called up, For age reasons, um, at the outset. And, uh, and I think going into USO work. Uh, may have, um, caused some delay for a year and they had a way of changing

00:33:38.680 - 00:34:02.290

the age group that they would call in and I sort of kept just a little ahead of it. But I like to think that I, uh, Made a significant contribution. Um, in the war through my services of, uh, Air Force, Army, and naval personnel. In my,

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uh, USO administration. Did you, uh, find a, um, uh, did you find a need to join the military, a personal need? I had no, I had no strong desire to go. I had no feeling of need whatever. I had a feeling of need to, um, Be

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supportive, to be loyal and do what I could in the capacities that I did work. Was, uh, the community that you lived in in Saint Joe segregated? Oh, yes. OK. Um, what year and to what institution, uh, uh, uh, um, university did you first attend or

00:34:47.070 - 00:35:10.919

college did you first attend? Well, Uh, it was while my parents were living in Saint Joseph. And I had, uh, gone from Kansas City, gone to school there, uh, that last semester. And, um, I wanted to get started in college. Told you about, I told you

00:35:10.919 - 00:35:42.370

about, uh, The, uh, Western University. Over here in Quindae, Kansas. It was a church school. Uh, an AME church. And, um, I wanted to go. I had, um, A neighbor, friend, Guy Taylor Junior's mother. Um, She had gone to Western the year before. We wanted to

00:35:42.370 - 00:36:02.790

go. She didn't have any way to get there. I didn't have any way to get there. I had no money for two issues. And, um, I scrapped up $3.03 dollars $3 and, uh, Papa tied our, tied our trunks, both our trunks to his, uh, uh, to

00:36:02.790 - 00:36:21.629

the car. One on the bumper, I think, one on the front bumper, one on the back bumper somehow or another. And, uh, I put gas in the car, worth. And He drove us up here to, uh, To, uh, Quindaro. All right, uh, so when you got

00:36:21.629 - 00:36:40.600

there, you had 50 cents. That, that's right. I had 50 cents when I, when I got there. But, um, And that was about October. Took that long to scrape up. $3. So, so, um, we got enrolled it tight, wasn't it? Oh, it was. And because it

00:36:40.600 - 00:37:03.520

was so late in the, uh, in the first semester, I couldn't enroll in straight college work. I enrolled in, Commercial work, uh, spin and penmanship and typing and, uh. And shorthand. Uh-huh. And, uh, some other things that one could plug into at any, any point in

00:37:03.520 - 00:37:19.469

time. So, that first semester, I, uh, worked with those things, never took it really seriously because that wasn't what I wanted to do. What did you want to do? I wanted to, I, I, I knew I was going to be a school teacher. And I wanted

00:37:19.469 - 00:37:42.620

to get on with the business of, uh, building the academic credits, uh, necessary, uh, to, uh. Why did you want to be a school teacher? Uh, About the, uh, avenues that were open, about the only avenues that were open for certain. For. Young blacks coming. Um,

00:37:42.939 - 00:38:04.639

or to be a preacher. To be a teacher could go off if he could afford it or find the uh avenue to become a doctor or a lawyer, but I saw an awful lot of lawyers around, uh, uh, selling crisis magazines. In those days and um

00:38:04.860 - 00:38:27.850

with with school districts as segregated as they were and uh with uh Perhaps one of my most familiar models. Of, um, of accomplishment being teachers. He pointed me in that direction. Now, this was only the 3rd. Only the third ambition that I had, I had once

00:38:27.850 - 00:38:54.270

wanted to be a pharmacist. Um, when I was, uh, very young and worked in a, in a drugstore, Uh, in Saint Louis, and, uh, once. Carried away with, uh, the exploits of, uh, Who was the famous lawyer in the Scopes case, Clarence Darrow carried away with,

00:38:54.370 - 00:39:09.770

uh, exploits of Clarence Darrow, thought I wanted to be a lawyer. Those were the fantasies that, uh, many people go through as they try to find out where they want to go. Backing up one point, what kind of car did your father have? It was an

00:39:09.770 - 00:39:37.719

old Roosevelt. Roosevelt, it was. It was one of the Mormon lines. Oh, yeah, yeah. OK, um, um, so you did enter into Western University, you're right. And, um, and Western built a, built a good life, um. Uh, for academia. I, um, I was, uh, a part

