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This is Ella Pruitt. I'm interviewing Mr. Charles Dwight, who is a public administrator for the Kansas City, Missouri School District, being elementary principal at Gladstone Elementary School. The school is located 331 North Elmwood. This is February 9, 1976. The time is 9:52. We'll begin the interview

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with Mr. Dwight, uh, covering his early childhood. Mr. Dwight, will you tell me where you were born, possibly something about your parents, uh, their, uh, biographical information, what brought them to Kansas City, and also siblings if you have any. Ella, I was born in Kansas City,

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Kansas. Um, my parents are Mr. and Mrs. Ernestine Norman at this time. My father has passed. Uh, 2 years ago. My family is predominantly from Mobile, Alabama. And the reason they are, they came to Kansas City, Kansas was that. My grandmother. Married. My grandfather, who was

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from Kansas City, Kansas, and they decided to move from Mobile, Alabama to Kansas City, Kansas. My mother is employed at the Central Bank Company where she has worked for some 27 years or more. She has since been remarried to Marvin Norman. Who at this time is

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employed by the Kansas City, Missouri School Board as a custodian at the Kansas City Technical Center. OK, Mr. Dwight, now you are, you've lived in Kansas City, Kansas all your life growing up, your early childhood from elementary school, what elementary school did you attend in Kansas

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City, Kansas? I attended the Grant School. Elementary school in Kansas City, Kansas. My junior high school was the Northeast Junior High. And Sumner High School was the school in which I graduated. During this time, what type of recreational activities were available to black children? Uh, did

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they have the what, uh, the YMCA or YWCA? Were there different maybe, uh, field trips or recreational activities provided by the church? At this time, Ella, my, during my elementary school years, there wasn't a lot provided for blacks. We mostly had our recreation after school on

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the school grounds and up and down the streets and in the streets and sometimes in the back alleys. Uh, as I moved on to junior high school. We We then introduced or invited to come to the Y. That Y is still in existence at 6:44 Quindaro.

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Uh, we could go there on Friday evenings to what we used to call Y Teen Town. And this was a big event during the junior high school years. We also had the Sumner Recreation on 9th and Everett at that time. Um, That the school is now

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there. Um, where we could go and. In the evening, spend some time. Playing sports and things. OK, Mr. Dwight, you told me during the preliminary interview that you've always been active in church. Now I know at the uh. Present you are a member and also a

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deacon at uh Pleasant Green Baptist Church in Kansas City, Kansas. During the time that you were growing up, were you also a member of Pleasant Green or was there another church in which you were active at that time? Well, Ella, in my young years, and I

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say elementary years, my grandmother was a member of the Church of God in Christ. And uh uh I was raised up in that church. Uh, they call it even then and now, the Holiness Church. And, um, when I did get up to be about 18 years

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of age, I decided for myself to join the Baptist Church. I always liked the Baptist Church because the Church of God in Christ started at 11 o'clock in the mornings and we didn't get out until 3 o'clock in the afternoons and then uh mom always carried

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a basket that meant that I was at church all day. And uh we didn't go home. We'd have our little basket lunch in the basement of the church and then ride back up to the church at 5 o'clock and then sometimes we wouldn't get home till

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11. And the kids used to pass right by my house coming from Pleasant Green Baptist Church. They attended Sunday school at 9 o'clock and was out at 10 and church started at 11 and they were out of school, out of church at 12, and that was

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all. They could go to the theater after that, but whereas you were still in church. That's right. So that was a big decision for me to make, but I just, yes, I can imagine. OK, uh, Mr. Dwight. You told me that you graduated from Sumner and

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uh you were drafted right from high school right from after you finished college, right? I went to college in uh Manhattan, Kansas State uh for 2 years and then uh I was drafted into the service where I spent. 2.5 years in the army. He served in

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Korea. It was just at that time they called it police action. Do you recall approximately how much money The armed services paid during that time, do you? Yes, Ella, I received $91 a month. At that time, were there any more fringe benefits such as now, meaning

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when you When your time was up with the service, maybe you would be eligible for a GI bill. Was there anything like that, maybe dental programs that was in existence, Ella. They had the, uh, GI bill where you could go to school after you finished your

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tour of duty. While in the service, I had the benefits of, uh, dental care, medical care, uh, just all of the, uh, things that they now seem to offer. It wasn't too much difference at the time. OK, now let's back up a little. Now, going to,

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uh, You told me also you did you earned some of your uh BA credit at Western Baptist and also at the National College. Now during the time that you were at uh Western Baptist and National College, did you participate at that time in any organizations? What

