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This is David Marrara, interviewer of the Black Archives of Mid-America. I'm interviewing Mr. Dave Kauti of the Urban Affairs Department Manpower Division. His position is manpower plant. The date is October 8th, 1976. Time is about 8:45. This interview is taking place at 5422 West Over, Kansas

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City, Missouri. Mr. Puti, when and where are you going? I was born in Evanston, Illinois. Well, actually, I was born in Joliet, Illinois, but I grew up in Evanston, Illinois. He was born in 1939, which makes him 36 today. Evanston is is the first suburb north

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of Chicago. Mhm So, I consider myself a Chicago, Chicagoan. Yeah. Uh, were your parents, uh, Originally, uh, from Evanston, um. My parents, uh what did they do? were interesting people, um. We're of Finnish heritage. And my parents grew up in northern Minnesota, north of Duluth. In

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the area, in the iron mining area of Minnesota. My grandfather, all my grandparents were born in Finland. My parents, That In these small towns in Finland and in northern Minnesota. Um, But, um, My father was a lawyer. And settled in Chicago. Right. Where a number of

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members of our family also said it. Um-hum. So we are also very much tied to Minnesota. I think the northern part of Minnesota. Uh, what were your parents' name? Uh, Ernest and Violet. My mother's maiden name was Lancey. Which in Finland were sussy lumpy, but uh

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they. Toned it down for uh anglicized it as we say for Americans. In the lamping. For me, my, my father's name, Came from the house where they were born. Where the family lived for several years, but before 1859, it was Peellica. This is a much more

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Finnish sounding name than Knu. But um, Your family Ancestors came from this very northern part of Finland, actually north of the Arctic Circle, about 60 miles north. And uh In those times, uh, actually not very long ago, One's middle, one's, uh, last name came from the

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house where one was born. So when one house where one lived. So When This man Pele bought this house. In about 1848, we became committees. All of you uh Mm Uh, interpret that though, uh, how does it become a, a community? Well, in, in those times,

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the The records were all kept by the church and every house in the village. Had a page in the church Bible. So that one recorded the births and deaths. I'm at page Local Bible. And so by that custom, uh, one became named. It's only relatively recently

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that last names became all that fixed stable among Finnish people at least. At least people in the remote northern areas of Finland. It's. Uh What about language? My, my, my great grandfather owned Ranger. When I went up to visit that village. One could see reindeer by

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the road. My relatives don't own reindeer anymore, but, uh, my great, My great, great grandfather and younger. So that was very much part of, part of that part of the country. Were you the only child? Oh you know that? No, I have a brother who's practicing

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law in Chicago and I, Sister who's out in Washington DC and a brother in Denver. So, we're spread pretty much across the, Mhm. Well, how long, uh, did you live around the uh Chicago area? Well, I grew up there and I guess. When I went into

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the army in '63, that was the. Time that I left Chicago for good. I went away to school to Dartmouth College out east in New Hampshire. Uh, from 57 to 62. Then he was back in Chicago for a while, When I went to the army. Really

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the last time I lived in Chicago. I've been gone since, Uh, How long have you been in, in the Kansas City, uh, metropolitan area? Well, In 1965 when I got out of the army. I went to the place I always wanted to be, which was Washington

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DC. And That was a particular. Fortunate moment in history. In the Johnson had just been elected president. And the Economic Opportunity Act has just passed. Actually, late 1964. And I got out of the army just as Project Head Start was starting up. And was hiring people

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literally off the street. And I was maybe the 20th or so employee that was employed under Project Head Start. And uh We're very, very lucky. Well, for 1, get employed and, and 2, get employed in such an interesting place. Had a very Interesting spring, crash program.

