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This is Mbimbe Milton Smith interviewing Chi Chi Williams for the Black Archives of Mid-America. The date is February 29, 1976. Uh, Chi Chi, uh, maybe we could just start out by you giving me a little information about your childhood. For instance, when and where were you

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born? I was born here in Kansas City, Missouri, December 31, 1920. OK, so that makes you how old? 27. 27. I'm interested in any kind of uh. Things, you know, about your early childhood which has somehow brought you to the point where you are now. Are

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there any significant things, uh, you know, where did you live or? My earliest memories, I understand that I, my folks lived in Missouri, then moved to Edwardsville, Kansas, then they moved to Bonner Springs. East I'm really, I don't remember Bonner Springs. I don't remember how old

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were you when you lived there? I don't know. I must have been a baby. Mhm. Um, when we lived in Edwardsville, my, A home which my father built himself. From the foundation, he built it all by himself, he and my mother. Uh how does he, how

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did he do that? Was he, uh, I mean, you know, how do, how do you build a house? I have no idea, but he's very talented. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So, he and my mother had a problem, And they tell me that they used to, I don't even

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know what they used to raise or how many acres. I don't remember it at all. The only thing I remember was when we lived in Kansas City, Kansas. I can't remember since I was about maybe three. OK. But um, my folks have always been in some

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kind of business are they still in business or are they still alive? They're still alive. What kind of business are they? They're in the printing business. Oh yeah, That's some prospect right? But when we lived in Kansas City, Kansas, when I was young, they had a

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cleaning shop and I remember it because I've got a scar, Instruments. I've got a scar on my left hand and that's not, Uh-huh. Uh-huh, you know, you're right. Yeah, that's fine. But What kind of business were they in? Yeah, very small child. OK, let me see.

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I've they've been in so many different places. Has it been, you know, has business for them been, you know, lucrative at all in this area, or is, is, you know? Well, it's beginning to be lucrative now. Uh-huh. It, it was always kind of scraping. I'm interested

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uh also in. You know what kind of things affected you in childhood that are. Some kind of way with you today. Um Any, any experiences you know like. Like, uh, for instance. You know blacks have to become aware of being black at some point in their

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life and that, you know, having some kind of special meaning, you know, and sociologists say that happens, you know, very early. Um, can you remember, you know, anything of that nature, you know, when you, uh, Got an idea about what it meant to be black in

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this. In this country. Um, To. I lived a very sheltered childhood. I went to, I always went to black schools. What schools did you go to? I started school in Kansas City, Kansas at Douglas Elementary School. I went there up until the 2nd. No, the 1st

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grade, and then I started the 2nd grade in Kansas City, Missouri at Jaeger, and from there I went to Sanford B Ladd 5th grade, then Central Junior and Central Senior High School. So they were all black schools and I really wasn't around white people that much.

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I'm trying to think if there was any kind of. Experience that made me realize I was black and that there was prejudice and I really. Uh, oh, I know, probably. The first time that I realized there was a difference, I was just a kid. I was

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going to Jaeger and I can't remember what grade I was in, but I missed it. It had to be either 2nd, 3rd or 4th grade, and we had safety patrol people and there were whites at the school now that I remember it, and I remember shopping

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one day with my folks and my father and probably my mother too and my sisters and brothers. And one of the safety patrol, Um, people who was white, we saw him at the grocery store, so I said to my father, I said, I think he's cute

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and he got so mad at me and that's what I guess that's when I realized that there was a difference. You really got ticked off. Let me see. Let me ask you about teachers in grade school. You know, you went to most to mostly black schools

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all your life. Were there blacks in professional positions at those schools, you know, as teachers or principals, administrators? Right, there were. I think that um as a child I wanted to be a teacher because those were the blacks that I was aware of, those were the

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ones that I saw and I wanted to be a teacher up until the time I was in junior high school. So that was a kind of, you know, the fact that you had black teachers was a kind of identification and model and all of that. Um,

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Are there any particular people, you know, any particular names of teachers or administrators, principals, etc. Uh, who somehow affected you? Who were some of the teachers that you had? Well, I can remember, um, Mrs. Jones, she's still teaching in the public school system. I can't, her,

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she's remarried and I don't know her name now, but, um, I can remember her because one time. I can't even remember why. One time she called my sister and who was a year older than me and told my sister to tell my parents that I had

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done something and it's very vague in my memory, but I remember her because she told me. Mhm for teachers who Um, I can remember my fifth grade teacher, Juanita Yancey. I don't know if she's still in the, in the system or not, but this was at

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VA. And she was a very good teacher. He pretty much. Well, let me ask you, they say that, you know, we aren't getting a very good education when there's blacks in the public school system. Do you think that's true? Um I think when I was in

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the public school system I graduated from Central in 1966. I think a good education was available and I think I got it. I don't know what this obviously something's missing, something's lacking in the schools now 10 years later, but I don't agree that an integrated education

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is necessary for people. I believe you can teach a child. to read and write. All of our black, uh, professional people, people who are successful today, the majority of them got their training and their learning in black institutions and I think it's completely possible for us

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never to go to school with a white person and be just as successful as anybody. There's a lot of talk these days about trying to maintain black institutions, you know I think that's extremely important. When I was in high school, one thing that I really lacked,

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I never took a black history class until my senior year in college and there were so many things about blacks that I didn't know, that was my favorite course in college. I read all these books. Because I did more reading outside of class than anybody in

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that class and I knew more than the teacher did and he said I did. He said I should've been teaching the class because I was interested in that and I think that, uh, I don't like, I don't know what the curriculum is like in the schools

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today, but I think it's so important for black kids to know. Uh, about the kinds of uh. People, black people throughout history who did so many things and they just left us out of the textbooks. So when I was in school, we didn't know about anything

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but George Washington Carver's peanuts. That's we learned about that. That was it. That was just so unfair. Well, let's go back a minute. Well, maybe we can deal with that. You see, it's unfair. How has it affected you? How has not knowing about Black history affected

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me. Right. It just makes me mad today. Right. That's the only effect it has on me. It makes me mad it's some kind of, uh, You know, do you think it Affects blacks to the extent of being a kind of personal shortcoming for blacks who don't

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know about their own history. I think so. I think it's important for black kids growing up to know that people before them did important things so that they can have role models to pattern themselves after. OK. Let's, let's go back a minute. Um, Your family. What's