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type of recreational functions were available to you then, or was it mostly study and go to class? Well, now, at Western Baptist, that, at that time and uh I would say almost now, the staff was integrated. Uh, but the Students themselves were black. I went to

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Western, uh, predominantly to study religious courses because I was involved at that time and still am at the Pleasant Green Baptist Church as a Sunday school teacher and as the superintendent of Sunday school. So I went there for 4 years and received a BA degree from

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there. I went on from there to National College. Uh, I went there for 4 years and, uh, from National College, I went to Central Missouri State. OK, what was your BA degree in? My BA degree at National College was in sociology. I see. OK, now you

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have received a master's since then from Central Missouri State. What did you obtain your master's in? My master's from Central Missouri State was in administration administration. OK, Mr. Dwight, during the time that you've been in the public. School system you've been an elementary school principal, secondary,

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an elementary teacher, uh, you also have participated in the core English social studies and also under special education which we have the mentally retarded uh recalling back to your earlier days as an elementary school teacher, how many years did you teach as a teacher? 10 years

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combining the elementary and the high school, uh, teaching Ella. Um, I started at the Booker T. Washington Elementary School as a 5th grade teacher. Then I moved from there after one year I moved from there to Lincoln High School. There I taught, uh, core English and

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special education, mentally retarded, uh, grades 9 through 11. Stayed there 6 years and then I moved back to the elementary field. Uh, there I went to Jaeger Elementary School. I taught the 7th grade at Jaeger. For one year and then from there I went as vice

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principal to the Sanford B. Ladd Elementary School for 4 years. During this time, um, I'm quite sure of all the different grade levels that you've taught is and covering also not only regular classrooms or what we speak of as normal also, um, mentally mentally retarded classrooms.

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Uh, is there a great contrast that you have to somewhat get yourself in gear from coming to a normal from a normal classroom to the special education students? I did, Ella, uh, one thing in particular I had to do, I. considered being moved from the elementary

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field to the high school field as a promotion because I hadn't taught for just one year in the elementary field. I thought it was a promotion so I gladly moved to Lincoln High School when I was asked. Only to find that after I'd been there a

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year in the special education department that I had 13 hours of deficiencies that I had to make up in order to remain as a special education teacher. So it sure was a contrast and and an expense also because this is what it. Pick to be a

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special education teacher, well, did they give you a certain uh length of time, uh, were you told, uh, like Mr. Dwight, in order to stay in this particular classroom you'll be given, uh, a year to complete a certain number of hours? Was there an option you

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may go back to the classroom, then come back? No, Ella, um. When I moved from the elementary, as I said, I thought it was a promotion. They did not tell me anything. They said they needed men in the high school area. And so I went and

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after a year of teaching, then they sent me a letter from the personnel department stating that I had 13 subjects in special education that I would have to take. And there wasn't any option of returning back to the elementary school. It was that I had to

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go to night school and get those subjects in order to maintain the job. The high school. OK, Mr. Dwight, you are an active member of the Optimist Club in Kansas City, Kansas. Can you, um. Tell me or discuss uh for me the different functions of the

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Optimist Club and how they not represent the black children but how they aid black children, how they give them different opportunities or maybe scholarships that they have available for them. Well, yes, Ella, uh, I'm a charter member of the, uh, Northeast, uh, Optimist Club and um.

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I'm very proud of that, uh, club. It has, it is doing fine things for the children in the community. Uh, we offer scholarships to the boys and girls, uh, who maintain, um, good grade averages in the, uh, in the school. We help out in the community

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all year long, not just at Christmas time or at times when, um, we find parents who have been in are in distress and have been burned out of their homes and things like this, and we promote programs where we involve our children, uh, that they can

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participate in essays and things like this and it's, um, it's a very fine, uh, Club and I'm sure that the community has benefited. OK, uh, also, uh, with the city of Kansas City, Kansas, you've worked as supervisor in the Neighborhood Youth Corps also counselor as well

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as coordinator. What are the functions of the Neighborhood Youth Corps? Each year, Ella, in the summertime. We employ. Through the manpower program. Uh, funds that are given to the, uh, that's given to the city of Kansas City, Kansas, and we give those funds to the Board

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of Education in Kansas City, Kansas, and we employ over 600, uh, children, high school children, so that they can have summer jobs through the summer. Uh, just last summer. I was the coordinator for the um. Kansas City, Kansas, um. Um, summer program where we employed 50

