00:00:02.359 - 00:00:29.010

OK. Um, it is March 19th, 1976, 3:34 in the afternoon and I'm interviewing Mr. Bubbles Kleis, the executive director of the of the Coaches Council of Kansas City, Missouri. Good afternoon, Mr. Kleis. Good afternoon. First of all, what is your full name? Arrington Bubble Clit. You

00:00:29.010 - 00:00:58.549

were born Arrington Bubble Clit. No. Legally, my name now is Arrington Bubble Clice. I was born William Arrington Clice. All right. When were you born? In October the 14th, 1908, where? Newport, Arkansas. Newport, Arkansas. All right. What was your mother's name? Teresa Kleis, Teresa Clet. What

00:00:58.549 - 00:01:25.839

was her mother's name? Uh, Arrington, uh. Father's name Thaddeus Arrington, and I don't remember. Mother's first name, my grandmother's first name. OK. How do they, how did they come to be in Newport, Arkansas? Well, my grandfather was a businessman in the, in the city of Newport

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prior to my birth, and a sister 1 year and 6 months older. And uh my father was employed. By my grandfather. Prior to marriage to my mother, my mother was raised in a convent. In a Catholic convent in Meridian, Mississippi, Meridian, Mississippi, right. But, uh, her

00:01:53.330 - 00:02:20.449

father had migrated from Mississippi to Arkansas and had established some business. You say your father, uh, um, um, your family had a business. What kind of business was it? Well, uh, uh a small town hardware, hardware and uh. Well, it was a combination of hardware, grocery,

00:02:20.970 - 00:02:38.789

restaurant, and etc. You can imagine a small town and, and supplying the needs of a, of an isolated black community. And, uh, he would employ people. Uh, he had a barbershop, and you might say in 3 storerooms, he had all of the necessary business that uh.

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The community would uh have. All right, this is your grandfather owns, right? And your father worked for him. That's right. All right. What did your mother do? My mother was in school at that time and only visited the, the Arkansas area of Newport when school was

00:02:55.300 - 00:03:14.220

there on vacation. What schools? She was in a Catholic school in Meridian, Mississippi. It's a convent. Mhm. Uh, uh, what are your brothers and sisters' names? I have none living, no relatives living now, but my sister was Marguerite Kleis, OK, and you, you, you don't have

00:03:14.220 - 00:03:30.440

any brothers? None of them. You just the two children, right? OK, uh, uh. Let me see, what school did you go to in in Newport? Uh, I was too young to go to school. I left Newport at the age of, uh, uh, less than 2 years

00:03:30.440 - 00:03:52.550

old. We migrated from, uh, Newport, Arkansas to Saint Louis, in which I entered Dumas Elementary School in Saint Louis, Missouri, and we only lived there about 2 or 3 years, but when I come to Kansas City, I entered the WW Yates Elementary School at Levin and

00:03:52.550 - 00:04:16.190

Campbell as a 4th grade student. Do you remember the circumstances, uh, of your family moving from Newport to Saint Louis? Uh, yes, I remember the circumstances. My father had business, uh, Problems and worries in Arkansas. He left that state and went to Saint Louis, Missouri, and

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he had far trouble, I guess he had a lot of creditors and this sort of thing. So my mother and father followed my grandfather north. What was his name again? Thaddeus Arrington. OK. Uh, what were the circumstances from you, your family leaving Saint Louis and coming

00:04:34.070 - 00:04:50.959

to Kansas City? Uh, better job opportunities. My father was, uh, a packing house employee as a butcher or cut up cattle some kind of way, and I guess the title would be by butcher, but the packing area of Kansas City, Missouri at that time attracted, uh,

00:04:51.459 - 00:05:06.390

packing house employees, and I guess you would have to call it a skill. He was a butcher at that time. And we came from Saint Louis to Kansas City, uh, because of job opportunities for my father. How old were you when you left Newport now to

00:05:06.390 - 00:05:22.489

Saint Louis? Less than 2 years old. Less than 2. No. All right. How old were you when you left Saint Louis? Uh, I would say around 98 or 9 years old. OK. Uh, uh, do you remember where you lived in Saint Louis? Yes, 1708 Gratiot Street.

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OK. Did you go to school in Saint Louis? Yes, sir. 14th and Walnut, Dumas. Elementary school. OK, uh, uh, can, can you remember any of your instructors at Dumas? No, none of the instructors. Uh, can you remember a girlfriend's name at Dumas? No. No girlfriend's name.

00:05:39.549 - 00:06:00.640

Your best buddy's name at Dumas. Yes, he was a very famous Negro ballplayer named Eddie Holt. Eddie Holt, but he was a neighborhood, a neighborhood, uh. A friend, older, much older. I'd say, uh, he was in his teens and I was, uh, under 12. And uh

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I admired him because he was a great athlete um. What did, what did what did a young man do in Saint Louis at that time for a good time? Well, see, I left Saint Louis early, and you say about the age of 8 or 9, and

00:06:16.570 - 00:06:35.510

I wouldn't know much about what people did, uh, for recreational, uh, things. Uh, I had no idea. Uh, I know the neighborhood I lived in was just a 3 room, uh, uh, apartment, uh. And my father was gone like traveling from place to place, uh, for

00:06:35.510 - 00:06:52.450

job opportunities, so my mother, sister, and I stayed in, uh, 3 rooms, but when my dad did find uh permanent employment, which was in Kansas City, then my family moved here. Prior to that time I've done nothing but, uh, uh, there was a, a foundry and,

00:06:52.459 - 00:07:07.779

uh. Uh, a cement company in the neighborhood and uh all I can remember for recreation is playing on, on the foundry lots and, uh, And uh on the same piles of the cement company, did you do, did you ever work at that age? Oh no, no

00:07:07.779 - 00:07:27.619

work, no work. All right, um, where did you move to in Kansas City? 1115 1/2 Camel. It was an apartment building. In the rear of 11:15 Cara for a four-family apartment. It was my first residence in Kansas City. And your father was employed where at Cutty

00:07:27.619 - 00:07:46.839

Hayes packing house and your mother, mother was unemployed at the time. Later she did have a job with the Bemis Bag Company. OK, uh, uh, what school did you go in Kansas City? WWE Yeats. So WWE Yeats for how many grades? I completed the 7th grade

00:07:46.839 - 00:08:02.529

in WWE Yates. And can you remember any of your teachers? Yes. Which one inspired you the most? Francis A. Hayes was a 7th grade teacher and formerly was uh one of the first black principals in the, in the school system of Kansas City. Mhm. Name some

00:08:02.529 - 00:08:25.559

more teachers. Uh, Mrs. Barbee. Uh, was a math teacher, uh, Mrs. Martin that lived in our area, uh 14th Lydia that, uh, was an English teacher. Reading wasn't English in elementary school, but mostly reading. But I can remember the, uh, uh, uh, Della Newsom was one