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Everybody's working 60, 70 hours a week. On the telephone all over the country. I remember I was negotiating grants in Mississippi and Louisiana. The next minute I'd be on the phone to New Hampshire and. It was really kind of a very exciting moment. We had money

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to spend and we're, we were, we thought we knew what to do with it and uh. Making all kinds of things happen. Well, After that initial. Push Head start. Uh, I went over to the community, what was called the Community Action program, Which was the main

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thrust of the Oxford Economic Opportunity. Worked there in the headquarters for a while and then, One Thursday, or one Monday after they said, well, how would you like to go to New York City for a couple of weeks and help out up there for a while.

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Um-hum. So they, A few things to get done up there and then we've got anybody to do them. Then about, I said that would be fine, uh, New York. And then about Thursday, they said, well, where we really need you is out in Kansas City. So,

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I said, well, I've never seen Kansas City. Sounds like it's fairly close to Denver and maybe I can go skiing. So, I came out here, And got so interested in what I was doing that I never left. I worked here for polio for about two years.

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At a very crucial moment, In my own personal history, I, Looked around for jobs or other places. For some reason or other, test for Scoba. He was the director of Local anti-poverty agency, the Human Resources Corporation. convinced me that he wanted to do something in my

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field. The employment program. Kansas City was a growing exciting place. I have known him. At the regional office. That's So instead of going to all those places I always thought I wanted to live, like Washington or Boston or someplace, Take another job here. I. You were

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one of the pioneers of the uh Providence. I, I really think I was. I was not only one of the. Very early employees, but uh Went out to, All kinds of places, particularly rural Missouri, and set up the original poverty. Here in Kansas City, we set

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up the concentrated employment program where I got. Um-hum. So, I really feel like I'm, Perfect. And 30. What, uh, you know, did you, when you first got into the, uh, program, Have you actually, you actually really interested in this kind of work or you just uh

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It they just what you do in terms of the job. It was very interesting. I came from a family which was very internationally oriented. And I always thought I wanted to be in. State Department and the Foreign Service. But I felt that And this was, you

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must remember in 1965, just when Vietnam was starting up. And somehow the international environment looked very Unpleasant, nasty. Domestic Programs looked very hopeful and, and we're gonna conquer the world and straighten out America and Cultivate our own garden and this is going to be much, much

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better than what we're gonna be doing overseas for the next. 10 years or what have you, so. Uh, and I. Grew up, I think, and went to college during a period when, People felt much more patriotic about America. They Maybe as a result of the Vietnam

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War or for whatever reason, uh. I felt Very, very patriotic at that, and, To be involved in something that you're going to make. America better It's very exciting. So I Really came into the war on poverty with very high hopes and I think most of the

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people who did. You know, this was the era when the Civil Rights Acts were passed. All kinds of things were happening. I can remember when Lyndon Johnson. Uh, made his speech in 1965 and finished it off saying, you know, we shall overcome. Well, that was, you

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know, pretty. Pretty Important watershed for a national figure to say that and say that phrase, you know, and and. You know, just everything seems to be really, uh, coming together. Of course things stopped coming together about 2 or 3 years later. Um, Vietnam got very tough

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and nasty, and the federal budget got much tighter and OAO didn't have money to spend and everybody started thinking LBJ was a bastard. And So things were never quite so sweet or idealistic as they were in that moment from say 65 to. 66 or 67 if

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you will, a very, very brief moment, 18 to 24 months. You have, uh, you used the term, uh, patriotic, and I know that, uh, in some senses that the term has been seen as something leftist and right is, uh, Could you explain your concept of the

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patriarch? Well, America is a very interesting country. Um I think Particularly In the 60s. Everything Seem to be sort of opening up in a sense, uh. And that we felt freer. The sort of. You think of the 50s as being a sort of quiet, sober period.

