00:00:01.139 - 00:00:24.479

Doctor Fields of the Kansas City Public School System, today's date is June 1st, 1976. This is Horace Peterson, the executive director of the Black Archives of Mid America. First of all, Doctor Fields, what's your full name? Uh, Edward Eugene. Fields. All right. E D W A

00:00:24.479 - 00:00:41.279

R D capital E U G E N E F I E L D S. All right. Doctor Fields, where were you born? I was born at Kirkwood, Missouri. When were you born? June 24th, 1918. OK. What was your mother's name? My mother was, uh, her maiden

00:00:41.279 - 00:01:13.290

name was Sarah Young. Uh, she, uh, was from a community. Known as Winchester, Tennessee. Uh, she came to. Uh, Saint Louis area. Uh, at the age of 12, about 193. And she came to that area. Uh, with a family by the name of Augustine's. Uh, as

00:01:13.290 - 00:01:35.860

a very young domestic. Uh, which was characteristic at that time. August Augustines were white. OK. Uh, what were the circumstances of Tennessee? Uh, she was born in Tennessee and, uh, came from Tennessee to, uh, Saint Louis area and a little community just to the east of,

00:01:35.870 - 00:02:05.879

uh, of what was then the carpet city limits of, uh, of Kirkwood. OK, um, um, do you remember her mother's name or her father's name? Uh, her mother's name was, uh, Uh, Mary Young. Uh, I don't recall my grandfather's, uh. Uh, name, uh, I've, uh, I've

00:02:05.879 - 00:02:28.509

heard it, but, uh, uh, I never had a chance to meet him. And, uh, I did meet my grandmother about 1926, as I recall. What occupation? Uh, my grandmother, of course, by that time, uh, she was, uh, uh, pretty far along in years, uh, but she

00:02:28.509 - 00:02:52.190

had been a domestic, uh, primarily a domestic and a farmer, uh, as was characteristic, uh, of many of the. Uh, the blacks who came out of that area of Tennessee. My father's name was Archie Sylvester Fields. Um, Dad was born in Saint Louis. And lived in

00:02:52.190 - 00:03:22.889

and around Saint Louis practically all of his life. Um, Uh, he and mother were married. Uh, about 19. 15, I believe. And, uh, I was born in 1818. Uh, I never had a chance to see either of my grandfathers. His, uh, Uh, his father was Samuel

00:03:22.889 - 00:03:51.990

Fields, and, uh, I understand that his occupation was, uh, uh, kind of, um. What would be a mad on a steamboat that operated out of Saint Louis South. Uh, his mother. Uh, was, uh, a Cherokee Indian. And, um, Uh, her name was, um, Uh, Also was

00:03:51.990 - 00:04:14.080

Mariah uh Fields. And um, Uh, I, I was born just prior to her death, but, uh, I can't recall her, uh, because my, of my age at that time. Um-hum. Uh, I never had, how old were you at the time of her death? Uh, approximately, uh,

00:04:14.279 - 00:04:39.459

two years old, a year to two years old. Uh, what was your mother and father's occupation? Who died in 1962, was a domestic. I might say and a good one. she uh did uh a lot of cooking and catering. Um, she also did a great deal

00:04:39.459 - 00:05:01.290

of laundry work, um, house cleaning, day work and that kind of thing. Uh, my mother won uh several awards, uh, uh, blue ribbons and medals during the 1904 World's Fair as a cook. Uh, and incidentally, uh, she could neither read nor write. She never had the

00:05:01.290 - 00:05:22.570

opportunity for formal education. But uh she had what I would say uh a, a good deal of uh what she used to call mother wit. And uh she had uh a lot of skills that uh that she acquired over her lifetime. No, she could not read

00:05:22.570 - 00:05:52.290

a cookbook. Uh, my father graduated from uh Lincoln Institute at Jefferson City. Uh, he taught, uh, school for a while. What class? Uh, the, uh, his, uh, Uh, class of, uh, I'd have to research that. Approximately. Uh, approximately 19, Um, I guess 8 or 9. Somewhere

00:05:52.290 - 00:06:13.730

back in there. It's Lincoln Institute. Lincoln Institute. OK. And, um, He taught school for a while. Uh, but then, uh, he took on the trade of piano tuning and repair work. Uh, he was quite a musician, uh. He did a great deal of that kind of

00:06:13.730 - 00:06:32.910

work. As a matter of fact, uh, that was uh the work that he enjoyed most. Uh, uh, he did some entertaining, uh, in his younger years, um, uh, I might point out that, uh, uh, the depression sort of interrupted his, uh, goal for all of us,

00:06:33.000 - 00:06:54.160

uh, and that was that we would all be, uh, uh, musicians after a fashion. Um, But, uh, because of the difficult times, it started in the late 1920s, it was not possible for us to uh achieve that goal. Um, uh, how old are you now? Uh,

00:06:54.279 - 00:07:10.029

right now I'll be, well, I'll be 58 years old the 24th of this month. OK. Um, uh, this, well, while you, when you were in Saint Louis, um, What's, what's your earliest recollection as far as, let's say the age of 5 years old, uh, what was

00:07:10.029 - 00:07:32.510

going on in your life at 5 years old? I mean, can you, I think I've, I think I've, uh, recall and the kinds of things that uh you have heard repeated before you as the, uh, old timers sort of talked a little bit. At 5, Uh,

00:07:32.570 - 00:07:59.420

the family was uh. Uh, living Let's see, we, we moved around a little. Um, I was born on Monroe Street over in the east area of Kirkwood just outside of the city limits. Uh, I was a, a doctor was Doctor Baldwin, uh, a black physician who

00:07:59.420 - 00:08:18.720

came from Saint Louis out, uh, to help, uh, most of the blacks in that area, uh, at time of delivery, and this was done at home. But, uh, I had his services as did my brother and, uh, one of my, my next oldest sister who is