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of my 5th grade teachers. I can remember these ladies as if it was yesterday. Which one inspired with the, the 7th grade teacher inspired you the most? She really turned me all around. Yes, that's the one that turned you around. Yes, I turned you around for

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what? I was really a bad boy in those days. I was a hooky player and, and very mischievous, and, uh, didn't want to go to school. I had no interest in school, so I would play hooky and. And do all the sort of things that, that

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were mischievous things. Do you consider yourself at that time a reasonably intelligent individual? Definitely. I have never, uh, well, first, I, I don't think I, uh, I think I have the average intelligence, but I did not finish school. I am a dropout. But it's because of

00:09:10.500 - 00:09:26.260

necessities that I dropped out. It wasn't that I didn't want to go to school at the time. When I was younger, and I say again that Mrs. Hayes inspired me to follow my education. I graduated before I was 13 years old. There was a graduation at

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the 7th grade at that time, at that level, uh, uh. Moving right along, um. You're in Kansas City. How old are you at this time? Uh, well, I was less than 13 years old when I graduated from Kansas City, OK, from, uh, the WWH School here

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in Kansas City. All right. What, what were your major interests at this time? Uh, really, really had no educational inspirations at all, but I have always been sport-minded. OK, this is around 19, around 1920, around 1920. All right, what's going on in the world right now

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that you that you are conscious of? Uh, in what particular phase that that that that a young 18 or 13 year old is conscious of as far as the community is concerned. Anything? Uh, I'm looking on the maybe the black side of this picture because I

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can see our kids of that age with no, uh, ideas of what's gonna happen to them in the future as far as finishing or getting adequate education. Uh, there are many, many recreational, uh, opportunities, uh, even to continue and make careers out of, but it seems

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to me that our kids are not even interested to get enough education. To if he is lucky enough in the world of sports to make a career out of it, to really protect whatever he can earn, but at this particular time. Lois Klaus is a little

00:11:01.510 - 00:11:26.469

hustler about now and I'm imagining in my mind this is in 1920. What uh what What were you involved in? I was involved more in sports. I, uh, there was few job opportunities for young blacks in those days, uh, sports? Uh, well, basketball. I played basketball

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and all kinds of baseball. There was no softball, but later I did get entered in soft uh softball, and I was a very good swimmer to be a little statured fella. All right, all right, how did you get off into debate and is that organized sports?

00:11:39.390 - 00:11:59.679

Yes, that's, all of these were organized sports. All right. What was the first, your first opportunity to get into organized sports? Uh, 7th grade, uh, basketball. At elementary level, all the 7th grade schools in the city, black schools, would have a, uh, a competitive meet prior

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to graduation. We'd have a field day for all kinds of track, and all the kids, even not interested in sports would be interested enough in running or jumping, girls and boys, and we'd have a field day. I was more interested in representing my school in, in

00:12:18.070 - 00:12:36.710

the, uh, basketball area and, and had made the team. Was there any boxing going on at this time? None, none whatever. No, not, no boxing yet, um, um. Was there a name of the team? Uh, the school you represented, which was WWE. Are you the WWE?

00:12:36.820 - 00:12:54.289

What was your second opportunity at organized sports? Uh, swimming, uh, and it wasn't uh swimming wasn't organized, and I learned in this building under the guidance of, uh, uh, a coach named Beck. This building, what, what building is this? This was the old YMCA building. And

00:12:54.289 - 00:13:10.630

uh I had my first swimming lessons as a Boy Scout and to earn a merit badge, you had to learn to swim and learn to attempt to save lives. So we'd say that would be instructional swimming. And uh I got very interested in that. You were

00:13:10.630 - 00:13:30.109

a good swimmer. Very good. All right, um, um, organized baseball. I'm looking at baseball and basketball were your primary interest is in, I guess in sports. Did you join any teams, any other teams? Yes, I played with the, the YMCA junior league team, uh, uh baseball.

00:13:30.590 - 00:13:44.400

I played basketball with the YMCA junior team. I was on a Boy Scout troop 92 team as a basketball player. Now, you, you said a moment ago that, that you was kind of a tough little character. Now how did you get off into the Boy Scouts?

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Well, it was just a neighborhood thing that, uh, all the friends in the neighborhood was in the Boy Scouts. And at that day, they had what we call Cub Scouts. Now we call them Rear Scouts because if you wasn't at the age of 12, you couldn't

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be a Boy Scout anyhow. You had to be a, a Rear Scout at that time, at that time. Now I think they call it Cub Scouts, but, uh, I was interested in it from, and the youngest and the smallest in, in the neighborhood in which I

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lived. Uh, I think we are, uh, maybe going a little farther. But I moved from the area of, uh, 11:1515 Camel. And uh moved to 909 Euclid. And I spent the most of my young life at that address. Mhm. Uh, how high did you go in

00:14:30.080 - 00:14:47.609

the Boy Scouts? Uh, to Life and Star, I think that's about 18 merit badges. Yeah, that's about halfway to Eagle. That's about halfway. How old are you now? I'm 67. No, how old are you as an Eagle? I mean, as a Life and Star Scout, uh,

00:14:47.919 - 00:15:05.460

around 13 or 14 years old. I'm 13 or 14 because I just quit high school. You quit high school. What high school did you quit? Lincoln High School. Who was principal? Uh, a man named Cook. Can't remember his first name. HO Cook. HO Cooke. This is,

00:15:05.619 - 00:15:24.049

uh, what, what year would you say this is? Uh, this would be around 1922. What was your girlfriend's name? Arga Starks. Argina Starks. OK. I finally married her. Oh, you married her. I finally married her. OK. Uh, what was your best buddy's name? At Wood Hemmett

00:15:24.390 - 00:15:41.520

at Wood Hemmett. Alright, were you in in any clubs or other activities activities at the time, the period that you was in high school? No, other than, uh. Interest in sports. I didn't belong to any social clubs. I did, uh, I did belong to a band.

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I played the cornet for about 4 or 5 years. Were you pretty good? No, I wouldn't say I was very good. Uh, I, I didn't like studying the notes and that sort of thing, really studying music. I like to play the cornet, but I didn't like

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to study the music. Mhm. Um, then what year did you, I mean, uh, what grade did you drop out of high school then? Sophomore. You were a sophomore. What did you do when you dropped out? I was, my first job was, uh, at Lynnwood and Paseo

00:16:09.219 - 00:16:24.760

at the Saint Regis Hotel as a busboy. OK. How long were you there? Well, I was there and worked my way up to everything you could do in a hotel but manage it. OK. What was the manager of the hotel's name then? Cersei was the owner,

00:16:25.219 - 00:16:44.090

uh, and then they had departments like who was in charge of dining room and kitchen. Uh, Wesley Young was the. Caterer or head, head waiter, uh, we had a fellow named Vance that was a very good, uh, chef that run the kitchen. Uh, I think the