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When everybody was trying to make a buck. In the 60s, I think, at least for one early moment, or maybe in the mid-60s if you will. People thought we were really going to be a great country. And America's always been fun. It's interesting. And I just

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found myself. I mean, I felt very patriotic before that point, but I just felt, This was the first time I was really exposed to the whole country and the whole, you know, power of the national governments and, you know, sort of the turned toward all these

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idealistic purposes and we were really reaching into all kinds of places. I mean, when you get on the lines in Mississippi and you're going to make some million dollar grant and you're working with some guy, you know, way at the end or. I was on the

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line to, um, I don't know if you ever heard of the fellow down in, Louisiana Man who does the cooperatives, the priests. Down in Lafayette, Lafayette, southeast southwest Louisiana. Father or something or other. Milwaukee? No, no. No, no, he's in, he's in, uh, Milwaukee, but, um,

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Oh, I remember it in the middle. But I was on the line with that guy, you know, working out a Head Start grant, and I was out into rural Missouri working on down in the Ozarks, you know, where all these funny people supposed to live and.

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We're working on, on the anti-poverty programs and really, I thought, you know, doing a great job and doing great things. I mean, everything seemed sort of possible and. Um-hum. And, uh, you know, we were having fun at the same time. I think particularly, It was a

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moment when I think many white people started to get to know black people in a way. In a much more intimate way, We had in the past. Although I had grown up in a town where there were many black people. Mm. Always playing on sports. Yeah.

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Young childhood. Friendship, but, I think, I don't think we really got to know. Black people as adults or the culture or something that was Really You felt was part of us until the 60. That opened up a lot of, Feeling and emotion I mean it's just

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a very exciting era. It was exciting for all kinds of reasons. So in other words, uh, you were dealing with, with true democracy. You can see, uh, America reaching its. It's ultimate goal at that point. Well, we felt we were on our, on our way to

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it. Was it true or what was it, but we just felt we were on our way to it wherever, wherever it would end up. So. Um, around 60, 65, 66, you began to work with uh HRC. Yeah, it was actually, it was in November 1967. Which

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was a moment when, It became apparent that the, anti-poverty effort was going to be focused much more into jobs. Into an effort to try and Particularly to break up. The Very well, there was a series of studies or. Well, there's a couple of things that happened,

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uh. One was that the, Civil rights movement. was increasingly focused to economic progress. The Civil Rights Act passed and so everybody was poor. And how was everybody gonna cease to be poor? Um, so there was a demand for jobs. And then there was also a feeling

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that the poverty program was very heavily oriented toward just the What politicians felt was just raising hell. And so, And he said that Some of the Officials in Washington Determined to focus a lot of the money away from community organization and this kind of thing and

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more into helping people find jobs. Because I became aware of that. In the federal government. A lot of contact with Washington. And realizing that there was going to be a big enterprise. Going to be started up. Major American cities. That Kansas City is gonna be one

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of those. And that I would like to be involved in starting up. I Because not only was it going to be. A great thing But it was also going to be an an opportunity. Do something, be something, of course, make some money. Develop Professional Roll, if

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you will. So of course there was a lot of. And complicated motives. Doing this kind of thing. I think in a sense I never had any concept of how difficult it was going to be. When it was all said and done. Incredibly difficult, challenging period in

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my life. The, uh, Well, as many satisfactions. Home it's a real pain for me. What should I do? You want me to just go through the whole thing or? Well, uh, go right here. I, I think that's, People. Well, I went to work for HRC in

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'68. Yeah. Mr. Wall, Mr. Phil Wall said that he really wanted to get started with employment programs. I thought that that was going to be, Everything is more or less. Roll out performance, so to speak. Well, that is not how the poverty program works. Many, many,

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many agendas. One of the heavy agendas is because patience. Jobs, not just jobs in the bigger economy, but jobs within the poverty program itself. And this was an era of HRC when the board meetings lasted. 3 and 4 hours arguing. Arguing, I A great deal of,

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of, Frustration Real cross purposes as to what the program is about. You think, uh, that's one just, uh, there was a lot of, um, I think With all those. Well, Um, People are people and what they want, In a very real sense, is. A job or

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a role for themselves. Or if they have some power. To be able to get a job. To somebody who was important to them. In many senses, the poverty program is important for its Whoever had helped. As for whoever it employed, and in a very real sense,

