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This is Edward Scott Black Archives of Mid America, um. Interviewing for the Kansas Missouri Public Library. And I'm interviewing Mr. Ahmed Aladdin. The woodwind instructor and also instructor of the L&M course which is literature and materials for the Charlie Parker Memorial Center. Uh, the date is

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July 27th, 1976. The place is the Charlie Parker Memorial Center. Um Mr. Aladdin, when where were you born? I was born right here in Kansas City. Really do this as a matter of fact, uh. This month I had a birthday on the 24th. Last Saturday Raised

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uh in Kansas City. So you need you can see. Uh, could you give me just a little bit of information? Family background Probably Grand. Uh, go as far as back as uh. My grandmother on my mother's side. Fanny's moving. He was out of Kentucky. Right. Because

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we didn't, uh, wasn't too close, really close as a family, you know, I was, uh, you know, kind of outside the family, although I was in it, you know, I didn't take part in it, you understand what I mean? OK, my mother. Um, I'm the 10th.

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Of the 10 children, you know, see, uh, 5 boys and 5 girls. 10. My father I didn't know that he was, he was my father. I was a little older, you know. As a matter of fact, I, I, I entered, uh, grade school at WW Yeats

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with the alias, you know, Sonny White. You know, on my reservation and then when I went from uh WW Yeats to uh Charles Sumner uh elementary school. As Richard White. And then I found out my father's name was Clark. You know, so it, it's kind of,

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you know, funny, you know, and so I guess I was named after my mother and, and she was called Eva, Eva White. She was a spiritualist, you know, she belonged to the spiritual church. Holy ghost might call us you know we believe in shout. Uh, readings,

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as they call them on Friday night, used to have readings and it cost I think $1.50 if you want to read. I used to go there at 10, you know, I used to go. I, I was quite fascinated, you know, about the, uh, movements of the,

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of the, I, I, I used to love to see them here but what they would call shout, you know. A buking the devil or something like that, you know. So, uh, I had a quite colorful childhood. I, I was introduced to, uh, to music, uh, at

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a very early age because when I was staying on 10th and 9th, I met. Uh, Jay McShan, who was one of the top groups, you know, back in the uh late 30s and early 40s, maybe 3 or 4 doors down from me, you know, and at

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that time the great Charlie Parker was He was in the same band. He was in that band and they were rehearsing right down the street from me. So, uh, my older brother, I was only maybe 4 or 5 years old and my older brother would take

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me down. You know and uh. I didn't learn until maybe when I was in my early uh teens that that was the Jay McSand band or even that Johnny Parker was was playing in the band so I knew I was just listening to some people play

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but I wasn't aware at that time who I was really listening to. So, but I do recall the, the incident. And I was, and I, I wanted to be a drummer, you know, because I think my first instrument was a drum, you know, everybody thought I

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was gonna be a drummer, you know, but, uh, as I grew older. I think it was at this uh at the uh the 2nd. Eton school I att here in Kansas City but Charles Sumner that put him in the school used to be at uh 22nd

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in Charlotte, you know, but it's since been going down. I think it's a hospital or something on that site now, uh, it was a guy in the neighborhood named named Eugene Mitchell, and he, he bought a saxophone. So I begged my mother to go buy me

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one. Uh, I think about the age of 12 or 13 when I was, when I was introduced to the saxophone. Were you, uh, fascinated at all? Saxophone With your brother going with you? No, I was fascinated by the drummer. Mm Do you think that that. Grab

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some lemons Uh, but that no sense uh has an effect on the. Uh, acquiring the samo. Well, no, but it was an incentive because I was. Uh, what you might call, The the religious. Dedicated to music because anything that that I get into I, I'm kind

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of fanatical about it. So I took that information that I received that maybe being on that set as sometimes we did. Or seduce me in a way because I carried it with me. Sometimes I feel pride in, in, in talking about it. Right, you know what

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I mean, right, so, uh, yeah, you know, to, to, to know that I was, was, uh, honored or blessed to be in the presence of Charlie Parker at the age of 5, you know, you know. Quite an effect on me since that he is the greatest