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your father's name? My father's name is Narville Williams Senior. My mother's name is Kathleen, Kathleen Williams. And I have 7 brothers and sisters. So there are 8 kids in your family. How many brothers? Um, 5 brothers. Oh, is it? 5 brothers and 1 sister, 1 older

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sister. I had a little sister who died of cerebral palsy. I see. About 6 years ago. Well, your father's in the printing business. Is your mother in the printing business with him? Everything they do, they do. They've always been in business together. Mhm. Well does she

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actually go in and set type and all of that? Um and they work together. They go to work together in the morning and leave together in the afternoon. Yeah. She takes the orders and handles the bookkeeping and stuff like that and then she does the setting

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up, you know, type, setting up the printing and stuff like that. And daddy handles the actual mechanics of the printing. Mhm Um, do you want to talk a little bit about your brothers and sisters? You're, you're what, you know, out of the 2. She's an airline

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hostess who, um, lives in New York with her husband. Yeah. What's her name? Gwen Williams, Gwendolyn Williams. She graduated from Central the year before I did. 65. I see. And went to Lincoln University for a couple of years before becoming an airline hostess. Uh-huh. And then

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I have a brother, Narva Williams Junior and kindly Sonny. Um-hum. He's a printer also. Um-hum. He lives in Chicago. I see. And works for a print shop there. Did he learn the trade from your father? Um-hum. Sure did. Definitely. Then I have another brother, Chucky, or

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Charles. Uh-huh. So yeah, he's 21. He just got out of the Navy and he works in the print shop now. So he can print too. So. Yeah, then I have another brother, Davy, who's 19, and he's going to Penn Valley Community College right now and he's

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an excellent photographer. Uh-huh very good photographer. He does some freelance, uh, work for the call. He works full time, goes to school part time, carrying, I think, 9 or 12 hours and making A's and B's. Um-hum. And he works like you wouldn't believe he did that

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picture for me for Christmas. That's interesting. Yeah, uh, most of the time when I go to cover it's really interesting. I'll be covering the president for, uh, I'll be at a basketball game doing a story, and Davy's there, you know, shooting the film for us and

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he's been, uh, I guess he got his first camera when he was in junior high school. Um-hum. And since that time he's just, he does, uh, the camera work for the print shop too. He does a lot of that. He and he and my father do

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that. Um-hum. Yeah. So, he's very talented. Then I have, um, Two younger brothers. One is. In the 8th grade at Southeast Junior High School. That's Chris. And then Brian is. Marian is in the 4th grade and he's in the Talented, academically talented program. Um-hum. Kansas City

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school district. And he's very bright. It seems like you have a very talented family. Well, we try hard. Yeah, that's one thing that I think a lot of parents I think if, if children are successful, if they learn how to do things, it's as a result

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of their parents and the kind of emphasis their parents put on learning. And that's what it goes back to you saying, do I think that black kids can learn in black schools? I think they can, especially if they're motivated by their parents. See, all the time

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I was going to school, my folks said, Well, where's your homework? Do your homework. And then I can remember I didn't know how to tell time when I was real little and Daddy sat my brother and I down. He made us learn how to tell time.

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You can tell time today, and you know, he would quiz us, we'd be reading and stuff, but he showed both my parents showed an interest and it was important to them that we do well. And I think that's, that's the key for whether children, whether they're

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black or white, whether they learn and whether they do well. The key is whether their parents motivate them. There's something else that I wanted to ask you about, you know, a lot of. Kids, you know, we see age. Uh, majority 21. And um they find out

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that that they can't do anything, you know. Um. Yeah. Education hasn't really been, you know, isn't really functional, uh. You know, so it's important it seems to me to develop some kind of talents with kids, you know. And I'm interested in, you know, for instance, whether

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you took music lessons or went to dance school and did all of those kinds of things. Um, my sister and I took dancing lessons and I'm really disgusted with my parents. My mother didn't think we were doing very well so we only took the lessons for

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just a short while and that's the regret I have. I would have liked to have danced. I enjoyed the dancing, but she took us out of dancing school because she didn't think we could dance. I can remember recital she came in she wasn't very pleased with

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it. Yeah, OK. OK, you, uh, went to dance dancing, right, yes, and that didn't work out. Then I took music lessons, um, my sister and I piano lessons, and I ran into one of my piano teachers. I was at Central High School last week. Her name

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was Mrs. Cushion from Kansas City, Kansas. Then when we moved to Missouri, I had this other piano teacher and she was really mean. Um-hum. So I stopped taking those lessons because I like her too much, but I always liked to play the piano, but I didn't

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like to practice. Uh-huh. And so, that's the trouble with most of us. Yeah, I wish I could play now. I used to play in in Sunday school. Um-hum. And the only song I could play was What a Friend We Have in Jesus, and then when people

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would sing, I'd get messed up. Um. I really wasn't very good. Very good at the piano. Then I had another teacher, I think her name was Moses um. I can't remember her name, but that was the last one I had when I was in junior high

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school. How about other things uh. You know, were you involved in some kind of recreational things like swimming or, you know, uh, you know, going, going on, going on through school, you know, what kind of activities I was athletic. I was anemic when I was a

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kid. Uh-huh. And so, when, in the summertime, when my brothers and sister would go, sisters would go, my sister and brothers would go swimming, I'd have to stay home. Um-hum. And they wouldn't let me go cause I was always kind of sickly. But when I got

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in high school, you know, when I was in junior high school, I decided I wanted to be a cheerleader. That was so important to me. I couldn't do anything. I couldn't do the splits or the flips or anything. Um. But I practiced. I was so dedicated.

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I practiced so hard. And when I got in high school, I never made it. Uh-huh. And that was a great disappointment to me. Story of that. The story of our life. But I fixed it up when I got to college, I was a cheerleader. Um-hum. Well,

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let's go back and deal with high school just a little bit. You graduated from Central High School, Kansas City, Missouri in 1966. OK. Who was there then, was, uh, Who's the principal at Central? Mr. Boyd. OK, that's, uh, James. James Boyd, James F. Boy, right? Right.

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He's now at the Board of Education and he is, uh, one of the second secondary directors, and he is over, Central is one of the schools that he's over. Well, you know, and, and. You know that sometime around that time Robert Wheeler was at Central. Doctor

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Griffin was the vice principals. He couldn't make it as a cheerleader. '66, wasn't that the year that that Central won the basketball championship? Mhm. Yeah, I was there. So you're talking about, I guess the McMurray brothers were the were the backbone of the team, weren't they?