00:08:18.720 - 00:08:41.948

now dead. All right, uh, give me your brother's name. My brother's name was John Fields, John Nathaniel Fields. Yes, the only brother, and he's dead. I had, uh, Mary, uh, Marie Fields, who was, uh, older than myself, now dead. Uh, sister Sarah Elizabeth Fields, uh. Now

00:08:41.948 - 00:09:06.820

dead Uh, a sister, Pearl Helen Fields, still living, uh, at, uh, Kirkwood, and another sister, Marion, uh, Anne Fields, who is still living, that's the baby sister of the crowd. Where is she? She is also at Kirkwood. Now back to the age 5, by this time,

00:09:06.909 - 00:09:25.719

uh, my brother and I were, uh, uh, uh, both, uh, born, he was 3 at that time. Uh, we were living on, uh, Monroe Street, uh, over in this area that I mentioned earlier called Kentucky Town. Uh, I can remember, uh, the Bates family who lived

00:09:25.719 - 00:09:47.000

up the street from us. Uh, I can remember the Baker family, uh, because of the long association that went on, the Edwards family, uh, the Batson family, uh, and, uh, well, at that time, um, the, um, the only youngster in our neighborhood that was, uh, my

00:09:47.000 - 00:10:06.739

age, uh, was a boy by the name of, uh, of, uh. Uh, uh, James Edwards, and, uh, I guess he was, uh, would be regarded as my best friend. Of course we, no, we didn't start the school in those days until you were 6. we did

00:10:06.739 - 00:10:25.950

not have the advantage of, uh, of, uh, of a kindergarten. Uh, by this time, the family, uh, uh, shortly after, uh, I would say my 5th birthday and before the birth of my, uh, sister Sarah. Uh, the family moved over in another section into what we'd

00:10:25.950 - 00:10:53.950

call Kirkwood proper, um, onto Harrison Street. And this is where uh my sister Sarah was born. Um, and, uh, it was, uh. Uh, about this time that, uh, I started into school. Uh, 6 at the age of 6. We, uh, uh, attended, uh, the Adams, I'm

00:10:53.950 - 00:11:15.039

sorry, the Booker T. Washington Elementary School. Which was uh the one of two schools in the total area for black children. It was a two-room school uh over on uh on Adams Avenue. And I might say that uh Uh, shortly after this, the family moved to

00:11:15.700 - 00:11:35.409

333 West Washington Street, which was closer to the school. And uh, Uh, made it a little easier for, for me then. What type of enthusiasm did you have initially for school? Um, I've always had, uh, uh, real enthusiasm for school. As a matter of fact, uh,

00:11:35.530 - 00:11:55.000

I would say that, uh, much of the attitude that, uh, as I recall now and as I have recalled earlier. Uh, the pastors of our churches, uh, at that time and the minister who, who baptized me, we used to call it christening in those days, uh,

00:11:55.080 - 00:12:14.419

who baptized me and his name was, uh, Reverend Smith. Uh, I don't recall his first name right offhand, but his widow, uh, just died a few years ago here in Kansas City, a member of Bethel. Um, but, um, With a little research I could get that

00:12:14.419 - 00:12:35.830

name uh for you, but uh I can recall uh these men and the the uh citizens both black and white around Kirkwood uh always encouraged uh uh us to uh to go to school. Uh, I can remember my very first teacher, Mrs. Martha E. Shores. Uh,

00:12:35.909 - 00:12:53.460

incidentally, uh, I think one of the real joys of, uh, of going to school is to recall the kind of little pet names that, uh, the children had for, uh, for their teachers. Uh, she had reached the age where her face was, uh, quite wrinkled, uh,

00:12:53.630 - 00:13:10.080

and we used to refer to her affectionately as cabbage mouth, but we never let her hear us say that. But uh she was uh I had 3 or 4 nicknames uh uh my very earliest one was Pickle and I got that one because, well, I guess

00:13:10.080 - 00:13:28.679

the very first one I had was Baby and the, the story is that, uh, some neighbors asked my mother, uh, uh, where the baby was and my brother John, uh, pointed to me and said there he is. And uh so that sort of stuck and then

00:13:28.679 - 00:13:44.200

uh when I started in school, they started calling me Pickle. Uh, I guess it's because I enjoyed pickles so much and I still do. Uh, one of my, uh, former associates, uh, used to tease me here in Kansas City when we'd have a, an affair wherever

00:13:44.200 - 00:14:00.450

there was pickles were served. He said that I'd always make a bed of pickles in order to eat the rest of the meal. Uh, and then after that, uh. I picked up, uh, several nicknames, uh, um, I used to, they used to call me Hatchet because

00:14:00.450 - 00:14:13.570

of the work that I used to do with, with that instrument. Uh, I learned to throw one quite well and I was, uh, able to handle it quite well. I could probably do just about anything except pick my teeth with it, but, uh, back to the,

00:14:13.580 - 00:14:31.349

uh, the, uh, what was going on in the early years. I started a school at 6 with Mrs. Martha Shores. Mrs. Shores was a very capable teacher. And she too picked up the idea of uh you go to school. Uh, I can remember a man by

00:14:31.349 - 00:14:50.130

the name of, of, uh, Casey, his name was uh Milton Casey. Um, I can remember another lady who just recently passed away, uh, whose name was Zazel Houston. Incidentally, she had a daughter who was about my age, uh, and but of course by this time being

00:14:50.130 - 00:15:06.890

in school, I began to, uh, associate with other children, and I can remember, uh, the names just about of all of the kitties that I went to school with through, um. Uh, grade school, of course, not a big school community for blacks, but, uh, still there

00:15:06.890 - 00:15:23.409

was a camaraderie that existed that kind of gave us, uh, uh, a stay too. Did you have any type of an association, um, with going down to the river and seeing your, uh, since your father was, uh, um, was working on these, on these ships, I

00:15:23.409 - 00:15:39.650

think No, dad never worked on one, his father did. But, uh, his father, as I said, passed away prior to, uh, my birth, so I never had a chance to, uh, uh, do. But on the other hand, I did, uh, yes, uh, the river there in