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many, many people. Mexican, black, or low income white community for that matter. All of a sudden had a, a chance for employment, not just in some factory role or some dull. An inspiring job, but in an almost professional capacity professional capacity. And so there was a

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tremendous struggle going on. Of what the poverty program should do. And who should do it. So in that sense, Those of us who thought that well, we will go out and do something very efficiently for people. had to really realize that not only were we going

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to do something for people, but we had to do something with people. And in a sense, that's not what the kind of people that we thought might be easiest. To get along with and get the job done. That was one part of it. And then there

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were incredibly difficult struggles with the Labor Department. And the federal government. Employment service. Mm Federal government Came through with this thing called the concentrated employment program. This was Lyndon Johnson's. Sort of trust to restructure the poverty program. And it did make available about $2.5 million. We

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set up a program that helps, People in the core of the central city. Good job. But on the way to establishing that program, we had to find out how much the Employment service is going to be involved. How much the school district is going to be

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involved. How much People from the community itself are going. And this made the whole development of very complicated. The big devils at that time seemed to me to be the Labor Department. Which had their ideas about how the program ought to be run. And the employment

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service, Which simply seemed to want to have its own staff. Get as many of its staff on the payroll as possible. In the school district that had this big. A vocational training center with its staff. Getting those people paid for. And so there seemed to be

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tremendous self-interest. Bodies is involved. The community itself, which really wanted to get its own people hired to run the program, uh, they seemed the least of all evils, frankly, and the major evil seemed to be these, these intent. The bureaucracy. But One of their cuts of

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the answer. Um-hum. Um, I don't know Well, I think we were right. But I've come to appreciate the bureaucracy a little more over the years. Maybe they had their Their role in it. Much more than I would have acknowledged. 67. It But It was necessary, I

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think. Mhm You struggle with them. To fight them As hard as we could So that the program wouldn't just end up a bunch of mush. Something that didn't do anything, didn't work. Um-hum. So I think it was a good fight, tremendously energy consuming fight. one I

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think I'm really impressed having been through it. How much, how hard it is to start something new and move. Si, even when you're working with agencies that have been around for a long time and they're going to do a major portion of it, still it's incredibly

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hard to start something. Well, Through the months of 1968. HR the first months of '68 up till June, HRC was going through. OK. Difficult struggles over uh personnel policies. Uh, federal struggles with federal officials at OEO and Uh Then we got into our struggles with the

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Labor Department, but all these things were made developing this new program. Very, very difficult. But all of the work did get done and we did get our money about July 1st. About that time, somewhat before that time, Burning Books, uh, came on as the administrator of

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the program. So I became his assistant. Which in a sense It's a difficult thing for me. So Those, those are pretty interesting periods. Um, During the time that we were developing this new program, um. In fact, when he, I remember the very evening I was down

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at HRC headquarters, uh. And Martin Luther King was shot. First of all, I couldn't believe it. And didn't really, I guess I couldn't really share the grief or the feeling that, that people, Help at that moment. Uh, But it was a sort of a great, Cataclysm.

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Uh, the riots were Took place shortly thereafter. You Trying to do what we could, although our, we weren't really a social work agency or, Relief agency. Mr. Stall tried to do what he could for, for relief. But actually, when all is said and done, the riots.

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I think made a great impression on Kansas City, but they did not create a whole tremendous amount of suffering. Except for those people who were killed, um. But I think One really had a sense of doing something that was very urgent and very important. And the

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fact The development of this employment program started before the riots. But still, the fact that, you know, we were there and we're still, you know, just setting this up. At the time when they took place, Um, Created a real sense of urgency and I think a

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certain sense of community appreciation. For what we were doing. Um-hum. But I might also say, and I think this is one thing. Just pointing out that Particully pointing out to. White people, that about that time or somewhere before. Really started to get very paranoid about even

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being close to a black. And all the times that, The riots and so forth. I never once Stopped, mugged, robbed, what have you. And I'm just going in and out all times of the day and night and driving through the, so And our staff person, staff,