00:39:37.719 - 00:39:55.629

of the singing group that went out on the road to raise money. Was your baritone then or what? I'm a baritone OK now, of course, uh, to raise money for the university. Um-hum. I, uh. Was that, uh, the same significance perhaps as the, the fifth jubilee

00:39:55.629 - 00:40:15.689

singing? Precisely. Um-hum. Precisely. Was Westerland, uh, was, was this a predominantly black college? It was entirely black. OK, OK. And um religious oriented though, right? Yes, in that, uh, to the degree that they had chapel and uh everybody was expected to go to chapel on whatever

00:40:15.689 - 00:40:38.679

day and time that that was. And uh I was uh. I, I was given a job, uh, hauling coal. We had the, the, the trucks that we had were old, um, Fals that had been used during World War One and were considered surplus and some institutions

00:40:39.199 - 00:41:00.520

then were, were, uh, eligible for surplus, government surplus just as institutions are eligible for government surplus today. And, uh, these things had, they were tall lorries like you've probably seen in old movies and all the panels were out of the sides, but, um, they were just

00:41:00.520 - 00:41:22.540

like windows in there. And we would drive from Western University over to the uh railroad spur, which is somewhere around Osage there in Kansas, uh, and, uh. Those, uh, gondolas hold 52 tons of coal. Um. And, um, We would, uh, get down in there and shovel

00:41:22.540 - 00:41:44.850

the coal out of the gondola into the truck, haul it back to the, uh, Power plant at Western. Shove it off the truck. Into the, uh, coal shed, go back trip after trip and we prided ourselves in being able to, to, uh, unload 52 tons of

00:41:44.850 - 00:42:03.669

coal a day, 2 of us working. In, uh, uh, in driving one of these old. How much you pay for that? Well, we did the, the interesting thing about it, I never really knew, but, uh, I did know that, uh, Uh, at the end of the

00:42:03.669 - 00:42:27.810

semester, I was given some cash money after my tuition was paid, you see. And um that was really a long stride forward. Yeah. And then I remember that. Yeah. Yeah, they allowed me, they allowed me, uh, one, my last year there, it was a two year

00:42:27.810 - 00:42:48.310

stint, my last year there. To, uh Um, wash cars. There were that many cars there that you could wash cars? Oh, yes. Uh, the instructors had cars. Um-hum. And, um, I'm doing it as a commercial deal, as a business. Um-hum. Us, and the school allowed me

00:42:48.310 - 00:43:07.080

to use the, uh, garage. Which was one of the vocational. Units that they had, uh, the water, the chamois, the boots, and I think I was charging about 50 cents, uh, for washing the car. That's pretty good. In those days. And, uh, I got so doggone

00:43:07.080 - 00:43:33.050

much business on a Sunday and a Saturday until I had to take an apartment. Did you? Yeah, right. Were you still hot and cold too? Uh, No, by this time, By this time, uh, I had, uh, Join the, Southern Jubilee Singers and, uh, went out on

00:43:33.050 - 00:43:56.750

Chautauqua circuits. And we, uh, played fairs and conventions. Do you have photographs of that, of any of that? I doubt it. OK. Um, so, What, what year did you graduate from undergraduate school? Uh, 1936. From? No, from Western University. I went to Lincoln University in Jefferson

00:43:56.750 - 00:44:18.310

City in 1934. 0, you transferred. Right. All right, um, Lincoln University, tell me about it. Um, That was a real, that was a real step up. I, in fact, went to, uh, I had played football for two years at, uh, at, uh, West Western and, uh,

00:44:18.320 - 00:44:41.449

I was offered a football scholarship. Uh, at Lincoln University. I guess because Um, we had often played them. Um-hum. Uh, In, in exchanges either up here or down there. And I guess the coach thought that I could contribute something as an end. You're an end, yeah.

