00:00:00.090 - 00:00:16.239

Like everybody, I had one. Right. I had a beach. And, uh, I don't remember much about my mother. She passed when I was age 4, but I do remember that she played the guitar and, and sang us to sleep because back in those days it was

00:00:16.239 - 00:00:34.279

popular to sing lullabies to the kids instead of turning on the television. Uh, the mothers would croon or sing, and if they played an instrument, they would play piano or guitar or something like that. And uh she was a very beautiful person I can remember that

00:00:35.110 - 00:00:50.830

hair down to her waist. My father was a minister and he traveled uh quite a bit and we traveled with him quite a bit and I got to see a great deal of the country while he was very young. Was he on the circuit or a

00:00:50.830 - 00:01:10.239

preaching circuit, or was he traveling all over the United States? Uh, it was mostly regional. He traveled between Oklahoma and Colorado. And he was on the circuit came there or something? Um-hum. I see. And, uh, we moved, oh, shortly after my birth from Kansas to Colorado

00:01:10.239 - 00:01:32.089

and then, Pueblo, Colorado. To Wichita and Wichita, Kansas. Kansas and to Kansas City, Missouri in time for me to enter the Kindergarten here. And this has been my home ever since. OK, you say, uh, your father was a minister. What denomination was he? Church of God

00:01:32.089 - 00:01:57.610

in Christ. I see. OK. OK. You're at school, Kansas City. And this is what year by now, when you're in kindergarten? From, from your birth. Uh you're thinking 5 or 6 years. Yeah. Uh, probably 1932. Mhm. OK. 33, perhaps. I'm not sure. Um. Where did you

00:01:57.610 - 00:02:18.460

go to school? At, uh, Adducks Elementary. OK. That's about 19th and Woodland. Still standing today. OK, you went to Alex Elementary and to what, uh, junior high and high and. Yeah, at that time there was a junior high called RT Cole's Junior High. And I went

00:02:18.460 - 00:02:42.399

to RT Cole's in junior high. And to Lincoln Junior College and To Cole College in Cedar Records, Iowa. I think that's a rather interesting bit of history, uh, RT Cos in that, uh, If I, and then this is a little bit before my time. If I

00:02:42.399 - 00:03:00.520

remember correctly what I've heard, uh, RT Cos and Lincoln Junior, I mean, Lincoln High School were, uh, the two major black high schools. Is that, is that right? Yes. On the Missouri side. Right. And Coles was a junior high and vocational school. Let's see, was it

00:03:00.520 - 00:03:17.889

also a high school, it wasn't a high school? It was also a junior high school. It was high school and junior high school. My memory fails me there. OK. Uh, I know you got academic subjects on the one hand, and if you chose a vocation, you,

00:03:19.259 - 00:03:41.639

And uh pursue a vocational career there. But what I was really getting at was, Who were some of the people at RCCs, uh, You know, it being, uh, The black institution. Can you remember any of the black teachers or principals or administrators that RT Codes then?

00:03:43.380 - 00:04:00.970

Um, As I mentioned earlier, I'm not very good, uh, at history unless I sit down and, and write it out. Just recalling it off the top of my head. Yeah. Seems to present problems for me, mainly because I never paid much attention to dates and things

00:04:00.970 - 00:04:19.250

as a youth. I just lived in kind of an eternal now. Yeah. But, uh, I can remember several figures who made impressions upon me. Men like Harwell, who was the principal at one time. And later Doctor Earl Thomas. Um-hum. Uh, his wife, who at the time

00:04:19.250 - 00:04:42.019

was named Anne Jenkins. Um-hum. And I thought she was a very good instructor. Uh, coaches like Coach Banks. Um-hum. Isaiah Banks. Right, basketball. Right, and football. Football coach. And, uh, Coach Wilkinson. This is Jim Wilkinson. Jim Wilkinson. Under them. Uh, I made all Missouri State in

00:04:42.019 - 00:05:00.350

football. Good. All league, all-star in basketball and it was because of the leadership of these men. I see. And the kind of training. And, uh, ideals and principles and practices that they instilled in the young men that, you know, came under them as athletes. Um-hum. They

00:05:00.350 - 00:05:30.420

encouraged, uh, attention to your studies. Um-hum. Uh, they believed an athlete was at his best when his mind was working functioning. One bit. One bit of kind of. Sociological. Or I'm asking for a candidate. Sociological political opinion. These days, Increasingly, you know, the society is supposedly

00:05:30.420 - 00:05:57.250

becoming integrated. And um To some extent. You know, with the thrust for integration and the bussing and all of that, black schools are breaking down, you know. Were there any particular benefits or any particular, uh, negative effects of going to, Uh, segregated schools at that time.

00:05:58.950 - 00:06:20.130

Or you know, in comparison with now, I think overall, uh, I would have to speak for the pro and the con of black schools. Uh, on the pro side, there was a higher concentration of what I would call the black ethnic, Uh, there was a, uh,

00:06:20.160 - 00:06:45.059

a certain intensity that, That, uh, you didn't get when you went to a mixed school, for example, a certain intensity of cultural components of blackness. Uh uh. The competition, for example, in the classroom, Uh, parallel that of the competition in the white classrooms, in my opinion.

