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This is Edward Scott of the Black Archives of Mid-America. I'm interviewing 1st Lieutenant Albert O. Black, retired from the cavalry branch of the United States Army. The date is Friday, December 12, 1975, and the time is 7:25 p.m. Lieutenant Bligh When and where were you born?

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I was born in Chicago, Illinois. 1917. January. Uh, what, what were the, uh, what was the, the size of your family? Were you from a large family or, uh, were you the only child? I had one brother and one sister. What were the conditions surrounding, uh,

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the, uh, uh, what were the conditions around the time that you were able to begin to see conditions around you there in Chicago? Well, I'll tell you what, uh, I was born during the Depression during the hard times when people worked on WPA at $1 a

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day. And, uh, a lot of unemployment. And conditions were very bad at the time I was born. Uh, was your father employed or was your father educated, uh? Uh, to an extent was he employed, uh, gainfully every day, uh, was he, was there problems with him

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getting jobs and so forth? My father was a career soldier. He went in the army in 1899. He sold it in the 24th Infantry, the 9th Cavalry, and the 10th Cavalry. What of your, uh, Uh, What, what did your mother do? What was her occupation at

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that time? Well, my mother was a housewife. She didn't have an occupation. Uh, she was an army wife. Um-hum. Did, ah, do you have, did you have any, any ah knowledge was was Chicago the the place where your father, your parents were born, or were they

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born elsewhere and migrated to Chicago? No, I was born in Chicago and my father was going to officer candidate school. Uh, my mother went to Chicago to be near him, and that's where I was born. Where were they originally from, you know? My mother was from

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Kansas. My father was from Alabama. Uh, do you have, uh, any, any, Understanding of, uh, your grandparents, uh, did you, were you able to know your grandparents and, and, uh. I was able to know my grandfather. He was a half, uh, blooded Indian. Uh, I didn't

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know my grandmother. She was a full blooded Indian. But I knew my father well, my grandfather well. In fact, at one time he was a US Deputy marshal. Is that right? In the olden days. I see you. I, I imagine that will probably, uh. He probably

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had quite a few tales to tell about the the times that he had as a marshal. 00, and one time, I do remember, uh, When he was encountered 3 men robbing the bank. And they caught two of them somewhere else and they chased another one and

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uh caught him under the bridge with the Missouri River. And his gun was empty after having fired it several times, and they brought him in with an empty gun the bandit didn't know it. What was some of the other experiences, were there any other experiences, uh.

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Did you remember that he were there very many ah marshals or black marshals during that time that I didn't know, uh, of any. Uh, how did your father happen to, uh, to, to make a career in the service? Were you able to get any information on

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that as far as, uh, from him? Well, the only thing I can say, uh, being born in Alabama. There weren't many careers open to a black man. And uh I imagine there was quite a bit of publicity about the Spanish-American War in Cuba. Uh, which was

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in 1898, and being a young man about 17 years old, I imagine he, uh, read about it or heard about it. And decided that uh the army was his career would be his career. Uh, at that time at the 9th and 10th calorie served in Cuba.

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And they, uh, made quite a bit of record for themselves. Hmm. Uh, were you able to get to any of the, uh, any of the basic, uh, like true history, uh, true stories of of The, uh, escapades of the 9th and 10th Cavalry, uh, uh, from

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your father, did he tell you very much about the kind of experiences they had as soldiers, and did they, who did they actually, what kind of wars and so forth did they actually have to prepare for and were they engaged? Uh, unfortunately, the old soldiers didn't

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talk much. And history at that time. Uh, they weren't familiar with it. And most of the white people wrote the history that time. And The, uh, The significance of black history, uh, was not realized. Um-hum. During the olden days except by a certain few. Um-hum. Um.

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Is your father, is, are your parents still living? No, they're deceased. Uh, it was, uh, How long then were you living in Kansas City, I mean in Chicago and ah when did you come to the Kansas City area? Oh, I came back to Kansas City area

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soon after I was born, uh, I went to Kansas, uh, at Leavenworth, uh, uh, Fort Leavenworth. Uh, right soon after I was born, I was raised on army post. 41 in Fort Leavenworth. Uh, your father, and he, he was transferred here, uh, to Fort Leavenworth. After

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World War One, when he came back from overseas. Well, um, he came, came to Fort Leavenworth to serve, uh, in the army there. Then is this, uh, is this what, uh, actually began, uh, you, your career in the service as it is. That was the only

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thing I knew. Uh, I raised, born and raised in the army, and it was the only thing that, uh. Uh, that I was, um, uh, Knew anything about And actually I took a, a definite, uh, liking to it. Um. Uh, I was Did you begin your

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family there, uh, while you were in the service, uh, when were you married? Do you have any children? I stayed single, uh, during my, Period I served in the in the army. Until the, About the last year. Uh, I was married, and then, uh, I remarried,