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single uh Direct force upon me as a musician has more than my. Talent such as, such as it is, you know, he was one of the most direct and still is the most heaviest influence upon me that I can remember. He and I, I would say

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2 would be uh the late great John Coltrane. He had a great effect. But none was uh as dynamic as Charlie Parker. Maybe it was that I felt closer to, uh. Charlie Parker bird, you know, I feel closer to him about him being Kansas City and

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me too. Where, uh, what kind of, what kind of uh setting, uh, existing. Yeah Responds to their music. Well, I can only go back uh. To when I began to, to, uh, you know, come on music scene here in Kansas City. Which was, uh, maybe around

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1950. I, I came up on the scene in a in a funny way, uh, in high school I began to play other instruments. I used to ride with every instrument practically in a band class. Uh, as a matter of fact, in, in the marching band, I

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didn't play saxophone at all. I played, uh, euphonium, my brass, which is a, an instrument that would be considered, uh, a brass instrument like a trumpet or a trombone. From that, but, but that was the 1st, 1st I played the uh E flat horn which was

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called a mellow horn, which was also a valve. But it was with the Woodwind family. I played that man then I graduated to the other. And then uh my music instructor got me into. So I could play out in the park with the older men. This

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time I was maybe 140 or 15 years old I was still in high school sophomore. Where was this? Well, I was, uh. He said I was pretty good but I, I didn't give myself exception. I was just Do the best I could, you know, but I

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didn't put in any. Create accomplishments. I was as, as I was kind of naive, you know, I guess to be 15, you know, because I, I still believe, you know. Fairy tales you might say. Oh, that's right. Yeah, Brother Goose, you know, and Dr. Seuss. Right,

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and, uh, so, you know, I noticed that that there wasn't any other 15 year olds. I think, I think the next youngest man that was maybe 30, you know, a little old, so I felt quite out of place and then again I felt, uh, equal. Because,

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uh, at that time, you know, 15 years of age, so they didn't stop me taking over my part as any time they did some of those as, as a matter of fact, I can't ever remember have to take over any any music, you know, I was

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always. Comprehend and decipher and make my own directions. want to be. A 3. Very independent you might say, you know. Oh And from there I began to, uh, move in in other directions. I went, went back to saxophone and I played with, uh, Most of the

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uh prominent local musicians at that time, you know, most of them who have since, uh, you know, passed, you know, like Richard J. Smith, who was secretary of the American Federation of Musicians over 627 for many, many, many years, you know, right. Celeste White, uh, let's

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see, Jay McShane. Willie Rice was one of the. Most unique arrangers, you know, I was singing in the country, you know, he, he deserves to be heard, you know, with his talent, you know, uh, maybe, uh. Wasted if it's not, you know, to preserve, you know,

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and we that that we preserve talent is that we let other people from other, uh, cultures or other areas, you know, uh, play it, make it available to them, you know, that they need the performance. And I played with, uh, I began to play uh shows

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that were coming from out of town. I remember, uh, in my later uh years, you know. I'm going to play saxophone. Jazzy. And to play with the blues artist and they come in, uh, Albert King and, um, and other a few other the uh traveling bands

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so I was had quite an experience at a very early age. Yeah, something I don't wanna miss too but back in the history on on 12th Street there used to be a room called the Art. 12 or 9, well, at the age of maybe 15 or

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16, you know, I used to play in there, but I was playing at that time, uh, baritone saxophone and, uh. With the very director of the Charlie Parker Memorial Foundation, Eddie Baker, he had, he was called the Eddie Baker Band, and we were quite a hit,

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you know, at the art room and at that time they had a Sunday night thing where the joint opened up from 12 to 1:30 or something like that, you know, on a, on a Sunday night for an hour and a half. So we used to play

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for an hour and a half at the art 12 to 1:30, and they would be standing all outside and. You know, kid, man, you know, and make, uh, was, is, is, uh, Mr. Frazer probably the same age as you? No, yeah, I think he's maybe about