00:06:45.230 - 00:07:09.579

Um-hum. And, uh, Certainly in athletics, there was no comparison. I remember once, Black schools didn't play the white schools back in those days, but I remember one, afternoon after football practice on the Bassal, uh, we engaged in a light skirmish with De La Salle, uh-huh, which

00:07:09.579 - 00:07:30.970

was an all-white school. Yeah, and, uh, I wouldn't even want this printed, you know, for certain reasons. But, uh, just for your information, the, Uh, De La Salle, That year, and I don't even remember what year it was, won the state championship. OK, hold on, hold

00:07:30.970 - 00:07:53.420

on. OK, you were talking about the comparison, the pros and cons of the black schools back in those days. Um, one of the, Things that stick strongly in my mind is the dedication of black teachers. They seemed to have a mission, and that mission was to

00:07:53.420 - 00:08:16.929

educate black youth. And they were very serious about you getting, uh, a good education and they worked you hard and long, uh, you know, and Uh, at getting a good education. And, uh, there were many brilliant minds. Um-hum. Uh, I mean, Black, young black folks with,

00:08:17.239 - 00:08:36.710

with brilliant, uh, intellects. Um-hum. mentalities. And you think that you think that's changed with the, with the whole thrust for integration, or it's not in the kind of concentration that it that it was. I'm not an expert on this. I haven't paid really enough attention to

00:08:36.710 - 00:08:55.349

it or, or dug into it enough to get the facts, but just from a layman's standpoint, now there seems to be, uh, less, somewhat less dedication among teachers. Um. And I might be 100% wrong about that. I don't really know, but from what I see and

00:08:55.349 - 00:09:11.289

what contact I come in to the schools, Uh, I have a large family, for example, and I've been in and out of schools over the last 1015 years. How many, uh, how many children do you have? 11 children. Let me see. 10 now with the loss

00:09:11.289 - 00:09:37.570

of a son last year around this time. But, uh, Uh, I don't, I don't see the, the missionary zeal with respect to imparting education to young black folks that was apparent. Uh, back in those days. Uh, Over that period of time, we've witnessed, uh, Almost a

00:09:37.570 - 00:09:58.950

complete breakdown of the family. As a sociological structure in the black community. And, uh, increase in violence and disrespect. Um-hum. Shown by the child, uh, to the teacher, and I'm sure this has had some effect on, on how much a teacher cares about his job. Um.

00:09:58.969 - 00:10:22.080

Nowadays, you know. Uh, You said breakdown of the family. I'd like to chase that point a little bit. With, with, with 10 kids. Obviously, you have some ideas of your own about family, and I'm interested in, Uh, your concept of what the black family is and

00:10:22.080 - 00:10:43.750

should be doing and that kind of. Well, that too would require a great deal more study and, and thought than I've given it. Uh, my feelings about the family are, are strictly personal. My observations may not be relevant to anything other than my own situation. But

00:10:43.750 - 00:11:08.340

I strongly feel that the black man, Has an obligation. Uh, first of all, to his own sense of self-respect, if he's gonna call himself a man and if he has a family, uh, he has a duty to that family. Mm. And If he can search within

00:11:08.340 - 00:11:28.799

himself and find, What is vaguely defined as love. Um, then that's his first obligation is to love his family. Um-hum. That is. all of his other obligations follow from that. If you love your family, you will provide for them. Um-hum. If you love your family, you

00:11:28.799 - 00:11:48.770

will keep your family together. Um-hum. You'll weather the storms, you know. Um, There are many reasons why the black family has broken up, and they're all reasons that you can find in the history books and the sociology books. And they have a great deal to do,

00:11:49.109 - 00:12:09.369

uh, with the emasculation of the black man and, uh, what happens to him with respect to employment and unemployment. Um-hum. And the kinds of jobs and training and education that he can get. Uh, particularly as we go back in time, uh, there was considerably less opportunity.

00:12:09.609 - 00:12:30.099

It was considerably more difficult for the black man to support his wife and his family. And, uh, I feel that the black man has an obligation to his family and through his family, uh, to his race and from there to the human race as a whole.

00:12:31.450 - 00:12:51.580

Um We find principles, uh, manifest even in the animal kingdom. Um, where? Without apparently any forethought or reason about the thing. It's just a matter of instinct or nature. Uh-huh. That the parents provide for the young. They take care of them up to a certain point,

00:12:51.590 - 00:13:10.219

and it's, Out on their own. You were talking about education, the difficulty of getting an education. You said you went to College. Do you have a degree from there? No, I do not. Uh, again, money was, was, uh, one of the big factors. I left here

00:13:10.219 - 00:13:32.530

on, Uh, my family was poor. Um-hum. I left here on an athletic, Uh, scholarship disguised as an academic scholarship. In other words, Uh, I mentioned earlier that I was lucky enough to, Uh, make all state and all league all star. Um-hum. But around that time I

00:13:32.530 - 00:13:52.979

also became interested in knowledge for its own sake. Um-hum. For, Uh, what personal enrichment value it would have for me as an individual. So I began studying, uh, seriously. When you say around this time, you're talking about, about the time that you go off to college.