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boys under my, uh, Guidance to cut grass for uh the elderly people. People who cannot maintain their yards because of sickness or heart attacks and things like this. And we went all over the city from the east to the west, from the south to the north,

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cutting grass, vacant lots and Cutting some residential places, as I said, for the old. And, uh, this is, this was just with the 50 boys that I had, but there were, as I said, over 600, uh, junior high school and high school children. They're employed in

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all kinds of areas. Some work in the banks, some work in the, uh, business areas throughout Kansas City, Kansas. Some work in the churches. Uh, it's just a summertime job that We're very proud of it. OK, Mr. Dwight, you know, uh, you told me after. Uh,

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primarily when you came back out of the service, uh, you were somewhat involved in the, the police, in the police department. Could you explain that in what capacity? What, what type of work was it? Ella, after, uh, my discharge from the military services, I went back

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home and I was employed as a deputy sheriff in the Wyandotte County, uh, uh. Courthouse. My job there was a jailer. And uh primarily it was my job to lock people up that was brought in for different charges. What was the ratio within the jail? Was

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there more blacks? Definitely as opposed to whites, definitely so, uh, Ella, and at that time, as it is now somewhat, uh, the blacks were maintained in one section of the jail and the whites were maintained in another. And they would get together. What about the facilities

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there within the jail? The facilities at that time, uh, Ella, uh, were not too, not too good, and, uh, I know you have possibly read the article where just this year that the jail has been evaluated and they have found it to be in the not

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the proper condition to house the many. people that they have in jail. OK, Mr. Dwight, also we know that you have worked um As an associate funeral director at both Watkin Watkins Brothers Mortuary and presently I believe at Thatcher's mortuary. Did you have any specific type

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of training for this? Yes, on the job, on the job training, Ella, uh, I have worked as a, um, apprentice. There at both Watkins and Thatcher's and I have um. Um All of my experience in that field of work as working as an apprentice, uh, I

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haven't yet decided to take up my license yet, but I think that'll be coming in the near future. OK, I meant to ask you this also when you first entered into the teaching profession, uh, was one of your ambitions or maybe lifelong goals to be an

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elementary? Principal or administrator in the school system or is this something that you be after you got in the school system that you felt would be a very good pos position as far as uh economics are concerned as far as leadership what exactly made you become

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an elementary school principal? My 6 years at Grant school. Under the principalship of Mr. DW Lewis, who is still, uh, living, uh, I took him as my model. And as an image, and I wanted someday to be an elementary school or just to be a principal.

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So I kind of patterned myself with that idea and that was my goal. I see. Well, you're a very excellent administrator. I must say that at this time because I thank you just spoke with you and I've also worked with you so I can see you

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have, you are truly an asset to Kansas City Missouri public school system. Uh, going back to, uh, the era of what some people speak of as the era of Doctor Martin Luther King here in Kansas City, Missouri, we, we are aware that during the time of,

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uh, Doctor King's death and that it was such a tragic death, and we do, do know that the school system was in some ways affected by it at that time. Where were you teaching, if you can recall, and exactly. What, how did the children accept this?

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Were they very uh. Taken with it emotionally, were they more of a passive nature? How did the children accept that at that time, uh, our, our boys and girls did not know too much who Martin Luther King was, at least in the area where I was.

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We talked about him, but it wasn't, uh, uh, that our children were real familiar with who he was, uh, at the time that he was. Assassinated, uh, Kansas City, uh, like other cities, reacted, uh, uh, in some manners, uh, kind of violently. Uh, children, I can

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recall at that, in that, at that time, on that day, children walked, uh, one school dismissed, and many of them walked out of school. Uh, there was a lot of commotion in the halls and, uh, those who were familiar with, uh, this great, uh, leader, uh,

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demanded that school be, uh, out for the day. And, uh, you can imagine how us as some of the black teachers felt, um, and some of our white staff also felt that, uh, This was something that had happened and it was a great loss to our

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race of people and. During that time, uh, in the streets of Kansas City, Missouri and in Kansas City, Kansas, uh. Blacks reacted somewhat violently. I can remember that some windows were broken on Minnesota Avenue in the Kansas City, Kansas area, Kansas City, Missouri area. Did some

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of the same things. And, uh, it was, it was a pretty bad time at that time. OK. Mr. How early did you earn your living as to really support yourself fully? Ella, when I was in, in junior high school in the year of uh 19, uh,

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let me see, 1947, 1944 through 1947. I, I, I worked after school. I worked at uh the uh old municipal airport as a busboy there at the restaurant. I used to have to walk across the inner city viaduct after school in the evenings and uh I