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3 or 4 years old, older than I am. I just turned, uh, 42. I think he's around 46, the same year. Right, we were, we were playing things, uh, we were the 2nd, uh, James Moody band we prepare ourselves after the James Moody audiences. Uh, no,

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we didn't have a singing. We, we strictly instrumental, uh, down at the art room I, I think, uh, I recall who's the, uh, um, piano player's organ player's name. Charles can, because he's been in a good time. Uh, no, and that I, I. Do you remember

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associated Johnson the art I have associated with the Blue Room, which was made on 18th it was sale in a in a hotel called the the uh streets Hotel. What is the. 12 12th and 5 you know right on 12th and 5 have a meeting there

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uh. Oh. I remember those were right. Right across the street. It's a um. The art room is on the southwest corner. Maybe that would be part of this. We're getting the two locations. One of the locket rooms is on 12th and Street Hotels on 18th. Yeah

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No. Mhm. I can. It was kind of a show place, you know, he, he had all this, it was a, a supper club, not a supper club, but uh They would preach out of town. He and his team would have a house band and. Yeah, everybody

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that was anybody during the 50s that played the artist. And I a while. Um But that's gonna be during the 50s and the drifters. Uh, all of them, all the Ravens, Sonny Tal. And the Orioles, you know, everybody played the or, you know, so I got

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a chance to play behind some of the top artists of the day at that time, you know, so I got quite a bit of experience, as I say, at a very early age, you know. So I aged quickly because I was, I was in that fast

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company. Uh, what kind of, what would, how would you classify it? Right In the early 50s we were under the dominant influence of uh Charlie Parker. Because his influence nationwide. You've been doing real well. Little w but uh. Charlie Parker. The most I, the most one

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of the moon. But the unique thing about him was his uh. Put as a man and his ability to. It's my teeth in certain things. Because I remember, I think it was a flood in Kansas City during the 50s, I think it was a big flood.

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Well, they had, they had booked the Woody Herman into the auditorium downtown. That bad. Charlie Parker happened to be in Kansas City at the same time. He was working on a new out of 40 Highway called Trudy's Mayfair, and, uh, so some promoter came with the

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idea of teaming Charlie Parker with her band coming, you know, for added attraction, but the flood had other plans, and, uh, the, the, the band showed and Charlie Parker showed the people couldn't seem to get there, you know. You know, and. I was, you know, nervous

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and eager, you know, more chance to hear, you know, Charlie Parker cursing and with and with with Herman's band too. So I was getting tightened up on the bandstand listening and I heard, uh, when time to bring Charlie Park on, everybody moved toward the bandstand, but

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until that time no one was paying but her pay any attention, you know. He put me out there because everything fascinated me as long as it was music, you know, so I, you know, I was in tight all the way. That's when people, you know, they

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announced Charlie Parker and everybody moves up close on the band. I heard what Herman asked him, uh, uh, what do you wanna play bird? I heard him ask him, he said, play what you've been playing. You know, but that didn't mean too much to me until

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a few years later to say that, you know, when a man asks you what you wanna play, you tell them play what they wanna play, you know, I think is that. Independent you because you, you know, you. Can handle it, you know, in other words, you

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know, so now I, I can appreciate, you know, that great of a talent. And that was a great influence on me because I, you know, patted myself to be able to handle any situation. You know, I don't think that I would be, Out of place, you

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know, that I can. Make a decent showing so. Mm. No. What other on. Moon of the people. The music uh set the mood for the people that Well, I learned. In a conversation like this, I would have to go back in time and forward. Give you

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a, a Real realistic answer and a truthful answer. Because of the. See that For a public library. Realistic. It's possible. Let's see, uh, when you speak of moving and people, I have to go back to the knowledge that I gained. Uh, after the 50s, you know,

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to really answer the question. You know, I've learned that music, you know, has a great effect on people by being uh. Major sinuses. That it is the natural A man and that he can control the movement and then you can tell much. Uh Of people's culture

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by the type of of music that they're listening to. So, uh, the era of the 50s was uh. What we might call a very uh creative era. very creative era because at that time you had Charlie Parker, you know, as the main force, and he was

