00:00:00.310 - 00:00:28.309

Director of the Black Archives of Mid-America. Today is October 7th, 1976. The time is 3:08 p.m. I'm interviewing Mr. Arthur Hayden Bronson Jr. Um, I would like for this tape to go into political sciences under political sciences, period. Um, first of all, uh, uh, can you

00:00:28.309 - 00:00:45.500

give me your full name? Arthur Hayden Bronson Jr. the 2nd. Alright, uh, uh, I'll just refer to you as Arthur from here on, OK. Uh, first of all, where were you born, man? I was born in Kansas City, Kansas, uh, 1950. What hospital? Uh, Saint Margaret's.

00:00:45.630 - 00:01:02.849

OK. Do you remember who the, the physi the physician was? No, I don't. OK, um, what's your mother's name? My mother's name is Helen Bronson. OK. Does she, does she have a middle initial? Uh, Olivia. OK. Um, your father, Arthur Hayden Bronson Jr. Where is, um,

00:01:02.970 - 00:01:23.360

your mother from? She's from Sedalia, Missouri, about 80 miles from here. OK. Do you know either of her, her, uh, parents' names, being your grandparents? Right, uh, Her father's name was Fins Green and her mother's name was Josephine Green. And they were also from, from Sedalia

00:01:23.559 - 00:01:44.959

in central Missouri. OK, uh, do you know the circumstances of Of your great of your grandparents coming to Missouri. OK, uh, my family and relationship to the family tree that I can basically trace goes back to where on my grandmother's side were Swedish immigrants and on

00:01:44.959 - 00:02:11.229

my grandfather's side, um, were Indian and black immigrants, uh, from. The eastern part. of Ohio and Indiana moving westward and settled in central Missouri. Do you know the names of the Swedish ancestor Cox, Cox. The Indian, what type of Indian? Indian was su in Blackfoot, OK.

00:02:11.619 - 00:02:35.309

Um, do you know, uh, what generation of, of, of black people. Um, do you know? From where they came from, OK, as far as that's concerned, they were from the Virginia, South Carolina, North Carolina area. Were they freedmen? No, they were slaves. Yes. All right, now

00:02:35.309 - 00:02:55.470

on your father's side, uh, uh, he was originally from where? Uh, he was, he was born and raised here in Kansas City, um. His mother and father were. Born in Oklahoma, what were their names? Um, my grandfather's name was Arthur Bronson and the mother name was

00:02:55.470 - 00:03:19.020

Mary, and they were from Oklahoma, right. Is this what the the Indian ancestry can write. Alright, um. Let me see. Uh. How many brothers and sisters do you have? OK, I have 22 sisters and 1 brother. OK. Are you the oldest of those people? OK, uh,

00:03:19.139 - 00:03:32.550

um, to what elementary school did you attend? I went to DA homeschool until the 5th grade, and then I went to Booker T for 1 year, the 6th grade. Do you remember, uh, what the principal's name when you started at Booker T was? Um, the principal

00:03:32.550 - 00:03:49.990

at Booker T. was, uh, Kathleen Davis, and your, your first grade teacher is. Can you remember any of your teachers? I can remember, I can remember all my teachers. Uh, my first grade teacher at DA Holmes was Mrs. Porter. 2nd grade teacher was Mrs. Hawkins. 3rd

00:03:49.990 - 00:04:17.799

grade was Mrs. Robinson, 4th grade, Mrs. Russell, 5th grade, Mr. Kane. 6th grade at Booker T. Did you, all right, what year did you transfer from Booker T? Um. 19. 61. To what school? To to Booker T. Of these teachers that you had, and you can

00:04:17.799 - 00:04:39.459

remember so well, which one of them stood out perhaps the best? OK. I would say it would have to be Ms. Porter, my 1st grade teacher, and Ms. Russell, my 4th grade teacher. Um, Do you remember any of your friends at that particular age? Yes, what

00:04:39.459 - 00:05:09.510

was that, uh, James Hadley, Thomas John Hobby. Uh, Wendell Willis. Ronald Patterson. Um, uh, Kenneth King. Artis Artis Jones. What were you living in? Uh, this time I was living in the 2600 block of Wabash. Do you remember the exact address? 2622 Wabash. To what church

00:05:09.510 - 00:05:29.399

did you attend at that time? I attend at that time was Centennial Methodist Church at 19th of Woodland. Pastor. The pastor was Reverend Reynolds. Then Reverend Grey and then now Reverend Kincaid. Did your, did your mother and father, uh, participate much in church, uh. Not too

00:05:29.399 - 00:05:48.399

much. Not too much. My father, uh, Which he still does, prays every day. Uh, he attended Saint Stephen's for a long time but never went regularly, and my mother never did go regularly. She would go you baptized? Yes. What year were you baptized? I was baptized

00:05:48.399 - 00:06:12.519

in 1961 by who? By Reverend Gray. OK, um, I'm sorry, Reverend Reynolds Reynolds. Um, at that particular time, um, what type of a person was really evolving, and could you say it? Could you say? What do you mean what type of I'm talking about. What type

00:06:12.519 - 00:06:44.850

of a young man were you at the age of 10 years old? I was To my own, looking back, I was. Feel free. Um, felt. Not spoiled but uh felt uh responsive uh Most of my basic needs have been met by my parents, uh. Uh, yeah.

00:06:45.609 - 00:07:10.029

You know, like to play sports. TV at that time, uh, Like to uh hunt. OK With the BB guns and bow and arrows back in those days, and at that time I think I was more enthused about raising German shepherds and training German shepherds at that

00:07:10.029 - 00:07:31.160

time. Did, did you have any type of an idea of the world outside of your little block, let's say, not, not until later on as being a high school student. I lived in, I lived in, I say in a false sense. Of uh Or non-reality, false

00:07:31.160 - 00:07:46.760

reality, right? You know, the, the fact was that uh things were happening outside uh. It didn't affect me, so you know, I would look at it on news but didn't understand what I was looking at. Did you, was your father working pretty regularly, right? He worked

00:07:46.760 - 00:08:04.359

every day. What kind of occupation? Uh, he's, he's been a taxicab driver for the last 35 years? Uh, first for my grandfather who owned Pcell cab company that used to be at 18th, uh, and Vine, and then in 1964 he started driving for Yellow Cab. Uh,

00:08:04.440 - 00:08:30.570

and what's your mother's occupation? Um, my, my mother's present occupation, she is a, uh, Um, Salesperson for uh Watkins Brothers sells burial plans to Watkins Brothers Funeral Home. Um, What type of um. Uh, a, a, a, a, a mental situation. Did that put you in as