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staff, black and white, male and female. Uh, I can't remember a single incident during that period of time. P robbed or physically threatened. Unfortunately, The people who robbed him and were threatened were our trainees. Hm. That's probably the hard reality of it, but, In the sense

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that Experiencing danger, Of course. I did not have very much of that. Um-hum. But I'll get to a little more of that later on. Uh, because there was a certain amount. At that time. I think Um, Well, just to, to print a few facts on this,

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uh. We ended up establishing a major employment center at 31st and Prospect, 30-30 Prospects, formerly Kat's drugstore. An empty shell when we took it over. Today it's still Providing service Honeycombs with partitions and and so forth, but when we took it over, it was just an

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empty empty three story uh former drug store and warehouse. Uh, we also had a a center in the Wayne Minor housing project. In the space of about. 3 or 4 months we could plan to take on 1000 people. It was one of the most foolish things

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I ever planned. They called me a planner. I had no concept of what it meant to take on 1000 people. Take on? What do you mean take on? Well, take in. Well, in a sense, uh, we were employing because in fact we were providing a maintenance

00:35:55.520 - 00:36:14.219

allowance to everybody we took in. And um, I don't know why, I don't think we got up. Trying to think of the maximum number of people we would have had on at one time. Oh, perhaps 3 or 400 people, but you know, we were as if

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we were the employer of all those people who were in training or some kind of experience with us, about 3 or 4 or 500 people. Which is a large number of people, particularly when you have an inexperienced organization. One that's trying to fight out interorganizational battles

00:36:31.760 - 00:36:56.219

and train basically inexperienced staff. Uh, and trying to set up new procedures and so forth. I think we're committed to try and deal with each individual. In many cases, we were able to do things for individuals, which were very good. But in other cases, The problems

00:36:56.219 - 00:37:24.189

of the individual are just way beyond what you can do. We could provide some training. We could provide, Some behavior restructuring. But At least that first group of people who swept through the doors. It's very convenient. Many, many of them were on dope, Um-hum. And alcoholic.

00:37:25.669 - 00:37:45.139

People with really severe behavior problems. I can remember that first year of, And things were so disorganized really that I in an administrative capacity would frequently have to deal with enrollees who were causing problems, so I got to know many of them. Some of them would

00:37:45.139 - 00:37:58.709

get to know me and they'd want a loan or something like that, you know, and, God knows I made a few of them. I got to know quite a few people. And then I remember driving in in the morning and I would hear that so and

00:37:58.709 - 00:38:21.370

so was, uh, murdered last night. Um. And in that first year, maybe 3 or 4 people that I knew, Who are partic For the murderer. And so you began to have a little sense of. I work In the jungle. Asphalt jungle with, uh, daily life. Um-hum.

00:38:23.159 - 00:39:01.209

Yeah And one participant. Has a nice guy. Got married Married another trainee. All kinds of high hopes. Inability to control himself and keep himself sober. Um-hum. And then one morning, He reported to have been killed, committing a burglary. Another one of our staff was murdered for

00:39:01.209 - 00:39:29.679

roaching on his drug. You're going to be all right. Um-hum. It was really difficult to isolate the program from some of the pathology around you. For a while we didn't realize it, but all of a sudden we'd see young men. um Alert, bright young men wandering

00:39:29.679 - 00:39:57.290

through the building, Racks of clothes on their back. Selling stolen goods. Um-hum. You know, it's kind of, Pathologies really were, We didn't know how to deal with them. I guess. Later on, the program developed kind of a bristly front with a. Very secure door in the

00:39:57.290 - 00:40:17.129

front. And the security guard, armed guard out front. I guess it was a hard lesson learning how to control that pain. At the time, you had to almost, uh, you had to almost coexist. With these, uh, happenings, I, and I believe with the feeling because of