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Um, You know, I really don't know. I remember Steve Kelow was on the team. Steve Kelo, right. One of the McMurray's was on the team. Well, maybe both of them, two of them were. Um-hum. I can't remember who the team was, but anyhow, we had a,

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they had a real good basketball team. Oh, very good. I ran into Coach Wilkerson last night. I was at Nancy Wilson's concert. OK, Coach Wilkerson is the basketball coach at Central. Right, Coach Jim Wilkerson. Right. And he is, he was the basketball coach then. He's now

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with the NCAA. And he said he's trying to get the 1966 team together again. Uh-huh. Which will only be exciting, I think. So, you're watching, uh, Watching all of these people who are somehow influential in the community, you know, uh, growing up and they're providing models

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for you, um. Let's take a jump and go to uh. College, OK. You went to college where? Presbyterian 1200 people. But there are a considerable amount of black students there were very few blacks. I think there were maybe 20 of 1,2002. What kind of experience was

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that for you? You know, you're going to, uh, you've been to all black schools so far and then you go off to a to a white college and a Presbyterian college at that which is uh-huh uh-huh. Um, I had a good time in college. I enjoyed

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myself. As soon as I got there, I had, well, I've always been activity oriented. When I was in high school, I was always in the, uh, student council and things. I see, I see. Um, and so, I had decided that I was going to participate just

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like I had before. So, as soon as I got there, I tried out the cheerleader and made it. Uh-huh. Um-hum. So, I was cheering. Story about life has a twist. And I was just active in a lot of things. Mhm I had a good time, for

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instance, cheerleading Young Democrats. the students Senate. Toward my senior year, I was on the court. What kind of uh what kind of organization is the Young Democrats? It wasn't a very anything organizational when I was there. We didn't do anything. But one thing that we did,

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I got them to bring Julian Bond on campus to speak to us and that was the most significant thing. Did you meet Julian Bond and talk to him personally and all that? Um-hum. That might be interesting. It wasn't an active group. We didn't do anything. What

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does he think about you getting? I liked him. I'd always liked him. That's why I insisted on bringing him to campus. Yeah. Um. So what's, you know, what about him do you like? I mean, I, I thought he was a dynamic young black person. An activist.

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Um-hum. You know, I like the, the kinds of things that he represented. I believe Was it '68 when he was nominated for the vice presidency? Yeah, it must have been the '68 convention in Chicago. Yeah, I suppose so. I suppose so. Which is, which is strange

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because he wasn't old enough. Right. Right. But he was a national figure at the time. He was good looking. Yes, and still is. Mhm. I always like to that's that's true. Of course we haven't had any. We do have a few good looking politicians there. Yeah.

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Mm. Emporia. What else can you tell me about Emporia? Well, it was a little town. There was another campus there. Um, the Emporia State Teachers College. I don't think it's a teacher's college anymore, but that had a larger population of blacks, about 200. I think that's

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important that we distinguish between the College of Emporia and Emporia State Teachers College because I think that's what I was thinking about when I asked you whether there are a number of blacks there. Yeah, Emporia State is a state institution and it has several 1000 people

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and CFV was a small private Presbyterian college which has since gone bankrupt. It went bankrupt about 2 years ago, so. It's no longer open. So, now you've got a degree from a defunct college. That's right. But I do have that degree. That's the important thing. I

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don't think it matters where you got it from or even if it's still standing just so you have it. OK. It's career wise. So what else about Emporia, College of Emporia? You're going to dispute with all of, you know, with 1200 whites. Um, How did that

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affect you? I mean, you know, did you find it very competitive, you know, as compared to high school or something? No, I learned more in high school than I did in college. See, this was a liberal arts college and it wasn't very high up in the

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academic standards. I had a good time when I was there, I studied very little. I just messed around, had a good time. And the funny thing about the school was that you would think in Kansas there wouldn't be that many liberal people. Um. But the largest

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percentage of the student body came people from the east. Um. And so most of the black people that were there were friendly with the white people from the east coast. And there was not overt prejudice. I didn't run into any overt prejudice until my Junior year

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when I ran for president of the student senate, everybody thought it was OK when initially I was gonna run for vice president. They thought I was gonna be a shoo-in. But when I decided I wanted to run for president, um, they didn't elect me president. And

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I don't know if it was because I was a woman or because I was black, but, um, But there wasn't a better man. No. Not at all, not at all. I was also on the debate team too. How about you. What did you do on the

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debate team? Did you do any traveling? I was on the debate team my freshman year and we went to, MU and K State. And I was a good debater. I always enjoyed debating. I liked that. Um-hum. But I quit because it was, I had too many

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other things to do. I was, my social life. OK, did you, do you find debating, uh, a kind of prerequisite for what you're doing now with your show on television, dimensions in Black? Uh, with the reporting that you've done for KC KNBC. KNBC. OK. That's Channel

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9. OK. Not necessarily, no. I just, uh, I've always enjoyed like a good honest argument. Uh-huh. I like the give and take, the going back and forth. Uh-huh. And, uh, no, I, I rarely argue or debate people that I'm, Interviews with and more concerned with what

00:26:19.040 - 00:26:32.239

they're, what they, it is they have to say. Yeah. And when I talk to people, it's usually to draw out something. Um-hum. From them rather than trying to challenge them because my opinion is not that important in the work that I do. It's the other person's

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opinion that's important. I see. I see. OK. You've uh got a television show on now, you know. You've gone to black high schools, gone to Emporia, College of Emporia, and you came out of The College of Emporia, did you come back to Kansas City immediately and

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start the, you know, the mentions in black thing? No, when I was in junior high school, I decided I wanted to be a lawyer, and that was always my intention. That's why I was always running for this office and that office because in the back of

00:27:05.420 - 00:27:22.420

my mind I wanted to be a politician, but As a result, I think it was mostly that campaign for president of the Student Senate. Um, I'm too sensitive to be a politician. Why do you say that? Because my feelings are very easily hurt when I get

00:27:22.420 - 00:27:34.339

when I'm rejected, I get hurt. So I said no way I'm gonna be a politician and I kind of soured on the idea of being a lawyer because that was when I was in high school, I was very active in Tri High Y and we used

00:27:34.339 - 00:27:50.170

to do student government things in Jefferson City and I really enjoyed that. That was a lot of fun, but we were just planning, you know, serious business people get very, that's right, and I'm just not. I'm not that kind of person who can take insults. Um-hum.