00:08:30.570 - 00:08:49.409

far as having parents that worked every day, um, let's say at that particular age? Well, for my father in particular, because he worked 16 hours a day, every day except for Sunday, and it was kind of like growing up where my father wasn't there, but then

00:08:49.409 - 00:09:07.099

he was there because when he was there he was asleep because he was tired from working 16 hours a day shifts driving a cab. But what he tried to do. To, uh, I would say help us relax and to be with his kids, uh, he would

00:09:07.099 - 00:09:27.479

spend, you know, Sundays with us. We'd go to picnics, go to the park, down to Cruz Park, play baseball, and do different kinds of family kinds of outings, you know, and, uh. It was uh. You know, learning certain, certain principles that he laid down as far

00:09:27.479 - 00:09:42.559

as work was concerned because, uh, he had to work those kinds of hours in order to provide for our family, you know, and that was understood, you know, sometimes I would wait up for him. You know, late at night and he wouldn't come home because he

00:09:42.559 - 00:09:57.280

would still be working and when I woke up in the morning he was already gone back to work. What, what did that do for you today? Well, it showed me one thing is that not just uh in this particular society today, you know, the man of

00:09:57.280 - 00:10:15.919

the household as well as the woman of the household has to support the family together, you know, uh, we were not middle class by any. Uh, sense of the word, uh, working class parents because, uh, my father worked 16 hours a day, my mother worked 8

00:10:15.919 - 00:10:35.520

hours a day in order to provide for us. So within my life, in my life, that's one basic guideline that I follow because it's not a question of the woman staying at home, uh, and watching the kids and cleaning the house. It's a, it's nec necessary

00:10:35.520 - 00:10:54.950

for both. Uh, adults in the household to work to help provide, you know, for the family. Um, where did you attend high school? I, I attended high school at Lincoln High. What year did you start there? I started there in 1964 and graduated in 196968. Um

00:10:57.169 - 00:11:15.739

Tell me about you as a freshman at Lincoln High School. Me as a freshman, I was wild. I was, uh, Irresponsible in the sense of doing, you know, foolish things that kids would do, uh, at that, at that particular age. I, I had a sense of

00:11:15.739 - 00:11:36.150

didn't care. Uh, I, I did a lot of clowning. Had you been shocked at all at this point? I'm talking about about life, as of yet. Did anybody died or anything that shook you, OK, in 1960, my father's father, uh, passed. I was 10 years old.

00:11:36.530 - 00:11:54.590

That shook me to a certain degree because, uh, like my father, he was a working man who worked to try to build a small cab company. Small black cab company where uh were you able to make that distinction as of yet? Yes, OK, yes, because I

00:11:54.590 - 00:12:12.010

would hear, you know, my grandfather and my father talk my mother talk about um how black cabs at that particular time couldn't go to certain areas to pick up, uh, you know, passengers. Can you remember which areas those were, um. Like in front of the mule

00:12:12.010 - 00:12:28.729

box, different places like that. I mean, this is like in the late 50s when this was going on, you know, uh and different other places, you know, like the plaza. Uh, you know, those were, they were, they were off limits to black cab drivers. Black cab

00:12:28.729 - 00:12:46.489

drivers stayed basically within the 12th Street, you know, Brooklyn prospect, you know, coming southward, you know, the 27th Street like that. What type of a student were you at this particular point? OK, at that particular point I was a very bright student, and it's not ego

00:12:46.489 - 00:13:08.349

tripping, but, uh. My ability to learn, my ability to score on tests, my ability to study helped me a lot. It helped me to the point where I had an attitude where teachers couldn't tell me anything because I I thought that I knew it all. You

00:13:08.349 - 00:13:28.750

know, and, uh, that's one reason or excuse I should say for me doing a lot of clowning in classes because, uh, I felt that this this teacher couldn't teach me. What were your grades like uh my grades like throughout high school were above average, uh, in

00:13:28.750 - 00:13:48.130

some cases they were, they were average. Now in certain incidents when it comes to self control. Uh, the things of this nature I got below or inferior simply because of my behavior at that particular time in, in school, you know, uh, I had the ability to

00:13:48.130 - 00:14:04.210

learn. I score high on tests, you know, answered questions from the teachers and everything, but my self control, they took into consideration when giving me a final grade, you see what I'm saying, were you, what kind of PE student were you? Um, I was a pretty

00:14:04.210 - 00:14:28.359

good PE students, uh. Um, I, I like to swim, uh, I like to play football. I played football in Lincoln, uh, varsity, uh, no, I didn't play varsity ball. I played freshman and junior and junior varsity. I was knocked out of a, a chance to play

00:14:28.359 - 00:14:48.369

varsity well. Because of my eligibility, my eligibility in the sense of that, uh, the time when I was trying out for varsity, I was also taking a vocational training at Central High School in Electronics, so you had to be at Lincoln a certain amount of hours

00:14:48.369 - 00:15:01.559

in order to qualify for sports, and I was at Central, like 3 hours of the day, like half the day at Central and half the day at Lincoln, so I really didn't have the time. You know, or the eligibility, you know, to play, you know, varsity

00:15:01.559 - 00:15:25.400

football. What kind of an athlete were you becoming? Well, um, from the time I was a freshman, when I played freshman football, I weighed 155 pounds. When my senior year came, I was 195 pounds. Uh, doing, doing, I'd say from 64 to 68, uh. By putting

00:15:25.400 - 00:15:46.119

on the weight and growing, still growing and what have you, I began to work out with weights, uh, wrestle at the YMCA downtown, uh, and this helped me, you know, develop my, my physical characteristics. What had your, um, What had your community, how, how had it

00:15:46.119 - 00:16:10.039

been expanded by, let's say you're, uh, your senior year in high school? OK. I would say that uh. Community, the black community where I'm from, uh, black folks who already live in the southern part of Kansas City. Uh, black folks were being accepted at Southeast High

00:16:10.039 - 00:16:34.109

School. Um, so the original boundaries of supposedly the black community in the 50s had advanced a good 30 blocks going south, uh, a good 15 blocks going. East, you know, uh, because at that time, uh, village, not Village Green, but, uh, Vineyard Gardens was a white

00:16:34.559 - 00:16:58.169

suburbban. Had you, uh, had you Let's say by your senior year, uh, developed an identity. Oh yes. Before my senior year. And what was the circumstances for that? OK. In 1965, uh, the Watts riot. I, I asked questions at school, at home as to why were

00:16:58.169 - 00:17:18.890

black folks riot rioting, burning, what have you in Los Angeles, uh, and my mother was telling me that, um, black folks have not been given a fair shake and that their emotions are carrying themselves over to, uh, to destroy anything that they feel that has been

00:17:18.890 - 00:17:38.530

built by the so-called white man. And at that 0.65 I began to read, uh, as well as to understand what was going on. Could you read at that point? Yes. What grade did you, did you first start, uh, reading, actually reading and reading, I would say