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Uh I was divorced and I remarried, Uh, soon after my retirement, again, I remarried again soon after my retirement. Do you have any children? I have one child, uh, uh, 11 girl. Um-hum. I see, uh, Have you, uh, what, uh, what, what are some of, some

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of the kind of, kinds of, uh, conditions that existed, uh, here, well, at Fort Leavenworth, which is not far from. Here, uh, what were some of the kind of conditions that existed for the, uh, the black soldiers he entered into the service of, uh, of his

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country. Fort Leavenworth is about. 28 miles from Kansas City. Uh, The conditions when I went in were. Not of the best conditions as far as, uh, Uh, black soldier was concerned. Uh, during this period, Most of the black soldiers were stationed at the academic posts like

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West Point, Fort Sill. Fort Leavenworth. Washington DC. And they were used mostly as a service units. Uh, when I entered the service. Uh-huh. Uh, academic post. Could you, uh, kind of explain that term? Well, the, uh, West Point Military Academy was at. West Point, New York,

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the uh. The, uh, Fort Myer, Virginia served the. War College in the uh Washington. And, uh, The fort sill of the field artillery post field artillery school. Fort Leavenworth was commander on staff school. Fort Riley was Calvary school. And uh Um. There was another the infantry

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school was in uh. The post, I don't recall right now, but I'll recall, can recall it later on. Um-hum. What about, uh, the service unit, units, uh, could you, uh, explain that term? Uh, uh, this is one of the most disgraceful things that has happened to

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the black soldier in that. We were in the cavalry forces and we had, We mainly, Worked with horses. Same with West Point, Fort Raleigh, and Fort Leavenworth. And, uh, The rest of the other posts, infantry post, field artillery work with horses. Uh, empty polls say. Uh,

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they did have some training, uh, field training. But we did anything that a lot of things that civilians do now in army forces. Hu. Even to, as far as some of them even did janitor work. Uh-huh. So you didn't have much of an opportunity really to

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get into the kind of ah I imagine with the cavalry unit. Then, uh, It would have been, I can imagine it'd be quite enjoyable to really be getting down with the horses and and the soldiers. Oh, incidentally though, uh, we really did enjoy ourselves, uh. We

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went on fox hunts. That's something that most of the rich people can only afford. We had a chance to. Uh, worked and trained polo ponies, worked and trained hunters. And jumpers we had horse shows in that particular time we had quite a bit of athletics. We

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had a great football team. They used to play the black colleges and some of the other teams and they would come out with, uh, in many season they come out unbeaten. We had a great baseball team. We, our recreation was, uh, the best, and our heart

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showed we had, we had drills and the same drills, uh, that the Canadian raw, Royal Canadian Mounties had that used to go on exhibitions all over the United States. We use those same drills and compete against each other. Uh, each troop competed against each other. Uh,

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we had a quite a bit of experience learning how to learn horsemanship. We had quite a bit of experience with that. That, that was one of the. Of the delights of, uh, serve at that time. Um-hum. You have plenty of leisure time and, And uh we

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did have a lot of recreation and enjoyment. Um-hum. Um, what, uh, what about the, uh, Facilities and so forth. When exactly when did you, ah, really, ah, did you actually join the, the armed forces? May 9, 1935. Fort Leavenworth. A troop 10th hour. What about the

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uh kind of facilities uh that that existed for uh well existed period in the service where they separate but equal kind of facilities they were separate. Uh, an equal. Uh, we had good barracks steam heat, brick buildings. Uh, we had the best. Um-hum. The living conditions

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were very good. Um-hum. Uh, we had, every morning we had a good meal. Uh, at noon, we had a good heavy meal, and in the evenings we had a light meals. We were, had, uh, good warm clothing. And our living conditions were very, very good, especially

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compared to the people that were out, uh, in civilian life that was trying to really make it. Um-hum. Some of them didn't have any cold and it was cold and didn't have clothes. Uh, didn't have food to eat at times, but we, at that time, we

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were living as good as anybody lives now. Um. So, in, in, in, in actuality, it was, uh, uh, uh, a sort of, uh, A haven From the kind of conditions that, uh, that were existing during that depression. Period. Yeah, we, we didn't know there was depression

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active. Uh, as far we knew it was depression to other people, but we didn't know of the conditions they were, the many things they suffered and all that, we, we just never had to, uh, had to go through. Um-hum. Um, now, have you served in the,

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were you, did you do service in any of the, uh, major, major, major wars? I was in World War II. Uh, In World War II, uh, uh, I got hurt and got out on a, uh, disability retirement. Mm. How much, uh, how much service did you,

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did you actually get to, uh, did you actually encounter? 10 years. Was, uh, how was, how was the, the, uh, the, you know, I know that in the, uh, the recent war, the Vietnam War, there was quite a controversy about the black soldier being put up