00:16:44.090 - 00:17:04.089

person living today would run the administrative part of the hotel as far as taking care of the elevators, bellhops, and maids and etc. was a black named Nathan Russell. His brother was also the director of the YMCA. All right. Who was he, the director of the

00:17:04.089 - 00:17:22.928

YMC? About what year? About the late 20s and early 30s. OK. Uh, you're, you're, are washing, you, you're, you're working at the restaurant. OK, the whole hotel. About what year was that? Well, it was during the time I, I stayed there several years and I would

00:17:22.928 - 00:17:38.810

say past the time my classes graduated, so it would exceed 1925. OK, so I'd say 5 years or 6 years at the hotel. So we're heading toward a recession, the end of the war, right? What's going on in during the war? Uh, during the war, the

00:17:38.810 - 00:17:54.650

war was over in 1818, and, uh, at that time, uh, I lived in Saint Louis during that war, during World War One, and, uh, I'd hustle papers to the soldiers and that sort of thing. So I'm saying again, my first job was the real job was

00:17:54.650 - 00:18:08.250

where I drew a salary was at this hotel after I had dropped out of high school. What soldiers did you, did you hustle papers to? The all troop trains that, uh, that came into Saint Louis, were there a lot of them coming? Oh, definitely. Saint Louis

00:18:08.250 - 00:18:23.489

at that time was a kind of a division or, uh, what do they call it, where all of the trains go in, uh, terminal, uh, terminal, OK. Um, um, were there very many black soldiers? Yes, but they all designated to to the cavalry, and there was

00:18:23.489 - 00:18:39.219

a 9th and 10th cavalry, uh, one down in Texas, one out here in. Fort Riley and one at Fort Leavenworth. And these are the only 3 black units in the United States. OK. How did you feel about the cavalry? Well, I, I wasn't even interested in

00:18:39.219 - 00:18:49.560

warfare activities at all. I was still a young boy, I was still a young boy. I mean, were you, did you look at them with an admiration? Yes, I, I, I thought in one of these days when I grew up I'd like to be a cavalry,

00:18:50.329 - 00:19:07.469

like to be a soldier. I don't know about, uh, riding the horses and that sort of thing. Did your father, I like the uniform. Did your father and grand or grandfather, were they ever military men? Never, never, never were. Uh, can you remember, uh. What was,

00:19:07.550 - 00:19:21.229

what was your, the impression that that the war, uh, gave you at that particular time in 1818 at the end of the, at the end of the war? Well, as young as I was, I, I, I wasn't too impressed. I'd, I liked the look at soldiers

00:19:21.229 - 00:19:37.880

in uniforms and, uh, I thought they were all like cowboys, all strong and sturdy people and had been well trained and I admired the, the military programs. Can you remember who was president then? Uh, Woodrow Wilson. What, uh, did you, did you have any opinions of

00:19:37.880 - 00:20:01.250

Woodrow Wilson at that time? No. All right. 1818, we're moving on, OK? Uh, we're moving into the Depression. Uh, what was the depression like to you? Well, it, it didn't really, it economically wise, I could see it, uh, hurting older people like parents because living conditions

00:20:01.250 - 00:20:17.619

were bad. Uh, this is when I mentioned before that my mother had to, uh, go to work and prior to going to this Mima spade factory she used to take in what we call bong washing, uh, would advertise that she would do laundry. And I would

00:20:17.619 - 00:20:30.750

own a bicycle, go pick up the dirty clothes and bring them home. My mother would wash and iron them and wrap them in a paper sack and, uh, in a paper, newspaper package. I'd put it on my bicycle and deliver it back to the people. How

00:20:30.750 - 00:20:51.060

much? Uh, like, uh, $1.25 a bundle and it'd probably be what the We would pay For just a normal wash for a, a single man for a week. Um. 1 dollar.5, $1.25 and that sort of thing. And your father was still at the packing house? Uh,

00:20:51.099 - 00:21:06.300

no, this, this, uh, the packing house, uh, problem, it's here again, the economic situation got bad. Two or three packing houses closed, and, uh, my dad was out of work and it was quite a while before he found employment again and he went to work for

00:21:06.300 - 00:21:22.439

JW Jenkins as a chauffeur. Uh, he did stay with the, the Jenkins family for a long time, but, uh, during his chauffeuring days he worked for some very important people in the Kansas City area, and, uh, I think we still have a relationship with those people

00:21:22.439 - 00:21:39.400

now because the Jenkins had kids and one of them today has a, a piano store on the plaza, Paul Jenkins, and he and I played together, yeah, because my father worked for his father and today we serve on boys club board together and. And I've offered

00:21:39.400 - 00:21:57.349

him, uh, the opportunity to serve on this coaches's council's board, but he's a very, very busy man. But uh I can remember the days when we played and I often wore his clothes because uh they had plenty and then we had nothing. Um, uh, how old

00:21:57.349 - 00:22:18.839

are you now? At the time we're talking about the. Around 16. All right, um, 16, what dance is everybody doing? Well, the camel walk, uh. Uh, the Charleston, could you do the Charleston pretty well? Oh, I could dance ballroom, yes, ballroom dancing. Uh, everybody had a

00:22:18.839 - 00:22:33.510

partner that they like to dance with when they'd have the school socials and being out of school, I would always go anyhow, uh, kind of a crash thing. But 10 kids are doing it today, but I can remember these dances, and it was, uh, upstairs over

00:22:33.510 - 00:22:48.199

Watkins' Old funeral home. Is that what? What was your favorite song? Poor butterfly. Poor butterfly. That was your song. That was my song, yes. Was that your girl's song too? No, I think she, uh, she had another song that I heard once in a while, and

00:22:48.199 - 00:23:05.829

it was the. Theme song of uh. Guy Lambor as he sang on. And uh and this I never will forget you da da da da da da and that's all he played that was just the introduction to his band and when I found out the name

00:23:05.829 - 00:23:19.550

of the song uh I think he had uh passed but I really found out the name of the song and now that it's being played even these days I'll never forget you was his theme. What was the, uh, uh, the attitude at that point at that

00:23:19.550 - 00:23:38.780

time about drinking? Well, did you drink that? Oh, no, uh. That was the corn whiskey area. Whiskey were like we buy today, it wasn't being sold at all. It was bootleg whiskey. Only the rich could buy what whiskeys was left because see that was the area

00:23:38.780 - 00:23:57.319

of prohibition. Mhm. And in Kansas it was dry and Missouri did have bootleggers and that sort of thing, but they. Made and cooked corn whiskey. What was your family, uh, churchgoing people? My mother was very religious. What church did she go to? Uh, in Kansas City,

00:23:57.400 - 00:24:14.119

she went to 24th and Woodland, the Christian church. Then later. In her life and she stayed many years with the Church of 13th and Garfield, the Metropolitan Spiritual Church, and was died the mother of that church. You can't remember the name of the other church. At