00:17:39.229 - 00:17:58.989

my 7th grade, my 7th grade, I used to read Life magazines. Uh, all the time we had a subscription, Ebony magazines and Jet was about 15 cents then, and those were my basic reading materials that came to the home. Uh, when I got into, uh, high

00:17:58.989 - 00:18:18.000

school, I began to read certain black novels, uh, such as the Autobiography of Malcolm X. How did that affect you? Uh, it didn't affect me the way it did. A few years later. Uh, affect me that, uh, because I'd seen Malcolm X on TV in different,

00:18:18.150 - 00:18:47.869

uh, interviews and in the news, uh, but it didn't really affect me because my consciousness had not arisen at that particular point to understand what was going on. Uh, Other other works were by James Baldwin, uh. And uh. When you, when you developed this sense of,

00:18:47.880 - 00:19:13.750

um, self-conscious, um, what, what, what, what, what, what did you use as a, as an outlet? OK. In 1968, uh, when I was a senior at Lincoln High, uh, the death of Martin Luther King shook everybody. And the the students at Lincoln High School were very

00:19:13.750 - 00:19:34.989

upset, you know, emotionally upset because they lost a great person, but at the same time were upset because, uh, the school district did not let, uh, students out of school, uh, for King's funeral. And subsequently, students began to pour out of the building, students begin to,

00:19:35.630 - 00:19:52.439

this is at Lincoln. Students begin to beat up, uh, the young white teachers that were at Lincoln at that time and they began to pour into the street. Uh, I was a part of that. Uh, I don't, uh, have any regrets because I feel that this

00:19:52.439 - 00:20:11.699

was, uh, initial spark in my whole political development, and what I mean is that because it was the first time I've ever seen black unity, you know, around a particular issue, you know, ever happen, you know, uh, well, tell me this, um, um, what happened. Between

00:20:12.290 - 00:20:28.550

the death of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, what were you doing? What was going on in your mind? What was going on in my mind was that where was this world coming to? Because what was this world coming to in the sense of that, uh.

00:20:29.619 - 00:20:50.640

At church and at school they were preaching that uh communism was gonna take over the world uh and here in the United States, uh, black people were not free and these kinds of questions I was trying to answer myself, you know, and, uh, at that point.

00:20:51.680 - 00:21:08.300

You know, I did not have any answers or the correct answers, I should say. Uh I was studying my electronics because I wanted to become a uh a electronics technician and get my degree, which I did, but like I said, in '68 was the initial, the

00:21:08.300 - 00:21:29.589

initial spark that uh that was carried through. What did um. What did the death of JFK mean to you? It didn't mean that much to me. It did not mean that much to me, and I'm being honest because. Uh, My grandfather told me something a long

00:21:29.589 - 00:21:54.800

time ago. He says, uh, young white men who. Say that for black people. And become president, you know, are hurting somebody else in the world, you know, and feeding black people crumbs, and my grandfather told me that, and I believe that, I believe that now. So

00:21:54.800 - 00:22:18.729

he really didn't have any effect on me as far as uh my political development, you know, I hate to see anybody assassinated or killed. Which grandfather said that my grandfather Green. Um, my mother's father. So what was happening? Um, you started to read, uh. Um, Through

00:22:18.729 - 00:22:39.869

high school, you were caught in the midst of a of a revolution of sorts. Um, you became a product of that revolution, um. What, what type of an ego was developing at that time? OK, at that particular point, it was very loose. When I say very

00:22:39.869 - 00:22:59.219

loose because in the 60s, there wasn't really no leadership, particularly in the students. Uh people reacted to issues emotionally and that was the only way they could. In particular in Kansas City because it never had really been a strong vehicle or a strong force for black

00:22:59.219 - 00:23:20.300

people. And then the NAACP uh only served those who were middle class blacks. Freedom Incorporated in the beginning, began to, uh, service the poor blacks, trying to get them into better housing and try to get them into better job positions, which was a positive factor, don't

00:23:20.300 - 00:23:39.250

get me wrong, it was a positive factor. But then there was a long time between that time to where nothing took place. There was no leadership, young leadership coming out of the community, uh, and the old, you know, it's just like the old cliche, the, you

00:23:39.250 - 00:23:53.109

know, the black preachers were going to try to keep everything down. Because I remember when at the height of the riot, uh, the black preachers were on TV, they were on the radio, they were coming up and down the street trying to keep the kids inside,

00:23:53.229 - 00:24:08.790

trying to talk to them and say, well, you know, hey, this thing will, you know, go over, don't worry about it, we'll take care of it. That wasn't the question, you know, the question of the whole demonstration that I would say took in close to 5000

00:24:08.790 - 00:24:39.219

people. That day. Uh, right after King had died, what's the question that he did not let school out. Because uh a black martyr, a black hero had been. been assassinated. What um. What effect? Did the riots of the 60s have on today? OK, that's a really

00:24:39.219 - 00:25:04.060

good question because uh the effect was reformism. And what I mean by that is that the riots in the late 60s uh made the United States government pour as much money into the black community as possible. To alleviate the social problems that black people had. Well,

00:25:04.339 - 00:25:26.209

social problems haven't left. But the riots have. It changes into a new form. You know, on another level, it's on another level, and, and that level is being social, economic, and political. Black people now, you know, are looking for a political base, economic freedom, you know,

00:25:26.420 - 00:25:44.680

social justice, you know, in this country, and like I said, certain things were, you know, civil rights bills were passed and certain things were met, but. The fact of it was was that the whole purpose. Of like all the poverty programs, the model cities programs to

00:25:44.680 - 00:26:01.670

pour enough money into the community to satisfy the community, to build a structure to where if that ever happens again, Here's those outlets, you see what I'm saying, and that's what it was still about, you know, not only in Kansas City but throughout the country. So

00:26:01.680 - 00:26:19.319

you, would you agree that the struggle has like moved to another level now? Most definitely a much more complex level, I think so. I would say so. It's much more complex than than even a lot of the black leaders think it is. Um, All right, what

00:26:19.319 - 00:26:36.880

happened? Um, in '68? What did you decide to do then? OK. While I was still in high school, I was drafted by the Marines and uh I didn't go for that. And like, you know, some of my friends, some of my relatives were coming back dead

00:26:37.150 - 00:26:56.239

from Vietnam. Uh, this was one of the height, the the the height of the Vietnam situation and uh. Um, I was drafted by the Marines. Um, the day I went to the induction center, a quota had been met, so they cut off the rest of the

00:26:56.239 - 00:27:13.989

people that were in line and told them, told us rather, that we could go to any of the other branches of service, uh, to do our stem, and I picked the Air Force at that time. OK, I, in, in, uh, October. At 68, I went to