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on the front line and the majority of the soldiers killed or injured being black soldiers, uh, uh, as far as ratio is concerned. How would, how were the conditions then? Well, I'd say that basically, uh, educational background. Uh, the black soldier went in. He had never

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been exposed to a lot of the cultures. And the training that the white soldiers had. And then, uh, Uh, when they went in, they, uh, were sent to the combat units. Uh, it was a quick war. You know a man went in, he went right to

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the right to the front at that time and if you did have some kind of technical background and you were assigned to these, uh, units. It's just, uh, it was a carryover from civilian life really. Now in civilian life there, there were no jobs for, uh,

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for the technicians so much for, uh, for the, uh, blacks as it was for the whites. So they never exposed to it as much. Um. However, they, uh, they did train them in service and now I think that's being remedied now. Um-hum. Mhm Uh, Let's see,

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during, uh, during the time that, that, Uh, You were, uh, overseas, uh, where were, where were Uh, How was the, how, how was the treatment of the soldiers, uh, by the other, uh, Treatment of soldiers was all right. Uh, uh, there wasn't any, there, it, it

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was, uh, in a different stage of life then as it is now. Uh, it was called the, it was a way of life at that time. Uh, you were segregated and there had been no integration. So, uh, there's been no big, uh, attempts to, to, there

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were attempts to integrate, but there wasn't a big attempt to integrate that time and it was just taken as a way of life, uh, it wasn't, it wasn't a turning point. At that time. Uh, the turning point came around about 1949, 1950, uh. Uh, during Truman's

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administration when he, he integrated the army. Uh, in the, in the 50s. So at that time, uh, uh, we, uh, we had, uh, We had. Uh, no. We had no, we had no, uh, problems as, uh, as such, except on the higher levels. Uh, on the

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higher levels that, uh, the, uh, they didn't want to send the troops over, uh, to into fighting against the white armies of the European. And, uh, They were just, uh, practically, Practically forced into it through a lot of the efforts of some of our black leaders

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who insisted that they be uh in combat units as well as as service units. Uh, we had the 92nd division to go to Italy. We had a ninety-third division for the South Pacific. Uh, in the divisions, uh, we did have some engineer units, trucking units, uh,

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signal corps units, and all. But those are about the two that were actually went into combat units. Um-hum. Mhm. So in other words, the soldiers were somewhat satisfied to be able to just ah deal among themselves and ah it was, it was more or less political.

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That, uh, was causing the, uh, Uh, the push towards, uh, the, uh, more combat orientated soldier, black soldier. Yeah, it was a push on the, the, uh, higher, uh, The higher, uh, echelon of the black race, uh, not so much as the, uh, the soldiers have.

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Uh, could you just, uh, briefly give me some history of, uh, You were probably being a soldier, you probably studied uh Studied, uh, some of the, uh, history of the black soldier, uh, Uh, since, uh, the war days, even back during the Civil War, uh, you

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have some information that, that, uh, might be helpful. Well, when I was in service. Uh, we had no idea that the black history would be so important. Uh, it was after I came out of service and during the time of the 60s that the latter part

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of the 60s. That we realized that, uh, We had a lot of stories to tell as uh. As well as a white man, and there were a lot of stories that weren't told. Uh, we did organize a. Army unit association. And which it uh I have

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held several positions including president, vice president, and then, uh, I'm now the executive secretary of the 19th and 10th Cavalry Association and so this, uh, got us to researching and, uh, studying the, uh, black military history. And we came up with, uh, many, many, Um, many,

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um, Uh, stories about the bravery and the, uh, the battles. Uh, that the black soldier has been in. Uh, even before that they were segregated, uh, from the combat, uh, Uh, part of it. Uh, we found out quite a bit of, uh, Of, uh, what they

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did in the Indian wars. Uh-huh. And we found out what they did in the Spanish-American War. We found out things they did in the World War II. And uh we found some about the Civil War but we we're so loaded down following our uh 9th our

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cavalry units that we haven't got back to the Civil War too much now but uh. Uh, even, uh, uh, in World War II, there was, there was a lot of stories that haven't been told. Um-hum. Uh, in the Vietnam War, there, there are stories now that

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haven't been told. Um-hum. But uh we have found that it uh we have just barely scratching the surface on on uh on uh the black military history really and it's began to pick up and people begin to get interested in it now for instance, um, in

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1866 to go back to the beginning. Of the regular black units, that's in the regular army. Uh, July 28th, they constituted the, They constituted 2 black regiments and 4 infantry regiments regiments. And this was the 9th, 10th cavalry 30, 39th, 40th, and 41st, I believe it

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was the uh. Of infantry. Um-hum. The 9th and 10th were cavalry. Now, the 9th cavalry was uh. Uh, was organized in Greensboro, Mississippi. Uh, Greensburg, Louisiana, Greensburg, Louisiana, and the 10th Cavalry is organized at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, about 28 miles from here in the Midwest. Uh,

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there are lots of people don't love and people don't know is that 15th. Of all the cavalry in the West, you see in the movies, know that 1/5 of them were black. We go to a movie now and you see tales about the cowardmen and all.