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creative. And, uh, People have a strong sense of following, you know, the lead of entertaining. If they like a particular type of music, they'll try to emulate, imitate one that's producing so they picked up on the habits. Of Charlie Parker, because he was supposed to be,

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uh, The world most famous. No. So dope is quite prevalent. You know, at that time because people begin to take on the characteristics of talking about. And even those that uh he was teaching like Miles Davis or he played with Fat Navarro. All of them, uh,

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at one time, you know, Uh, Max Roach, uh, who brought up under the influence of, uh. Uh, heavy, uh, narcotics. Mhm And a lot of the other musicians, you know, and they thought that. You're saying that, that, that you had to be, you had to be

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had to the very, you know. Is this a rural? Well, I'll see, uh, Uh, among the artists, uh, artistic people and its listeners, the artistic listeners. So, uh, You know, that, it was, it was music to listen to. So people move at a slower pace. Well,

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at that time because you had to slow down and listen. Like I said, you know, everybody was getting high. They did good, so you couldn't do nothing high, but. I know. Right, so, uh, that was the that was the mood of the music and that was

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the mood of the people. Is basically. Definitely There's a drought. You might say Of, uh, Materialistic values, but there was uh you know uh Well, in Entertainment or culture or creative value. Which, which, uh, strengthen the mind. Strengthen the man. In a way But it killed

00:24:55.130 - 00:25:23.839

something in the in the uh in the materialistic spirit and it and it brought people out of balance. They were heavy, you know. But the physical thing and moving and doing something for myself. Good. Desire for advancement was killed not. That's another thing. was Billie Holiday

00:25:23.839 - 00:26:02.489

was She Uh, Billie Holiday played at the Arctic. Uh, during the 50s, you know, uh, she had deteriorated quite a bit. No. I got a chance to, as a matter of fact, please. And Billie Holiday. Is there? Well, What kind of what let me ask you

00:26:02.489 - 00:26:35.369

about. For the holiday, what kind of experience. You recall. I, I remember it being, Very quiet. Preoccupied person. But maybe it's because I had, You know, I heard so much about it, you know, that I, I, I, I figured that she was like, man, I never

00:26:35.369 - 00:27:03.510

tried to approach it. Uh around. On stage, you know, she seemed to be different. So I saw a flare up in anger. The effect of it never, uh, bothered me, you know, at that time. I, I remember now that I laughed at it but it's sitting

00:27:03.510 - 00:27:36.300

in front of me. Because it was the thing to do but. So, I just, Yeah. You know, was he fled up, you know, like But. And see what direction that. A new pianist at that time, who I believe, So. But, uh, he was not doing a

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hard time. You appreciate the date, you know I would never. Play at that time, I wouldn't eating food. And that uh deserved what she told me. there was a a certain amount of growing that he still had to do. And it was very, uh, high point

00:28:13.199 - 00:28:39.280

in my career, you know, I was playing with the, with the Shahid, you know, I heard so much about him, you know. What did the, what is the word? Shahid means. A witness bearer, and they bear witness that there is no God but Allah. Where I

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witness bad. And uh like I said, it had quite of a, a mystic value to me too. But I might be what you might call very. A religious. Because I always. God. You mentioned that. God. I really can. And it shows So I was drafted by

00:29:16.380 - 00:29:50.750

the Chinese from that moment on. Praise be to God. Are you, uh, Did you, did you just, you just play in uh Saint Louis? Yeah. Oh, no, uh, from that time we, uh, I jumped on the circuit. The surgery. And Mr. Blo You signed him as

00:29:50.750 - 00:30:25.859

a PR man. Focus in the center like PR. He was running in and out of Chicago, you know. I think in the year 1968, uh, Because opening It's a lot. It's a little bit. Um-hum. most of this. They opened the Savior's Day in 1968. And uh

00:30:25.939 - 00:30:51.739

a few days before the convention, you know, we received a call. that's Wow, shot me out. We, uh, got to Chicago, got to convince me, it was quite crowded. We receive the VIP treatment. Luke Meyer, you know, went down, it's all at the top of 50.