00:13:53.130 - 00:14:18.640

Right. Which is 53, 54. OK. And I, uh, uh, Rejected several athletic scholarships because. Hmm. I didn't want to be an athletic pawn. Uh-huh. And I accepted an academic scholarship to Cole College, and on my arrival there, I found that it was in reality. An athletic

00:14:18.640 - 00:14:35.280

scholar. An athletic scholar. He wanted me to go out for everything they had. Uh-huh. And, uh, I turned that down, and when I turned that down, I found I had to, Get as much education as I could the best way I could, which meant to find

00:14:35.280 - 00:14:57.890

a job and to pay my way with whatever help I could get from my father, uh. So, um, I did not get a degree, a degree from, uh, From Coe College. Oh. I had received an AA degree from the Lincoln, Lincoln Junior College here in Kansas

00:14:57.890 - 00:15:14.679

City. OK, which as I understand it, was a pretty fine junior college. It was such a fine junior college that when I got to the college campus, for example. Um-hum. Uh, I was already familiar with the work that they were doing. Um. There, because I had

00:15:14.679 - 00:15:32.250

been exposed to all of it at Lincoln Junior College. And I found that I could spend most of my time in the libraries doing advanced research on other projects. Um-hum. And go and take final examinations. Uh-huh. On the strength of what I had learned at Lincoln

00:15:32.250 - 00:15:49.909

Junior College. Um-hum and I passed them, you know, with no sweat. Where was that college located? Uh, one of my intellectual heroes from that period is Doctor, uh, Jeremiah Cameron, who's, who's teaching at, at, uh, chairman of the English department. Um-hum. Pen Valley now. Another is

00:15:49.909 - 00:16:10.659

Doctor, uh, Bryant. Uh, Gerard. Yeah, Gerard T. Bryant. Another is Trussie Smothers. When you came out of those people's classes, you knew something. Uh-huh. You know, you had earned your grades, and if your grades were pretty high, uh, you were ready to compete with the best

00:16:10.659 - 00:16:26.210

white students on earth. At that time, was Dr. Cameron teaching at Lincoln Junior College? Yes, he was. I see, I see. I forget what I had, oh, I think I took psychology. Uh-huh. Doctor Cameron. I don't know what else he was teaching. Probably English and. Um-hum.

00:16:26.530 - 00:16:45.760

Two or three other subjects. I see. He had obtained his doctorates by then. Right. OK, let's talk about music. Uh, probably my earliest exposure to music came from my mother who used to play the guitar and sing us to sleep, uh, as babies, yeah. And by

00:16:45.760 - 00:17:05.670

the time I was 5 or 6 years old, we had, of course, moved. To Kansas City, Missouri. And that must have been around 32, as we mentioned earlier, 32 or 33. And this area was a hotbed of local jazz, the Kansas City area, yeah, it was

00:17:05.670 - 00:17:28.030

a hotbed of local jazz creativity, um. Music was everywhere. It was music was a way of life for the average black Kansas City because there was nowhere you could turn that you would not be exposed to some form of musical influence. You're talking about improvisational music.

00:17:28.410 - 00:17:55.930

Yes, I'm talking about the spontaneous, uh, music that comes up out of a musician's mind and heart and soul. OK, we're talking about the black man's music, which was, uh, highly spontaneous and, and, Innately creative. I'd like to nail something down, if we could. You say

00:17:55.930 - 00:18:21.280

improvisational music. Um, By this, do you mean what we consider jazz, or are you talking about other musics, or why are the use of the term improvisational music? Well, uh, I'm speaking basically of jazz, of what is called jazz. Uh-huh. And one of jazz's most outstanding

00:18:21.280 - 00:18:46.750

characteristics, and it has several, is improvisation. And again this is uh just like the word jazz itself anything connected with it is difficult to define uh with language other than musical language, but, uh, basically it means to, uh, improve upon something upon a musical theme or

00:18:46.750 - 00:19:16.250

idea with feeling. OK, improvisational means that, yes, OK, and, uh. It can get pretty stretched out because it implies, uh, some kind of, Basic knowledge of music with respect to cards and And melodies and rhythms. And all of the combinations that those are capable of and

00:19:16.250 - 00:19:37.910

it's these uh spontaneous on the spot putting of all of those elements together. Uh, through the technique called improvisation where you're literally thinking and feeling and playing on your feet without a piece of paper in front of you, I see, uh, that, that is so strongly

00:19:37.910 - 00:19:58.199

identified and, and shaped the character of the black man's music and especially his contribution, uh, that we call jazz. So you're talking about this music, this improvisational music going on in Kansas City and the 30s when we first came here. When did you yourself first pick

00:19:58.199 - 00:20:18.369

up the instrument, and when you picked up that instrument, was it this kind of music, this improvisational music that you began to play? Well, um, I developed an increasing interest in music as the years went by and Uh, by the time I had finished high school

00:20:18.369 - 00:20:35.390

here in Kansas City, I Uh, really wanted to get off into music, but in discussing it with my father. Uh, he felt like it might not be the best thing to do because it took so long to become a finished musician and there was so much

00:20:35.390 - 00:20:59.550

unemployment. So, I didn't really get off into music until I was 21, 22. years of age. I waited. So, you're talking about the late 40s now. And when I did get off into it, yes, uh, my greatest interest was jazz, the improvisational, uh, type of music.

