00:00:02.880 - 00:00:35.029

Didn't need me, I know. This is Ella Pruitt. I'm interviewing Mr. Fred Carroll Sr. March 11th, 1976. I'm interviewing him at 3108 Chestnut. The time is 6:52. Mr. Curls, could you briefly tell me when and where you were born? Um, it, In 1919, March 31st in

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Kansas City, Kansas. OK, let's discuss something about your parents. Who were your parents and what type of occupations did they have? My mother's name was, Eula Martin, and my father's name was James Curls, and they were, Both lived on farms in Oklahoma. My mother happened to

00:00:59.880 - 00:01:21.760

be up here going to West University when I was born. OK. Do you know the reason for them coming to Kansas City? Was it a, uh, a decision just to move or basically didn't work? No, my Father was still in Oklahoma. My mother came here because

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there was a Western university which was a, was a Methodist. Uh, college or similar to what it would be a junior college. Where girls stayed in and that's what, where, why she happened to be here. OK. Was she a housewife and she was attending college, she

00:01:39.540 - 00:01:50.459

obtained some type of degree or was she just a housewife? No, no. Uh, they were both very young and she was still going to school. Hm. OK. What? My father and my mother was very, you know, she was only 18 years old and was going to

00:01:50.459 - 00:02:13.089

school. Um-hum. Well, what was her occupation or it and also your father daughter and farm. Uh, uh, farm wide. Um-hum. During this time, did they actually have a large plot of land, meaning acres, or was it just living on a farm to get enough food for

00:02:13.089 - 00:02:37.979

the family? No, both my mother and my father had large acreage. OK. Do you know what part of Oklahoma? Yeah. And uh Chelsea, Chelsea, Oklahoma. OK, Mr. Curls, uh, what public schools, elementary school did you attend here in Kansas City, in Kansas City, Kansas. I, I

00:02:37.979 - 00:02:56.339

attended, uh, school, elementary schools here in Kansas City, Missouri. Missouri. Uh, So I went back to Oklahoma and then my school age, I was brought back here. So you actually did at one time you did attend school in Oklahoma also but you did not, you were

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smaller school age age I started here I think was uh. Started at the A's, Uh, And uh about the 3rd grade I've started the WW Yates School. OK, at that time, if you can, uh, recall what type of curriculum were available to, what the, the type

00:03:20.449 - 00:03:39.949

of curriculum available to a school child. Was it basically reading, writing, and arithmetic? Uh, I, I would say so, along with a lot of discipline. OK. Uh, during the, during the time that you were growing up in your mother and father's home, did you attend church

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and if so, what church, what religion? Um, Well, I didn't grow up in my mother and father's home. My, Father, um. Remained in the army, Uh, it's been, uh, Probably about 1922 or 3, he was still in the Philippines. And, uh, I started out with my

00:04:10.220 - 00:04:31.119

mother and my grandfather in Oklahoma. And when I come here, I come here with my mother. And, uh, As to, as to my mother and my father, I have to come in with my mother. Uh-huh. And not my father. OK. And, I went to, uh, a

00:04:31.119 - 00:04:54.760

church. Off of, uh, Kempton Highland. OK. Uh, Mr. Curls, uh, your father was in the service, mean made a career 19 years, you say. No, he, he's about till 1921. So, he was in, he was in World War One. But instead, instead of coming out in

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World War One, he stayed in there and did another tour of duty in the Philippine Islands. OK. And then he come, come back to Oklahoma, stayed a short while, and went to the West Coast and never come back. I see. OK, Mr. Carl, what high school

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did you attend? Lincoln High School. What year did you graduate? 1937. How, how early did you begin earning a living? Meaning a living to support yourself. About 1939. And what did you do? What type of work? I was, uh, Quarter at the Greens, On the plaza.

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OK. Dishwasher. Now presently you are in the real estate business as an appraiser, right? Real estate broker real estate appraiser. Appraiser. How did you come about? That's coming from a quarter to a What you presently are, now that's a that's a huge find there. What happened?

00:06:08.489 - 00:06:39.140

Was there a certain event or certain circumstances that worked in your way? Just how did this happen? Well, I think, uh, circumstances, uh, From that job, uh, admiring greens. Well, to begin with, I started out as, as, as a porter, I admires and cleaning up and,

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They, they had a, a sequence for which uh A progression upward of the job and from the quarter, I went to the uh busboy. And from the busboy, I went to the dishwasher. No, I went to the pot and pans, the, the clean washing pots and

00:07:05.850 - 00:07:26.899

pans. Then I went to the dishwasher. And from the dishwasher, then you become the, Uh, busboy, uh, in the salad department learning how to make salads and things. I did this. And then normally the next uh uh step would be to take you upstairs where you

00:07:27.160 - 00:07:47.709

learn to be a fry cook. Well at that time that. Uh, I felt like that they didn't want me to go up there because I was black. And, uh, they passed another fellow around me and. That, that bothered me. And I let the manager know it.