00:24:14.119 - 00:24:30.969

24th and Woodland, yeah, it was the, uh. Christian church, which is Christian church, yeah, right, and say subsidiary of it now is that, uh, Reverend Myers is it Myers. That's right. He separated. He was the assistant pastor of that church. That's, uh, what West Passell West,

00:24:30.979 - 00:24:48.550

yeah, all right. What church do you remember the church in Saint Louis? Yeah, uh. Alan Chapel, I think it was. Alan Chapel. It was a chapel, yeah. I believe it was Alan Chapel. There's one here too. Were, were, were kids smoking marijuana then? Not to my

00:24:48.550 - 00:25:01.579

knowing. I didn't know of any kids that used any kind of, uh, pills or drugs, uh, I didn't know of any. Um-hum. I knew of very few young people that drank. What was the, what, what was the hustle, um, during the, during the Depression era? I

00:25:01.579 - 00:25:14.979

mean, how was, were, were 18 year old, 1617, 18 year old kids getting old? Well, they would always spike the punch with some alcohol. No, no, I didn't mean that. I'm talking about as far as making money at that particular time. There were plenty of, uh,

00:25:15.760 - 00:25:34.209

low echelon jobs. You could always get a shoeshine job, uh, a porter job, and I mean in school kids could work after school paper routes. But, uh, and work at garages assisting mechanics, but if you needed a job as a boy in school or about school

00:25:34.209 - 00:25:53.930

age, there was no problem finding a job. They were all waiters, busboys, cooks, elevators, janitors, and all of them need help, and there were plenty of job opportunities in nowadays. Well, what, uh, this was Roosevelt then at this time. No way prior to that, uh, this

00:25:53.930 - 00:26:11.630

was even before Harding. And even before now? Well, I can't remember in back in rotation who was president. I think, I think that this is the recession right after the recession is Roosev uh, is, uh, is, uh, Roosevelt. Roosevelt come in just before the, oh, no,

00:26:11.729 - 00:26:37.310

we're past Teddy Rooseveltelt Teddy already. Because, uh Woodrow Wilson was after Roosevelt, Teddy Roosevelt. OK. All right, we're in, we're about 19, what, about 1925, 3 or 125, yeah, OK. Uh, are you married yet? No, not married yet, uh. Uh, I began swimming, not professionally but

00:26:37.310 - 00:26:48.739

for a living at the, at the Grove swimming pool or we call it the Paseo swimming pool now. You say for a living, what do you mean? Well, I worked for a salary as a lifeguard, as a lifeguard 20 years. I've got some pictures on here

00:26:48.739 - 00:27:02.839

now of the old swimming group there. Uh, I was a lifeguard on the parade for 20 years. How, how long did you stay with your people? I left home, uh, as far as living with my family, uh, around 14 years old and I was employed at

00:27:02.839 - 00:27:18.880

the Saint Regis Hotel. I, I was self-supporting. What's going on as far as the baseball thing is concerned? Well, I gave up sports. I got into the worlds of the wild and that sort of thing, and I learned how to, uh, gamble a little because I

00:27:18.880 - 00:27:37.290

was exposed to that at hotels, craps and cards, and I learned how to play cards. I had average intelligence. And was new uh novice at it, so it makes you a little extra lucky. Uh, and before I was 21, I was working in a commercial gambling

00:27:37.290 - 00:27:56.540

house for Felix Payne. Commercial gambling. That's right. At 18 combined 25 years. What, what are some of the clubs that you can remember on, on Vine? Nightclubs? Oh, I can name you 5 in one block, uh, the streets Blue Room. Uh, on this, uh, then the

00:27:56.540 - 00:28:15.430

next door was a subway in which they had a cabaret in the basement. gambling house on the 1st floor, a cab stand on the 2nd floor. On the corner of 18th and Vine, there was a drugstore. Uh, that formerly closed and was a nightclub there known

00:28:15.430 - 00:28:37.099

as Wolf's. Across the street was a. Levine shoe store. Father died. The son opened up a nightclub in the same shoe store. This was on the corner of 18th and Levine. That's northeast corner. Phil Levine's nightclub. Where Pinner's is now, but directly on the corner was

00:28:37.099 - 00:28:59.339

Fox's nightclub. Where the old theater building is been on the, between 18th and 19th was the uh Chez Pie, a large nightclub. Uh, on the corner of 19th and Vine was another nightclub known as, uh, Johnny Thomas's. Now at all these clubs that you've mentioned, where

00:28:59.339 - 00:29:19.250

did you hang? Subway. I worked upstairs and I Cabaret downstairs. Would you believe Martha Ray was a star in that basement? Ray Martha Ray was a star at that time at, in the subway basement. Did you, did you like it? Oh, I think it's very good.

00:29:19.780 - 00:29:34.229

Did, did, did, did, uh, uh, what are some of the other known black stars that came through that perhaps you might have seen? Did you see Charlie Parker? Well this is way before this is before Charlie, right? No, he, he worked, he worked at one of

00:29:34.229 - 00:29:50.810

the nightclubs I'm telling you about for $1.05 a night. What was he doing playing a saxophone at Wolf's nightclub on the northwest corner 18th Venue, Wolf's nightclub. All right. What was, now, the, the question I was, I was trying to ask you this a while ago

00:29:50.810 - 00:30:05.709

and we went off in another direction. It was a good direction. What was your hustle? How was Bubba Clyt's getting over? I was employed to operate your employment. Yo, how would you say you were shooting craps for a while, so you was playing cards for a

00:30:05.709 - 00:30:20.489

while. Was that your hustle? That wasn't my living. That was just my living. What kind of cars did you have? Uh, I think I had a dog. Do you remember what your uh what what's your wife's name again? You mentioned now deceased. My first wife was

00:30:20.489 - 00:30:44.300

Argana Starks, now deceased. Do you know what her mother's name was? Esther. Uh. Forgot the last name, but she had married again she wasn't a Starks. Her mother was not a Starks later. Esther Staples, yeah, she married Mr. Staples that was made all the monarch baseball

00:30:44.300 - 00:31:03.430

players right over here on the sale. OK, um, um, well, when was, when did the Monarchs baseball team actually start? When did it actually start, uh, about the year of, uh. 1921, 1922, about that time. In 1923, they built the stadium here on 23rd in Brooklyn.