00:21:01.229 - 00:21:25.819

And uh I have a continuing interest in music which isn't confined solely to jazz. Music is music and if it's good. Uh, in my opinion, it is worthy of, of listening to and participating in, but you yourself play the guitar, right? Yes. What are the qualities

00:21:26.599 - 00:21:51.180

of music, you know, when you say it's good, what are the qualities that make it good? OK, again, uh, you've asked a practically impossible question because that boils down to a personal value judgment in practically every case. You could say that a musician. Who plays the

00:21:51.180 - 00:22:19.459

horn, has good intonation, good articulation. A good tone. Um-hum. Uh, it's precise and rhythmical. And It still may not be good music to me because there may be an element missing, uh, that I call feeling or soul. Uh, another musician can have feeling and soul and

00:22:19.459 - 00:22:41.680

lack all or some of the other qualities missing and not measure up, uh, to the mark. It's when all of those things are going in some kind of a relatively perfect blend. So, the, Uh, I really enjoy what I hear. Everything is right. That's what I

00:22:41.680 - 00:23:01.489

call good music, and it makes no difference what any of them is saying, whether it's jazz or classic or other. What are a few of the pieces, jazz or classic? Uh, whatever that you, you know, from this personal standpoint, consider good music historically, uh, you know,

00:23:01.609 - 00:23:19.300

going back as far as you'd like to go back, or, uh, is recent. I see. That again is a difficult question. And if I had a discography before me at some later point, I might say something entirely different from what I'm getting ready to say now.

00:23:20.500 - 00:23:44.859

But I can clearly remember, for example, When I first heard Jay McShane's band. Um-hum. To me and he had Charlie Parker with him. Doing things like Hootie's Blues and swingmatism. To me, uh, that music was saying something. It did something. It made something run up and

00:23:44.859 - 00:24:02.349

down your spine or did something to the top of your head or made your feet move uncontrollably or your body sway or something, you know, a smile come to your face, you know. I can remember further back, Uh, as a child hearing cowboy music that I

00:24:02.349 - 00:24:26.750

liked. And certainly religious music that uh just seemed to lift one physically up uh body and soul. Um-hum. The early gospel and religious music, uh, Had no parallels in my opinion. Who were the people singing this early gospel and religious music, and were any of them

00:24:26.750 - 00:24:47.339

around Kansas City? The music that I'm speaking of, I really don't know, uh, the names of the people. For example, we would go on a vacation to Through Kansas and Oklahoma each, each summer. Um-hum. And in some of the backwoods churches in little towns in Oklahoma

00:24:47.339 - 00:25:08.739

like Hinton. Hit in Oklahoma. In the backwoods churches where the people would come early in the morning and bring big boxes of lunch. Um-hum. The singing and the praying and the preaching lasted from morning, uh, through the noon hour into the early evening. And you would

00:25:08.739 - 00:25:32.609

leave there lifted up because of the nature and the quality and quality. Here's the keyword, the quality of the music, and this was mostly vocal music accompanied by tambourines and handclaps and shouts and foot stomps. Um, Names, I don't remember any of them. I was just

00:25:32.609 - 00:25:52.670

a child at the time. OK, you mentioned Jay McShane. Um, He was originally a Kansas City musician, right? I mean, he was, he was in Kansas City around the time that you're talking about in the 30s and he's a pianist, pianist, yes, and a bandleader and

00:25:52.670 - 00:26:16.300

bandleader. What kind of things would you say about him? I mean, there must be something that, that should be said about him, you know, being one of the first people who, who Parker played with. I'd say that Jay had a, A unique ability. To organize for

00:26:16.300 - 00:26:46.180

one thing. He was organized people and music. Jay was a strong, uh, pianist. With, uh, Blues inflection and all of his playing, even when it was, when he was playing ballads or some other. Um-hum. Type of music. And he put together uh Group of local musicians.

00:26:47.390 - 00:27:11.459

That emerged as one of the finest bands in the country. And it was because of Jay's musicianship. At one time, his musicianship was more intuitive than trained, although that is not now the case. And uh, He was a strong leader. And he was aggressive. Uh, as

00:27:11.459 - 00:27:35.170

good leaders had to be in those days if they wanted to work regularly. And he was smart enough to uh Encourage and secure the work of local writers and arrangers. Uh, one name in particular occurs to me. I forget many of the others, but there was

00:27:35.170 - 00:27:55.560

a writer named Scott who I believe was, was murdered in the YMCA at 19th and the sale, and I don't remember the year there either. Probably in the early 50s. Um-hum. But this was a fantastic arranger, a local arranger, and Jay McShand was smart enough to

00:27:55.560 - 00:28:19.900

use him and, and several others who contributed memorable arrangements to the band. He used uh musicians of such fine caliber. That Practically each one of those musicians who were individual players in his band went on to establish some degree of fame and fortune for themselves as

00:28:19.900 - 00:28:45.910

outstanding, uh, individual musicians. Sally Parker is most of most obvious example of people you're talking about who played with JMXM, but who are others? Well, also guys like uh Gus Johnson on drums. Uh, mainstay with the Basie band for years, Gus Johnson, Gene Ramie, one of

00:28:45.910 - 00:29:12.339

the most powerful bassists in modern history of jazz, uh, men like John Jackson, who is still in Kansas City and still active musically, a saxophonist who was #2 alto behind Charlie Parker, #2 alto in the nation. Um, Walter Brown, a vocalist who became nationally famous, uh,

00:29:12.500 - 00:29:32.930

Arvill Minor, trumpet player who still amazes the musical world because at 70 years of age he can play one or two trumpets with no teeth, and that's physically impossible, but he does it, you know, just, just to give you some idea. Excuse me. Of the caliber