00:15:39.650 - 00:15:58.940

Saint Louis and it uh. It was, uh, Quite a thing to go boating, uh, that is to ride the pleasure boats, and typical, uh, we had a night for blacks, which was usually a Monday night. Uh, and I can recall, uh, after I got to be

00:15:58.940 - 00:16:14.260

a teenager, 16, uh, and incidentally, uh, prior to 16, it was just off limits to think about going to parties and dances. Uh, you wore short pants and, uh, you, you just knew that when you got 16 you'd be able to smoke, put on long pants,

00:16:14.299 - 00:16:34.659

and maybe go to a, a dance or two. That was the golden golden age. Uh, uh, what classes were you accelerating in in those first years? I had difficulty in school. I, I won awards for penmanship. I won awards for speech, and I might say that

00:16:34.659 - 00:16:51.789

my daddy was quite a speaker and of course, uh, my mother, even though she did not have the, the formal training, uh, also, uh, had a good language facility so we grew up, uh, in an environment of talking to each other and, uh. And talking to

00:16:51.789 - 00:17:10.680

other people, making speeches at church. Yes, uh, my daddy, uh, was a choir director and taught Sunday school. My mother attended, but, uh, because of the limitations she was always there. Uh, she was always the one who, uh, joined with other ladies in baking pies and

00:17:10.680 - 00:17:26.680

cakes and. And uh helping and preparing the dinners and things of this sort and you know, uh, I never paid too much attention to the fact that mother was unable to read, uh, because, uh, it was just a matter of daddy helping us with our lessons

00:17:26.680 - 00:17:48.069

or uh or things of this sort and it just never until, oh I guess I was perhaps 7th or 8th grade before, uh, she, she confided that she couldn't and, uh, but, uh. Yes, uh, uh, as far as, uh, Uh, schoolwork is concerned, I just never

00:17:48.069 - 00:18:08.550

had any trouble. As a matter of fact, I graduated from 8th grade. Uh, at, uh, the old Meachum Park Elementary School, which is now the Milton Turner Junior High School. Uh, as the, the leader of my class, there were graduation, yes, there was a graduation ceremony,

00:18:08.560 - 00:18:27.869

and there were 13 in the class, and, uh, they, it took on all of the aspects and honors that, uh. Larger classes, uh, uh, do now. Have you seen your classmates? Uh, yes, as a matter of fact, there's one who lives here in Kansas City, uh,

00:18:27.920 - 00:18:47.949

right now, uh, a man who works as custodian, head custodian at Southwest High School. Uh, Miller Reynolds, uh, he has a son that's quite active as a public relations, uh, person with the Social Action Committee of 20, and he has, uh, yes, that's William's father, and

00:18:47.949 - 00:19:05.589

he and I have been lifelong friends, uh, uh, since, uh, well, we met, uh, when I moved into the area of, uh, South Kirkwood in the, in the 6th grade. And I might say that the old school over on the other side of town, Booker T.

00:19:05.849 - 00:19:22.109

Washington, went only to the 5th grade. And any black child who wanted to go beyond the 5th grade had to go out to Meachum Park. Were you ever confronted with the, uh, the segregation problem per se at that at those ages? Let's say at the 10th

00:19:22.109 - 00:19:39.599

grade at the, uh, what did you did you graduate? Uh, I graduated from 8th grade grade you aware of the segregation? Yes, by this time I was. And what was your reaction, it was not to like it. Uh, uh, the first time that I really, uh,

00:19:40.359 - 00:20:04.609

became fully aware of, uh, of differences, I think most of us back in those days just accepted the fact that we had separate churches, separate schools, um, uh, separate cemeteries. Uh, we, we, we were not segregated in public transportation. At what point did you did this

00:20:04.609 - 00:20:25.140

to you? Uh, about 1929, I guess. Um, we lived, uh, as I said, on Washington Street. Um, and on that street there was only one other black family who lived right next door to us. And to the east of us there was a a white family,

00:20:25.239 - 00:20:45.439

the Glazier family. James and Rosemary Glazier, uh, were the children in that family. And James uh invited us one Saturday afternoon, my brother and myself, to go to the Kirkwood Theater with them. And of course, uh, when, uh, I went in to tell my mother that

00:20:45.439 - 00:21:01.640

I had been invited to go to the Kirkwood Theater, um. She and Mrs. Glazier got their heads together and none of us went to the theater that day. Uh, we had a big picnic, uh, there in the yard and lemonade and sandwiches and all that sort

00:21:01.640 - 00:21:23.079

of thing. And uh as I began to uh wonder about this, my mother uh in her own way, uh gave an explanation. That uh there were some things in life that uh that I was coming aware of and one of them was that uh in some

00:21:23.079 - 00:21:42.869

activities uh in spite of the good intentions of some of our white friends that the custom of the community just didn't allow it. And one of these was that we just didn't go to school together and we just didn't go to theaters together. Uh, I don't

00:21:42.869 - 00:22:03.520

think it, uh, uh, trying to recall, uh, I've been asked that question before. I don't think it had, uh, any impact, uh, uh, that is if you're thinking in terms of generating bitterness, uh, I didn't like it. And uh I think uh as I try to

00:22:03.520 - 00:22:25.959

recall and reconstruct feelings. Uh, I followed then the, the, uh, the attitude that was generated for us by, uh, Mrs. Wreine E. Brown who was, uh, one of my, uh, teachers at that time, and then later Ruth Cornelius, uh, who was my 6th grade teacher, and

00:22:26.319 - 00:22:47.040

JB Davis, who was the principal of the school and my, uh, 8th grade teacher. That uh by this time, uh, this was of course a little bit later, this was about 1931, 13,030, 1931 and 193932, and uh by this time they were really addressing the subject

00:22:47.040 - 00:23:07.319

of uh of uh what we now know as uh as uh segregation. Um, but their, their attitude was that, uh, the only way to overcome it is to prepare yourself well, uh, not allow it to, to cripple you, that there is, uh, a time coming that,