00:31:04.150 - 00:31:24.369

And uh the blacks would play when the Blues were away, which was a Kansas City white team. They were, and at the end of the year, the very first year, 1923, the monarchs beat the best. team that they had in offering they were uh Foreign team

00:31:24.369 - 00:31:38.420

of the Yankees, they were known as the Kansas City Blues, but the Monarchs were the only place they practice was on the Paseo, on the Paso, but they did play in at New Bock Field or Rupert Stadium, and they've had several names for the building. Did

00:31:38.420 - 00:31:57.310

Eddie Holt play? No, Eddie Holt belonged to the Saint Louis team. And uh he began to be one of the greatest first basemen in black history. But was killed early in life. He didn't uh. He didn't have a long life in professional baseball. Um, uh, you

00:31:57.310 - 00:32:10.790

said that you worked alongside Charlie Parker. Was there anyone else that you worked beside? No, I didn't say I worked alongside him. I was very friendly with him because I worked in a nightclub and where he, uh, where he was employed, say a crap game on

00:32:10.790 - 00:32:30.300

one floor or gambling house on one floor and a cabaret ons. On, on the other side on the basement floor that was known as the subway and later he got a permanent job at the uh. At the Fox's Tavern. Did you ever try to play the

00:32:30.300 - 00:32:45.300

cornet professionally? Oh, no, I gave up the, I gave up the cornet when I left, left high school. Did you ever try to play baseball professionally? No, never did. I was never interested in nothing else but swimming until I got into boxing in 207. Mhm. All

00:32:45.300 - 00:33:05.839

right. How did you get into boxing? Well, uh, being in the nightlife, I met a young man from New York City named Freddie Snakehip Taylor. And uh his job, he left New York City on his way to Hollywood to teach the dance to whites in movies.

00:33:07.390 - 00:33:23.260

He stopped here at the Streets Hotel and at that time, there was a miniature golf course that run from Passo to Vine on the 17th Street side of the, uh, Of, uh, between Sale and Van and it was a miniature golf course and I beat him

00:33:23.260 - 00:33:41.619

out quite a bit of money playing miniature golf and I went with him to California. Mhm. When I got to California I got broke. He got fired. I got broke. He went back to New York to his parents, and I got into a battle royal. And

00:33:41.619 - 00:33:55.859

since that day I boxed. I was boxed as a professional. You got into a what? Battle royal. That's where a bunch of kids get in a ring at one time and one survivor, 5 or 6 at one time. Did you survive? No, I didn't survive, but,

00:33:55.869 - 00:34:11.520

uh, I made it very interesting so that I, the next smoker, and it was not an auditorium you fought in, you fought in smokers. And when we say smokers, it was smoke, uh, people throw money in the ring to you. That was the only salary you

00:34:11.520 - 00:34:26.080

got, and we would all chip in and divide the money up. We'd pick up the money in the ring after the fight is over and we'd all split equally, but there would be 56 fighters in one ring. It's called a battle royal. Uh, this give me

00:34:26.080 - 00:34:40.360

enough money to eat and. Stay in the YMCA. I think that cost me 90 cents a week to stay in the YMCA in a double room in California, in Los Angeles. Yes, uh, how long were you in LA? I fought out of LA, LA for about,

00:34:40.379 - 00:34:55.889

uh, 5 consecutive years. You stayed in LA, yes, and you boxed professionally for 5 years, right. Uh, uh, did you brush shoulders with any of the, any, any of the known greats at that time? Uh, not in competition, but I did have a chance to work

00:34:55.889 - 00:35:15.280

with about 3 world champions. Which ones? Uh, The first was, uh, a young man that Henry Armstrong fight, Moon Mullins. He was a bantamweight and, uh, later he was a featherweight and fought Henry Armstrong for a title, but I boxed him and weighing 115 pounds many

00:35:15.280 - 00:35:34.610

days at Third and Main Street Gym. I boxed another champion. His name was Speedy Daddo, and he was the coast champion, and I say from Mexico City to uh to Vancouver, V, uh, British Columbia. And I also fought him, but later he was a champion. But

00:35:34.610 - 00:35:49.219

I fought him and lost him a couple of times. And if I had to show my Fight is now on my record. Uh, I don't think they'd even come for lessons because I was a human punching bag. Did you ever see Jack Johnson? I toured with

00:35:49.219 - 00:36:08.189

Jack Johnson for more than a year. Uh, I think that 19. 31. I went on a tour out of Los Angeles with Jack Johnson and we toured the entire West Coast, putting on exhibitions. He had been the former champion of the world and had the most

00:36:08.189 - 00:36:19.800

beautiful style of a heavyweight you ever saw in your life. If you think Cassius Clay could dance like a butterfly, you should have seen Jack Johnson. He would catch punches out in the air. He didn't have his hands down, that sort of thing, and I thought

00:36:19.800 - 00:36:33.699

he was the greatest in the world. What kind of a human being was he? Well, he was orientated to white girls, and he married three of them. One reason he lost his title. What kind of a human being was he? He was a, a, a humanitarian.

00:36:34.929 - 00:36:53.139

He loved people and he would spend all of his money on people. Knowing them or not, he was always a help financially to people and he was a, a good Southern. Human being just and his love was people. Did he teach you anything? No, he didn't

00:36:53.139 - 00:37:09.699

teach me anything, but he gave me an opportunity to to to make more money. Uh, after his tour, this one-year tour, he opened up the first mixed nightclub in Los Angeles on Central Avenue at Forty-First Street, known as Club Alabama. That's what he did with his

00:37:09.699 - 00:37:25.199

tour money. Did he ever come through here? He lived at 12th and Garfield. Sarah Rector lived at 12th and Euclid, and Jack Johnson owned a house at 12th and Garfield. The rail still stands there now. The fence, concrete fence still stands on the north. West corner

00:37:25.199 - 00:37:49.570

of 12th and Garfield, where is the Lincoln apartments now. If you look at the Garfield side, you'll still see the concrete fence running up Garfield and around 12th Street. It's cold-blooded. Um, um. Going past Jack Johnson now, uh. When I started on the tour with Jack

00:37:49.570 - 00:38:08.729

Johnson, which lasted, uh, nearly a year, I'd say 10 months, uh, I've made enough money and I was vacationing in, uh, Seattle and Vancouver, British Columbia. And I found out that my mother here in Kansas City was a diabetic victim. I came home in 1932, which

00:38:08.729 - 00:38:24.010

was the end of the Johnson tour, and I never did participate in professional boxing anymore. You said something that I want, I'd like for you to reflect on again. You said as a former heavyweight champion, this after he lost his title in Cuba, uh, in Havana,

00:38:24.209 - 00:38:43.540

in Havana. Yes. All right, this is way after. Was he still a pretty popular person? Definitely, definitely. What, what, what, what, what, what, what was the attitude of, let's say blacks. Uh, in regards to Jack Johnson at that particular time. Attitudes toward black boxers, we'll have

00:38:43.540 - 00:39:00.280

to say, uh, they, they did not integrate boxing. If you notice when Jack Johnson won or lost a title, being the champion of the world, it was out of this country. In those days there were only a few states that had integrated boxing, New Orleans for

00:39:00.280 - 00:39:16.379

one. Uh. Southern California, for one. And uh it's just maybe 3 or 4 more. Do they feel that he had lost his title? Do they still call him champ or what? Did they? No, I, I think it was, uh, publicly known that he had, uh, took

00:39:16.379 - 00:39:28.060

a dive or falsely give away the title. Do you think he took a dive? Sure, I'm sure he did. We all know he did. OK, well, I mean, you know, in, in looking at it now, a lot of things have been said about that particular fight.