00:29:32.930 - 00:29:55.020

of players. Um-hum. Um, there was a trombonist. His name will come to me in a moment, but this trombone player went on to become uh Featured soloist, uh, a strong member of the brass section of Dizzy Gillespie's orchestra, and you had to be practically a genius

00:29:55.020 - 00:30:17.920

to get into those orchestras. Diaz and Cab Calloway and Duke Ellington and Count Basie, uh. Great, uh, big black bands was so extremely high that you can safely say that, uh, the only people who. Gained entry into those bands were those who qualified as among the

00:30:17.920 - 00:30:40.400

best musicians on earth at the time. And this was a feature, a characteristic feature of Jay McShand's bands, all of his bands featured the best musicians available. I see. Um, Now I can also remember some as we talked some earlier musical influences, uh, have drifted into

00:30:40.400 - 00:31:05.199

the minds from time to time bands like Erskine Hawkins, uh, Lewis Jordan. Lewis Jordan was the just died recently, right? The guy you see that in California was California tunes like Caledonia. And, uh, smaller groups like uh the King Cole Trio and we had Oscar Moore

00:31:05.199 - 00:31:31.030

playing guitar with him uh all excellent first-rate musicians. Uh, with the musical message and, and a way that communicated with the masses, their styles were well received. Mhm Why is it that isn't, that there isn't that much music happening in Kansas City anymore? Or is that?

00:31:32.900 - 00:32:11.030

Well, Um, I'm speaking comparatively now. In the 50s. As the new music introduced by Parker and a few others. Uh, Developed. There was a public reaction, uh, against abstraction, uh, in music because, and this again is a personal opinion, but I think it's because the, uh,

00:32:11.040 - 00:32:38.229

beat. The identity of the rhythmic units, uh, was lost to the man in the street and the, uh, melodic lines became so totally or so relatively abstract again for the man in the street. That he could no longer identify, uh, or dance to the music, the

00:32:38.229 - 00:33:06.089

new music, so rhythm and blues gained increasing popularity. And uh, as it did. The advanced jazz musicians either had to play rhythm and blues or starve because they were so their music was so unpopular that they couldn't work regularly. Well, this led to a decline, uh,

00:33:06.150 - 00:33:25.209

of the large bands. Also, because it costs more to hire a 16 piece orchestra, for example, for which there was little demand than it did to hire a 5 to 7 piece combo playing rhythm and blues for which there was an increasing or greater demand. Uh,

00:33:25.260 - 00:33:48.170

this demand was for rhythm and blues was spurred on by the nation's disc jockeys and, uh. Jazz. The kind of jazz that we're referring to, uh, gradually dropped out of the picture and declined in Kansas City because the market for rhythm and blues and the evolving

00:33:48.170 - 00:34:10.540

rock and roll and soul music, uh, was greater than the demand for jazz. Uh, As the demand for their product disappeared, jazz musicians who no longer could be employed regularly and support their families. Played less and moved more into other occupations. They became clerks at the

00:34:10.540 - 00:34:31.849

post office. Uh, they went to city hall and worked in various capacities for the city. They obtained odd odd jobs or regular employment whenever and wherever they could, and less and less time was spent, uh, with the development of their jazz music. OK. That's one of

00:34:31.849 - 00:34:55.090

the reasons for the decline. Uh, the other part of your question as to, Whether jazz is or is not as prevalent today, uh, within the past couple of years, in my opinion, there has been a, An increasing resurgence of live jazz in Kansas City. Um-hum. It's

00:34:55.090 - 00:35:15.070

still mostly underground. And the most intense jazz available is usually found in jam sessions and jazz sessions. Um-hum. Uh, which, many of which are not open to the general public or not known to the general public as a rule. Um. But, uh, the intensity is picking

00:35:15.070 - 00:35:36.620

up. The frequency with which this is happening is picking up. Uh-huh. And the city fathers even have just recently begun to realize, The importance of jazz as it relates to the viability of the downtown area, for example. Uh-huh. And there's a move underfoot and behind the

00:35:36.620 - 00:35:58.330

scenes to revitalize, Uh, jazz to refocus, uh, the attention and, and some support and participation in that direction. You got me loaded with now that I wanna ask. One thing first, uh, what can you go and hear good jazz in Kansas City today? OK. I just

00:35:58.330 - 00:36:18.709

heard a thing within the hour. Charles Darch, who is band director at Southeast High School and has a good sharp, uh, youth aggregation coming up, a big band under his direction, mentioned that over the weekend he had stopped in at a place called Mark 4 which

00:36:18.709 - 00:36:34.189

I believe is on East 63rd Street just east of the sale in the shopping center there. Uh, it seems that they have good live jazz, and he was, he was pretty high on what he had heard over the weekend, and he, in my opinion, is a,

00:36:34.669 - 00:36:56.260

uh, a connoisseur. He knows good music when he hears it. Uh, another place, and you can never predict when it's going to happen, but it happens, uh, all the time, is the Mutual Musicians Foundation at 1823 Highland where I was formerly, uh, secretary treasurer of the

00:36:56.260 - 00:37:16.310

former Black Musicians Union there, and from experience I can say that some of the most fantastic jazz you ever heard. Uh, has come up out of that building and continues to do so because after the musicians have worked on the weekends, have gotten their second winds,

00:37:16.439 - 00:37:36.260

by the time they really feel like setting down and blowing, the place is closing. Um-hum. So they drift on down to the foundation and 10, 23 o'clock in the morning, they're cooking. Yeah, I see. OK. Uh, and, uh, there are several other spots around town that