00:23:07.329 - 00:23:27.589

that we would be able to make a very definite contribution toward change, and, uh, I think, uh, as I went on through, uh, school, uh, almost every class that I was a member of, uh, broke with tradition. Um, I might say that uh we did not

00:23:27.589 - 00:23:45.579

have a high school experience at Kirkwood. Uh, if you attended high school, you had, uh, either Saint Louis, uh, which was the best of the two, the better of, uh, of the school setups, or Webster Groves. Webster Groves is the closest, about 4 or 5 miles

00:23:45.579 - 00:24:06.000

from where I lived. It was about 18 miles by walking and streetcar, uh, to Sumner High School. So by this time, um, it became pretty obvious that, uh, uh, the social situation was uh debilitating, a devastating one. I can recall that I was the first boy

00:24:06.000 - 00:24:24.319

born and raised at Kirkwood. Uh, to graduate from high school with honors and to do it in 4 years, uh, most of them prior to me, uh, had either dropped out of school or they would, uh, go long enough until they could get a job. Usually

00:24:24.319 - 00:24:44.390

the post office was the highest, uh, form of work, uh. There were some who went to work for railroads, the Pullman service, um, I can remember a man by the name of George Davis, uh, who is still alive, who was a great source of inspiration to

00:24:44.390 - 00:25:09.130

me. Um, And I, I did as I said, I went on to school. Now girls went, went on to high school. They, they went into a traditional thing. Where were you in 1929? In 1929, uh, we lived in Kirkwood. Uh, and, uh, at this time, uh,

00:25:09.209 - 00:25:29.849

we were living on West Monroe Street. Alright, the stock market crashed. What happened? Uh, this one, the stock market crashed in, uh, 1929, 1930. Uh, it had a very devastating impact on black families and on my family particularly. Uh, my daddy was attempting to buy a

00:25:29.849 - 00:25:51.130

house and he lost that. Uh, he couldn't make the mortgage payments and, uh, we moved off of, uh, uh, well, um, we moved off of, uh, off of, uh, Washington Street just prior to that because he, he, uh. Thought that he could handle this place where

00:25:51.130 - 00:26:05.439

we had moved it had a nice big lot and uh and I might say that a part of that property now is uh in development of housing and things of this sort uh where white families live. But, uh, we just couldn't, he just couldn't cut it

00:26:05.439 - 00:26:24.510

with your mother and him working. Well, you must realize that in those days the wealthier people who hired domestics, uh, also hit the bottom and, uh, uh, it, it just, it just wasn't possible. And as a matter of fact, we moved, uh, shortly after that into

00:26:24.510 - 00:26:46.560

Meachum Park and, uh, the family just went down to, uh, A two-room shack that wouldn't be as big as this office. Um, how old were you in 1929? In 1929 I was, uh, about 10, let's see. 11 last year in high school. 1936 would be my

00:26:46.560 - 00:27:10.160

last year of 1936 Sumner High School. Sumner High School. How, how old were you? 18 finished at 18 years of age. What kind of person was Dr. Fields, Edward Fields, senior in high school. Energetic, active, uh, a participant, uh, in spite of distances, uh, participant in

00:27:10.160 - 00:27:35.979

what sports, uh, drama, uh, music. Almost all class activities that uh that I could, I sang in the school a cappella choir, uh, baritone. Um, Uh, under the leadership of Walton and incidentally one of, uh, one of, uh, well, two or three of my classmates, uh,

00:27:35.989 - 00:27:55.380

went on to do, uh, quite well. Uh, Kenneth Phillips, you may have heard that name, uh, who had the Phillips Singers and at one time was with the, the Wings Over Jordan Group, uh, Helen Phillips, who, uh, was, uh, an opera singer, uh, who slapped the

00:27:55.380 - 00:28:18.239

face of a Nazi officer. Uh, in France, uh, during, uh, one of her performances there when he cast insults on black people. Um, I might say that, uh, Sumner High School uh lists me with uh uh what it calls its distinguished alumni, along with people like

00:28:18.239 - 00:28:38.290

Doctor Gerard Bryant, who is here in Kansas City, who is a Sumner graduate. Um, with, uh, yes, I did not know him when he was in high school, but, uh, because of his reputation. Uh, having gone through high school, he, he was, uh, yes, I, we

00:28:38.290 - 00:29:00.989

knew a very excellent one, a scholarly one, and, uh, incidentally, uh, he, uh, uh, has, uh, maintained that, uh, atmosphere. Uh, Louis Clymer, who is Judge Clymer now, was, uh, also a distinguished Sumner, uh, alumni. Uh, uh, and I could come on down to some, uh,

00:29:01.189 - 00:29:16.829

no, I did not because they were all ahead of me. Alright, alright, I'm gonna ask you something else. What was your girlfriend's name in high school? Well, now let's see, I'd have to, uh, I'd have to think a little bit about that one, Uh one that

00:29:16.829 - 00:29:34.170

stuck out the most, let's say, don't try to, uh, let's see. I guess the, the one that stood out the most probably was a young lady by the name of, uh, Of, uh, Agnes Parker. Um, could you dance? Oh yes, uh, if you look at, you

00:29:34.170 - 00:29:53.209

look at the yearbook, uh, I was, uh, I was cited for my, uh, my dancing ability. Uh, there was another young fellow in school, uh, uh, also, uh, who was quite a dancer. Uh, I used to, uh, have a great respect for, uh, Fred Astaire and

00:29:53.209 - 00:30:14.359

Ginger Rogers, uh, for, uh, Bojangles Robinson, uh, the tap dancer, uh. Elmer Officer, uh, who was, uh, one of the young men that, uh, went to school with me, was quite a tap dancer. Um, I never was much of that. Instrument instrumentalist who, uh, who played,

00:30:14.369 - 00:30:31.390

um, under the leadership of, uh, uh, Doctor N. Clark Smith. Incidentally, Doctor Smith used to be here in Kansas City, but because of his, uh, musical genius, he decided that the school district of Kansas City, uh, was kind of not quite ready for him. And he