00:27:13.989 - 00:27:38.359

the Air Force at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas. Left there after three months of training, uh, going to, uh, Chinute Air Force Base in, in Champaign, Illinois. Uh, I stayed there 18 weeks to learn, uh, electronic technicians on, uh, jet engines, uh. I

00:27:38.359 - 00:28:03.369

left Chinute in the spring of '69 and was stationed in Little Rock, Arkansas. Uh, to Little Rock Air Force Base and at this point throughout my first few months in the Air Force, I really began to observe racism. Racism in the service against, you know, the

00:28:03.369 - 00:28:20.760

black soldier. It was pitiful, man. I mean, you know, I've seen, you know, black soldiers, black airmen, and sergeants who had been in the service like 21 years and only had 3 stripes. Had no, no way of advancing themselves because really when they first came into

00:28:20.760 - 00:28:36.785

the service back in the 50s, you know, at the height of the Korean War, they didn't know how to read or write, they were needed to fight, you know, and here the same individuals 20. Years later, still really don't know how to read or write or

00:28:36.785 - 00:28:55.290

budget their money or what have you or have any types of leeways to go to further their education, you know, with only 3 stripes in the service, uh, the blatant racism as far as, um. Who would be selected to do certain chores in the barracks, you

00:28:55.290 - 00:29:14.219

know, the blacks usually got the worst ones, you know, cleaning the shit house, uh, mopping the floors. Was there any, did you get any type of impressions doing the actual, uh, Uh, uh, uh, coming into, into what you call it. Um, being inducted, did you feel

00:29:14.219 - 00:29:28.829

it there, uh, not really, because a partner of mine, we went, uh, we were drafted, both drafted by the, uh, Marines, and we went to the Air Force on a buddy buddy plan. So like, what's his name, uh, Douglas Williams, and he went to Lincoln also.

00:29:29.770 - 00:29:54.949

Um, who was your best friend? My best friend by that time. Oh, I would say myself. Myself, what did, what did red, green, and black mean to you at that point at that point. That's when after I was after I was transferred to Little Rock Air

00:29:54.949 - 00:30:16.160

Force Base, red, black, and Marine became a significant thing in my mind, and this was because of brothers who were coming back from Vietnam, the Philippines, and Thailand coming back to the base who had been over there. That uh were telling me different things that were

00:30:16.160 - 00:30:35.869

going on over there and how black folks were being treated over there. Where did you get them from? Uh, 69 This is when you was in the military, right? Uh, uh, I had to keep it cropped real low, uh. None, no hair covering the ears, um,

00:30:36.270 - 00:30:51.430

but we, you know, we try to keep them up to the basic standards of what the, the Air Force wanted without getting caught. A lot of brothers in Little Rock Air Force Base were sent to jail for 30 days, were given Article 15s and Article 31s

00:30:51.430 - 00:31:12.250

because they wouldn't cut their hair, you know, and this was the, here's this other racism coming out that is affecting me. Uh, were you ever called a ***? Yeah, were you? Uh, well, before 1969, but, uh, the first time that you got caught in a in

00:31:12.250 - 00:31:33.280

a in a in a racist situation, um, that I knew that was a racist situation was in 1968. When I, when I entered the military. And uh was in the barracks. And uh they were white folks from. Minneapolis, there are white folks from all over the

00:31:33.280 - 00:31:51.119

South. But uh I was the only brother in, in our squadron that was from a basic northern city or Midwestern city. The rest of them were from Louisiana, Texas, uh, and Arkansas and so, uh. Uh, I was coming out of the shower one day and I

00:31:51.119 - 00:32:14.569

heard him, uh, this dude, people around the corner calling me ***. And um, I then, you know, proceeded to, to give him one, you know, one of them foots. As they call it and uh had you married yet? No, OK, um, did you do any any

00:32:14.569 - 00:32:36.130

duty in Nam? No, I didn't and I refused to you openly refused I openly refused to. I was a conscious objector. So what happened? uh, because of the. Mechanical shop that I was in, I worked on B-52 bombers which were being used in Vietnam. Uh, I

00:32:36.130 - 00:33:01.520

was in SAC, Strategic Air Command. And uh Zack. SAC bases that I worked at, uh, I had B-52 bombers, B-58 bombers that carried atomic bombs, and, uh, KC-135 refuel tankers that can refuel a bomber in the air. And, uh, My level of thinking was becoming more

00:33:01.520 - 00:33:21.670

and more increased because #1, uh, the effect the Black Panther Party had on people in this country and what I read about the Black Panther Party, 2, the effect of black brothers coming back from Vietnam and telling me what was going on over there, and 3,

00:33:21.959 - 00:33:39.150

the effect of people at home, you know, condemning the war in Vietnam. Had an effect on me to say, hey, why should I lose my life. You know, for somebody that ain't never in the world called me ***. You know, and I'm not free here. And

00:33:39.150 - 00:33:59.150

I tried to realize that this person over here was trying to to liberate himself. You know, and we were stopping them from trying to liberate themselves to wherever they want to be. What, um, when you found out that Chappie James had become the commander of NORAD,

00:33:59.780 - 00:34:22.030

um, as a young black Conscientious person. What did that do to you? Um, to be honest about it, it did not affect me one bit. I laughed. Because I said, well, here's your token ***. That the military has to have. Uh, And uh they'll try to,

00:34:22.090 - 00:34:40.669

you know, put him in a position to where it looks like. That he is the authority over this particular structure. He is not, uh, as far as NOORRAD, he is not. Those orders, those directives come from the White House and the Pentagon as to what the

00:34:40.669 - 00:34:58.550

NORARAD system does. I know enough about that because I worked in SAC. And I worked in, I had uh confidential secret and top secret clearance. I know for a fact that, you know, it doesn't work like that. Those orders come from the Pentagon, you know, all

00:34:58.550 - 00:35:18.229

those hotlines and what have you. And uh so I looked at it, you know, another token black. Um, um. At this particular time, at the time that she was entering into the military, uh, SAC 20 was being developed. The younger organization, uh, what did you think

00:35:18.229 - 00:35:38.669

of it? OK, SAC and Soul Incorporated at that time. Uh, right after the riots began to organize. Now, from the area which I lived in, uh, with my parents, uh, I knew everybody because of Bernard Powell. His family and my family have been close for many

00:35:38.669 - 00:35:56.219

years and uh we uh we went on activities together and what have you, uh, that did not really affect me at that time. Uh, I was interested more when I came out of the service as to what these things, what these organizations were doing and when

00:35:56.219 - 00:36:09.610

I would come home on leave, because I would pick up a paper and, uh, you know, see what, uh, let me see, Gary O'Neill at the time was head of Soul Incorporated and they were trying to merge with SA 20. What did you think of the,

00:36:09.620 - 00:36:34.040

uh, of the O'Neill brothers? OK, I'm gonna be honest about it because I knew both of them very well and worked with them. I feel that their intentions for Very correct their intentions, but their method of achieving those intentions or that particular goal was incorrect. What

00:36:34.040 - 00:36:53.530

was the method? Um, the method was to portray the Black Panther Party. And other militant groups within the community that they had enough force, they had enough support to actually carry on an armed struggle against the police department and this government, which was a very falsehood.