00:37:36.260 - 00:37:58.919

are cultivating or recultivating, uh, an accent on jazz. Uh, Saturday afternoon jam sessions are happening out here on a place around 85th and War, is it Pandora's box? Yeah, Pandora's Box. Uh-huh. And, uh, Oh, I can't think of all the places, but as they pop into

00:37:58.919 - 00:38:21.139

my mind, I'll, I'll mention them from time to time. A couple of, um. Kind of technical questions. One thing you were talking about rhythm and blues coming emerging in the forefront in, in, in jazz consequently uh being pushed to the back background. Doesn't rhythm and blues

00:38:21.139 - 00:38:49.530

grow out of jazz. They're all related. Uh, rhythm and blues as I see it, Evolves from what you could call country blues. Um-hum. And the transformation it undergoes when it reaches urban centers. Uh-huh. That have had some degree of jazz development where the accent is more

00:38:49.530 - 00:39:10.320

on rhythm. Uh-huh. And with this merger of country blues and urban rhythms. OK. And I've never heard it defined like this, but your question, uh, raised this answer in my mind because that's what it appears to me, uh, to be. As country blues. Meet and merge

00:39:10.320 - 00:39:33.149

with urban rhythms, we have a development called rhythm and blues. Which they exert a counter influence on each other. Um, You keep saying blues, and you're talking about blues as part of, uh, as a, as a part of jazz. You mentioned blues in the context of

00:39:33.149 - 00:39:55.419

jazz. You mentioned blues in the context of of country music. Um, What do you mean when you say blues because I have some idea that refers to a lot of music that we hear, but. People don't understand that, uh, a lot of music is actually blues

00:39:55.419 - 00:40:13.330

and that, or I'm of the impression that a lot of jazz itself is blues, you know, played through the jazz idiom. I, I there's a lot of confusion there, and I don't think the answer will ever be solved because when you come right down to a

00:40:13.330 - 00:40:43.629

strict definition, you have to once again use words to define. And, uh, Blues is essentially, A musical statement of sorrow. Uh-huh. Or pain. Uh-huh. And in order to do that, you normally have to use, uh, minors as opposed to majors. Um-hum. The minor, for some reason,

00:40:43.649 - 00:41:08.120

strikes a responsive note somewhere in the human nervous system. Um-hum. That evokes an association with previous sorrow. Um-hum. Or pain or hardship. Um-hum. Or denial or whatever has made you feel bad. Um-hum. Would you say this has been captured by the American black man and cast

00:41:08.120 - 00:41:31.110

into a farm, which is even at one stage in its development at X number of bars. Yeah. And a certain arrangement that would identify it as the blues farm. Well, would you say that, For instance, a book like, uh, Leroy Jones's Blues People. Uh, I don't

00:41:31.110 - 00:41:51.860

know whether you're familiar with the book, but anyhow, one of the things that he does in the book is. Is make a socio-political connection between blues and the suffering of blacks and the idea is that Blues is possible for blacks because of our sociopolitical position in

00:41:51.860 - 00:42:12.219

this country. I would agree with that. OK. I would agree with that. I would say that our sociopolitical condition in this country, from our first introduction to this soil, Has played a strong role in the development of the idiom that we call blues and has been

00:42:12.219 - 00:42:35.590

to some extent largely responsible. To the extent that, that our history has been in a way full of sorrow and full of pain. Yeah. I see. Um, OK, when you were talking about Rhythm and blues and jazz. You were saying that jazz became more abstract. Are

00:42:35.590 - 00:42:59.419

there any Reasons that come to mind for that phenomena occurring. You know, why does jazz become more abstract? Why are the musicians pushing it to that? I would say as a result of a, a chain of musical discoveries, Which certainly didn't begin with Charlie Parker, but

00:42:59.419 - 00:43:36.129

they reached perhaps their highest, uh, Uh, Theoretical development and exposition with Charlie Parker. Um-hum. Uh, The keys to musical relativity. Um-hum. Opened. Pathways that allowed for greater, uh, abstraction. Mhm. And musicians are essentially explorers. Um. If you give them access to an unused route. Uh-huh. In

00:43:36.129 - 00:43:51.500

music. They want to see where it's leading. Uh-huh. You know, and if by the same, or, if at the same time you give them the theoretical basis, which enables them to take a journey into the unknown and return safely to home base, whether it's the key

00:43:51.500 - 00:44:11.620

of C or F or whatever. Um-hum. Then, The exploration is guaranteed. And if it turns out that that route, Takes them along a pathway of abstraction then they explore that for whatever they can get out of it in terms of their knowledge and training and and

00:44:11.620 - 00:44:35.270

emotional benefits. Actually, what you're saying is that the, Decline of jazz that we've, you know. That we witnessed through the 60s, I guess, you, Or maybe a little earlier. Yeah, the late 50s. Excuse me, that decline is actually something that the musicians created themselves with their

00:44:35.270 - 00:45:00.169

exploration, uh, and their, and their goal to push music to higher or different kinds of levels. Yes, I would agree with that. Uh, Because in reality, The so-called decline of jazz really, Only shows what happened to the music commercially. Um-hum. Despite the fact that jazz, jazz

00:45:00.169 - 00:45:26.919

all but disappeared from the market. Um-hum. As such, Behind the scenes. There was no lessening of that intensive exploration. The discovery oriented approach to music exemplified by jazz musicians, it was just that you couldn't become as easily aware of what was happening because the guys who