00:39:29.120 - 00:39:40.260

Uh, uh, uh, you think he took a dive? I don't think so. I heard it from the horse's mouth. OK, let's move on. I heard it from the horse's mouth. Who was the next fighter to influence you? Let's say. Did you ever meet Joe Louis? Uh,

00:39:40.439 - 00:39:55.360

many times. Did you meet him while he was boxing? I met him. I've had him in, uh, both in the military, boxing for or under my supervision. I also had him train in my gym here in Kansas City about 4 or 5 times here, here in

00:39:55.360 - 00:40:13.850

Kansas City in this building. At the Tracy Center, Tracy Center Tracy Center, yeah. Uh, what kind of fella is he? Uh, not well educated, but, uh, here again, uh, a sympathetic southern boy, and when I, I keep using the word southern boy because I think people

00:40:13.850 - 00:40:30.149

of the South are more sympathetic and more closely knit as black folks, mhm, uh, rather than northern born or let's say of our younger day. Uh, young people, when I go to Las Vegas and I say Bubba Clyt sent me, is that gonna mean anything? All

00:40:30.149 - 00:40:41.659

you gotta do is say to KC Kidd. That's all you go to Caesar's. That's where you, that's where you'll catch him. What did you think of, uh, Sonny Liston? I thought he's the greatest fighter of his time. I don't think he was ever defeated. You don't

00:40:41.659 - 00:41:00.290

think I don't think he was ever defeated. What do you mean? By the same rule that Jack Johnson lost in Havana, I think one time he lost on the stool, the next time he was on the floor, but neither time was it legitimate. Floyd Patterson. I

00:41:00.290 - 00:41:13.649

thought he was a great fighter but too young. He was also on a team that, uh, I coached, uh, when he won the world title at the, at the Olympics. At the Olympics. Yes, I coached him here in Kansas City and also took him from Kansas

00:41:13.649 - 00:41:28.590

City for the Olympic trials in Frisco. From Frisco, he went and represented this country as a heavyweight for the, in the Olympics. What other dealings have you had with the Olympics? Uh, not so much with the Olympics because it's only every 4 years, but I have

00:41:28.590 - 00:41:45.620

contributed, uh, young men to the program as far as Olympic trials and Pan American Games. It's known as the AAU in which I'm a very old member at. What about Igormar Johansson? Well, I don't think much of his boxing ability. I think he was another rough,

00:41:45.659 - 00:42:00.770

tough heavyweight, but I, I mean, uh, Bonavilla. Same thing, uh, I think we saw, uh, Archie Moore, that was really a light heavy. Uh, he beat them all when he was a light heavy before he had opportunity to make some big money as a heavyweight. So,

00:42:02.199 - 00:42:19.419

I thought he was one of the world's greatest. He come from the same same lot, uh, uh, as the gateway is to Saint Louis, Slaughter's they see in Saint Louis is comparable or in the same situation. Uh, and Mr. Slaughter Black started all the black boxers

00:42:19.719 - 00:42:41.959

of Saint Louis as we did here with the Gateway in Kansas City. And many good fighters come out of his, uh, many well-known fighters come out of the Slaughter's AC. What about, uh, um, um, fighters, and we're talking about fighters. What about um Yeah, Sydney Walker

00:42:41.959 - 00:42:56.120

is his name. I boxed in the name of Sugar Ray, and the reason he did he boxed in somebody's place. He belonged to, uh, the Salem Crescent, New York. I remember him as an amateur and I remember him as a pro. He also trained and fought

00:42:56.120 - 00:43:16.419

right here in Kansas City under our supervision and promotion. Sugar Ray Robinson. Yes, his name was what, what again? Sydney Walker. OK, um, um. To you, Bubbles Christ, who is the best all-around fighter? That you've ever seen. Well, we can't, uh, we got three categories of

00:43:16.419 - 00:43:40.939

Heavyweight. Oh, heavyweight. I would say Cassius Clay. Cassius Clay. Why do you call him Cassius Clay? That's his name. I just gave you Ray Robinson's name. Uh Uh, lightweight, lightheaded weight. Uh, I have to say Archie Moore. OK, and what's up? Middleweightweight. Well, it was, uh,

00:43:41.020 - 00:43:55.199

if you can remember in the days of Tony Zale and Graziano, I had a young man named Jackie Dorson that was killed in the ring in 1948, that could beat both of them, but he was the 4th middleweight of the world when he died. So I

00:43:55.199 - 00:44:14.189

would say that uh Robinson again would have to rank in there because he had also beat the same fellas, but he was really his greatest as a welterweight but he did fight in 3 different championship weights. He lost to, uh, Merritt from Cleveland. I, I hate

00:44:14.189 - 00:44:29.399

to put you, I hate to put you in this kind of spot. Who's the baddest dude you ever coached? Is he coached the forest here again now when you talk about weight, heavyweight. Uh, I would say I have to say Al Jordan, probably, probably don't mean

00:44:29.399 - 00:44:53.209

much to you, but yes, Al Jordan was one of my best heavyweights. Were your best students? Yes, OK, uh, middleweight. Uh, I'd have to say Major Jones. Major Jones, and, uh, lightheadweight. Leroy Jeffries. Leroy Jeffries. OK. Um, I in in the years that you have been

00:44:53.209 - 00:45:17.679

involved with uh with boxing both professionally and amateur, uh, what transition have you seen take place racially? Well, I've seen the. I've seen the game turn from, uh, brawn to science, and I'm talking about black and white. I've seen the game turn to where, uh, blacks

00:45:17.939 - 00:45:33.280

or minorities dominated the sport. At one time out of the 11 weights, there were 9 black champions at one time. Alright, good. I, I have a real heavy question for you. I want you to deal on this now. We're talking about fighting and we're talking about

00:45:33.280 - 00:45:49.739

ethics. You said that the two, the, the two of the fight you, you said on the tape that two of the fighters that you admired most was Jack Johnson at one time and was Muhammad Ali. OK. Jack Johnson, uh, uh, gave you a very clear statement

00:45:49.739 - 00:46:04.800

as to his, his, his, his, his losing the fight. He said that he threw the fight. Alright, ethics. Alright, we're talking about Muhammad Ali and you said that you felt that that that Sonny Liston through the fight. Deal with that. Are you, are you saying that

00:46:04.800 - 00:46:19.719

throwing a fight is a part of ethics or the ring? I don't say it's a part of ethics. I, I say it's a part of living. Uh, let me tell you something about the business world of Boxing Day. If you are a nobody. And you don't

00:46:19.719 - 00:46:38.550

listen to contracts and agreement and Financial opportunities, then you'll always be a nobody in the business of professional boxing. There's no such thing that I could take. Uh, I'm a black man. There's no way if I had all the money and you know that Blackburn, not

00:46:38.550 - 00:46:54.709

Blackburn, but uh, the two black managers that Joe Louis had, he didn't make any money until they put in the white boy with them. Then he got an opportunity to fight for the world's title, and this also happened to Ray Robinson. He had no opportunity until

00:46:54.709 - 00:47:09.770

he went back to the same man that started them with some white help. But answer my question, ethic wise, I think you gotta leave ethics out. You're either in the business to make, uh, uh, money. We're not boxing for glory. They are boxing to make money

00:47:09.989 - 00:47:24.909

and if you don't go by what you call ethics. Let's talk about what syndicates are saying, what big business is saying, and you can put that in the field of ethics if you like and let ethics keep no money in your pocket. So ethically, wait a

00:47:24.909 - 00:47:40.659

minute. Coaching for the last 40 years, right, right, 40, how many years? 41 years. 41 years. Now this is the philosophy that you have, you have, you have lived by as far as your boxing, uh, your boxing is concerned. Well, you, you live by it, period.