00:30:31.390 - 00:30:43.380

came to Sumner High School in St. Louis. I used to play a little string bass, but I don't think I could do much with that now. Did you play the piano? I did a little bit, but not much. My father was quite a piano player, as

00:30:43.380 - 00:31:03.280

I said earlier. Um, but we had dancers and we had singers, and, uh, and incidentally, uh, I used to have a reputation for, uh, uh, comedy work. Uh, I was, uh, uh, asked by the Municipal Opera, which would be the counterpart of the Starlight Theater here

00:31:03.280 - 00:31:26.140

to. Uh, participate with them in the summer of 1935, but GD Brantley, who was the principal of the school then, said no. And of course, uh, my mother said no and uh and Aunt Pearl said no because, uh, traditionally, uh, many of the young people who

00:31:26.140 - 00:31:44.540

had these kinds of talents getting started in them would leave school and I can't say that I would have left school, but uh I didn't get that chance. What sports did you uh, football and track. I played soccer and baseball. Uh, yes, I, I think, uh,

00:31:44.680 - 00:32:08.500

I think I was pretty good. Uh, uh, I played battalion baseball for three summers at Fort Riley, Kansas. Uh, I beat, uh, two, the, uh, uh, Dashman from, from the Drake relays, uh, at Fort Riley. Um, and, uh, we had, uh, what I thought around Saint

00:32:08.500 - 00:32:25.780

Louis, some, some good sports activities. We played soccer. What did you do for a good time? Um, the good times in those days were, uh, kind of little get-togethers, uh, uh, groups would get together and for 10 or 15 cents' worth of peanuts and jelly beans

00:32:25.780 - 00:32:42.890

and an old Victrola. Uh, uh, they, they would just, just have a, a lot of fun. Uh, I don't think that there was, uh, well, you just didn't do too much of what you call serious dating, but you had, uh, you had a lot of fun,

00:32:42.910 - 00:33:00.430

and, uh, they'd get together in the evenings and, uh, between going to libraries and, uh, and rehearsals that I'd have and. And the sports events that I took part in and other events, for instance, we, uh, our high school sang at the dedication of the Kee

00:33:00.430 - 00:33:22.640

Auditorium, um, the only black group that participated in that, um. I was always a churchgoer, uh, and between, uh, Olive Chapel at Kirkwood, Missouri and Saint James AME at Saint Louis with oratorical contests and things of this sort, uh, Boy Scouting, and I might say that

00:33:22.640 - 00:33:43.479

I have over, over 40 years, uh, of participation in scouting and still active, uh, with the, uh, uh, with the, uh, Heart of America Council which. It was the old, um, uh, Kansas City Area council here in Kansas City at this at the present time, um,

00:33:43.859 - 00:33:57.459

so there were, there were things like this. We used to go streetcar riding, used to go to the park, uh, Forest Park in all of this was in the Saint Louis Kirkwood area. So when you graduated in 1936 from high school, uh, did you rank in

00:33:57.459 - 00:34:17.189

your class? Yes, I was, uh, an honor student, um, a member of the National Honor Society. Uh, I wasn't quite high enough to be a valedictorian, or salutatorian, but right up there against valedictorian, um, the valedictorian, I believe, in our class, um, was a girl by

00:34:17.189 - 00:34:39.989

the name of, um, her last name was Roberts. Well, who's salutatorian, um, a fellow by the name of, um. Uh, George Polk, I believe, or Elliott Gray, I'm not sure. Elliott Gray incidentally is now with the Internal Revenue Services in Washington DC. He was quite a

00:34:39.989 - 00:35:02.770

mathematician. Uh, there were approximately, incidentally, Saint Louis graduated twice a year, a January class and a June class, and I was in the June 1936 class, and there was probably at that time about 100 and. 25 or 30, whites, no whites. All of the activities until

00:35:02.770 - 00:35:22.620

1954 and the education in Missouri was, uh, was segregated. Who was principal? Uh, GD Brantley was principal. Alright, what did you do immediately after high school? Immediately after high school, uh, the big issue came as to whether or not I could go on to school. Uh,

00:35:22.629 - 00:35:43.909

I told you earlier that the family, uh, finances was such that there was just little or no hope. That was in 1929. That was in 1936. Uh, we must recognize that the depression, while it got its start with the crash of 1. 1829, uh, did not

00:35:43.909 - 00:36:05.110

really begin to let up until the beginning of World War Two, which was, uh, I think the first shots were fired at Williams Haven, Poland, I believe about the 1st of September 1939, somewhere along in there. Uh, but, uh, the entire country was in a terrible

00:36:05.110 - 00:36:25.419

state during the 1930s. What do you remember most about the recession? Uh, the depression, uh, what I remember most about it was, uh, was, uh, personal hunger, uh, the family being on relief. I can remember some of the slurs and insults that were passed, uh, when

00:36:25.419 - 00:36:42.879

you got in line to, to get commodities or to have potatoes shoveled into a basket from a truck. Uh, to, to, or to have a piece of salt meat cut, uh, and if you ask for a second piece, maybe you'd get it, maybe you wouldn't. I

00:36:42.879 - 00:37:01.699

can remember wearing a woman's coat to high school because I didn't have any other. Uh, I can remember, uh, that the children who got government issued sweaters, they were 3 colors, uh, kind of a maroon, kind of a dusty tan, and a green, um. Uh, I

00:37:01.699 - 00:37:21.899

can remember, uh, the, uh, the, uh, slip that you used to go get, uh, to get, uh, shoes, um, so I suppose that the, do, do you, do you remember this butter, yes, the Oreo, uh, margarine kind of thing, uh, where you used a kind of

00:37:21.899 - 00:37:39.149

a colored peel to, uh, to, uh, to get the butter color, and I can remember the controversy that developed by the dairy people after that. Uh, the controversy had to do with the, with the fact that the coloring was misleading and that were many people who

00:37:39.149 - 00:37:58.350

were doing this and selling it under the guise of butter. Uh, if it were salted properly and, uh, mixed to the right consistency and color. Uh, it could be cut with real butter, and, uh, uh, in those days it was not uncommon to go to the