00:36:54.379 - 00:37:09.979

This is what destroyed the Panther Party nationally. You don't think that it was the FBI that destroyed them. That was a part of it, no, no doubt about it. The COINTELPRO program shows that specifically, the attack on black organizations and black leaders in this country, but

00:37:09.979 - 00:37:27.000

at the same time, black folks made a lot of mistakes themselves, put themselves in positions that, you know, that caused that friction. You see what I'm saying? What has been the major um Problem with the poverty programs and. Uh, the major problem of poverty programs will

00:37:27.000 - 00:37:49.649

always be the same problem of reformism. They cannot, you cannot develop a socialized program. You know, When you still have the economic system we have today. Because you can always have unemployment as high as it is. You're gonna always have people on uh the poverty scale.

00:37:50.510 - 00:38:06.709

This is, this is the cause of the whole economic system of this country. You know, not just black folks, but, but everyone. When were you, uh, released from the military? I was released in November 1969. And then what did you do? I came out. And what

00:38:06.709 - 00:38:24.139

rank were you first? OK, I was airman first class at E5. OK, um. Had you been abroad, no. Alaska on a, a TDY tour. How were you treated in Alaska as a black man? Well, I wasn't really up there that long, and it was so cold

00:38:24.139 - 00:38:35.879

that we wouldn't go out. The brothers wouldn't go out, so we just kind of hung together, you know, when it was time to go out, but it wasn't really a problem up there, you know. Now what did you do immediately after the military after I came

00:38:35.879 - 00:38:55.989

out. Uh, well, I should say this before that, that during the last few months of me being in the service, I became so politically aware that, uh, we organized the first black organization of, of, of. Black airmen in the South. And this was called the Black

00:38:55.989 - 00:39:19.939

Afro-American Society. And out of, I would say a number of. 700 blacks on the base. We had a good, I'd say 50, 55% of them in our organizations, from airmen to sergeants. And uh, we organized a demonstration which the the Air Force thought it was going

00:39:19.939 - 00:39:36.229

to be a riot. Uh, but it was a peaceful demonstration to let people know that of what our demands were about, what our criticisms were about. What did your commanding officer of that? OK, he reacted just like most white folks would react. He panicked. You know,

00:39:36.629 - 00:39:51.510

sent out the security police, but the majority of the brothers that were in the service were in security police, and they weren't gonna bother us. Is that the reason, is that one of the primary reasons that, uh, our brothers over security at Leavenworth, Fort Leavenworth? Yeah.

00:39:52.580 - 00:40:10.669

That's the way it is. And so from that and from meeting a uh a brother that uh I owe a lot to, uh, that was from Kansas City when I met him down in Arkansas, his name was David Jackson and we call him Black Jack Black

00:40:10.669 - 00:40:31.629

Jack had a political consciousness like no other. All of the young man was he, um. At that time, I was 19, he was 25, 26 years old. And I became in a census understudy. I read the things he read. I listened to what he was talking

00:40:31.629 - 00:40:47.070

about in relationship to black folks and everything, and it got to the point when we both got out of the service. That's where our direction was going to, towards, you know, where is he now? Uh, he's in Kansas City. What's his name? David Jackson. All right,

00:40:47.840 - 00:41:07.919

uh, So what did you do after the military? After I came out of the military, I worked on, uh, construction. What company? Uh, JE Dunn. Uh, help building Crown Center downtown, down on the Grand, uh, that's this time the office buildings were being constructed and at

00:41:07.919 - 00:41:31.780

the same time a political. Um, Activities were being carried towards the community, the. Inner city parish that was headed by Reverend Phil Lawson, uh, and working as a community worker for the, uh, the free breakfast program for the Black Panther Party. And you had at that

00:41:31.780 - 00:41:45.770

point become a Black Panther yourself, OK. Who was head of the Black Panther Party? O'Neil. Pete was, uh, what did you think about Pete leaving? Uh Because of the mistakes he made, when I look at it and analyze it, because of the mistakes he made, I

00:41:45.770 - 00:41:59.080

think it was the best thing for him simply because they would have killed him. Who would have killed it, uh, the Kansas City Police Department at that time, McNamara, I mean Kelly, Kelly was. Uh, did, did you feel that Kelly actually had a thing about the

00:41:59.080 - 00:42:21.979

Panthers? Oh yes. And Kelly did not want anybody, didn't make any difference. It was the Panthers, the mafia. Uh, anybody to get more press coverage and stay on the community's mind because once a person, individuals or, or a group or organizations stays on the people's mind

00:42:22.399 - 00:42:39.310

and educating them. You know, that community comes up a level of consciousness, you see, and that couldn't happen because we have to take into consideration what Mr. Kelly was doing, you know, throughout the late 60s and the early 70s. He was setting up one of the

00:42:39.729 - 00:43:00.669

best technical, scientific. Networks of police enforcement in this country. The only police force that uses Dobermans. That's right. You know, the Kansas City, uh, Kansas City Police Department was the first to use helicopters, not New York, not LA. It was Kansas City, and Pete and, and

00:43:00.669 - 00:43:16.919

the rest of the people at that time were a thorn in his side because they exposed the deal. That Clarence Kelly had made with the General Turner of Fort Riley, Kansas, and that deal was to sell arms, you know, to buy arms for the Kansas, uh,

00:43:17.060 - 00:43:37.530

guns that had been confiscated, right. And, and what was your reaction to that? Well, uh, I was a part of that, that, uh, public dis distribution of that information. In other words, to educate the people about what Clarence Kelly was about. Uh, we made flowers, uh,

00:43:37.750 - 00:43:57.500

and leaflets, uh, we were downtown, uh, you know. Passing on leaflets at shopping centers, the grocery stores, uh, passing out leaflets to educate people around the police department and how it was really operating in that particular time. Do you think that, that, that, that your efforts

00:43:57.500 - 00:44:15.860

was, was of, of any use, any good? A certain percent of it was. A certain percent, a very small percent, but a certain percent, because black folks in Kansas City were alienated from the Panthers, and that was done two ways by the Panthers and by the