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A lot of these were black cavalry, but they show them as a white cavalry. Is that right? That's 1/5 of them, the 9th and 10th cavalry. They had 10 cavalries from the 1st to the to the 10th. And they were, they were organized in 1866 and

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it went. Fort Leavenworth right down through Kansas. To Texas. Arizona, New New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, all up and down those western states, and they had engagements with, uh, all several tribes of Indians. And they had many rescue. Uh Of the calendar. Um-hum. And One

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time, uh, General Custer. It was reduced back to a colonel, When he went to the the fight in the plane. Uh was offered a position with the. Cavalry, black cavalry, and he turned it down. Um-hum. So I guess that if he hadn't turned it down, maybe.

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200 of the black calorie been lost there. Right out, uh, Or perhaps his, his life would have been saved. It may be his life. Right. Uh, these, uh, uh, were these the, uh, cavalrymen, uh, that they, they were referred to as the, uh, as the, uh,

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buffalo soldiers, or. Yeah. This was, this was a question comes up quite a bit. A lot of people like to know. Uh, why they're called the Buffalo Soldier. And uh uh some figure that. They were making fun of him or something, but that's not true. You

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know, the buffalo to the Indian was a sacred animal. Hm. Uh, they use the bone to make needles. They made knives and different things and utensils out of. They use the hide to make teepees. They ate the meat. Um-hum. And use every part of the buffalo

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that was their was their main existence for the buffalo. Now the buffalo had a shaggy hair. Curly, shaggy hair though. And the black soldier hair resembled the buffalo. Fair. Um-hum. And out of respect. For the for the black soldier. The Indians nicknamed the Buffalo Soldier. In

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battles they would mutilate the white soldier and wouldn't mutilate the black soldier. When the black soldier come up, it just terrified the Indians. He had high respect for his fighting ability. On the plane. Uh, are there any, uh, maybe some specific persons, uh, that, uh, You

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know of who were Buffalo soldiers, uh, names of people, uh, who had, uh, You know, we won awards and so forth for valor in, in that time. Yeah, they, they still about 30 some. Calman got the Medal of Honor. Don't need any more. Uh, Sergeant Jordan

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got the Medal of Honor. Uh, manual stamps, and I can name, uh, several more. Got the Medal of Honor. And, uh, Doing, uh, Uh, doing, The ending was, they had several, That were, did outstanding. Outstanding, uh, Uh, well, performance of the duties, and all. But there

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was, uh, One medal they gave them, was a medal, Medal of Honor. Uh-huh. So it was pretty hard to get at that time. Um Yeah, they, when they, In one incident, I can remember. They went to the rescue. Of the 7th Cavalry under Colonel Forsyth. They

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were trapped between the, Uh, hills up in, uh, South Dakota. Uh, and the 10th Cavalry was marked. Uh, day and night in order to get there without sleep or anything. And uh H for Lieutenant Cry went. Half the 9th cavalry, I mean, but. Dismounted on one

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side, another half mounted on the other side and then engaged the Indians and uh. And uh saved us 7 calories. Uh, and another incident I remember that, uh, I don't remember being recorded the beaches Island which another colonel for sight. Uh, not the same other Colonel

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Forsyth. Also the rank of the 7th Cavalry was trapped, and they were, uh, just about killed them all off. They were, uh, he had a bunch of scouts with him. And the 10th Cavalry came up on Captain Carpenter. And save them from. Uh, being annihilated there.

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They had a lot of dead horses and they was laying up on the dead horses and everything and stinking and. And all, and that's just one of the several incidents and, uh, starting Jordan. He saved the whole settlement from being wiped out by the end and

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he moved in the night before and then end up going to attack the next day. And he set up barricades and all and he saved these. Settlers and all from being wiped out until the. Uh, the remaining part of the Uh, cavalry came up and, uh,

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reinforced them and the Indians had, uh, for that time the Indians had, uh, fade away when they couldn't, uh. Uh, they couldn't, uh, conquer the settlement and the soldiers at that time. Mm. Uh Uh, were there other incidents, uh, such as, uh, during the Spanish-American War.