00:40:17.129 - 00:40:35.949

the, I haven't been in a small town, myself, I was not really involved in the kind of. Things that he was. Right. were doing, you know. Right. And he came from a middle class environment. Right. Black or white. Right. It was a pretty heavy shock that

00:40:35.949 - 00:41:02.600

he was exposed to this. This real sickness that, All right. Um-hum. Um, at the same time, we're trying to fight it out with the Labor Department. School district and the employment service and, Ourselves. Right Develop a system that worked. I'd say that Berman was a very

00:41:02.600 - 00:41:29.610

strong leader during this period. Hm I think Brennan was very strong both in, in dealing with the bureaucracy in the sense of being a black man and being. We go to Speak with somewhat the moral force of the black community. Against the Labor Department or against

00:41:29.610 - 00:41:57.139

the employment service or against those bureaucratic interests. And on the other hand, against those, Those Elements in the black community themselves that at that point might have torn the program to bits. And that was the era of the Black Panthers. Tough work. What about, uh, I

00:41:57.139 - 00:42:17.889

think, uh, around about that time you can. Uh, then sort of, uh, there were other. Organizations that began to spring up at that time that were kind of force and the SAC20 was a little more spiritual. Yeah, SAC 20 was, you know, somewhat after that period

00:42:18.070 - 00:42:52.000

and Um, The I think 20 represented a, a kind of, uh, maturing or, Of the impulse, the initial word impulse is the end of the. And uh, Looks upon one of his finest hours the day when, Panthers came to call, call on him. Um-hum. Because a

00:42:52.000 - 00:43:13.610

pretty hairy era, um, in the sense that a lot of our staff are carrying guns and. You know, really feeling threatened, particularly the black staff members who maybe Understood how violent things could get, how hairy things could get at some moments, more than the white staff

00:43:13.610 - 00:43:32.330

members who did. And Vernon said, um, You know, I, I, I'm here if you want me. Well, I wouldn't even say the way he, he said, but, uh, you know, more or less, if you want me, come and get me, but you better be ready when

00:43:32.330 - 00:43:58.439

you come. Um-hum. And that kind of, Forceful confrontation, so. And Who they are. I will, oh, why was the circumstance the situation really. it. Well, it, it, you know, of course, it grew up with the desire to have jobs. Or to get things to, The kind

00:43:58.439 - 00:44:23.209

of felt they wanted at that moment. Which Vernon couldn't give them, which nobody could have given them at that particular moment. I think, you know, people you mentioned sack 20, you know. Sector It was much more subtle or ineffective. Yeah. Sort of channeling that desire to

00:44:23.530 - 00:44:48.370

have a real piece of the action. Into some kind of method which the government can deal with. Um-hum. And people like Bernardt and very touching. Particularly when Thompson. Became very savvy and. How to deal with the bureaucracy. How do you get money out of the government.

00:44:49.820 - 00:45:25.520

I originally more or less. Acceptable fashion. And, I think we're able to, Do many of the things they wanted to do. Um, Without having to. Violent. Um-hum. But on the other hand, uh, perhaps with some of the, Well, you know, the old, uh, Story about how

00:45:25.520 - 00:45:40.159

the government would prefer to deal with people who more or less can talk the language. And the fear that the people who are, you know, really crazy and somehow these people that we can more or less deal with the lesser of two of the less versus

00:45:40.159 - 00:46:06.810

of the two evils than, than the people who are really evil. But then, of course, people like Vernon Brooks, And near Pemberton. Um, you know, everything, you know, tell me a bit more. Older and mature black people. Were as offended by. The social action community of

00:46:06.810 - 00:46:37.610

20 people. I was more offended than the white people were. Because they felt that they were not playing the game. I. In, in, in a dignified, proper way. Um-hum. I know her. Well, I forget what it was. I think Lee Swinton called uh. Used to call

00:46:37.610 - 00:47:09.030

sack 20 the social abandons or the social rip off artists or something like that, but Very, very hostile to them. Uh very understanding. So what what we're trying to do. And there was a lot of. Uh, cleavage. In the Viking. Um-hum. I could feel. So Yeah.