00:44:15.860 - 00:44:34.699

bad publicity about the Panthers. What about the Nation of Islam? What was happening? OK, the Nation of Islam, and I had been to a couple of the, uh, Sunday meetings of the Nation of Islam, but the Nation of Islam, because. Um, since 1967, I have not

00:44:34.699 - 00:44:53.639

been to church. So the whole religion thing. You know, it was out of the question. What happened in '66 that made you stop going to church? Um, you know, I would ask the preacher questions. And he couldn't give me a correct answer. And, uh, And and

00:44:54.020 - 00:45:11.590

reading about uh. More, like I said, in, in the late 60s in the service and coming out of the service, reading more about Malcolm X and what he was talking about then had a terrific impact on my life. How old are you now? I'm 26. Go

00:45:11.699 - 00:45:35.879

ahead, you know, and it had a terrific impact on my life to where, um, I saw the contradictions, uh, between church and state. I saw the contradictions uh between the Nation of Islam that was at that time uh ran by Elijah Muhammad. Um, And you know,

00:45:36.040 - 00:45:56.219

I also saw the thing that, uh, you know, where they were going versus where I was going. You know, and it's not that way today. Because, you know, a few years ago, uh, other black organizations could not work with the Nation of Islam on any community

00:45:56.219 - 00:46:15.629

issues on any level, on any level, but we can now, you know, and I think that is a terrific and tremendous task, you know, that has taken place to where black organizations can, you know, can do those things. Mhm, um. So what else happened after the

00:46:15.629 - 00:46:41.530

military? After joining the Panther Party, what year did you leave the Panther Party? I left the Panther Party. 169. I'm sorry, in 70. When the Panther Party disbanded in the 70s. And then what was your alternative then? OK, my alternatives. Were to, uh, I plan, I,

00:46:41.649 - 00:47:00.879

you know, I always wanted to continue my education, so I started going to Penn Valley Community College, which was the first out on Westport Road, and myself and, and, uh, and David Jackson, we went out and we, we took different classes, black history, black literature, sociology,

00:47:00.969 - 00:47:25.100

inner city sociology, etc. and began to learn more about the whole sphere of black people. And uh we began to organize students there, uh, black students in particular, and around different issues that affected black students. Not enough financial aid, not enough uh social activities, recreation, um.

00:47:26.090 - 00:47:45.379

Why in some classes that are taught by white teachers, a black person cannot make over a C. You know, I mean these kinds of things we were hitting the administration with the same kinds of things that NAACP Julia Hill, Doctor Cameron and other black, uh, political

00:47:45.379 - 00:48:12.469

figures, you know, were hitting as well and um we were organizing as far as um. Black students were concerned, but then Uh, another transition in my life came. I was, uh, at a, uh. Bookstore picking up some uh Some black revolutionary books and I saw um.

00:48:13.500 - 00:48:33.639

A leaflet that said, uh, join the Vince Ramos brigade, uh, traveled to Cuba, you know, to show solidarity with the Cuban revolution. And uh Just told you how to get in touch with him. Had you any type of, um, um, idea about the Cuban revolution that

00:48:35.010 - 00:48:53.879

the Cuban revolution at that particular point? Yes, because of our studying in the Panther Party, studying about different revolutions in China, in Cuba, and Russia and Africa, uh. And the black revolution that was, you know, going on here. So what was your impression of the Bay

00:48:53.879 - 00:49:15.379

of Pigs? My per my impression of the Bay of Pigs at that time was that the United States, uh, once again, you know, tried to destroy people's sovereignty of a nation by invading the country, uh, because they felt that Fidel Castro, because he was in power,

00:49:15.760 - 00:49:39.139

could not. And would not. You know, support the American. Uh firms and companies that were ousted out of Cuba at the triumph of the revolution in '59. And it was a direct attack towards the Cuban people, you know. And I prepared myself during the winter months,

00:49:39.469 - 00:49:58.050

reading as much as I could on Cuba, borrowing books. From the library and uh reading books that uh people that had given me over the years and finally I had the opportunity to go. This was in the spring of '71. Um, I was the only black

00:49:58.050 - 00:50:14.939

person to go to Cuba from Kansas City, from the Vince Ramos brigade in '71. There were four other whites that went and they were, you know, different radicals. And I went there with a purpose, and I don't think that they did. I think that they just

00:50:14.939 - 00:50:32.250

wanted to be tourists and to say that they've been to Cuba. But I went there with a purpose because In my understanding of Cuba and reading about Cuba, Cuba has a significant population of people. You don't hear about no riots there. You don't hear about no,

00:50:32.610 - 00:50:54.179

you know, racism there and those questions like that begin to turn in my mind. These are things and I was curious as well. What did you find when I went to Cuba, I found no institutionalized racism. racism though. I found prejudice within older. Uh, sectors of

00:50:54.179 - 00:51:11.570

the community. When I say older sectors, the older people whose values. Don't change as rapidly as the younger people. We're not talking about the older sector, I'm talking about people in the 60s and 70s, you know, would say, you know, certain kinds of prejudicial kinds of

00:51:11.570 - 00:51:30.889

things. It wasn't like a blatant racist statement. And uh, but for the country as a whole, no. What else did you find? I found out that uh A country of 8 million people have free healthcare, free hospitalization, free education from daycare center to till they graduate

00:51:30.889 - 00:51:48.870

from the university. I found that people working together with that unity could do anything they wanted to do. What did you think of communism? At that time I had a very distorted view of communism. This distorted view was because of what I had studied in the

00:51:48.870 - 00:52:07.110

Panther Party as far as what socialism and communism was about and how is, how does that apply to black people in the United States. But since my travels and since my My heightening on my political consciousness, I can see how those things, you know, uh, can

00:52:07.110 - 00:52:22.389

be attractive to us here in the United States because we're the ones who get the poor hospital treatment, healthcare treatment. We're the ones that have poor education system in this country to where, you know, we work ourselves to death as as parents to send our kids

00:52:22.389 - 00:52:41.629

to school when they don't learn anything. You see what I'm saying? And the fact that they were free to think what they wanted to do, you know, uh, and You know, lived in basic harmony. Um, I returned from Cuba. No, no, did, did you ever meet

00:52:41.629 - 00:53:03.649

Fidel? Not at that time. I've been to Cuba 7 times now, and, uh, I've met him twice, but not the first trip. First, the highest ranking? Push it and keep it for me. I met the Minister of Education. Who was that? The Minister of Education is

00:53:03.649 - 00:53:27.290

Carlos Doc Doctor Carlos Rafael Rodriguez, who was the, uh, National Minister of Education. Who came out and spoke to us about the education system in Cuba. What was your impression? uh, I mean, what was the, uh. Um What was the, the, the, um Uh Atmosphere about

00:53:27.300 - 00:53:49.209

about Che. Now, that was something that uh was really uh fantastic to me because uh how the people I asked questions about Che and in fact I met a person who fought with Che during the uh the Cuban Revolution. And uh What the Cuban people think

00:53:49.209 - 00:54:09.060

about change, you know, it's like what we feel about Malcolm and Doctor King. And uh, but even on a higher plane, even on a higher plane because. They know that Che was internationalist, you know, Che just, you know, just didn't fight in Bolivia where he died.