00:27:50.290 - 00:28:02.290

That easily. So, I just said, no, no. Um-hum. So, anyway, I was still kind of going to go to law school and then not really wanting to. Um-hum. So, when I got out of school, I said, well, I'll work for a while and then I'll go

00:28:02.290 - 00:28:18.130

to law school. But I couldn't find a job. When I graduated cause I was, I've been a pre-law major, which history and political science and public speaking which qualifies you to do exactly nothing. And I had, my father said, at least, would you get the teaching

00:28:18.130 - 00:28:31.109

certificate for me just in case. So I said, OK, and I took all the classes for the certificate, but I didn't want to practice teach so I never really completed it because I knew I did not want to be a teacher. So, when I got out

00:28:31.109 - 00:28:45.160

of school, I really didn't, I looked for a job and I couldn't find one because I had kind of planned to go into law school. And what happened was I decided to become an airline hostess for lack of anything better to do. Um-hum. And I was

00:28:45.160 - 00:28:59.439

out of work, well, I graduated in May and in July after not finding any kind of job. Um-hum. Except for some clerical work that wouldn't pay what I thought I was worth. Um-hum. So I was going to be an airline hostess. But one of the places

00:28:59.439 - 00:29:17.810

I looked for a job was Channel 9. Um-hum. And after I, I was supposed to start training at the TWA breach Academy. Uh-huh. Uh, it was August 24th on a Tuesday, August 25th. OK. And, uh, Claude Dorsey called me the Friday before that Tuesda. Now, who

00:29:17.810 - 00:29:34.849

is Claude Darcy? He's the news director at Channel 9. OK. And I had gone looking for a job there in May, but he called and, Offered me a job as a production assistant and as an assistant to the action reporters who is Jim Richardson and after

00:29:34.849 - 00:29:50.209

a long weekend of deciding whether I wanted to see the world. I work in, um, the basement at KNBC, which is exactly what it was. It was the lowest job in the whole newsroom. Um-hum. And I just decided for some reason, I said, OK, I'll take

00:29:50.209 - 00:30:03.689

a chance and I'll go ahead and work here for a while. In I'm glad I did, cause I have my career plan. Uh, you know, I have my goals and ambitions now. I've got them mapped out and I kind of know what I want to do,

00:30:04.089 - 00:30:25.010

what direction I want to take. OK, um. What are your goals and ambitions? You worked for Channel 9 and you were so fed up 9 months and I was so fed up with being everybody's flunky. But I had just made up my mind and said by

00:30:25.010 - 00:30:40.250

summer, by June, if I'm not doing something more constructive than reading Tim Richardson's mail. And then I'm leaving here. I mean, I was just going to take off and do anything. I didn't care what, I was going to probably move to New York with my sister

00:30:40.250 - 00:30:54.719

or something. Um-hum. But during the summer that I was unemployed, I used to read the newspaper front to back. I didn't miss anything. Um-hum. And there was this real tiny little thing under the career section. Um-hum. And it said wanted more black newsmen, and there was

00:30:54.719 - 00:31:11.525

this little booklet you could send off for. Um. So I sent off for it and it talked about all the different training programs for minorities and the best one was at Columbia University in New York and it was called the the summer program for um broadcast

00:31:11.525 - 00:31:31.579

journalism. And the goal of the program was to train minorities on how to become broadcast journalists and also how to become journalists because they had a print division and broadcast division. And Um, about that fall, I started writing to them trying to get applications and they

00:31:31.579 - 00:31:44.500

weren't sure if the program was going to be refunded and all that. Um-hum. But finally by the spring, they did find out it was going to be refunded. Um-hum. So, I sent in my application. They sent it back and we had to do, um, do some

00:31:44.500 - 00:32:00.540

writing, like writing an autobiography and then critique a news show that we watched regularly. Um-hum. After that they eliminated it and got down I think about 100 finalists or something and this is from applicants from all over the country then they did personal interviews and selected

00:32:00.540 - 00:32:20.410

30 people. And I was one of the ones selected and went to Columbia in the summer of '71 for 10 weeks, 6 days a week, 12 hours a day, sometimes longer, and it was just an intensive course on writing and um film and things that you

00:32:20.410 - 00:32:36.239

need to know in order to become a journalist and I'm so sorry that program. No longer operates because it was just excellent. I think it's the best possible training anybody could have because you're right in New York, which is the new center of the world. And

00:32:36.239 - 00:32:53.729

we were working right alongside when uh John Lindsay announced his switch from the Republican to the Democratic Party. We had a news crew there to cover it. I covered a story when, um, McGovern was campaigning, George McGovern, so we were right there with the big time

00:32:53.729 - 00:33:07.729

network people, even though what we did was only for our class to look at, it wasn't really what everybody else did. And I remember I was so impressed. I wanted to to talk to Gloria Steinem and do an interview with her. So I called and I

00:33:07.729 - 00:33:26.060

said, I'm Chi Chi Williams from Columbia News, and she returned the call. I was so impressed. Now, who is Gloria Stein? I mean this is the Women's liberation. Right. What do you. I was, I was, uh, doing a story, um, On a women's liberation march in

00:33:26.060 - 00:33:48.400

August, that's why I wanted to get in touch. What do you think about women's liberation? I think it's a good thing. I think sometimes though, some people get carried away with it and just get downright ridiculous. Um, obviously I believe in equal pay for equal work,

00:33:48.859 - 00:34:05.469

and I think in a, um, in a lot of instances women are discriminated against, not just in, in the amount of money they get paid, but just in the whole attitude that people have about. Weaker sex. So you're talking about not just, not just jobs, not

00:34:05.469 - 00:34:20.530

just employment opportunities, but other things. Um, just socially. OK. That. Like last night, a friend of mine, just a friend of mine, we went to see Nancy Wilson, and then I took him out to dinner afterwards because he had bought the tickets for Nancy Wilson, and

00:34:20.530 - 00:34:34.320

I think it's perfectly all right. I mean, we both work, we both make money, so why shouldn't I pay to go out with him sometimes just like he pays to go out with me. I think that's perfectly acceptable, but You'll never hear me say I mean

00:34:34.320 - 00:34:49.520

I need a man I know I, I like men and I like the idea of marriage. I'm not married but I like the idea of it. I like the idea of motherhood. I want all those things and I would never put it down and never say