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Yeah, during the Spanish-American War. The uh. The Uh, 9th and 10th Cavalry were placed on the right and left of the uh. Rough Riders under Teddy Roosevelt. And uh They got him caught down in the valley. And they were just about ready to wipe out the

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Rough Riders for the 9th and 10th Cavalry closed in on the. On the Spaniard and. Forced them to give up. And they were teaming with their hands up talking about. Uh, we're Cubans, we're Cubans, don't shoot, don't shoot, don't shoot. Uh, incidentally, maybe, uh, Uh, uh

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Colonel Roosevelt might have not been president of the United States. If this uh 9th and 10th hadn't came up and saved these, uh, rough riders from annihilation. Uh, I believe uh there's also. Was it a black soldier that was one of the first soldiers, uh, to

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take one of the hills there doing it, Sergeant, uh, Barry. The 9th Cory is the first soldier to get on the hill there, uh, one of the main hills. Uh He was the first one to reach the top of the hill. There was a flag at

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one point, the Cow, black cowman. Picked up the flag from the wounded flag bearer of the 3rd cavalry and carried it up. Now in that Spanish-American War, they did have a uh. The only captain who. Everybody, I think, knows the John J. Pershing. They called him

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Black Jack Person. And he was named Black Jack, so he started his service with a Black Coward. And He was. He was very fond of the black soldier, very fond of the black soldier. Uh, he fought with them in, in the, uh. Spanish American War and

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the fact that he asked to be relieved from his other unit to come and fight with the black cavalry. Because he came out in the 9th ca OK. Now, a lot of the times the West Point white officers would be assigned to the uh Uh, cavalry

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units and the old time sergeants and all would actually uh. Uh, given their baptism. And would help train them. In the actual uh Uh, Uh, soldiering experiences though. And uh they they thought very much of that. They thought, thought a lot of that when they made

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when when the black soldiers got through with some, some made the white officers made had high ranks, high ranks. To start out with the black count. Uh, went into the Mexican punitive expedition in 1916 in Mexico. Uh, black deck person. Uh, he was in charge of

00:36:11.409 - 00:36:33.929

the expedition there and he asked for the 10th Cavalry to go to the Mexican killers expedition in pursuit of Pancho Villa and they had a Uh, battle there carousel. Several of troopers of the uh 10th Cavalry were killed there at the carousel and and doing the

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Mexican penalty exposition in 19. In fact, I think one of the last counted battles was fought in 1920. Uh, right out Wauco. Uh, but the Mexicans there in like 20, I think that's one of my Cali Dallas folks. Uh, a horse, horse cavalry. And also I

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think the only being that charge. was made by The 10th coward. Not band that charge, but the only saber charge, and they charged the going out of ammunition and, and, uh, they had no bullets no fight with no, and the Indians were still attacking them. They

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pulled the sabers out and they charged the Indians and this, they were terrified and they just routed them out. So that took a lot of, a lot of guts and all to do something like that. Um-hum. Uh No. It seemed that I've heard quite a few

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uh Uh, tells of how the black soldier was treated, uh. Uh, upon returning from war, having to fight for his country. Um, the incidents that you know of. uh, Uh, bad treatment of the soldiers, uh, both, uh. Well, uh, not only when they return and even

00:38:07.830 - 00:38:25.780

in service, uh, in World War 2, World War 1, and all the. Uh, especially like World War II when they were soldiers in the South and all they had, they had quite a few run-ins with the, uh, those small, uh, towns in the South, and also,

00:38:26.199 - 00:38:44.389

uh, personally I do know that we traveled the train for Clark, Texas. We've come up on leave here at Kansas City. And uh we have to ride in the in the uh behind the engine. Until we cross that Mason Dixon line then we could ride back

00:38:44.389 - 00:39:00.080

and other coaches and then one time I know we, uh, I was going to returning from leave and they uh came and picked us out. Now some of us were officers and, uh, and we were sitting next to some of the white privates. And we had

00:39:00.080 - 00:39:17.540

asked us to move up to the other coachs behind the engines where all the sudden and dirt cinders were. And uh this was made us feel awful bad uh and we'd worked so hard to to uh uh advance ourselves and here's some privates and white privates

00:39:17.540 - 00:39:36.060

that they didn't want to be in service and he was being treated 10 times better than we were and it was embarrassing passing those people to them coaches us parading up there behind the ending to ride. So you can imagine how we felt. Mm. Uh, what

00:39:36.060 - 00:39:52.280

about the, uh, the facilities in the town? How were the soldiers treated in the town. Well, we had to go. We went to a certain section of the town, of course, not so in, in, uh, Fort Clark. We were on cross the borders with Via Cuno.