00:54:09.489 - 00:54:28.649

He fought in Bolivia. He fought in the Congo with the Lumumba troops, you know, with Patrice Lumumba's patriots. He fought in Vietnam for a short stint. So in that case, he brought out a new kind of awareness. International solidarity with oppressed peoples around the world, you

00:54:28.649 - 00:54:43.870

know, or third world people as we call it, you know, peoples of color of Asia, Africa, and Latin America. And that's something that still stands and it's still as strong today as it was 10 years ago. Um you know, and in fact. You know, just in

00:54:43.870 - 00:55:05.300

this, in this whole conversation is that, you know, tomorrow is the 10th, the 9th anniversary of Chey's death, tomorrow, tomorrow, it's October 8th, and the fact of it is, is that. Um, His writings, what he felt, you know, uh, were very inspiring to many, many black

00:55:05.300 - 00:55:22.659

people, you know, within the civil rights movement and student movement. And we have to take something into consideration too. Many, many civil rights leaders and student leaders at that time were visiting Cuba in the late 60s and the 70s. I can name you some people, Robert

00:55:22.659 - 00:55:43.770

Williams, Stokely Carmichael. H R Brown, Leroy Jones, or, or who's calling him Aru Baraka, uh, and somebody that you wouldn't think that went to Cuba. Dr. Martin Luther King in 1966, made a short trip to Cuba. And I mean these were things that he saw. Did

00:55:43.770 - 00:56:03.419

you do what was was Russian presence, uh, that apparent when you were there? No, it's not apparent. It's not apparent. You know, Cubans have their own socialism. The socialism that fits within their framework of their country, of their culture, etc. You know, they, they do receive

00:56:03.419 - 00:56:20.840

uh trade. Uh, from the Soviet Union, from other socialist countries, but they also receive trade from, uh, Western countries like Japan. Could it be one of the reasons that black people are having such a problem adjusting to a democratic situation is that it's not a part

00:56:20.840 - 00:56:42.500

of our, uh, inmate or our, uh, a part of our culture to, to, to, to live in this type of a society. It's true. Uh, my ancestors, you know, lived in communalism in Africa or in the Caribbean, whichever it was. And uh. African African communalism at

00:56:42.500 - 00:57:02.189

that time was that people shared a community together, what they had, their harvest, uh. They're killed, you know, if they went hunting, they killed. It was shared among everybody, the work, the whole kind of labor and unity was there, that's communalization. You see what I'm saying?

00:57:02.409 - 00:57:16.679

This is something that black folks still have in their hearts and in their minds, and that is because that most black families, your family as well as mine, are tight, are close, you're close knit family, you know, I mean, you know, you know how when it

00:57:16.679 - 00:57:31.760

is when you have a Family reunions, you haven't seen your relatives in a long time. Everybody gets together and you talk about old times and different things like this, but when there's an emergency, you know, you're there. You know, I know, you know that I am,

00:57:31.879 - 00:57:45.860

you know, when um my mother says, well, hey, I need to talk to you about something and blah blah blah, you know, I'm there because I'm concerned not just about myself but the rest of my family as well. And this kind of spirit. You know, has

00:57:45.860 - 00:58:04.750

never died within black folks and will never die with black folks. Did you see that same spirit in Cuba? Yes, you did. Yes, um. Uh Since there was an embargo on Cuba, how did you get into Cuba 7 times 7 times. That's a good question, and

00:58:04.750 - 00:58:23.070

I can answer that. Is that, um, uh, we flew from Kansas City to Mexico City, took a Cuban Airlines from Mexico City to Havana, no problems, no problems. The first time. The 1st time, the 3rd time, the 4th and 5th, and 6th time I had problems

00:58:23.570 - 00:58:42.550

in the airport, in the customs, and those problems with that CIA agents. Uh, in coercing the Mexican officials at the airport with line people, any North American. Any US citizen that was going to Cuba would have to line up and get their picture taken before they

00:58:42.550 - 00:58:58.750

got on the plane. Wait, wait a minute. CIA, I actually, uh, perpetrate that type of, uh, of authority as, I mean, as a, let's say a policeman, um, uh, uh, uh, out of the country, right? It would tell all Americans to line up, right? If you

00:58:58.750 - 00:59:11.879

were in no uniform, they in suits, suits and ties and, and, uh, you know, sports shirts and what have you. You know, and they, well they, they hold, show, show you a badge with CIA on it or something, yeah, not, not show a badge with CIA

00:59:11.879 - 00:59:29.510

on it. They would coerce, like I said, they would coerce the Mexican custom officials and immigration officials to doing it. They sit kind of in the back and then let them do it right now in that I had an incident to where, uh. Uh, a Mexican

00:59:29.510 - 00:59:47.570

official hit me. Uh, while I was waiting for him to stamp my passport, and, uh, I punched him back. And, uh, Became a big scene and I had to uh uh to try to get out of the situation diplomatically because I'm not in the United States.

00:59:48.310 - 01:00:08.239

I'm in another country in Latin America, Mexico, which at that particular time, uh, the CIA was working day and night out of Mexico and still is to a certain degree but not as much as it was, uh. And this, this was proven. In 1973. Uh, in

01:00:08.239 - 01:00:24.770

a national Mexican magazine called Porque, it means for what, and my picture is on the front page of that magazine and I have a copy of it at home. I'll show it to you, uh, about the incident, uh. With the CIA in the airport in Mexico

01:00:24.770 - 01:00:45.540

City. You know, what was, uh, what was happening in Cuba. You know, I would say 90% of students, uh, people my age were in in the universities and, uh, in trade schools, and they were, uh, the ones in trade schools and, and also in the universities

01:00:45.540 - 01:01:09.090

are working in a program called work study, which you work a half a day. Uh, in the Uh Feel. That you're studying. And getting paid for it, you see what I'm saying, um, most of them was, uh, working very hard to, um, Meet the needs of

01:01:09.090 - 01:01:28.020

the revolution. Were they, were they doing this at the same time working in the in the cane fields, working in the cane fields? Was that the work section, right? Uh, uh, we cut cane for six weeks. And we toured the island for 2 weeks. Um, and