00:44:42.409 - 00:45:00.389

So I went down there, but an interesting thing happened the summer before going, Uh, we're still in a depression. I, um, my brother was working at the packing house in, uh, Saint Joseph, and I needed to work. So, he told me to come on up there

00:45:00.389 - 00:45:19.459

and I went and he really did get me a job. Um, he told me what to do. He said, now, now buy yourself a pair of, uh, of, uh, these white overalls and get your boots and, uh, go out there Monday morning and you stand. Out

00:45:19.459 - 00:45:34.790

there in that crowd close to the front, says, and have your boots slung over your shoulder. And you look like you look like you are a packing house man. I followed that advice and honest to goodness, I got hired. Excuse me. 1st, 1st told you how

00:45:34.790 - 00:45:54.899

to get in. The first thing. Well, I was making $52.5 an hour, um, picking up feet and, uh, feet up. Picking up feet and finally, uh, I was shifted over to the, to the, uh, automatic heist, lowering the cattle for skinning. And, uh, I made pretty

00:45:54.899 - 00:46:05.979

good money that, that year. I was able to go down and pay. So, you dropped out an entire year? No, I didn't. I just worked that summer. Oh, just that summer. That summer. So, you went back to school style almost this time. I, I went back,

00:46:06.100 - 00:46:22.625

went back, went to pay my, pay my tuition for the first semester. Well, the scholarship didn't, didn't pay your tuition, Yeah. Well, I, in working at the packing house, they have these, uh, they had these, uh, uh, cold air downdrafts. Um-hum. And I caught bronchitis. Um-hum.

00:46:22.784 - 00:46:42.030

So by the time I got down to Lincoln University, I, I, uh, was in no condition to play. I couldn't run the length of the field. So, I, I had to drop football. But I stayed in Lincoln. Yes, but I was given an NYA job. Some

00:46:42.030 - 00:47:05.139

national youth job of some sort, um. And worked, uh, as assistant in the, in the, uh, You see, as a junior, I worked as assistant in the uh history. In political science department. Who was over the department? Uh, Doctor Sherman Savage, W W. Sherman Savage. Who

00:47:05.139 - 00:47:21.959

was president of the university at that time? Doctor Florence. Uh-huh. What was it in? Foster Hall. You did? Um-hum. Did you, did you pledge a fraternity while you were in college? Yeah. Which one? Alphas. Alpha Phi Alpha? Um-hum. Um, did you ever participate in anything else?

00:47:22.669 - 00:47:43.439

Uh, while in college? Yeah, at, uh, Western University, I was, I was president of what they call the college league there, which is the equivalent of, uh, of, uh, student council. The student, student government body. And I, and um at Lincoln University, I was president of

00:47:43.439 - 00:48:09.290

the History Club. down there and participated in uh Many of the campus activities. As it were. Um-hum. In my, in my senior year, I was, uh, I was a student assistant, uh, in the Department of Education. And in each of these uh uh work experiences. Uh,

00:48:09.370 - 00:48:30.209

on campus I was working in the area of a major and I majored in history and political science as well as in education, and, um, Lincoln University was a very Tough school. Um, as an undergrad, I think that the faculty felt that it had to somehow,

00:48:30.590 - 00:48:49.870

um, Convey the notion that it was providing a quality education and it just wasn't gonna turn people out, turn them around. Had your parents moved to Kansas City yet? No. No, they have not. Who, who was your, your base of operation there? My base of operation

00:48:49.870 - 00:49:21.530

was in Kansas City. I myself lived in Kansas City. How long? Um, At one period or another. What, what address can you, uh, remember? Well, um, 2447, 2547 Tracy. Um-hum. I lived there. And, uh, That's about. Have you, have you met your wife at this point?

00:49:21.689 - 00:49:38.219

Yes. You have? Yeah, I was married. OK. Um, you weren't married to Mrs. Thurman at that time? Who, who's been married to that now? Uh, Marie Lillard. All right, what year did you graduate from Lincoln University in? 1936. Then what did you do? Then I, um,

00:49:39.000 - 00:49:59.810

Got a, got a job with the assistance of, uh, Ernest Boone, who was then the Supervisor of colored schools, is that what they called it? That was his title. Supervisor of Negro schools, they probably call it, of Negro schools. And for whom I used to drive,

00:50:00.199 - 00:50:16.840

uh, when he would go on inspection trips around around the state. Can you remember the the name of those schools that were affiliated there? Yeah, um, the schools, all the black schools in the state of Missouri. Oh, OK. Including here in Kansas City. Was that including

00:50:16.840 - 00:50:38.419

Lincoln University? Um, no, he, he worked out of an office that was located on the Lincoln University campus. Uh, this was before they allowed that position to move into offices down at the statehouse. And, um, uh, he, he assisted me in getting a job as principal

00:50:38.419 - 00:50:57.139

of Harrison High School, they call it, at Tipton, Missouri, where I taught my first two years. At Tipton, Missouri. Tipton, Missouri. Uh, what size classes did you have there? Pretty much like the little thing that I attended out in, uh, Saint Louis County we had we

00:50:57.139 - 00:51:27.889

had uh 3 rooms. The name of the school? 3, Harrison High School. Um, I I thought All of the, uh, high school. Subjects The first year I was down there, Mr. McCrary's, James McCrary's father-in-law. Uh, taught first grade through. Uh, 4th or something of that sort.