00:47:10.610 - 00:47:46.790

Dealing with sac 20. There was no, Remember SA 20 never spoke for the entire black community. For me, you know. I Older generation of black people were, much more inclined to, Operation, No, I can. I think, but they can be, That can be true in terms

00:47:46.790 - 00:48:06.729

of uh. The total community in terms of the youth of the uh uh Caucasian community too. Oh sure, you know, I mean, uh, likewise all the, the new left and so forth, I mean the the SAC2 was part of a nationwide movement of, of young people

00:48:06.729 - 00:48:40.929

sort of. Seizing Initiative and see them. control and influence. You can tell. Uh, What about some of the, some of the, the, uh, leaders, other leaders. You mentioned a few of, Because it I think. So, he's Urban native, right? Yeah. OK. Tim is just now retiring

00:48:41.250 - 00:49:14.649

from the urban area. Is he retiring? He's retiring this, um, At New Year's about this year. Really an old war horse, a guy who's hung in there and, I've been working away for, OK. Um. Really a very conservative. Uh, mainstream American values, man. Oh boy, I

00:49:14.649 - 00:49:38.520

remember, uh, going to one of these Urban League dinners. They held in way minor, uh, Like a lame minor, uh, You know, the social service thing. Um-hum. It was like supporting your local police. I mean, the whole thing was, you know, Law and Order. This was

00:49:38.520 - 00:50:01.310

about 1967. So, you know, Penn was always represented. You know, really law and order, and in that sense, many white people sort of looked and then. To say something about, you know, tell them, tell us what to do or tell us what we want to hear

00:50:01.310 - 00:50:28.959

or what have you. Now Penn's a hell of a man and he, you know, provided a lot of leadership for this Kansas City plan and so forth. But Yes. His style is, you know, only 11, you know, portion. Um, As for the political people and, For

00:50:28.959 - 00:51:01.090

people and so forth. Uh, I would say that, uh, They have been important, but by no means as important as they appear in the newspapers. There's just one part of the total. All that. Um-hum. I think that uh probably people like Charles Hasley have been much

00:51:01.090 - 00:51:33.570

more interested in this kind of activity that I'm involved with the programs and social services. Then So, the older generation, He's walking. And the doctor. and those people, I don't think they ever understood. Delivery of government services. Before that. There was another very popular, Young person,

00:51:33.649 - 00:52:00.840

uh, who was involved in the politics of the city council. Mhm. Became a city councilman along with the Uh, Charles, yeah, but you told me. Well, Um, I met him on a number of occasions. Really very sad. Um, he's certainly a man who had everything going

00:52:00.840 - 00:52:29.449

for him. I'd be really honest to say that. That there are many black young men in the past decade who were. Had very broad possibilities open to them and, For some reason or other. Self-destructive Cobert was certainly one of them. Yale graduate. The guy who got

00:52:29.449 - 00:53:05.520

the largest, Electoral vote, city election. But all the Because it's Running at large, so you got the largest, I think that's the largest vote of any candidate, the mayor. Procedure. Good. But Charles Hasley, who nobody knew much about. Uh, Nobody expected it to be a great

00:53:05.520 - 00:53:35.719

light shining. Anything. And it's been very stably hanging in there and, uh, it's, uh, Very a very effective. So One thing that I've learned in the past. Couple of years since we, You never know who's going to hang in there. there are some that do and

00:53:35.729 - 00:53:59.409

often they aren't the people that particularly aren't the people who are most impressive to the white community. They aren't necessarily the most well spoken. And white people are particularly oppressive people who talk well. Often those people don't, aren't the ones that have the staying power. Certainly

00:53:59.409 - 00:54:42.639

burning books Um, It's not the most well spoken person. But it sure hangs in there. So the same, Mhm Sometimes the more Articulate lights. Burn out. Burn out faster. Is not to be descriptive but there is. That, that's, that's very true. You can, So, uh, What