00:39:53.500 - 00:40:16.489

Uh, we were a complete black division down there, Fort Clark, uh, Fort Clark, uh, Texas. And, uh, But in towns where there were black troops and white troops, we went to the segregated part of town and uh Uh, we didn't, uh, to have our entertainment and

00:40:16.489 - 00:40:41.209

things and all, and we didn't, uh. Um, Usually mingle and with other we were completely segregated so. Uh, and uh, Yeah. In the cities nearby cities, no. But, uh, not too long ago, uh I'd say a couple of years ago, I was contacted as secretary of

00:40:41.209 - 00:40:59.959

the 9th and 10th Cavalry. They had a problem in, in the Junction City. They had a district down there uh. That was where the black soldiers went all the time and all and. So they wanted to, uh, tear it down and get rid of it and,

00:41:00.669 - 00:41:20.110

And asked my opinion of it and. Um, And I told my opinion of it that it was not necessary now in this day and age. I said it might have been a way of life then, but it wasn't necessary to have a this one separate portion

00:41:20.110 - 00:41:36.629

of town for the black soldiers to go to be welcome in any part of town, and this thing should have been out and, uh, they did eventually tear it down and, uh, and the soldiers in Junction City now they go right with the white and black

00:41:36.629 - 00:42:00.620

all go together and all. Uh, how, what kind of, of, of, of, of real substantial changes have you seen, uh, come about through the years, uh, as far as the, uh, the opportunity for the, uh, For the blacks so um And, and, uh, the conditions that,

00:42:00.629 - 00:42:24.040

uh, that exist within the service. How do you think that, uh, there's a, a, a very Meaningful mingling. Of the soldiers together now. In comparison to the times, uh. You talked to her previously. Well, I can give you one example that I was really proud of.

00:42:25.139 - 00:42:44.580

You know, as an organization have reunions every year. And we go to army post and they lay out the blanket for us. Uh, the rather the carpet. So we had a, we had a reunion here at Fort Leavenworth, um, I think this was about 1970 whatever

00:42:44.580 - 00:43:05.459

it was, it was, and We found, we found that we had a black. Man. As chief of cavalry. Now we were only non-commissioned officers in cavalry in the cavalry before World War II. Well, no, we weren't. That's not true because they had officers in Spanish-American War

00:43:05.459 - 00:43:22.860

and they had officers in World War II. But it was usually the policy after the war was over with, they usually went back to enlisted, enlisted ranks, because they only had 2. Uh, at one time we had we had two regular, uh, well, 1 regular, one

00:43:22.860 - 00:43:47.530

general, John Davis. And I had black chaplain or something like that. But at this reunion, we invited uh this uh. Black office, uh. And he was a colonel, chief of all the cavalry. He was chief of power station in Washington DC. And he came with his

00:43:47.530 - 00:44:07.000

colonel, before he could get there to the reunion within a month, he was made a brigadier general, one-star general. So when he got there he was a one star general uh incidentally this man uh left and went to uh. Went to another post and he made

00:44:07.000 - 00:44:24.989

him a two-star general and now he is, he is commanding officer of the 1st Cavalry Division. In other words, he's the highest, highest ranking cavalry officer, uh, of course he didn't staff officer there, but he's commanding officer of the 1st Cal Division which in World War

00:44:24.989 - 00:44:45.449

II we had the 1st Cal Division, 2nd Cal Division, and The 2nd cavalry was black, white and black officers and uh the 1st cavalry Division was all white. Now I only have one cow division now and this black officer is a major general and commanding officer

00:44:45.449 - 00:45:04.040

of this first cow division so you can see what kind of change has been there then. Now, uh, one incident that I had, I'd been in service quite a while before I made Austin, and, uh, we were in Fort Clark, Texas. I was in C 227

00:45:04.040 - 00:45:22.639

Cali. Yeah, so, uh, they, uh, we had a, at that time we had quite two commanders. And if they did good they moved them out to a white unit, but they kept the white officers that didn't do so good they keep them there. But if he,

00:45:22.729 - 00:45:41.850

if he was an exceptional officer, they moved him out of this black house. Yeah, so they. Uh, uh, what, then it came time that I got a promotion, uh, and then I got to be troop commander myself. And I had a white lieutenant that was under

00:45:41.850 - 00:46:00.419

me and the white lieutenant went to the colonel said, Well, what you gonna do about me? I'm, uh, uh, he said, Well, I'm going to transfer you out. We could not have a white officer in command, I mean a black officer in command of a white

00:46:00.419 - 00:46:18.820

officer in our troops. Now how long ago was this? This was in 19, about 1940, 43. Uh-huh. And this was an embarrassing situation. Here was the white officer that couldn't qualify for troop commander and not qualified for troop commander, but so they moved the white officer

00:46:18.820 - 00:46:44.620

out. So we, we didn't have, we didn't command white officers. In our, uh, unit, uh, that circumstance has changed, uh, well, what I was saying that, uh, um. Uh, with our Major General, uh, commander of the 1st count Division, and I'd say there's about 5, about

00:46:44.620 - 00:47:11.239

7 more than that, I'd say about 20% are black. And that's like another example is uh is uh a chappy James, now four-star general commanding the Uh, Colorado Springs there commanding the no ride. So, uh, this much change has come up. However, the problem. Is in