00:51:31.600 - 00:52:01.570

Geography, agriculture, track, basketball. No, no, no assistance. Not that first year. OK. But an interesting thing, interesting thing happened. I discovered that, uh, Tipton, just like, uh, other small communities, had never provided an opportunity for a high school for completion for black youngsters. Now under the

00:52:01.570 - 00:52:25.060

law, They were required to have provided it themselves or to have uh paid the tuition and the transportation of uh black students to the nearest uh district that did have high school. For. So, um, this has been going on, I guess forever. So I went out

00:52:25.060 - 00:52:43.760

and I went out and Went out into the community and, uh, I beat the bushes and invited everybody, no matter what his age was, who wanted to finish high school, come on back and finish and went to the superintendent of school, told him that he had

00:52:43.760 - 00:53:05.020

to make provision. What's his name? His name was Bud Rel. Right. At that time, to, um, uh, uh, to make provision for these kids to, um, uh, Finish high school. So he sent to the State Department and invited the inspector to come down and, um, I

00:53:05.080 - 00:53:33.719

employed my wife, who was a high school graduate. Uh, to join the staff. Uh, so that, uh, we'd have accredited people. And they, uh, gave a rating to the school and we graduated my second year, the 1st and only. Graduating class at Harrison High School. has

00:53:33.719 - 00:53:54.469

had the year that I, next year after I left. That was stopped. How many was in that class? Let's see, we may have had as many as 8. Bill Webb, who is, uh, one of the, uh, Uh, chief engineers at Central High School, I think, was

00:53:54.469 - 00:54:20.649

in that class, uh. Um, McCrary's, McCrary's, uh, wife is in that class, uh, Bill Lewis, who held every track record in the state of Missouri and whom I entered into the decathlon in 1937 at KU Relays. Um, he's in that class, he's out. Uh, has his

00:54:20.649 - 00:54:42.639

doctorate and teaching at the University of Illinois. And, uh, The others are unimportant, but there was about, there were about 88 in that class. When did you go to get your master's? I, uh, started, uh, working on the master's, uh, The same year that I came

00:54:42.639 - 00:55:06.750

into this system, 19, the summer of 1938, went to the University of Minnesota and did that for two or three summers. And then, um, Uh, with the war. I found it more profitable to, uh, work at Lake City digging, uh, Bell holes for plumbing that was

00:55:06.750 - 00:55:27.969

clung in out there and making some money. And I, I, I worked in, worked in, uh, war related construction for about two summers. The second summer, It was the 3rd summer, the second, the second and 3rd summer, I took the, took the carpenter's examination out here,

00:55:28.370 - 00:55:50.050

got a card and, uh, did carpentry work at, uh, helped building the DeSoto plant, helped building the, uh, North American bomber, uh, plant. Over here and then I went into USO work, left the system for a couple of years, went into USO work. And uh, I

00:55:50.050 - 00:56:10.699

ended up in Stockton, California and enrolled in school out there at the University of the Pacific. It was called College of the Pacific at that time. And, uh, completed my master's in History and Political Science there. I wrote a thesis on, uh, the Negro in California

00:56:10.699 - 00:56:36.000

before 1890 and then published it this year in there. In their, uh, Pacific historian, it, uh, was in 3 different issues, 3 parts of it. Um, Let me see. So, you, after you get your master's, you come back to Kansas City? Yes. All right. And then

00:56:36.000 - 00:56:59.010

what happened? 19, 1945. Um, soon after the war was over. Uh, I had opportunities to stay with USO, stay on the West Coast or go overseas, uh, some of their clubs, but, uh, I felt my destiny was back here in the education system. And uh so

00:56:59.010 - 00:57:17.699

I communicated with uh Mr. CS Robinson who was then Uh, assistant superintendent of personnel, and I told him I want it back. You told me, let me know, just let me know when you. We'll be returning. I did. And I got back, I closed out the