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worked there until 10 o'clock at night. And then After I moved to Sumner High School, I worked at the packing house, Armor's packing house. We got out of school at 2:30 in the afternoons and, uh, I left Sumner High School and walked. To the East Bottoms

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from my home. And, uh, I worked in the packing house till 11 o'clock at night. My mother and dad would pick me up. And um so I started very early supporting myself. OK, um. Do you think as a as a as a black person. Different obstacles

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that you have had to encounter, do you feel that any of them were the primary problem was because you were black? Well, yes, um, Ella. Um, many times, uh, the old idea of having to, uh, always enter the back door. Of business establishments and especially of

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of homes that. I was employed in, sometimes I used to cut grass for, uh, white families and, uh, uh, if I want to drink water. He had to come to the back door. He always entered the back door. Down at the airport and we always left

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by that area. Uh, at that time, uh, I can, I can't remember, and I worked there for, oh, a number of years and I can never remember, although it was an airport, I can never remember seeing blocks eat. In the restaurant at that time. Now they

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could have, but, uh, likely and, uh, their service now, I didn't see any of that. And yes, it was, it was well in my mind that someday that, uh, I was going to overcome as well as many of my people would overcome this kind of treatment

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and these kind of actions. OK. Mr. Dwight, you know, ever since the early 40s, bussing has been an issue throughout the United States and right now, you know, it is one of the major concerns. During the past summer, the school board submitted a proposal to, and

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it was rejected by HEW. Do you feel there is any one plan that will ever be acceptable, uh, have you formulated within your own mind, uh, maybe a possible plan or what some of the things that we will have to do before we can really have

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a successful program of bussing. And uh some people now uh speak of bussing as just bussing to integrate the school systems, but bussing has been going on for a long time. What do you feel about the problem of bussing? How, what proposal or what plan do

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you feel would be a better way to approach the problem? You know, I As you have said, realize that. Bussing has been going on for years and, uh, especially in Kansas City, Kansas and Kansas City, Missouri. I can remember the times when I was in high

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school that the children were bussed from the Argentine and the Rosedale area and brought to Sumner High School. Of course, these were, these were black kids and uh nothing was said. Uh, it was just no choice. The the boys and girls in those areas could not

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go to the high schools or the schools in the area, and sometimes they lived right across the street from them. But now that since 54 and um The law has said that we must have equal opportunities and segregation must be struck down that, uh, you hear

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a lot about bussing and, uh, people, it has been brought to the attention all over the nation about bussing, and I'm sure they've done this all over the nation, bussing. I don't have a plan, Ella, for, uh, integration, uh, without bussing. I just don't see how

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it can be done. Now, maybe it can, I don't know, but I I don't see it. Uh, the way we are set up in our residential areas, uh, our, our, our neighborhoods are predominantly here in Kansas City, Kansas and Missouri, they just in the past years

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have they started changing with mixed neighborhoods, but they have been predominantly black in black neighborhoods, white in white neighborhoods and How we're going to get these children integrated with them. A bussing plan is a mystery to me. Mr. Dwight, you know, so many people can influence

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a child's life. Usually I know during the time that I was growing up there was also different people to influence me. Uh, it may not be in the way of, uh, the way a person carries himself. It may just be something that a person would have

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to say. If there was a message that you could give the black youth of today, what would that message be? As I've heard so much, I would certainly, uh, repeat the words that I've heard. Keep the faith, baby. There is just no way that we're going

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to go backwards. We're gonna go forward. This thing is here, it's here to stay. Uh, I would say don't become unraveled, discouraged by the actions of, uh, our officials that we see starting from Washington DC all the way down because, uh, the times are here. This

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is a new day, and I say to you set a goal. And do everything in your power to reach that goal. Let nothing stop you. OK, Mr. Dwight, I would certainly like to thank you for this interview. Uh, this interview was taped at Gladstone Elementary School.

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I would also like to list a few of the other organizations that Mr. Dwight is affiliated with. The National Education Association, the American Federation of Teachers, the Missouri State Teachers Council of Exceptional Children, the Kansas City, Kansas Mayor's Advisory Council, the Mount Etna Lodge, the Corin

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Temple Shrine number 33. The board of deacons at Pleasant Green Baptist Church. He is the Sunday, uh, superintendent of Sunday school in Kansas City, Kansas, the civil service board commission commissioner, and also, and also he is the treasurer of the Kansas City Association of Elementary School

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Principals.