00:47:40.770 - 00:47:58.080

That's right. You have to. What would you tell a young man that that that that that that's that's boxing at the municipal auditorium and and that has been been been bribed. Well, let's don't get the amateur field confused with making a living as a professional fighter.

00:47:58.560 - 00:48:17.370

There's two different ball games, two different worlds. An amateur fighter creates and accepts no money at all, no money. So you see, we are, we're not talking about the same thing in the world of professional boxing. Then, uh, you use the word ethics just now, but

00:48:17.370 - 00:48:37.120

you throw that in the John and you go for the money, wherever the most money is. Create for me, a situation where it would be ethical for me to take a, a $100,000 dive. Uh, well, in the, uh, Muhammad Ali fight and And listen. Now, not

00:48:37.120 - 00:48:49.139

only so much are you gonna make the money. But your life is at stake if you don't do it, and I tell you what I know I can deal with that. I'll tell you what I know. That's one reason I'm out of the business now. All

00:48:49.139 - 00:49:05.610

right, we're going back on, uh, going back in time again, we're, we're about 1930, I think, with about with, with the 2030, we're about 30 right before, uh, all right. Uh, uh, what's going on in your world in 1930? Well, I was a professional boxer in

00:49:05.610 - 00:49:22.260

1930. I can't married yet? Yes, I was a boxer while I was married. Any children? No children. No children. Do you have any children now? Yes, by, by one daughter, by a third wife. What was your, when did you marry your second wife? Uh. Of 1940.

00:49:23.399 - 00:49:37.600

Well, during the war, during the war, during World War II, did you participate in World War II? I sure did. 3 years in Europe. What? As, as an army soldier. So did you, you actually fought? I have 5 brown Stars. You have 5 brown Stars. All

00:49:37.600 - 00:49:52.850

right. Did you do any boxing in the military? Yes, I went into special service after the war was mostly won in Europe, and I handled boxing, basketball. And baseball. Did you and Joe Louis bum shoulders? I'm talking about. Yes, sir. We put on many fights in,

00:49:53.159 - 00:50:11.510

in the same area of France. I went clean down to Switzerland with Joe Louis, yeah, special service. Uh, did you enjoy your time in the military? Yes, every, every day except my combat days. OK, uh, uh, what did the war, how did the war affect you,

00:50:11.800 - 00:50:26.199

Miss? Well, I guess the war has the same effect on all soldiers, you. You, you would, uh, have gladly wouldn't accept a million dollars for the experience you had, but if you, if you had it, you would give the million dollars not to go through it

00:50:26.199 - 00:50:38.570

again. Uh, I think the war taught a lot of us. It was very fruitful to me. I came home with a lot of money. Uh, I got a, I got a lot of travel and I met, met a lot of friends which I still have now

00:50:38.570 - 00:50:50.810

through my military days. So, so it was a great advantage for me. For some soldiers it wasn't, wasn't too fruitful. Did you get any other awards other than the the four Brown Stars while you were there? No, that was only in active service with the amphibians

00:50:50.810 - 00:51:02.580

where we put in all combat areas we had a vehicle that put fighting men from ship to shore. That that's what you did. Yes, I was in the amphibians. OK, uh, and how long were you in the military then? Uh, before I was in special service.

00:51:02.760 - 00:51:17.350

Now, how long were you in the military? Three years. Three years, and, well, over 3 years from 3 years, 6 months, from what year to what year? From 42 to 45 till the war end till November. Yes, till after V-Day. Yes. Then what then, uh, did,

00:51:17.520 - 00:51:31.280

did you participate in V-Day, D-Day? I certainly did. You did. I, I have it on my discharge. Yes. What did you think of, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, Douglas MacArthur? Well, Only what I read, and I don't have too much opinion about him because I didn't

00:51:31.280 - 00:51:44.830

serve under MacArthur. Who'd you serve under? Uh, the first army in Europe. Uh, his name was Hodges. Hodges. I was in the first army and went to Europe. Did you ever meet Hodges? No. Being a fighter, a lot of times, you know. Never met any of

00:51:44.830 - 00:51:56.989

the brace. OK. Uh, what, what was your reception like in Europe? I'm sure that all the fighting you did was not as, was not as a, as a, as an army man. I'm sure that you did some fighting on your own, you know, boxing, didn't you?

00:51:57.149 - 00:52:10.989

No, I never, I never boxed since I quit professionally other than in an amateur gym to show a kid one or two punches. In fact, I haven't put a, put a glove on to show any kid anything since, uh, about 1940. Uh, well, how, how did

00:52:10.989 - 00:52:25.429

you like France? or how did you like being there? You know, well, I young black men that, that, that they could catch a fly and all, you know, like, let me, let me say during the military days in, in overseas countries you had, uh, uh, you

00:52:25.429 - 00:52:38.149

had some liberties, you go anywhere you want, but there was always a harassment of black boys got tails and this sort of thing and there was a lot of integrating now and that sort of thing and a lot of, uh, sexual things going on as like

00:52:38.149 - 00:52:49.879

any other military. Area. Did any Mademoiselles tell you to pull your pants down and see if they had a tails? No, but a lot of them pull my pants down and done something else. You want that on tape. Yeah, there it is. So I'm saying that,

00:52:49.889 - 00:53:04.159

uh, that, uh, there were some opportunities of, of knowing. What other countries do as far as black and white respect, but I would rather be a second-class citizen in this United States than to be a citizen anywhere else in the world. Are you an American? Yes,

00:53:04.280 - 00:53:22.270

sir. All right, um. Let me see, we're at 1945. The war is over. Where, where, where are you? Back in Kansas City? Yes, 1945. You came straight back to Kansas City. Yes sir, uh, to what? To, to my amateur boxing club and started a professional stable.