00:37:58.350 - 00:38:18.800

store and buy what they call bulk butter where the person, uh, would dip into a, a bucket. Similar to the way that you get ice cream now or you bought lard that way, so, uh, there were instances where, uh, unscrupulous merchants would take this margarine and

00:38:18.800 - 00:38:37.469

mix it with uh bulk butter and, and sell it for butter, and that then came to a point where the foods people regulated it. And it had to be labeled strictly margarine. It had to say what it was, and that label comes right down to now,

00:38:37.929 - 00:38:56.439

although now it all comes, uh, already mixed and cubed in many instances very much like butter, but it has to say, uh, margarine, so I can remember the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, days of the depression, and you might say that even nature was very unkind

00:38:56.439 - 00:39:17.479

in those days. We had the dust storms of the 1930s where a good section of the plains of Kansas settled on Missouri and in the Missouri River. Yes, uh, I can, I can remember those days, uh, quite well, um, and I might say that, uh, just

00:39:17.479 - 00:39:39.649

as, uh, the active mind of that day, uh, knew what was going on, was aware of the hardships. Um, uh, understood that, uh, the only hope and salvation as was preached from pulpits and from podiums and classrooms was that if black people, we weren't called blacks

00:39:39.649 - 00:39:58.840

and we were called coloreds, we were called negroes, if they were to succeed at all, that the only hope was through education, and I believe that very firmly and I've lived to see it, uh, bear fruit. Um, uh, so what did you do immediately after high

00:39:58.840 - 00:40:13.719

school, after high school, uh, with, uh, in spite of the fact that I was an honor student, uh, in spite of the fact that I had excelled in many kinds of things that were supposed to make me a well rounded student, uh, the scholarship opportunities for

00:40:13.719 - 00:40:31.409

blacks were just about nil at that time, and of course there were no colleges, uh, around for us to attend. Uh, through the efforts of, uh, a fellow by the name of Gaines, I, I don't recall his first name right offhand, who was suing to get

00:40:31.409 - 00:40:49.290

into the University of Missouri Law School, and Lucille Bluford, who is now with the Kansas City Call, who was, uh, instrumental in attempting to get into a school of journalism, and a few people like this, uh. Uh, there began through the able leadership at that time

00:40:49.290 - 00:41:12.629

of, uh, a Mr., uh, uh, I, I wanna say Sweets who was the leader of the Kansas City, I mean of the Saint Louis Argus newspaper and other, uh, groups, uh, who were interested, uh, uh, in trying to, uh, make life better. Um, there was a

00:41:12.629 - 00:41:35.110

great push in Missouri, uh, beginning then to, uh, break the barriers of segregation, and, uh, many of us, uh, young as we were at that time, uh, were participating in oratorical contests, the subjects of which were, uh, intended to stimulate us and to, uh, to get

00:41:35.110 - 00:41:55.189

us fired up to a point where we would, uh. Uh, devote some energies to it, and I can remember Jonathan A. Dane still living now in Chicago, who was pastor of Saint James AME Church and his, uh, wife, uh, uh, at that time deceased, uh, later,

00:41:55.649 - 00:42:13.899

uh, and her energies to, uh, to, uh, help us in our work at Saint James. So what did you do after you left high school, uh, so, uh, I then, um, uh. Attended a school that that's what I was getting up to that was organized uh

00:42:13.899 - 00:42:36.310

through aid of the federal government called the Federal Education Administration Program at Stow College. Uh, Stow College was a Saint Louis. Uh, school system sponsored teachers college. There were two in Saint Louis sponsored by the Saint Louis Public Schools, Harris for whites and Stowe for blacks.

00:42:36.790 - 00:42:55.669

Still a very segregated community, uh, at that time, yes, are we talking about? We're talking about 1936, 19397 school year OK. Um, after one year of this, uh, the Saint Louis Board of Education then opened Sto on an experimental basis to young men. Now girls could

00:42:55.669 - 00:43:12.635

go, young black men, young black men, but girls, black girls could go. But, uh, neither of the of the colleges would admit men. However, you must realize what was what was the philosophy that, uh, that, that girls made good elementary school teachers and the school system

00:43:12.635 - 00:43:32.510

was providing itself with elementary teachers. Uh, however, there were several schools for whites. Uh, the, uh, Washington University, one of the finest schools in the country, was open to whites, uh. Saint Louis University down on Grand Avenue, uh, was open to whites, a very fine Catholic

00:43:32.510 - 00:43:45.590

school at that time, I guess you aspired to go to school. Yes, but we knew we had hope, but, uh, we were, they were just closed to it. Well, how long did you? Go to the school in Saint Louis. I went to St Teachers Colleges under

00:43:45.590 - 00:44:01.669

the federal government one year and then under the leadership of the school system one year. How many black men were going to the school? There were about 8 or 10 of us, uh, at that time. Um, Judge McMillan over in Saint Louis, uh, was one of

00:44:01.669 - 00:44:19.689

the students there. Uh, a fellow by the name of Clarence Perry, who became quite a linguist with the United Nations organization was there. Uh, fellow by the name of Sanford Bell, who is a school principal in Saint Louis, uh, was there. Uh, you've heard of Anthony

00:44:19.689 - 00:44:41.229

Holman, who is quite outstanding with the federal agency in Washington, uh, was also there. Uh, one of Saint Louis's prominent undertakers, uh, uh, was in that school. Did you know anyone from Kansas City at that time? Uh, yes, uh, I knew, uh, Doctor Huff and the,

00:44:41.409 - 00:44:58.820

the Huff, uh, brothers. Uh, I had met them, uh, uh, when we played football. Had you been to Kansas City at all? Yes, I had been to Kansas City, uh, uh, every summer and through the fall when we, we participated in sports events and when we

00:44:58.820 - 00:45:14.110

passed through here going to Fort Riley, Kansas. Who did you stay with when you came here, uh, in the summer, uh, when I, when we came to play, uh, sports, we stayed at the old, uh. Uh, YMCA building over on 18th and uh and for sale.