00:45:26.919 - 00:45:43.239

make the records, the guys who control the radio stations. Decided that it was unprofitable. Not enough people were interested in what was happening, uh, in the front lines of jazz, and they weren't interested. They wouldn't pay for it. They wouldn't pay for it. The profits wouldn't

00:45:43.239 - 00:46:03.459

come in, so you didn't hear about it, but it was still going on. It's. I don't think it'll ever stop. There's, uh, Yesterday, uh, Sunday in Sunday's Kansas City Star in the arts and entertainment section, there was an article about a new magazine that's coming out

00:46:03.459 - 00:46:24.040

of New York called Jazz Magazine. And The writer of the of the article mentions, you know, 2 or 3 articles, 4 articles that were, uh, in this first issue or first or the second issue or something in the magazine. And he said that, One of the

00:46:24.040 - 00:46:48.610

articles contained the piece about Herbie Hancock, the pianist. And so the Hancock is now going back from the electric music, electronic music to Uh, the regular piano. Could I get you to talk about that because it seems to be an interesting phenomenon, phenomenon to me. One

00:46:48.610 - 00:47:17.070

thing, the electric and electronic music. And. Any kind of trends that you see developing with electronic music or. Other news, like, uh, for the, for, for the future. I'm, I'm glad you raised that point. Um, Because it's really important to the development, Of the jazz musician's

00:47:17.070 - 00:47:49.149

capabilities, let's say, as a professional musician. Many top flight jazz musicians, uh, after starving practically to death for years. Decided they would go with whatever was selling. Um-hum. So, Herbie Hancock and many others. Uh, hopped onto the electronic train and, and took that journey. They made

00:47:49.149 - 00:48:25.729

money. Um-hum. But these men are basically artists. Um. Who accept the challenge. That music presents, uh, to a musician. And as they got deeper into the electronic, uh, mode of musical expression, I, I think they began to discover that their technique. As a musician, Was Leaving

00:48:25.729 - 00:48:46.949

them or they were losing their technique because the electronic. Uh, approach does not place a demand on their technique. Um-hum. That the non-electronic approach does. Um-hum. In other words, if you can press one button and get 50 sounds. Um-hum. Whereas, as opposed to that, without electronics,

00:48:46.989 - 00:49:01.699

you have to play all 50 sounds. OK. And maybe you have to play them within a given space of a bar at a certain tempo, which only gives you maybe a fraction of a second. Um-hum. To know what notes can be played within that card. Um,

00:49:03.070 - 00:49:21.790

It's like the law of use and disuse. Um-hum. If you don't use your muscles, they will atrophy. Um-hum. Well, the creative principle is pretty much, uh, the same with respect to music. Um-hum. If you do not actively create, If you use your hands to create, if

00:49:21.790 - 00:49:43.020

you don't use them as much with electronic music as you did with the non electronic music, pretty soon you can't use them as much as you formerly did. Um-hum. You lose your technique and as this happens, Uh, The demand of creativity are such. I think to

00:49:43.020 - 00:50:02.169

the black musician that it poses a personal challenge to the use of his mind, his imagination, his feelings. Uh, the depths and the heights, uh, that he can reach, what it is that he wants to express and how he wishes to express it. And I think

00:50:03.929 - 00:50:21.000

That in the back of his mind somewhere is the feeling that electronics is more of the white man's music than it is the black man's. And he wants to get back to his own thing. I'm going to push this, this discussion a little further. With two

00:50:21.000 - 00:50:41.429

things. One thing is that a lot of musicians would say, well, we're in a technological society, and the use of electronic music is just a manifestation of the fact that we're in a technological society, technological music for a technological society. I understand. But I'm also thinking

00:50:41.429 - 00:51:06.520

about an interview that I heard with Charlie Mingus. And some of the radio station in New York. And a guy interviewing Mingus said, well, what do you think about Miles? And Mingus said, Miles, who? Isn't he dead? And he went on. He went on to I

00:51:06.520 - 00:51:23.090

say that he remembered Miles when Miles used to play with Bird, who we're going to get around to talking about. But But. He thought that when Miles was playing with Bird, Miles would really enjoyed playing music, that Miles would come in and play all night. But

00:51:23.090 - 00:51:38.070

now Miles just seemed to be making money. Well, I'm talking about Miles Davis. But now Miles just seemed to be coming in making money, and all of the fun had left out of Miles' music. I'm interested in you talking about those two ways of looking at

00:51:38.449 - 00:51:57.739

the electronic and the, I think he's looking at it the same way that I'm looking at it. That Mingus is. Yes, that Mingus is drawing, Uh, pretty much the same conclusions that I draw and for pretty much the same reasons. Uh-huh. OK, so Mingus is thinking

00:51:57.739 - 00:52:19.750

pretty much like you are. I think so. Uh, And I don't wanna. Mislead anyone. There are lots of exciting things happening. Um-hum. With electronic music. Um-hum. And there's a great deal of it that I can really listen to and appreciate for what it is, but it

00:52:19.750 - 00:52:55.790

still is only electronic music. Um-hum. This thing of, of personal, Exploration. And discovery. Um-hum. Uh, The pioneering spirit that seems to mark the advanced figures in jazz. Um-hum. I don't think it's, it's possible in the same emotional context. Mhm. With electronic music. As it is with