00:57:17.699 - 00:57:40.100

club and got back in, in Kansas City. In December of, uh, 445. He knew I was born. Is that right? I was born in November, you came back in December of '45. Um, he, uh, put me on as a, a visiting teacher. And wanted me to

00:57:40.100 - 00:57:58.590

go to work immediately and I told him I need a little time to go see my parents and, and, uh, why not start after the holidays, which he allowed. And, uh, from, uh, January until school was out in uh June, as it were in those days,

00:57:59.090 - 00:58:27.050

uh, I I worked at the most, Uh, productive. Meaningful, uh, uh, work that I think I had ever done up to that time in education. I got a chance to see. How How well children do. Coming from, from some of the problem situations that they had

00:58:27.389 - 00:58:51.719

and, uh, helped to Shape of philosophy, I think for me that was to uh help me considerably. In administering education programs for kids or anywhere else I would be in a classroom situation, I have respect for them. So, uh, Um, the following August, I was appointed

00:58:51.719 - 00:59:08.040

principal of, uh, Dunbar school. Um-hum. Uh, where I taught half time and took care of the administrative chores the other half time. Uh, hold, hold on a second. Did you say that, uh, at one time the school year was only from January to June? No, I

00:59:08.040 - 00:59:25.320

did not. When did, that's when I came back that, to the city. To Kansas City public schools. I came back in December and went to work in, uh, in January. What I, what I was trying to imply is that in those days we started school in

00:59:25.320 - 00:59:44.800

September and we didn't let school out until June as opposed to the way we do it now. We start schools in August and, uh, get out in May, you see. I think I was trying to be facetious about that because I somehow um I think that

00:59:45.550 - 01:00:05.149

In reducing the amount of time that, uh, Youngsters have opportunity to be involved in organized education is a little bit agrarian, much like the country schools that I used to go and I'm not at all sure that The way we have it, it serves the, uh,

01:00:05.350 - 01:00:23.580

uh, the urban. of uh youngsters. Uh, uh, how did you feel about going back to Dunbar? Elated. And you're a principal, right? Yes. I thought it was one of, I thought, When you were asked, what now? And when I was asked if I would take that

01:00:23.580 - 01:00:40.850

school, I lost my appetite completely. I turned right around, went back upstairs and went to bed. Where were you living then? Uh, in the Westport area, out on Forty-Second Street Terrace. Was that a black area at that time? Yes. It was? Yeah. OK. Uh, why did

01:00:40.850 - 01:01:03.000

it, uh, make you sick? I mean, because you liked Dunbar so much? No, because, because of the excitement, the excitement over, um, this kind of an opportunity being offered me. Was that an opportunity? Yes. Wendell Phillips School, Uh, was the largest, In enrollment of elementary schools

01:01:03.000 - 01:01:26.219

in Kansas City at that time and was the most prestigious of the black schools in, in Kansas City. Mr. Cox had been there for 31 years. And to have the opportunity to Take over the principalship. Of that, of that school. Um. Was really a big step

01:01:26.219 - 01:02:00.310

up. I couldn't even take it. Couldn't take it on. How long, how long, how long were you at Wyton Phillips? From 1940. I was, let's see, from 1947, To, um, 1954. When, uh, 1955, January 1955. When we opened up, when I opened up the new Phyllis

01:02:00.310 - 01:02:20.100

Wheatley School over on 24th and Agnes. Um-hum, um-hum. You opened that school? Yes. Uh, what, what year did you do that? January the 18th, 1955. OK. Uh, tell me some of the circumstances of that, when you, uh, you having, getting that opportunity. Um, once more I

01:02:20.100 - 01:02:37.870

was asked if I would take it. Um-hum. You may recall, uh, Horace, that, uh, I've heard talk about. The overcrowdedness that we had at the Booker Washington school over there. Was this the baby, baby war boom, the, the, the, the, the war baby boom? Yeah, I

01:02:37.870 - 01:03:00.189

was part of that. Uh, and the shifting in, in population also. Um. And what is now home school was, uh, the Benton School, which was white. Um, conditions became so crowded at Booker Washington until, um, uh, they were having, they were starting at 7 o'clock in

01:03:00.189 - 01:03:23.699

the morning and going to 4:30 in the afternoon on split shifts. I remember that song. Well, and the people demonstrated, people demonstrated for, uh, The relief, for relief from this, agitating for their youngsters, that's part of their youngsters to be sent to Bentley School, which was