00:30:53.920 - 00:31:10.739

Open, open restaurants, so we want to get in and out. So he took us down and seated us right up close, you know, to the roster we could look right down on the best of the lot. Quite nice. So we sat sat with the ministers at

00:31:10.739 - 00:31:33.160

that time I forget. And after we we were escorted up there and we were escorted out of the auditorium. I shot over to the slam, you know. Um-hum. That was a hard one. His brain In Chicago But it makes this I'm invited there personally. By the

00:31:33.160 - 00:32:04.310

messenger of Allah, the Honorable Elijah. Oh, so that was Shot out there. He was for days and years. And during that period shortly after that, uh, I met the sun. At that time, uh, I addressed him as, uh, Brother Mohammed. I call it, I can't, I

00:32:04.310 - 00:32:30.420

can never. Remember me calling him by his first name. And then you'll tell me about surgery, Coming. But I can never bring myself to see it. I don't know what it was, I guess it's. Training Spain, yeah. So he was uh uh into music at that

00:32:30.420 - 00:32:48.750

time. Now I found out that he, he is the one that had named the Shahid and he was the son of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. And his brother of of our chief master down to watch. He's also the uh area minister. It's headquarters here in Kansas

00:32:48.750 - 00:33:11.270

City, Mississippi. And I'll tie into it because I'm tying into it all. Right. You know, crazy. Yeah. He's the area minister, the honorable minister Nathaniel Ma. But, but like I said, he was uh. Brother Muhammed to me at that time. To go with the men, the

00:33:11.270 - 00:33:57.150

men of the site. Because I. Maybe maybe we didn't want to be. Days. Hard, hard, hard. Let's talk about it. But uh it paid off for us, you know. bring it. Good state. It's I rest Very, uh, well received, uh, the people of Chicago. We made

00:33:57.150 - 00:34:40.520

a couple of tours at the East Coast and uh. And So, he, uh, Took on a more uh nation. Or a program, uh, concept later on as I should say, Even 70s. Because Brother Luke Mar uh became a minister. I, myself, uh, More to the program.

00:34:46.320 - 00:35:13.830

The name prevailed and we still perform occasionally under, under, under the name Shaied but it wasn't uh So to say still still exist. Do you, um, Do you see the 70s, um. You mentioned earlier that you saw people beginning to come back into the cast. What

00:35:13.830 - 00:36:09.600

do you see as the future for music for itself and cancer? And your future. And try to block a center. As, uh, City. I can see Kansas City as being a music center. Maybe world. room. And as uh a city grows in recognition everything. Of equal

00:36:09.600 - 00:36:45.419

value, so I could see the Charlie Charlie Parker Center by then. One getting world re recognition. I can see that But the part, Uh, the personal part that I would play. And the music I don't think it would be in the, uh, The pain It may

00:36:45.419 - 00:37:40.820

be in the business of. Or I may even play, uh. Maybe do occasionally The studio. I really don't have any Choice of whether I will, dealing with I could possibly make money without even. Dealing with it directly. Like. If they, you know, make it, But, uh,

00:37:40.840 - 00:38:29.219

I can, I can only see success. In the 70s. It. People coming in after it. I can see. And I talked to him. Finances. Success That I could see Maybe it did decline. For the creativity. Because sometimes when, uh, You come to a city to explore

00:38:29.219 - 00:39:03.300

the city for its talent. You get one and you try to manufacture it. You know, what you think is And then everything else in that city tends to follow that same path. So we can't be creative. A monster of a 60. If we had to get

00:39:03.300 - 00:39:31.500

that But I, I with you. You're going to sit down. Um-hum. I, I know that about cancer. Care where you come from, where you going. How come they're talking about changing, huh? Yeah, you know. But, uh, but you never know, but I can only see success

00:39:31.500 - 00:39:55.439

on, on, on, on all levels. Anything that that's connected with entertainment or culture. I can see Any problems. What effect it would take on the people is yet to be seen cause, you know, uh, people are not quite as naive. We did check I can see