00:34:50.000 - 00:35:16.100

that, um. Being a housewife and being a mother is not an excellent career choice for somebody. But uh I wouldn't call myself a dyed in the wool feminist, but satisfied. I see. Well, I don't know. I can't say whether I would or not. I really don't

00:35:16.100 - 00:35:32.790

know because I've never um I, I think about that. I don't, I think I would have to have my own career because I, I'm, well, I'm 27 and I take care of myself. I have my own money. I'm used to being independent and doing what I

00:35:32.790 - 00:35:50.010

wanna do and I'm not sure I wanna lose that independence. So if I do get married and, um, when I do have children, I plan to work some kind of way, doing something to, uh, to maintain my independence, which is important to me. But, you know,

00:35:50.129 - 00:36:09.719

I get kind of, uh, turned off by some. Radical feminist. Uh-huh. who try to speak for all of us. No, I don't think so. No, Gloria Steinem is not, um, the kind of radical feminists that some some of these women are, I don't think. What about

00:36:09.719 - 00:36:26.199

black women feminists, are there any that you admire? Um, I'm not sure that I know any. OK. There's a group of black feminists here in Kansas City. Yeah. And I interviewed them and had them on my show, and some of the things that they talk about

00:36:26.199 - 00:36:38.919

are very valid. You know, a lot of complaints during the height of the civil rights struggle, a lot of complaints black women had was, That the black men and would push them in the background like they didn't have anything to say. You see, it would turn

00:36:38.919 - 00:36:57.120

me off for a man to think that I was not his equal. I don't walk behind anybody, you know, I'm right beside you, fifty-fifty, you know, right, you know, right beside you, but um. I, I don't believe in superiority of men. Mhm. or anything like that.

00:36:57.949 - 00:37:15.149

But I don't think I know any of them. I. OK. They exist. I know that. OK, uh, I wanna make sure that we, you know, understand, you know, that it's understood by whoever listens to this tape that you're doing this show on Dimensions in Black, the

00:37:15.149 - 00:37:39.169

show called Dimensions in Black, and that's on what channel? That's 9 o'clock. OK. And so when you refer to, uh, you know, people who've come across your show, what we're talking about is dimensions in black. Channel 9. Channel 99 o'clock Sunday morning. Um-hum. OK. Um Let's

00:37:39.169 - 00:37:53.709

talk about mention in black a little bit how you, how you got into that. That was just part of my job I worked when I I agreed to come back to work. So, when I left and went to Columbia. When I left Channel 9, things weren't

00:37:53.709 - 00:38:10.340

moving quickly enough for me at 9. So, Channel 5 sponsored my, um, Uh, I had to have a sponsor to go to Columbia. Um-hum. And the sponsoring place would be where I would work. Um-hum. And Channel 5 sponsored me there and paid me a salary while

00:38:10.340 - 00:38:23.649

I was going to school. Um-hum. I went, when I came back to Kansas City, then I went to work at Channel 5 as a news writer. Uh-huh. When I came back to Channel 91 of my responsibilities would be to host Dimensions in Black. I see. So,

00:38:23.659 - 00:38:43.399

that's how, why I'm doing the show. OK, well, what's the nature of that show, right? What kind of people do you interview and And. By which you mean what? Well, that means that the Federal Communications Commission says that every station that wants to have its license

00:38:43.399 - 00:39:03.060

renewed when license renewal time comes up has to program a certain number of hours to minorities. OK. This is KNBC's minority contribution. I see. Which is pretty poor, I would say. Uh-huh, you're talking about in terms of what their total commitment to minority vote. That's right,

00:39:03.120 - 00:39:17.580

yeah. Yeah. And the fact that the show comes on at 9 o'clock Sunday mornings. It's not on in prime time which would be from 6:30, what, 6:30 to, uh, to 10 o'clock. 7:00 to 10:00 is prime time. OK. We should have a black show on then.

00:39:18.219 - 00:39:39.300

Um. But we won't have one until, uh, um, people in the community insist on it. Is there any real You know, kind of movement in the community to affect the communications media. Oh, I don't, I'm not aware of anything. I know the NAACP monitors. Um-hum. Um,

00:39:39.580 - 00:39:58.010

all the, the stations. What do you mean when you say monitor? I mean what, what exactly do you mean? Um, Sometimes they'll complain about a lack of something at the station and the station is aware that the NAACP exists because it's a vocal organization and the

00:39:58.010 - 00:40:20.419

NAACP knows that come license renewal time if, uh, they challenge the license of the station for not having. the proper amount of minority broadcasting, and they know they can do that. And so the station knows that the NAACP knows. Channel 9 have the proper amount of

00:40:20.419 - 00:40:39.070

minority broadcasting? Technically. Yes. They're doing what they're supposed to do. But, um, and as long as they can get away with it, you know, they're going to do fine. They're doing all right. You know, there's no real commitment. Because number one, say a show like dimensions,

00:40:39.610 - 00:40:53.750

they slot it as public service to say look what we're doing for you. Rather than trying to sell the show to advertisers like they sell all the other shows and put them on at a decent hour, well, they don't go to any trouble. They don't go

00:40:53.750 - 00:41:16.419

to any effort for that. So. Well, you sound like you're a little bit dissatisfied. With the Channel? No, it's not, I'm not dissatisfied with mine. I like working there, you know, I'm doing fine. It's just that And I don't insist on trying to make changes with

00:41:16.419 - 00:41:30.780

dimensions in that because as the show exists right now, I'm doing the best I can. Um-hum. See, I'm a full time reporter 5 days a week. Um-hum. Dimensions is extra. Um. And I can squeeze it in. Now, if I got real nasty and said, look, I

00:41:30.780 - 00:41:43.745

think you ought to put this on, At Night. Right. Then you'd have a bigger audience. But the quality of the show wouldn't change because I don't have time to do it right. I see. So, I kind of don't say anything because I know that I would

00:41:43.745 - 00:41:58.060

want the product to be better. Um-hum. If it were going to be on at a time when more people would see it. Right now, I think Dementia is a good show. I think it's informative, and that's the purpose of it. As a public affairs show, and

00:41:58.060 - 00:42:16.310

it's supposed to do public service. Um-hum. To, um, give the community information about things that they may not know about, to let them, um, Oh see black people who are doing things. I think that's good for kids. I go to schools and talk to to young