01:03:23.879 - 01:03:47.429

taboo kind of thing in the thinking. Of our society at that time. Uh, because legally in the state of Missouri, whites and blacks didn't go to school together. So till 1954, they have just now, no, no, no, they have just the Supreme Court decision in 1954

01:03:47.649 - 01:04:09.850

outlawing segregated schools for purposes of education in the United States. Um, so they had begun building Phyllis Wheatley School. A, um, Took a couple of years to build that school. It was ready. It would not have been, it was not to be ready until January of

01:04:09.850 - 01:04:31.389

'55. It opened the second semester, opened it for the second semester. Um, it was, um, a school like no other that we had in Kansas City. They were still building for segregation. Um, We have Delano School and had had for many years for crippled children and

01:04:31.459 - 01:04:56.520

so on. And, but black children had never had any provisions made for those kinds of, uh, of, uh, problem condition. So Phillip Wheatley School was built to house both the, uh, so-called normal youngster and the youngster who was handicapped. And we had provisions in there for

01:04:56.520 - 01:05:20.479

the orthopedically handicapped kids in wheelchairs, kids on crutches, kids in braces and treatment rooms for them. We had a beautiful, uh, um, hydrotherapy. Oh. It never was used, though, was it? Never was. He was very low. And, um, Um, partially sighted, hard of hearing, uh, mentally

01:05:20.479 - 01:05:46.659

retarded. All in there and uh structurally. Uh, built to accommodate. And, um, It was a it was a rare opportunity. Did you have white teachers on either one of these? Completely black students. Completely black. All schools were completely black or completely white. In those days with

01:05:46.659 - 01:06:11.760

one exception, and that exception was But, uh, all of the supervising staff who worked out of the central office, whether it was in, uh, music or in art or in reading assistance and, uh, whatever, were all white. Mhm. No, no black skin, nothing. So, when, when

01:06:11.760 - 01:06:40.969

did you get your first opportunity to come downtown? I had, uh, attended University of Kansas. And, uh, I had gotten a doctorate, And, uh, I continued to work uh as principal of Phyllis Wheatley School. Uh, Or C. 11 years. Let's see. Was I there 11 years,

01:06:40.979 - 01:07:02.979

maybe, 55 to 66, yes. You got your doctorate, what year then? '57. And what was your doctorate in? In, um, educational administration. And your doctor's thesis was on what? Um doctoral thesis? Administering, administering, that's, that's a master's thesis. The, the master's thesis was what now? The

01:07:02.979 - 01:07:26.780

negro in California before 1890. Uh-huh. That was history. And your PhD thesis? Is, uh, I better read it. The operational problems of the principal involved in administering a program of integration in elementary schools in four Midwestern cities of 100,000 population and above, with implications for other

01:07:26.780 - 01:07:49.580

cities of similar size. For what university was this? University of Kansas. OK, and this got your PhD? That's the doctoral dissertation. OK, um, Now, we've gone from one extreme to the other, you know, we've come from an impoverished, uh, Ao Delta. To, uh, working in the

01:07:49.580 - 01:08:13.250

packing houses. Now we've got a PhD. You had, uh, a great deal of responsibility in being the principal of the number one black school in Kansas City, then the principal of the newest, uh, uh, let's say, uh, the therapy-oriented black school in Kansas City, physical, physical

01:08:13.250 - 01:08:32.189

therapy oriented school in black Kansas City. Now we've got a PhD. What kind of a man is is Doctor Odell Thurman at that particular point? Well, Looking at the calendar. Uh, to the day of retirement. For one thing, and I think I, uh I mean, you're

01:08:32.189 - 01:09:03.140

looking, you're looking forward to retirement? Oh, yes. OK, great. Oh. And, um, I think I'm not much different. Then, uh, I have been, uh, most of my mature life, my grown up life. Professionally Kids are number one. In my concern. Professionally in relationship to that, people,

01:09:03.509 - 01:09:25.970

the parents of uh These children are, and I guess maybe. I, uh, can convince myself that what I'm saying is so because I think I have, uh, provided good program, good leadership and good support. What kind of peer did you have with that? At where? At

01:09:25.970 - 01:09:50.479

that particular time, you, you, you obtained your PhD. Uh, it was, uh, Um, Pretty much a, uh, close, Group that had much the same kind of interests that I had. Um, there were a number of us who carpooled. To, uh, go to KU to, to do,