00:39:55.439 - 00:40:27.409

another voice that is prevalent in Kansas City, uh, uh, that wasn't there. Uh Doing doing the other areas that uh can kind of balance out this. Exploitation. There, there, there's a band, you know, together. Of minds under under one concept. I know it's in Kansas City,

00:40:27.479 - 00:40:54.679

although they may not. Joan. A particular club or organization. But if that organization's concept of club, uh, way of thinking is strong enough they'll take on that characteristic. You know, although they may be outside kind of a clannish people. You know we all think alike. Hm

00:40:59.030 - 00:41:34.179

But, uh, I think, uh Kansas City would rise, never fall again. Cough. And the, and the pursuit of happiness. Because of uh the force I would say uh. Yes, I. Because the force of Islam is, you know, is, is too great. OK so here. Whatever you

00:41:35.679 - 00:42:17.209

You too. You have uh children and yourself? Right, I have, uh Two children. Within I have. Ahmed 7 year old, 8 year old rather. Then I have your. Good to you. What's your rights. Um, She's a very unique person. What did I tell everybody that I

00:42:17.209 - 00:43:11.250

raised myself. Uh, Rafia Sanna Aladdin. Very beautiful system. However, it's just Um-hum. That's what it is. And what is the. They are, uh, Arabic names they were given to us by. Honey. Uh I understand that it was uh. That a lot of say and be the

00:43:11.250 - 00:43:38.510

one that would be coming. So should be called Amen. For crazed one, so I took it. Great pride in receiving that. Especially for me. I see. Then he gave me Some people pronounce it as I pronounce myself as Aladdin. But I heard, I heard the Arab

00:43:38.510 - 00:44:17.469

call it in. Allowed within. Which is, uh, is, uh, In religion. But the minister says the uh Allah. Uh, a lot. High rank. is. It's a high ranking it is ally with you. So, um, I got a long way to go. I think that uh this,

00:44:17.850 - 00:44:46.479

this uh interview. The fact that It will be made available to. Young people. Will take you a long ways in that direction because and the fact that you are. Dealing with music and Showing their minds a new and unique. Train of thought and what they. Give

00:44:46.479 - 00:45:18.540

them a definite. The information that you've given us, uh, in terms of being the fourth side. How it affects the, That's I I would say I'll But you are seeing. able to get these guys. You Information for the growth About you Are there any other comments?

00:45:20.870 - 00:46:02.080

Advice that you might have? Be coming up Music or just investing in. Like to. Let me feel. I just go out into life. Uh, in general that they should approach it. From the beginning. And learn all there is to know. About whatever you, that you're coming

00:46:02.080 - 00:46:23.510

in contact with. And if we really learn it, that you can. And to respect it or to enjoy it and not be deceived. And back up off of it by not having the full knowledge of it, having this fear of, of, of holding back on, on,

00:46:23.620 - 00:46:41.889

on the. Have likes or dislikes about a thing because we don't have the knowledge of it so we we got to continue to learn, you know, and to accept. And to look at things objectively. In the, in the, in the learning process, you know, and don't

00:46:41.889 - 00:47:01.800

just turn our back on and say well I don't need to know that. Because everything, uh, is important. You can't have different, uh, I mean, now there, there are different times that the different things are important, but everything is important. So I will always leave myself

00:47:01.899 - 00:47:40.399

open. For whom to learn in any field or in anything that we're going to, or even in everyday life. And then we will begin to grow. Materialistically. Spiritually And we would be in, in better balance. So that's what the, uh, Not that I followed myself, I,

00:47:40.520 - 00:48:02.479

I consider it being good at facts, you know, because, uh, I've been in the Canadian League. I was like the chief minister. This is the advice that he. Although it may not be worded in the same way that he would wording that this is what I

00:48:02.479 - 00:48:24.090

got out of. OK. Good good I understand. And it works for me. I had a bad habit of shutting things out, you know, and I couldn't go. I can accept anything. I I don't have to be a part of it to accept it. I just, I

00:48:24.090 - 00:48:55.679

just have knowledge of it. Right Thank you very much. Yeah. And I What Uh Yeah, really. OK. The medicines That is a.