00:42:16.310 - 00:42:33.020

kids quite a lot, and they watch the show, and I think it's good for them to see black people who are doing things. I have national figures, well known people nationally, as well as local people on the show. It serves its purpose. I mean, it, it

00:42:33.020 - 00:42:46.620

does, but it could be so much better. Uh-huh. If it had a staff. You don't have a staff at all. I'm the staff. You're the chief. The whole thing. Uh-huh. But see, for a half hour show, most people have, well, like Channel 5, they've got 4

00:42:46.620 - 00:43:03.570

people working on their show. Um-hum. Um, then in Atlanta, I was in Atlanta and they have a black show and they've got a staff of 6 people to do their show. OK, I'm looking around your house, you know, and it's very nicely furnished, very neat and

00:43:03.570 - 00:43:18.800

everything, and you're saying that you're an independent woman. I'm looking at your wall and, you know, the art, and I'm seeing this picture, which you mentioned before was done by somebody at the Kansas State Penitentiary. Um. You want to talk about your experience with the, with

00:43:18.800 - 00:43:33.419

the Kansas State Penitentiary for a while? Yeah, about two years ago, the, uh, inmates there wrote me a letter. They have a black awareness program. Um-hum. And they asked me to come down. They wanted two things. First, they wanted publicity and then they wanted a sponsor.

00:43:33.550 - 00:43:50.104

Um-hum. So I agreed to go down there. And I went and I listened to them. They meet every Sunday and they seem to be very conscientious and interested in doing things. Their main purpose was to try to help themselves so that they wouldn't become repeaters, because

00:43:50.104 - 00:44:04.064

most people in prison have been there before. Most of these people have been in prison 2 and 3 times, and they found out when they got out on the outside they just weren't able to make it or they didn't want to, you know, it's both, uh.

00:44:05.020 - 00:44:25.570

So they wanted to help themselves so that they would uh develop both uh training skills and also mental, a mental attitude not to be criminals so I did um. A half hour documentary for Dimensions in Black. Which, to the station's credit, the station put it on

00:44:25.570 - 00:44:39.540

at night too. Um. So it was on in prime time. Um-hum. And I was proud of that. I, I, it was a film thing and that's, I, I enjoy working with film rather than doing studio interviews. Let's see, are you, can you shoot film and do

00:44:39.540 - 00:44:55.949

all of that? I can shoot silent film. I can't shoot film. The photographer was, was with me. He did the, the filming and the editing, and I did the writing and the research. Um-hum. But I did that and then I also, for about a year, I

00:44:55.949 - 00:45:11.850

used to go to the prison, like, Um, every other Sunday sometimes every Sunday, and just bring people down to talk, uh, different outside speakers to go down and talk to the prisoners. One of the people I took down was Muhammad Ali and then also some, some

00:45:11.850 - 00:45:33.219

local people. And after doing this for about a year, I'm no longer actively involved with the inmates. And the reason was that it seemed to me and from what um the picture was painted by Howard Carney who's the president of the Black Awareness Program and he

00:45:33.219 - 00:45:49.100

corresponds with me every now and then and he tells me I haven't been there for about a year but he tells me that they are. Changing. They are, uh, becoming more conscientious and doing things. But at the time I left, I felt like they were blaming

00:45:49.520 - 00:46:07.179

their imprisonment on being black. Uh-huh. Which is not true. Some of them were there cause they were criminals. Right. Right. And, I didn't like the way that they would make excuses for their social behavior. Um-hum. Where if they, and like when I first started going down

00:46:07.179 - 00:46:19.820

there, I asked them to, I told him I thought it would be a good idea if they all got their GEDs. Um-hum. Because the ones who didn't have them, because they don't do anything down there. The jobs they have are just farcees. They don't have, they

00:46:19.820 - 00:46:32.669

don't have any training skills. Maybe license plates or something. That are working in the kitchen. Some of them don't even work, so they've got, 6 hours of nothing to do. Um-hum. You know, they might, their job might take them 2 or 3 hours. Um-hum. And some

00:46:32.669 - 00:46:43.620

of them work 8 hours, but they have plenty of time. Um-hum. I said the first thing you need to do cause nobody's going to hire you unless you at least have that college degree, and that's the first thing you need is a job. Um-hum. I said,

00:46:43.629 - 00:46:59.770

all of you should make a commitment to get your GEDs. Um-hum. But it didn't seem to me like they were doing enough to help themselves. They wanted, It seemed like it could provide some kind of interesting tensions and confrontations or, or something, you know. Uh, did

00:46:59.770 - 00:47:15.959

you find that kind of thing, you know, did you actually get into, you know, some real, uh, confrontation encounter sessions and all of that with you? Um, well, there was a confrontation of sorts the, the Sunday before. I decided I wasn't going down. On one Sunday.

00:47:16.110 - 00:47:33.169

Um-hum. But I figured that I was going to tell them why, so I went back the following Sunday and explained to them my feelings. Um-hum. And, um, There weren't really that many hot confrontations. Um-hum. I think that over the year, or at least from what Howard

00:47:33.169 - 00:47:51.459

tells me, that, um, some of them are beginning to come around and they feel as if maybe I was right. Uh-huh. So, uh, So you think there was some real learning going on, I mean, you know, the, that the experience was valuable for them. I, I

00:47:51.459 - 00:48:07.060

don't know how valuable it was. Another reason I left was I think that they put too much of a burden on me. Um-hum. I'm a reporter. I'm not a sociologist. Never took a sociology course. Um-hum. I don't know. And I didn't know what to tell them

00:48:07.060 - 00:48:18.620

in a lot of instances, and they kept asking me, well, what can we do about this and what can we do about that. Um-hum. I was the only one who had actually shown any real interest in that program before and since. Um-hum. They can't get anybody

00:48:18.620 - 00:48:37.229

to come down there on a regular basis, but, um, It was, I think they were asking too much of me and things that I just wasn't qualified to help them with. For instance, Well, advice. For one thing. See, I lived a very sheltered life. Even though

00:48:37.229 - 00:48:49.750

we were poor, I was never out on the street. I wouldn't know what street life was like. And there's no way I would know that. And some of them resented that. Some of them resented the fact that I was, I had a good job and was

00:48:49.750 - 00:49:10.850

making a decent living and, uh, some of them didn't like the way I talked. So, OK, well, let me ask you, was the experience valuable for you? I think it was. In, in what way? Well, it gave me, um, Some insight in the web exam. See,