01:09:50.490 - 01:10:11.240

uh, graduate work in the carpool with you, uh, Mr. John Howell, who was principal of, uh, Booker T. Washington at the time that Phyllis Wheatley was opened and later of Greenwood School, now deceased, uh, Doctor Fields. Uh, who is now interim superintendent for the school district,

01:10:11.609 - 01:10:35.160

Miss Lydian Arm, who, uh, went on to get her specialist, uh, degree, who is, uh, now a supervisor in, uh, elementary education at the central office, uh, Dave, uh, I, I don't remember David's last name. He was a principal in the system before his death. All

01:10:35.160 - 01:10:59.490

right, backing up, did you know Doctor Fields while you were in the St. Louis area? No, I did not. Um-hum. Um, um, What are your responsibilities at this point? At this point I'm acting assistant superintendent for accountability. Research and resource development. There is uh going to

01:10:59.490 - 01:11:24.330

the board. On Tuesday. Uh, a recommendation for me to assume broader responsibilities. Um, doing what I am now doing, but also taking over as assistant to Dr. Fields. On an interim basis. Are you looking forward to that position? Some of the responsibilities for, Um, that the

01:11:24.330 - 01:11:46.790

associate superintendent formerly. Are you looking forward to that responsibility? Uh, yes, I am. Yes, I am. I think, um, it will provide, uh, me an opportunity that I have been away from for several years now, and that is for administering some operating programs, some part of

01:11:46.790 - 01:12:10.750

the instructional program of the district. Uh, this I have missed because what I've dealt with has largely been things and stuff. Supportive to program to be sure but uh not really in that where the action. Uh, it's. to the heat of the battle. Right, uh, it

01:12:10.750 - 01:12:32.919

will not be, it will not be as close to it as the, uh, Uh, as the classroom or the school building as such, but, um, it will deal with those programs that uh have to do. With an across the board K-12 kind of support service. More

01:12:32.919 - 01:12:59.419

than likely, the, um, As I've schemed it out. Uh, they get special education. Department, the uh pupil Services Department and uh as well as the accountability research. Uh, the finding of monies and uh so on for the new. Uh, All right, we're gonna get into the

01:12:59.419 - 01:13:19.879

philosophical area for a second, OK? I, I won't hold you up too much longer. Um, Is Doctor Phil's gonna get the job. Who can say? I, I can only point out at this time that is doing the job. And I think he's doing it very well.

01:13:20.310 - 01:13:43.069

Um-hum. He's been able to, Put, put the pieces back together with good staff support that uh were lying around scattered a year ago. He is moving full steam ahead now, um, under the, uh, action of the board, giving him full authority and holding him accountable for.

01:13:48.209 - 01:14:07.270

What, what new, uh, directions do you see the school board going in the next two years, let's say. The school board or the district? School district. I, the direction is, is up. Uh, as far as the, the quality of our delivery system is concerned, uh, Horace,

01:14:07.790 - 01:14:31.770

I think that, uh, we, you've heard, uh, a lot of, Lip service being given to this thing called accountability. Uh-huh. Accountability, uh, I think, Means something like this in the thinking of people. They want more bang for their buck. They, they, they want to see evidence

01:14:31.770 - 01:14:51.540

that uh every kid is working up to his optimum and developing those coping skills that are important. This is an important goal to us. Now we realistically as educators. Um, know that we can help every child work up to its optimum, but we cannot, uh, uh,

01:14:51.799 - 01:15:10.620

say every child is gonna work up to a same level all along. I'm not gonna do that. Uh, one final question, um, you have been with the school district, I think, for 32 years, right? Well, 38, 38 years. Uh, with, uh, two years out that I

01:15:10.620 - 01:15:30.810

did take to go to, uh, work with service related, uh, jobs. Uh-huh. You say that, um, um, you're looking forward to retirement, but certainly 32 years would definitely qualify you for retirement, wouldn't it? Oh, I'm satisfied the, uh, The calendar requirements for, for retirement as far

01:15:30.810 - 01:15:47.140

as years of service is concerned. Um-hum. But, um, I'm saying that my time is not nearly as long. Uh, as it has been. Do you have children right now? I have no children. You have no children. Uh, you're in your second marriage now, right? Yes. All

01:15:47.140 - 01:15:56.870

right. And what's your wife's name? Leona Thurman. OK, uh, Doctor Thurman, I would like to thank you very much for this interview and, um, good luck to you. Thank you very much.