00:45:14.189 - 00:45:31.330

They open for sale YMCA. Uh, and we, uh, of course rode to Kansas when we played over there and then we, uh, played, uh, Kansas City. Do you have relatives here in Kansas City? No, I, I did not have any relatives. As a matter of fact,

00:45:31.510 - 00:45:54.649

uh, as far as relatives are concerned, uh, we have, uh, very few. Our family is, uh, is, uh, not a large family, um. Uh, going back to, um, college, to our college days, after finishing these, uh, two years, uh, I left Saint Louis with, uh, $2

00:45:54.679 - 00:46:12.520

and, uh, I hate to, I like to talk about this on occasion, but then I don't recall it very often. Uh, I left home with $2 and, uh. And 63 cents, $2.23 of that was for train fare from St. Louis from Kirkwood to Jefferson City. This

00:46:12.520 - 00:46:31.540

is make you a fortune and that was, that was to make my fortune, and I Um, took, uh, to a family by the name of HP Loft who lived out on the edge of Jefferson City. He was a prominent lawyer and, uh, a state representative at

00:46:31.540 - 00:46:44.989

that time, and it was customary for, uh, many of our young people who wanted to work their way through school to get on into town a little early. And do it. And here's where the training that my mother had given us to all of her children

00:46:44.989 - 00:47:01.149

paid off. Uh, the first job I got in Jefferson City was cooking for a highway engineer by the name of Walron, uh, down on the Lake of the Ozarks, and I did that over the Labor Day weekend. And, uh, then the very next week, not having

00:47:01.149 - 00:47:18.370

enough money to go to school, I met, uh, uh, Pete Lof and Blanche Lof. Mrs. Lof is still living. Uh, in Jefferson City, and I get by to visit her occasionally. Uh, she's still, these are white people, and, uh, when I told them that week that

00:47:18.370 - 00:47:27.929

I had been over to Lincoln to try to enroll on credit, but I didn't have any money, and they told me there that in spite of the fact that I've been an honor student and all of this that I had to have some money and it

00:47:27.929 - 00:47:49.409

wasn't much then I think $50 and, uh, I just didn't have it, but he put up the money for me and uh I went on to school. Uh, I graduated from Lincoln in 1940 with departmental honors and industrial arts and vocational education, you were good with

00:47:49.409 - 00:48:10.199

your hands. Yes, that's true, that's true. Uh, and, uh, did you play any sports, I, I did not, uh, primarily because of the work schedule. Uh, how did you switch from education to industrial arts? Well, we, you see, industrial arts is an, is an education subject,

00:48:10.659 - 00:48:38.110

and, uh, it should not be regarded as a vocational subject, although, uh, under FC Harriel at Lincoln University and G. Robert Cotton, uh, and, uh, Mr. Taylor, uh, uh. And, um, men of this sort, um. We were able to uh develop uh high vocational skills in

00:48:38.110 - 00:49:04.250

machine shop printing, uh, uh, mechanical and engineering drawing. Uh, art metal and sheet metal along with the regular industrial arts subjects, uh, because of the background that I had, uh, uh, I was a, a student assistant from 1938 to 1940, and that, uh, I considered a

00:49:04.250 - 00:49:22.909

great opportunity to, uh. Uh, to develop skills and management and development skills and, uh, in human relations and classroom techniques and things of this sort. Did you live in a dormitory? No, I lived, uh, out on Greenberry Road, uh, in the home of the people that

00:49:22.909 - 00:49:41.810

I worked for, the los, and I rode a bicycle. We talked about bicycles a few minutes ago. I rode a bicycle to and from school, uh, and, uh, I gave, uh, between school, um. And the job that was about all I had time for. Uh, I

00:49:41.810 - 00:50:00.290

did a lot of side work driving, uh, particularly for Mr. Loft, uh, in and out of Kansas City, Saint Louis. He, uh, had a Buick, uh, at that time it was called a Roadmaster, and I can remember the license numbers on it. Uh, that one was,

00:50:00.300 - 00:50:22.729

uh, 1463 was the Missouri license plate number, and he had a Pontiac. And that one was the license plate was 1791. Why would you be able to recall a license? I guess maybe having to know these because of driving for him. I can recall down on

00:50:22.729 - 00:50:38.429

the lake of the Ozarks area, uh, I had an experience down there where I I got ready to get in one of the cars and And one of the uh fellows down there wanted to know ***, whose car are you trying to steal and that kind

00:50:38.429 - 00:50:56.030

of irritated me and uh I had a chance to meet uh uh one of the uh shore patrol officers by the name of Charles Fleetwood. I'll never forget him, he's white fella there and uh uh he kind of set the record straight. Uh, he took issue

00:50:56.030 - 00:51:13.510

with this white person who made this remark. And, uh, told me that uh you don't have to worry about that, but the issues of that sort, uh, together with an earlier experience that I've had in Memphis, Tennessee. Uh, when I drove a car down for Edwina

00:51:13.510 - 00:51:27.469

Wright, uh, just sort of taught me that, uh, if you know something that, uh, that sort, you can say, well, now, uh, my, the car that I'm driving has this license plate on it, and, uh, this is the, the make of the car and this is

00:51:27.469 - 00:51:48.689

the person who owns it. And uh you just had to be ready to answer all kinds of embarrassing situations uh at that time and uh uh you met this young lady no, uh, I did not meet her until 1945 uh I've been in Kansas City five

00:51:48.689 - 00:52:11.159

years. Incidentally, I came to Kansas City right out of the point. What did you do breaking out the breakout of the war. Uh, 19, the war started in, uh, on December the 7th, 1941. Uh, I was attending a meeting in Saint Joseph, Missouri, uh, at the

00:52:11.159 - 00:52:30.379

time that came on, uh, and I was in the home of a family by the name of Hicklands on Felix Street, and, uh, I don't recall the address and I don't recall Mr. and Ms. Hicklin's name other than that, um. But uh during the war uh