00:47:11.239 - 00:47:35.639

the junior officers. They're not, it's, they are, it's hard to keep black junior officers served. And the situation goes, keeps going like it is now. You won't have anybody to replace. The higher black officers as they retire. Because we, we, we're short on juniors, lieutenants and

00:47:35.639 - 00:48:02.850

captains. We're short on them, which will make us short on majors. And that would be our own colonel. Um-hum. What, uh, what, what do you see as the, uh, reason for this, this show that uh coming about? I, I, I, I think they're not paying. Uh,

00:48:03.370 - 00:48:28.780

enough attention, uh, to the junior officers. They're not making it. Um, Making the army, not making the army, uh. Uh, appealing to him, uh. I believe that in the lower grades there's more bias and prejudice. Than they are in the upper grades. Because, uh, if you're

00:48:28.780 - 00:48:48.790

prejudiced in the upper grade then you either get out or go by their rule, but it's more it's harder to control the prejudice. Uh, as you go down to the lower grade. So I think that's what it is there and uh the also the blacks have

00:48:48.790 - 00:49:11.479

more opportunities in civilian life now. And uh the being like to getting competition with army life as far as their careers are concerned. Uh, What do you, what, what do you see, uh, uh, as far as, uh, do you know of any of the, uh, The,

00:49:11.489 - 00:49:29.939

uh, greater people, are those people who were outstanding that came from around this area. I know you said that, uh, Fort Leavenworth was sort of a kickoff point for a great many of the, uh Buffalo soldiers. Yeah, it was a we had from Leavenworth we had

00:49:29.939 - 00:49:48.790

more officers, I think from many smaller towns than they had in the whole United States. The more black officers, uh, they made, uh, made quite a bit of Uh, and had quite a bit of promotion, but, uh, there still, uh, uh, that time, you know, a

00:49:48.790 - 00:50:08.600

lot of them were high school graduates, and, uh, after you get to a higher rank up there from colonel, you, uh, have to have that college education now get those higher ranks, but as, uh, coming in to this period, uh, you. You are getting college graduates

00:50:08.600 - 00:50:32.020

now to go into the service. They even got have blacks now in going to West Point. But at that time, uh, they, um, The Work, uh, is outstanding. They were retired in 20 years. No, because they couldn't make any, any more advancements, no. So we had

00:50:32.020 - 00:50:54.780

a, we had a, uh, Colonel McHenry. He was, he was outstanding in 76 for tank battalion with. Uh, in Germany. He had 83 days on the front. And uh they spearheaded the 3rd. Third, um, 3rd Armored force on the path. Hum. They were in the front.

00:50:57.040 - 00:51:19.280

Of the, uh, 3rd army they're the first one to contact the enemy over there. He lost quite a few, quite a few casualties. We have some of the cavalry officers, uh, from our unit to be there too. Uh Uh, I, I know that, uh, Uh, we

00:51:19.280 - 00:51:39.969

have, uh, uh, now we have several outstanding, uh, officers and all, but, uh, the idea is that it's law. Uh, when you may do something good in the service, it never gets to the civilian life. Their records there in the service. We don't have enough people

00:51:39.969 - 00:51:57.340

researching and doing the things that you're doing now. Which we should have and more people should be doing it in order to reach and get these uh uh records of these men and bring it out. Uh, the, I still say that the army and, uh, the

00:51:57.340 - 00:52:16.820

military service should be more united with the civilian service and not hold itself, uh, in the standoff point. Uh, they should, uh, uh, be stationed near some town and not some little town, from near some city where they can. Be able to be in community affairs

00:52:16.820 - 00:52:38.199

and all and where that uh these things can be can be brought out. Uh, there are to prove of. Capabilities of of. Of the black, uh, men, they, a lot of them have come out of service and, and have did well in social life, but you

00:52:38.199 - 00:52:59.479

never hear the good things they do in the service. Do you see uh Uh, what role, uh, how long have you seen the, uh, uh, uh, the black woman? Being involved in the service kind of life, uh, as far as, uh, even, even the wives of,

00:52:59.489 - 00:53:22.709

uh, the soldiers and then on up into wax and, and, uh, and wears and so forth in the service and, uh. You have, uh, I'll tell you one thing. Uh, I can't see how a black woman. Can care for 3 or 4 kids. We started out

00:53:22.709 - 00:53:47.110

at $21 a month. We actually got $19 a quarter. Uh, can raise a family. On so small of a salary. And send them to school and all. Uh, As a as such as a black woman has been, I'd say the black serving woman has managed better

00:53:47.110 - 00:54:08.169

and did better than any person that I can even think of to be able to do that. Uh, it's, it's, it's almost, it seemed like almost an impossibility. So your black woman who has served, I think has been more important. Uh, uh, then, uh, any, any