00:49:10.889 - 00:49:33.310

most of those people, it also. Yeah. OK, it gave you some insight. Um, It just made me more aware of of the kinds of different people that there are and some of the motivation in doing the the half hour story. I got a chance to really

00:49:33.310 - 00:49:51.540

do some case histories on some of the inmates and, and it made you find out that just like they are saying they're no different from us. They're no different from anybody walking the streets out here. Except That some of them picked an easy way or what

00:49:51.540 - 00:50:07.500

they thought was an easy way to get money. Uh-huh. Some of them were weaker, and a few of them were victims, but just a few. Unfortunately, most of them believe that they are victims and until they're convinced that they're not, then they probably will continue to

00:50:07.989 - 00:50:21.429

live. So what kind of things did they say to you, you know, what was the ration rationale for saying I am a victim. You know, what, what did they say? Um, Some of them blamed it on being black, the fact that they were poor and there

00:50:21.429 - 00:50:36.000

was no other way that they could make a living. And, uh, some of them admitted that, uh, they just figured it was easier to get rich quick and they didn't want to. Some of them were very honest about the reasons for being there, and then some

00:50:36.000 - 00:50:53.860

of them were there. Because, uh, they killed somebody. Uh-huh. And, you know, murder is like that. Who knows why people kill people. I mean, one day you might kill somebody. One day I might feel like killing somebody. I don't know. About that, but overall, I found

00:50:53.860 - 00:51:10.250

it to be an interesting experience. And the thing that impressed me so much, or the thing that was on my mind so much is that most of them are so young. Uh-huh. It's just ridiculous to see so many young black men. In prison when they could

00:51:10.250 - 00:51:26.489

be out. Doing worthwhile things. Some of them are very talented like this picture. I mean this is a talented artist. The man who painted that picture is a 3 time loser. He's been in prison 3 times, very articulate, a very good writer. Why is this man

00:51:26.489 - 00:51:41.229

in prison? Well, you know, that it seems to be some kind of case for uh. The fact that he is a victim, uh, would you think so? Well, I don't go along with that. I just don't believe in that victim. I believe that you have to

00:51:41.229 - 00:51:57.270

rise above, and I'm not saying that people who do rise above or do it for any reason, except a lot of times they're just plain lucky. Uh, I'm not saying that you have to do it all yourself. People who do it because they've had a lot

00:51:57.270 - 00:52:14.610

of help, say they've got good parents who help them. Or they've run into a good teacher, or they've got super motivation, it takes all those things, but. Anybody who's successful, I think. is not going to accept the excuse that I'm a victim if you just sit

00:52:14.610 - 00:52:32.620

back and say, wow, I'm a victim and I can't do anything about it. I don't believe in that. OK, you've done some things which. You know, or uh. I guess in a, I guess in a considerable sense history making, you know, we haven't had, you know,

00:52:32.820 - 00:52:50.510

blacks in the media very long. Yeah You know, you're probably one of, you're one of the first blacks on, you know, to be employed by the television station and have a program on, on, uh, you know, television. There have been some before me like Lena River

00:52:50.510 - 00:53:08.300

Smith. I believe she was the first black woman on TV. This was, uh, when I was in high school, um, she died. I guess when I was in college. Uh-huh. But she was, I believe she was the first one on Channel 4. So you're talking about

00:53:08.300 - 00:53:23.030

maybe 65 or something when this kind of thing. Yeah, I would say, Well, blacks were just weren't on TV until the early 60s. Yeah. And it didn't happen until the federal government laid down these rules and says, look, every station, you gotta have at least one.

00:53:23.219 - 00:53:43.709

You know, that's when it happened. People don't make changes because they want to because of, um. Oh, probably as a result of all the, the civil rights legislation of the 60s and that came as a result of the um the civil rights movements and marches and

00:53:43.709 - 00:54:04.260

protests in, in the 50s and Dr. King and. Uh, things of that nature. It was all as a result of social pressure. OK, you say, uh, You know, the the with the with the criminals that you met at Kansas State. There weren't really that that many

00:54:04.260 - 00:54:24.909

differences between, you know, the average person and the person that's the point. That's why more people should at least go down to the um I wanna ask you something else. You said that sometimes when people make it, you know. You know, make become successful, uh, it's

00:54:24.909 - 00:54:42.310

just, it's just a matter of luck or being in the right place at the right time and that kind of thing, um. I think you're pretty successful, OK. And and have a lot, lot further to go, you know, you're 26, 27, 27 years old, but do

00:54:42.310 - 00:54:56.750

you think you're lucky? Do you think this is, this is what you, I think I've been lucky. No, I, I think I've been lucky, but I'm also a hard worker. Uh, I, and I think the reason is that when I was, when we were children growing

00:54:56.750 - 00:55:15.709

up, my father always said nobody owes you anything. I never grew up expecting anybody to give me anything. I never, I never grew up feeling that because I was black, white people. Or the white establishment owed me anything, you know, as always, you make it for

00:55:15.709 - 00:55:38.270

yourself. I've been lucky, true enough, uh, the station probably hired, well they did hire me because they needed somebody black, but I do my job and I do it well. And, um, So you're attributing so many things to your family that you're unmarried. I probably because

00:55:38.270 - 00:55:53.239

I appreciate uh a happy home situation that I'm not anxious to jump into anything that's not going to be happy for me. Um, I look at, you know, people that I went to school with and I see them married with a lot of kids and stuff

00:55:53.239 - 00:56:12.120

like that and I'm glad that I'm living my life like I'm living it because I'm growing and I'm changing and if, see if I were to have gotten married 10 years ago right out of high school. Then, um, I would not have a career today except

00:56:12.120 - 00:56:26.870

for, I wouldn't have the career that I do have today. So, I don't have any regrets about not being married, but I do plan to be married someday. Uh-huh. And if I don't get married, I do plan to have children someday. One or the other, hopefully

00:56:26.870 - 00:56:50.959

both. Bye. I do. I, I do have a, a good family, a good home life. I see. OK. Another thing you did, and you mentioned Muhammad Ali, you took him down to the Kansas State Penitentiary. You did a documentary with Muhammad Ali that that must have

00:56:50.959 - 00:57:06.679

been interesting. I really enjoyed it. I don't usually get to, to travel in my work. Because as a local station, we just do local stores. Um-hum. But I did get a chance to go to this training camp and do the half hour story. Which is where?