00:52:55.790 - 00:53:24.629

non-electronic music, where you have to depend upon yourself. And your mastery of the techniques of evoking sounds, for example, from your instrument. Um-hum. Musicians are engaged in Discovering new frontiers for sound from the instruments that they have, for example. Um-hum. Bird was a pioneer in that

00:53:24.629 - 00:53:47.959

respect. He came up with a new tone for the alto saxophone. Let's talk about Charlie Parker, Yardbird. Well, that's somebody we could talk about forever. OK. This place is what consecrated in his name. Yes. Uh, the Charlie Parker Memorial Foundation. Um, And why, you know, why

00:53:47.959 - 00:54:10.659

is Bird such a good musician that um That a place like this would be in his name. Why do people go around, a lot of people go around saying bird lives and. That's a good question. And, uh, That phrase bird lives sprang up within just a

00:54:10.659 - 00:54:32.290

few hours. After his death became known. To the inner circle and then the world at large. And within a few more hours, it had spread quickly all over the face of the free world. Um-hum. And that is some indication as to the, Respect and the love,

00:54:32.459 - 00:54:56.790

uh, that people all over the face of the earth have for Charlie Parker. And that love and respect and admiration is based upon what he accomplished as a jazz musician, as an artist. Uh, we talked earlier about, uh, relativity. Um-hum. And the key role that Charlie

00:54:56.790 - 00:55:24.840

Parker played as perhaps the chief exponent and theoretician. The guy who put it all together. Um-hum. Uh, his contribution was, was outstanding and unending. And the phrase bird lives summarizes, Uh, let's say the immortality of his musical contributions because they continue as a mainspring. Uh, for

00:55:24.840 - 00:55:55.820

many developments that are taking place in modern music today. Um-hum. Uh, Byrd introduced strings. Um-hum. With jazz. Bird introduced, uh, Uh, counterpoint. With jazz. And today's composers and arrangers are just finding, Increasingly new applications. Could. Of things that were, The nucleus of many of Byrd's approaches

00:55:55.820 - 00:56:26.800

to modern music. Could you explain what you mean by counterpoint? Well, let's, let's put it into, uh, Uh, practical example. Um, If there's a point here, In space, let's say at the North Pole. Um-hum. Then the counterpoint in space would be at the south pole. Um-hum.

00:56:27.770 - 00:56:43.909

So, if there's a rhythm here. Um-hum. At the north pole, it's counter rhythm would be at the south pole. I see. If it's on the, uh, eastern horizon, its counterpoint would be at the western horizon, whether that's a rhythm or a tone. Um-hum. Does that help

00:56:43.909 - 00:57:00.469

any? OK, and that's what Bird was doing. He'd play a rhythm and then play its counterpoint. Is that what you? Well, he composed, uh, in that manner. Um-hum. And, uh, he arranged, uh, in that manner, and he introduced the use of that, which had been a

00:57:00.469 - 00:57:27.590

longtime feature of classical music, for example. Um-hum. Into jazz. Uh what, what does it add to the music? Does, does it add, uh, Arrhythmic effect or dementia. OK. It adds another observable dimension, which can include the tones, the rhythms, the colors of the shadings, the emotional,

00:57:28.750 - 00:57:50.750

whatever the emotional influence is projected. Um-hum. Uh, through the added music. Comes across as something else for the listener to experience OK. Simultaneously. Let me see if I can understand what you're saying. If you played something that was very happy, Uh, then its counterpoint would be

00:57:50.750 - 00:58:10.899

something that's sad, at least it's a good example. OK. And that's the kind of thing that bird would introduce. Um-hum. Let's see. Consequently, consequently, what, what opens up is the possibility of greater variation. Right. OK. I see. Um, what else about bird? Well, Bird was a

00:58:10.899 - 00:58:37.629

fantastic musician, incredible musician as far as musicianship alone, uh, is concerned. For example, uh, professional saxophone players in his day used Uh, 22 1/2, and number 3, reeds. Um-hum. Which is an indication of their thickness and difficulty one has with making them vibrate and evoke a

00:58:37.629 - 00:59:02.239

sound. Parker came up with a new tone for her. Alto saxophone players. Uh, you could identify an alto saxophone player by one of two or three, major exponents as far as tone was concerned. Johnny Hodges. Uh, Benny Carter and maybe one or two other guys, but

00:59:02.239 - 00:59:22.520

when Burt came along, his tone, his sound was totally different. Uh-huh. And one of the ways that he achieved this was through the use of a number 5 reed. Um-hum. Which the average alto sax on the alto saxophone, which the average, uh, professional alto saxophonist couldn't

00:59:22.520 - 00:59:42.489

get a sound out of because it was too stiff for him. Um-hum. And Bird played any and everything he wanted to, even at incredibly fast tempos with the number 5 reed. Uh-huh. He could see. As musicians say, around the corner, Bird might be reading 15 to

00:59:42.489 - 01:00:02.560

20 bars ahead of a piece of written music at a tempo way up, you know, uh, he could think faster than any man alive, uh, on a musical instrument. We talked about improvisation. That's where you have to know what you can play. If the melody is

01:00:02.560 - 01:00:20.820

a certain thing, it has a certain, uh, harmonic, uh, underpinning or chordal background. Um-hum. And within each card there are certain notes that are appropriate to that card and that relate in a certain way to that melody. All of this is on the move.