01:01:28.199 - 01:01:49.409

believe me, cutting cane is hard. It's hard work, you know, that was my first time ever cutting cane. uh I lost. I lost about 20 pounds in the heat. I was, I was smoking marijuana, uh, what was it like? Um, that's one law that has been

01:01:49.409 - 01:02:06.520

passed that, uh, it's against the law to smoke marijuana or any types of drugs or take any types of drugs in Cuba regardless if you're a youth or an adult. It's against the law which, uh, meets with the majority of the people's. You know, respect. Um,

01:02:06.800 - 01:02:23.469

they don't, they don't believe in, in smoking marijuana. What was the, uh, consequences of, let's say, going out with a Cuban woman while you were there? It wasn't any problem, uh. Um You develop, it's just like here in the United States, when you develop a certain

01:02:23.469 - 01:02:39.139

relationship with a woman here, you take her out, you know, you go to a show or whatever, you know, and that's between you and that particular individual. Do you regret at all going to Cuba? No, I think it was the best thing that ever happened to

01:02:39.139 - 01:02:55.300

me. There's a, there's a grave contradiction that I see, and that is that, uh, you left the system for a moment in a way because, uh, you, you, you sought to change it, uh, you, you, you sought to, uh, to, uh, uh, uh, develop or go

01:02:55.300 - 01:03:10.100

to other system to another system to see what it was like then you came back and you're working for the city. You know, uh, what, how, how can you, uh, justify that contradiction? Well, to me it's not a contradiction. It's a matter of looking at your

01:03:10.100 - 01:03:30.639

priorities and like I said, uh, I said I should say is that when. To Cuba and the many trips I've had since the first time I went, um, I was going there to look at an example. Example that I agreed with that certain ideals and certain

01:03:30.639 - 01:03:52.270

experiences from that example could be applied here to our concrete situation here in the community. Second of all is that, um, a man has to work and my priority because I am married. And have a family is two worlds. In something That I'm interested in and

01:03:52.270 - 01:04:11.250

this is why I would, what year did you, uh, um, did you get married? Uh in '73. To who? Uh a woman by the name of Virginia Davis. And your child's name? uh Fina Antonio Maceo Bronson. Uh, what do you have planned, Bronson? What's up next?

01:04:11.610 - 01:04:27.929

What's up next? I, well, I just came back from Cuba two weeks ago. Uh, my wife and I spent, uh, our vacation there, as well as, uh, toured to see, uh, you know, the different changes that have been made since the last time I've been there.

01:04:28.250 - 01:04:44.219

Uh, we also went to, um, Jamaica and spent some time in Jamaica, uh, to see how Jamaica was doing and And what, you know, what kinds of things are going on there. It was, what, what, what's going on in Jamaica? What's going on in Jamaica is

01:04:44.219 - 01:05:06.969

very interesting. It should be pointed out in the news, and I think it should be become increasingly more important for black people here. Jamaica is a small island. Uh, approximately 34 million people. Uh, English speaking people. Uh, that is in a very serious situation. What I,

01:05:07.090 - 01:05:31.780

what I mean by that is that Jamaica is becoming more and more independent and less dependent on the United States. The United States don't like that. What, what, what impact did Rasta have on you, Rastafarians have on you when you were in Jamaica? Well, It really

01:05:31.780 - 01:05:48.080

didn't, you know, it really didn't have an effect on me because I'm looking at, because of where my level of consciousness is and stuff today. I'm looking at the social, economic, and political factors involved in the situation and of a country and, um, because of Jamaica

01:05:48.379 - 01:06:11.790

since 1972 making political stances. Political stances towards showing its solidarity with the African brothers and sisters that were fighting against the Portuguese at that time, turned the tables between the United States and Jamaica. I mean, they're not at fighting, you know, uh, odds at this particular

01:06:11.790 - 01:06:30.580

point, but what the CIA is trying to do is to overthrow the government of Michael Manley. The same way they're trying to do in Guyana with Forbes Burnham. They're trying to overthrow that government because the people in those two particular Caribbean countries are becoming more stronger,

01:06:31.439 - 01:06:52.709

independent, politically conscious of where they want to go, where they want to be aligned to, and not to the United States capitalists, you know, who's going to win the next election? Uh, the United States, Jimmy Carter. What changes do you see? Uh, I see him, uh,

01:06:52.919 - 01:07:12.189

passing the full employment bill. That's something that I favor. I mean, that's something that any progressive person should favor, full employment for this country, you know, uh, but I do see, uh, once again the special interest groups of this country controlling this country. Jimmy Carter is

01:07:12.189 - 01:07:31.540

nothing but a mouthpiece just like President Ford is of the, the major investors and corporations of this country. And that who runs this country. I think we'll have a decline in inflation, uh, a rapid decline in unemployment. You know, what does San Clemente mean to you?

01:07:31.929 - 01:07:54.510

San Clemente, Nixon, Vietnam, Chile, Southern Africa, Milo Cabral, you know, these are people that, you know. Uh, in places and countries that come in my mind when you say San Clemente, um, and, and, and to top that off when you say San Clemente, uh. I have

01:07:54.510 - 01:08:11.129

to say Cuba again. And this is something that a lot of people don't know about that Nixon, when he was a senator, You know, own property in Cuba. That's why throughout the Nixon administration, he had a hostile attitude towards revolutionary Cuba, you know, and because he

01:08:11.129 - 01:08:30.399

was working with the mafia in Cuba. Movie stars who, who were in the 30s and 40s like George Raft, you know, owned Havana, owned all the gambling and prostitution and drugs in Havana, you know, before the revolution. What's going to happen in In South Africa, OK.

01:08:30.759 - 01:08:52.549

South Africa and the whole situation in Southern Africa, talking about Rhodesia, South Africa and Namibia. Uh, I see one thing happening. Namibia will be independent very soon, Southwest Africa. Headed by Samujoma of the SWAPO or the Southwest African People's Organization. In Rhodesia, I think that, uh,

01:08:52.859 - 01:09:08.990

the white Rhodesians will back out and leave the country. The majority of them will. Some will stay, but the majority of them will leave. In South Africa, I think it's a longer struggle. And it's more serious. When I say it's more serious because you're talking about

01:09:08.990 - 01:09:26.859

18 to 20 million black people. You know, that are unarmed. What about I mean? Idi Amin, the first thing that comes to my mind is that he is a pragmatist. He's a person that fluctuates from one position back to to another. And when I say that,

01:09:26.899 - 01:09:43.729

I'm talking about some things he come out that are very correct and some things are absolutely insane that he does. All right, we'll, um, Let's, let's, let's say this is part one of our interview. OK. OK? And, um, uh, this will hold me for a couple

01:09:43.729 - 01:09:49.169

of months, I guess, and then we'll come back to you again. OK. OK? That's fine. Thank you very much, Mr. Bronson. All right.