00:54:08.169 - 00:54:30.399

woman, any black woman, uh, uh, in any type of life. Now, they're also in their living conditions. Uh, they have to go around to the different little posts. The housing is bad and uh. And sometimes he had to work his laundries and they worked for for

00:54:30.399 - 00:54:52.239

the officers and office quarters maids and things like that, very, very little money at all. And, uh, For a woman to live under those conditions, it has to be a lot of faithfulness. And dedication, you know, to living in position and I think one most person

00:54:52.239 - 00:55:14.040

to be to admire is a is a wife of of a military man. Uh, in the nursing area. How many uh black nurses doing those uh those roles. Uh, I'm not too familiar with, with the nurses. There were, there were some black nurses, no. But they,

00:55:14.060 - 00:55:37.070

they do have them now. There's more of them now, more wax doing different jobs and all that. The change, there's been quite a bit of change there. But there weren't very many black nurses. Very many commissions was way and far between, way and far between. Lieutenant

00:55:37.070 - 00:56:01.919

Bligh, are there, uh. Are there any other points, ah, concerning the history of, of the black soldiers you would like to touch on? Well, uh, which, uh, are you particularly interested in? Are you particularly interested in a certain regiment or, uh, the. Uh, 9 calorie, or

00:56:01.919 - 00:56:23.590

10 calorie or? I'm familiar more with the 9th and 10th since I soldier with them, more so with the 10th because I was actually in the 10th gallery. Uh, however, the 9th gallery is about one of the most, uh, underpublicized, uh, regiments there is, and they

00:56:23.590 - 00:56:42.159

also had more engagements and campaigns in the 10th gallery. Uh, that's the thing that a lot of. Uh, people don't know. I can only assume that they had, uh, more historians in the 10th Cavalry than they did in the 9th Cavalry, and they recorded their events

00:56:42.159 - 00:57:03.540

and, uh, uh, and the skirmishes and, and, uh, the everyday living and all, uh, more so than they did with the, uh, with the, uh. Uh, with the, uh, 9 calorie. Um-hum. I can, uh, and some of the uh old tales that the fellows used to

00:57:03.540 - 00:57:24.620

tell me and Uh, some of the things we've read about and researched and all, uh, I think I was telling you about the. Uh, 9th Cavalry making this rescue of, of Colonel Forsyth in 1890 about to say it was, it was the same time as of

00:57:24.620 - 00:57:53.620

Wounded Knee. Uh, They were under Major Guy B. Henry. He had a battalion at that time they were called battalions. They're called squadrons now. But he had a battalion up in uh Pine Ridge. And they were Uh, they were surrounded. By uh. Black Kettle. This ending

00:57:53.620 - 00:58:17.929

was name was uh uh Black Kettle. The name of the black elk what it was um. It's at the end of the uh end of the war it finally come to the end right at Pen at the Pine Ridge Agency. That's on the south edge of

00:58:17.929 - 00:58:37.090

South Dakota in December of 1890. And at the battle wounded knee, the 9th, uh, as the so often the pace would do again in the future, came the rescue. This time it rescued 7th Cavalry in the command of Colonel George Forsyth trapped by the Sioux under

00:58:37.090 - 00:58:55.959

the leadership of Black Elk in a low ground along a creek. Uh, the colonel and his men was spared the fate of his predecessor, General Armstrong Custer, by. Uh, courtesy of the 9th Cavalrych down the Indians in the best cavalry tradition. The black elk's men broke

00:58:55.959 - 00:59:17.850

and flow and fled. The 7th was saved and except for a few small incidents in later years, the Indian wars were over. Well, they, they had, uh, uh, quite a, quite a history behind them. Uh, the 9th, the 9th and 10th fought pretty much except in

00:59:17.850 - 00:59:49.060

the, uh, Mexican punitive expedition. Uh, in 1916 in pursuit of Poncho Villa, uh. Now they, they won had battle honors in the Indian war you know against Comanches New Mexico in 1877-1870. Uh, 8 1879, 1880, 1881 in the Utes in Montana. Uh, 1887 and uh. Uh,

00:59:49.229 - 01:00:14.350

Pine Ridge and Spanish American War San Diego. The Philippine insurrection was their earliest one. Um-hum. Incidentally, uh, the night Cal was first enlisted man was named George Washington, first volunteer named George Washington. Was he, uh, was he, uh, related to the, uh, The George Watson that

01:00:14.350 - 01:00:30.409

was president, uh, well, you can kind of figure that out, but he was a black man. George was a white man. I, I doubt seriously, uh, I think in olden days he named quite a few of the, the blacks named quite a few of the, uh,

01:00:30.669 - 01:00:31.669

uh, their children.