00:57:07.270 - 00:57:24.520

In Deer Lake, Pennsylvania. Um-hum. And that's the kind of show I would always like to do for dimensions. I think that people enjoy seeing stuff on film much more than they like seeing somebody interview someone at the studio, but it's very expensive to film something, and

00:57:24.520 - 00:57:37.270

you really, if you don't have a budget, you can't do things like that anyway. But I enjoyed doing it and I was very proud of the results of the, of the show. OK, what kind of person is Muhammad Ali, because I think a lot of people,

00:57:37.350 - 00:57:51.090

he's the kind of, uh, Mystery, you know, I mean, we see something of his public life, but then, you know, we got, we got tricked a few months ago when, you know, we found out he had several women, you know. You know, we thought he was

00:57:51.090 - 00:58:09.409

an upright, clean Muslim. Well, he can be upright and clean, can't he? I suppose, I suppose so, but it goes against, it goes against the Islamic, you know, creed, the creed has changed now. They allowed 4 wives. The creed has changed. No, Mohammad is very nice.

00:58:09.540 - 00:58:29.739

I've been a fan of his since I was in high school, um, since I was 16. I was just reading an article about uh what's his wife's name but his ex-wife Belinda his wife Belinda Belindala Kala I don't know how you pronounce it. OK. Her name

00:58:29.739 - 00:58:51.719

is Belinda Arca. No, her name was Belinda. She has a new name, but I saw something the other day about her, uh. Living in an apartment in alone somewhere in Chicago now and uh I don't know anything about that. Uh-huh. I don't know anything about. Well,

00:58:51.800 - 00:59:10.370

I wonder if I could just get you to talk about Ali for a minute. Well, What do you wanna know? I'm kind of interested in what kind of person he is. He just seemed like to be a very, very, um, down to earth person. He's, he.

00:59:11.679 - 00:59:23.959

It's very nice. That's what struck me about him. He was just very nice to people that he was around when we were doing the story at the training camp and just watching him relate to all people, like little kids who come up to him, just all

00:59:23.959 - 00:59:43.239

those kinds of people, but I've interviewed him, I think, maybe 4 times, um. The last time I interviewed him, he was on my New Year's show and he was a little different. He seemed, he seemed to be, um, kind of tired of all the demands on

00:59:43.239 - 00:59:59.199

him. And I think I would imagine that somebody who is as widely known as he is just can't get any rest. He can't get any peace, and he just seemed at the time, he said he wasn't gonna do any, any more interviews. What he has. He's

00:59:59.199 - 01:00:12.409

always saying he's not gonna do something, and he ends up doing it, but I think he's basically a very nice, warm person. He seems to be from, uh, the times that I've been around him, which, um, done the 4 interviews, and then I went to a

01:00:12.409 - 01:00:35.770

party for him once. So what do you, I mean, do you talk very much about, you know, uh, His own, his own thinking, uh. You know, his political kind of Yeah, Niles is a, a home for Children who need some place to stay, they're not necessarily

01:00:35.770 - 01:00:54.899

orphans, a lot of them, but they just need someplace to stay where they temporarily are for some length of time, and Niles offers them shelter and psychological counseling if they need it. And, uh, 10 to 11 care, which is most important for a child and uh

01:00:55.010 - 01:01:10.949

it's uh. Very important home, right? I'm on the board of directors and right now we're trying to raise $900,000 to build a new home. Oh, is that right? Yeah, yeah, $900,000. Mhm. We've got about half of it so far, you know, we want to build a

01:01:10.949 - 01:01:31.060

home right in the same location, right in the community, right next door to the old home. Where is the old home on, uh, 1911 East 23rd Street. Thank you. Yeah. I think that's kind of important that kind of, you know, some real commitment to the community

01:01:31.060 - 01:01:55.540

and to uh You know, children. Yeah, I like children, very much. Um, also, another thing that I'm involved in which I think is real, I'm very excited about this, it's a Central High School alumni group, and I think it's so exciting to see, um, it's composed

01:01:55.540 - 01:02:14.270

of alumni, say between the classes of 1960 and 1970, uh, 4 or 5, the most recent alumnus, and it's a growing group. Every week we get new people we meet once a week, and our commitment. Is to make Central the kind of institution it was when

01:02:14.270 - 01:02:29.020

we left or even better. We want to make it just a complete learning center in the envy of every high school in this city because when we were at Central in '66, we were state champs and we had school. Spirit like you wouldn't believe we were

01:02:29.020 - 01:02:44.969

proud to say we were from Central and the thing that concerns us is that right now the kids in high school, not just central but everywhere, don't care. They're not proud of where they came from they're not interested in learning. They're just, there's just no concern,

01:02:45.229 - 01:02:59.830

and I think it's so good to see a group of people who are not parents. Uh, some of us don't even live in the central community anymore, but we feel it's just because we're centralized and we still have the school pride we had when we were

01:02:59.830 - 01:03:13.939

there, we want to be the kind of place where the kids growing up now. We'll learn. There's no excuse for those kids not to learn, even if the school is raggedy as hell, even if they don't have new books, if their books are 20 years old,

01:03:14.310 - 01:03:30.929

if they wanna learn, they can, and that's what we're all about. We want, we've got several task forces, uh, we want to improve the building, the buildings and grounds. Also want to improve student morale. We want the students to be proud to be centralized. We want

01:03:30.929 - 01:03:49.100

the students to have a will to learn and be able to learn. We want to improve curriculum because everything's gone downhill since, uh, since we left there, and, uh, some courses aren't even offered to kids that are important. And uh I just it's I just wish

01:03:49.100 - 01:04:08.290

you could see the group because it grows every week and these people are really concerned for no other reason except that that one time they went through those halls of Central and they're also concerned because somebody's gotta do something because we're graduating a whole generation. Of

01:04:08.290 - 01:04:26.090

kids who can't read and write and uh that's ridiculous. I mean, who's going to pay our Social Security? If nothing else, when we retire, if we got kids who can't get a job because they can't do anything. So, I really like that organization and I like

01:04:26.090 - 01:04:44.840

what I see. OK. Well, I guess we could go and, but, you know. And I know that we have some time limitations, uh, so I'm very glad to have gotten to talk to you today. I want to thank you. You're more than welcome. I enjoyed it.

01:04:44.909 - 01:04:49.000

Anything else you want, let me know. All right, thanks a lot. Thank you.