00:52:30.379 - 00:52:48.500

I worked uh I was working for the National Youth Administration of the federal government then and my boss was, uh, Ms. Bethune, Mary McLeod Bethune, uh, who, uh, I worked here in Kansas City. No, no, she was in the national office in Washington, uh, but I

00:52:48.500 - 00:53:08.300

with Roosevelt with Roosevelt and a fellow by a white fellow by the name of Aubrey Williams, I believe was his name. My immediate supervisor here in Kansas City was a man by the name of, of, uh. Owen P Mullennax and uh the area director was a

00:53:08.300 - 00:53:25.889

man by the name of George Sykes, a very tall lanky. Both these were white. Were you exempt? Uh, I had a, uh, a two-way classification, uh, at the very outset of the war because of my skills and the kind of work that I did in, uh,

00:53:25.899 - 00:53:45.719

in war industries. Uh, I was one of the first blacks, uh, put at North American Aviation. That's when, uh, Louis Clymer, uh, I became very familiar with Louis Clymer in those days, and, uh, Carl, uh, Johnson, who for years was a great leader in the NAACP

00:53:45.719 - 00:54:03.540

here and perhaps one of the most prominent lawyers of his time in the state and the first black to be elected a judge. Uh, in this area of Kansas City, who was that again? Carl R. Johnson. Um, now you might talk to, um, men like Louis

00:54:03.540 - 00:54:22.804

Clymer, uh, who worked very closely with him. Uh, you might also talk to, uh, Gerard Bryant, uh, who, uh, worked very closely with him. Well, let me ask you this, uh. When you graduated from Lincoln University in 1940, did you move directly to Kansas City? Uh,

00:54:22.864 - 00:54:45.699

I took an examination which was a competitive examination for the position of, uh, area supervisor, uh, of the National Youth Administration programs here and incidentally they were. Uh, segregated at first, but later they became mixed under my administration. Uh, we just sort of put them together

00:54:45.699 - 00:55:10.520

and, uh, uh, Mr. uh, Mullennax, uh, uh, agreed with the idea and my first program when I came here was in the old, uh, uh, uh, city, uh, center down on 5th Street, um. Uh, the community center down there and later we moved to, uh, the,

00:55:10.530 - 00:55:34.330

uh, area of, uh, across from the municipal auditorium in the old, uh, Lathrop Trade School building which was later torn down. I was, uh, a job placement and a vocational instructor and my, uh, special area was, uh, machine shop and woodwork. And uh uh hiring of

00:55:34.330 - 00:55:51.729

teachers and uh placing young people on jobs, kind of a mishmash of activities uh 22 and uh how long did you do this? I did that for a little more than a year and then when the war broke out in December, uh, we closed that program

00:55:51.729 - 00:56:17.199

out that following, uh, for the most part that following June. Uh, I went to work then for Sumner High School in Kansas City, Kansas, uh, under the leadership of, uh, John Hodge, the, uh, as a vocational teacher, uh, in building trades, um, incidentally, uh, Mrs. Dorothy

00:56:17.199 - 00:56:40.530

Johnson, uh, Herman Johnson's wife is the daughter of, uh, Mr. Hodge, now deceased. Um, that is Mr. Hodge himself is now deceased. Uh, shortly a year after that, uh, uh, the incident that I mentioned, Carl Johnson, uh, Louis Clymer, and others on this matter of fair

00:56:40.530 - 00:57:00.770

employment, uh, challenged Mr. Kindleberger. Who was the president of North American Aviation to hire blacks and the challenge was issued that if we could find, I believe the figure was like uh 15 blacks who can work in machine shops and 15 electricians and 15 of this

00:57:00.770 - 00:57:24.620

and 15 they'd hire them, so I was sent in North American Aviation as a as a as a marine as a machinist and I worked there for that oh that was uh. Uh, maybe. 2 to $300 a month. It was at that time. I was uh

00:57:27.580 - 00:57:49.959

uh what, what impact did the bombing of Pearl Harbor on the bombing of Pearl Harbor on me as an individual, I, I suppose, uh, uh, like many Negroes at that time. Uh, we thought that uh to be in war, we'd rather anticipated it since the war

00:57:49.959 - 00:58:17.020

had started in '39. We'd had some ships sunk by Germans in the North Pacific North Atlantic, uh. All of the activities politically pointed to the fact that we could not remain free from the war for too long. We rather expected it, but because of the successes

00:58:17.020 - 00:58:36.350

that the Germans were having. Uh, we sort of saw this as perhaps, uh, uh, the opening of our shores and our country to actual attack. Now you felt this, yes, as an individual, you felt that type of, you knew that you, you, you had that much

00:58:36.350 - 00:58:54.189

insight into politics. Yes you did. Well, you must keep in mind that, uh, working for the government and, uh, being, uh, uh, 22, 23 years old at that time. Uh, and, uh, and I might say that the depression and the, the kinds of exposure that we

00:58:54.189 - 00:59:12.610

had, uh, aged us, I think, a little bit faster while we may not have shown it physically, I can recall, uh, uh, being referred to frequently as nothing but a boy. Uh, I did not, uh, take on a lot of the physical appearances of being old.

00:59:13.989 - 00:59:32.000

Uh, but, uh, mentally I think most of my crowd, incidentally, uh, uh, of the girl's named way back that I mentioned, Evelyn Roberts was her name, and Margaret Bush, who is now quite active with the NAACP, was also a graduate of Sumner High School and in

00:59:32.000 - 00:59:51.270

my class, um, but I, I would say that, uh, when you look at the kind of people who came along at that time. Awareness of of uh of the impact politically and the kinds of of lives that we were living, uh, the kinds of hopes that

00:59:51.270 - 01:00:10.239

we had and the kinds of efforts that we made, uh, just gave us uh insights uh. And you knew that uh it was just a matter of time uh the draft tempo was beginning to pick up uh were your parents getting drafted around you? Yes, and

01:00:10.239 - 01:00:17.909

uh as a matter of fact, uh, I went to uh Fort Leavenworth myself and came back with a with uh.