00:53:23.120 - 00:53:46.989

OK. Uh, and, uh, From 1945 to 1948 When I retired from professional boxing by losing the 4th middleweight of the world in a death at in at ringside. I retired. That was in 1948 of March. What happened? He was killed in the ring. Jackie Dorford, by

00:53:46.989 - 00:54:04.229

who? Burt Littel, the number one light heavyweight and middleweight contender. He was killed and he died the next morning in the rain. I thought more of Dour as not as a boxer but as a As a son, and that broke my heart. But at that time,

00:54:04.310 - 00:54:22.080

I had 3 middleweights that were in the 1st 10 of the whole world. I had 2 welterweights that were in the 1st 10 of the whole world. I had 31 black, white, and Mexicans as a stable, and I made a lot of money. Now if we

00:54:22.080 - 00:54:39.800

get back to ethics again. I have had some boys that I say, you're going to Minneapolis and you're gonna fight Spider Armstrong and you're gonna lose in the 8th round. Do you want it? Then I tell him how much money is involved ethically he said yes

00:54:40.050 - 00:54:54.679

and so I know what I'm talking about so I'm saying that the business of boxing is when you read the paper and this sort of thing it's a business and a big business so ethically is a good word to use, but reality is a better one.

00:54:56.800 - 00:55:12.959

All right. In all of your life, who influenced you the most, Mr. Clyde? I mean they, they, they really today, you can say left an impression upon you that you live by. You mean in the field of boxing or just living? Well, I, I, I have

00:55:12.959 - 00:55:27.520

never forgot the teachings of my mother and today I, I think everybody knows me. I kill people with the truth. It's something I've done all my life. Uh, I think I've been inspired by my third wife. I think she's really turned me all around to be

00:55:27.520 - 00:55:45.199

a prudent. Grown up man, what's her name? Her name is Myrtle was Myrtle Allen. Now it's Miss Kleis, Myrtle C Kleis. She's a counselor in the school system. What school? Martin Luther King. No, uh, uh, how long have you been married? Uh, since 1946, January of

00:55:45.199 - 00:56:04.770

1946. This is your daughter's mother, actually, OK. Uh, where is she originally from? Uh, some little town in Arkansas, another Arkansas. She's an Arkansasian. Uh, uh, uh, do you, do you, do you know her mother's name? Yes, Gertrude Allen. Gertrude Allen, her father's name. Now deceased,

00:56:04.820 - 00:56:24.209

uh, CJ Allen. What church does your, does your, does Miss uh Cla belong? Pura Baptist Church. Pastor. Uh, Briscoe, mhm, uh, how long had she been there? All of her adult life, her and her parents, I'm also a member of that. Out of, out of all

00:56:24.209 - 00:56:39.350

the presidents that, that, that you've been asso that that you've seen come and go, which one did you like the best? And the one that was assassin. From, uh, the one of the Roosevelt's that was assassin, what's his name, the young one. Kennedy, the Kennedy, that's

00:56:39.350 - 00:56:51.520

what I'm talking about, the Kennedy, yeah, you like. Oh, I thought he was the greatest. Yes, what, what did you think of, uh, of, of Nixon? Really, I didn't think much of him. I could think, I think Tricky Dick fits in. I think the name got

00:56:51.520 - 00:57:04.870

it. What about LBJ? I thought he was a good president, but we talked about the best. I think next to Kennedy, I thought LBJ was the, was a good president. What about Harry Truman? I thought he told it like it was, but I didn't think he,

00:57:04.949 - 00:57:16.780

uh, he was strictly a politician. I know him from my boyhood days right in Kansas City. Personally I knew him. Did you ever, uh, hear of Reverend Holmes? Yes. What did you think of Reverend I opened my first boxing club under the guidance of Reverend Holmes.

00:57:17.070 - 00:57:28.429

What kind of individual was he? Well, I thought he was a good, uh, religious leader, but he was also a politician, and I don't think the two combines. What about Pendergast? I knew him very well. I worked for him for a while. What, what? Tell me

00:57:28.429 - 00:57:44.850

about it. Well, through the gambling effort. I told you I worked in a gambling house for 25 years, and at that time, politics run all the vice in the city. What other vice did he run? Bootlegging. And gambling, nightclubs and etc. We're not dealing with prostitution

00:57:44.850 - 00:57:57.850

at all at that time, right? No, no, OK, that's small money. Uh, did you ever, uh, uh, uh, uh, did you ever see Marcus Garvey when he came to, yes. How did he inspire you? Well, I thought he had a whole lot of good, uh, conversations,

00:57:57.929 - 00:58:10.419

but I don't see why I wanna go back to Africa. I was never there, nohow. Uh, Marcus Garvey was, uh, terrifically bent on getting a group of blacks to either get a state here and have it, uh, a segregated area, and I listened to talk many

00:58:10.419 - 00:58:24.260

times. And uh here right here in Kansas City, I listen to him talk many times and in some other cities, but the only thing I disagreed with, I don't think that we should as a black group should go to no place and claim uh any area.

00:58:24.379 - 00:58:36.330

I think that's segregation. I don't wanna be separated. What about segregation? What about WEB Du Bois? Uh, no, don't know much about him, only in what I read. I think he, uh, I think he was a great black leader from what I've read, but, uh, I

00:58:36.330 - 00:58:53.189

don't know much about his actual principles and if he was saying and doing things that he was telling us about, whether he really felt that way or whether, whether he was making a living. Uh, what about Elijah Muhammad? Well, I can respect the, uh, the Muslim

00:58:53.189 - 00:59:06.810

program, because I think it is a very good program and I have studied the Quran as a shriner. But here again, I don't believe that whites are devils, so I just a few things that I disagree on. Secondly, I have 3 things I don't talk about.

00:59:07.250 - 00:59:19.449

I don't wanna talk about black and white. I don't wanna talk about religion and I don't wanna talk about politics. I mean any discussion, but, uh, I try to eliminate these 3, and if I can have a conversation without getting into details about any of these

00:59:19.449 - 00:59:32.379

3 subjects, then I think, uh, we're gonna have a beautiful friendship, you know, whoever I talked to? How long have you been a shriner? Uh, since 1947. Who took you into the shrine? Uh, a bar, a bartender named Kingfish took me into the Mason's. Bartender where?

00:59:32.899 - 00:59:49.370

Crescendo Lounge, Thirty-ninth in Indiana. Um, um, what degree are you now? 32, 32 degrees of masonry and a shrining. I wear 32 on my arm. How, how do you feel about being a member of an organization that has two separate, uh, uh, constituencies? You have a

00:59:49.370 - 01:00:02.419

white side and you have a black side. How do you feel about that? Well, I don't feel it's, uh, right, the same as the rights of minority citizens prior to the, uh, days of the law of equalization. I don't think it's right. But, uh, I think

01:00:02.419 - 01:00:17.020

it's gonna come to a head and if we're gonna talk about fraternities and fraternal organizations, there are places in the country where there is no separation between fraternal groups. We just happen to live in an area where there's a white shrine and a black shrine, but

01:00:17.020 - 01:00:26.270

they all studied the same thing. And all respected. Where's your lodge? Kansas City, Kansas, 5th in Washington. What's the name of it? Pride of the West, number 50.