00:54:43.179 - 00:55:10.250

are some of your Major changes that uh have taken place. So between the time that you came into the bedroom. And That's what Came out of. Yeah, um, I, I did, and I went to work for the Mid-America Regional Council. Fall of '69, which really took

00:55:10.250 - 00:55:38.050

me out of the. Get on. Took me into more broader metropolitan concerns since I. Metropolitan parties before we moved to them, it was interesting, uh, also about the fact that the program expanded. And it actually started out as a black, black program in the sense uh

00:55:38.050 - 00:55:59.739

geared to, to really help the blacks in the inner city and begin to spread out into the suburbs. Yeah, uh, the employment programs, uh, really are. Areaw at this point, uh, Uh, through a series of events, I ended up back in the employment programs and under

00:55:59.739 - 00:56:22.050

this new Uh, comprehensive Employment and Training Act, which was passed in '73, It really made available these kind of funds to all areas of the metropolitan areas in all areas of the country, so. William Brooks and I. Reunited if you will, in, in '74 uh at

00:56:22.050 - 00:56:48.500

the city as part of a program which was not just serving the inner city of Kansas City, Missouri, but north of Kansas, you know, the northland counties, uh Cass Clay and gray counties, Cass County. Um All of Kansas City. And I think I personally think that

00:56:48.510 - 00:57:13.169

that is a very good thing because I personally feel that that menopause programs were, were not and should not and will never really be successful if They are just for black people. Uh, I don't think the country, In the long haul. We support a program which

00:57:13.169 - 00:57:41.360

is just providing. So, I think it is a good thing that Uh, the program being made available to people north of the Missouri River, Throughout Kansas City or? I think we're effectively serving people. Of course, that has to be balanced with the, Heavy concern that, 521.

00:57:42.790 - 00:58:06.020

Fact that, at least in our program, at least, Remember the exact percentage, but probably about 2/3 of the clients are still black. And I think that Black people will expect, Perhaps rightly so that they will be the people who run these programs. But be that as

00:58:06.020 - 00:58:30.139

it may, uh, They are universal. OK. These are the kind of programs that, I think every modern industrial society has. I think maybe the United States started late for them to help people fit into this. I kind of sort of a sort of um visualistic kind

00:58:30.139 - 00:58:56.840

of thing. Well, I think they're just necessary kind of programs because, There ain't There's not an easy way of finding your way. Into the world. In our society, and many people don't automatically have some way of getting there, dealing with the facts and figures in those

00:58:56.840 - 00:59:19.679

in that area. Uh, it's, it's, it's more like, uh, there's a reality that, that really became evident enemy. Uh, that, uh, perhaps, More so than, than, than being a color thing, it became, uh, as you say, maybe a universal thing in the sense that probably 85%

00:59:19.879 - 00:59:50.750

of people in America actually fall into the category. You know, medium standard services. Yeah, I don't know what percentage it is. It's, it's certainly not 85%. It's more like. Oh, Well, it 15 to 20% have been poor in the past decade. Uh And not all of

00:59:50.750 - 01:00:15.860

those people can. Really, in your own circumstances expect to find them for many of them are old. Welfare money and so forth. But a larger percentage than I think most Americans thought, uh, particularly a more universal percentage. Be it 1015, 20%. Of all of us. Really

01:00:15.860 - 01:00:43.620

want they need this kind of choice. I think to the extent that we can. I'm sure all kinds of people. To that extent. We'll be able to keep, A permanent program. Because the feeling of the sixties, that, you know, that just doesn't last forever. Um, it's.

01:00:46.590 - 01:01:09.389

Right, right, and, and the feeling of benevolence. That was flowing in the land in 1965 and 1966. Just, you know, it's petered out. Um-hum. At this point. Yeah. reality. Well, just the selfishness or what have you. It's just a more, you know, kind of a, uh,

01:01:10.560 - 01:01:18.429

Help me kind of thing. Right. And many people feel that they need help with employment. I,