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Uh, in what way did you, verbally? Verbally, yes, and I'm sure that by my attitude. Uh, he knew what my, what that I didn't like. I just was displeased. I felt like that I was being bypassed. And I think that the fellow. Uh, Trying, I was

00:08:08.920 - 00:08:26.769

in an all white setting, mind you, the plaza at that time. At the plaza. Um, And I really assumed I could do what others could do, uh, naively. During this time, and you were going from, um, a quarter moving on up. Now, as you climbed, say,

00:08:26.839 - 00:08:45.140

up the ladder, was your rate of pay increased? Yeah, it. Do you recall? Very little. It's only in, in pennies. I see. But it was equivalent to what everybody else was getting at that time. Uh, but each step was a monetary advancement of them and certain

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amount of prestige that went with that. Uh, when you, uh, Spoke with the manager. Uh, were you reprimanded in any type of fashion such as being, you know, you can be laid off if you don't do and, and your attitude has become negative. Well, uh, I

00:09:05.659 - 00:09:27.659

had formed a by being at that particular location I got to know. Myron Green himself. And I think they looked upon me as a good worker as such, and Uh The man didn't want to fire me or reprimand me for wanting to move upward, but he

00:09:27.659 - 00:09:42.179

put me in a setting that uh I could probably understand better. He moved to the downtown office where there were lots of blacks. And there were jobs that relegated the blacks and where I can understand the place a little better, I think that was a new

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tip. Without offending me. He gave me the best of a black job at that, at, at that time, so he put me on the freight elevator. Which was a coveted job, but that, You didn't have to work as hard, but that was, that was your job.

00:10:00.289 - 00:10:31.950

The elevator was, Pretty good job, supposedly. And to answer your question, how does this lead to other things. Because of the time that, well, let me go back a little bit there. Um, I The fellow that, uh, I worked under. Um, did not necessarily, Like me

00:10:31.950 - 00:10:49.229

personally too much. It might have been my personality. I don't know. Was this a white man? Yeah, it's a white fellow. But he knew why I was there. He knew why I was being transferred from Mres on the plaza to Mares downtown. And it was, uh,

00:10:49.609 - 00:11:15.489

uh, As an appeasement, and I think he recognized this and say, he didn't really like that. Because he had some fellows, which he would have preferred going on the freight elevator. Uh, this fellow's name is George Ackenhauser. And he had a tendency to, you know, the

00:11:15.489 - 00:11:36.030

fellows that worked with, that he would. Go some and they was clown and. Go through all those gyrations and I really resented it. When he was, and he didn't like me very much. So he managed to get me moved to the bakery department. Where I had

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to come to work at 8, I mean about 43 or 4 o'clock in the morning. And I would work till about, uh, 12:00, 1:00, uh, in the afternoon. And From that job I. Got another job in the afternoon if I had the time. And that job

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was, At an Indian place making Indian jewelry. And I went there initially just wiping off machinery when he was setting up the plant. Of the small factory right on Main. OK. What, what was the name of the, Indian handcrafts. Indian handcrafts. Incidentally, that was when Indian

00:12:22.919 - 00:12:58.799

jewelry just become in vogue. Um. Um, There's a fellow that comes from Colorado that set up a shop here. And He brought with him some, Of the, uh, Pueblo Indians from that area. And He Brought our our so far some Navajo Indians from. Uh, the gout

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reservation. And, uh, We worked together there for a number of, uh, for. I would go into work, I would work at the bakery in the morning and I would go there in the afternoon and work till late at night. Uh, Uh, making it in jewelry and.

00:13:21.080 - 00:13:49.460

Um-hum. Learning the trade. Of cutting stone, the turquoise and touch firewood and and silversmithing. And After about, uh, 6 or 8 months I quit the job of Myron Green and worked for this man full time. And that was in the years about 6, about 30, 9

00:13:49.929 - 00:14:24.099

and 40 up until 41. And I had begun to, I had married, And I had, uh, Three children at that time. No, I had two at that time. And And then I went to, Uh, The pay was not that great. Uh, wasn't very good at all.

00:14:24.929 - 00:14:46.929

I mean. Well, now, what was your, what were the hours? The hours was from about 8:00 in the morning, Till about 10:00 at night. Um, And with time off for lunch. And time off for supper. It's And we made it. Was this a 7 day week

00:14:46.929 - 00:15:16.419

job or. It was a 6 day. We worked about 65 1/2 days at, at those type, type of hours. Uh, They We worked the length of time because while we didn't get paid overtime, we got more money. And, uh, so at that time, it. Made, I

00:15:16.419 - 00:15:38.739

would make a living on what you're doing. Uh, And we worked about 5, we work 5.5 days a week, by, by working, 1010, 12 hours during the week and about half a day on Saturday. And I think our base pay, we were getting around 26, 27

00:15:38.739 - 00:16:07.650

cents an hour. And I worked at this job, Until, uh, some friends of mine. Suggest we go into construction work. And They were going near to where my grandparents' home, Near Oklahoma, so I didn't feel lost. A lot of my relatives were working in, in, in

00:16:07.650 - 00:16:28.489

forests in Kansas. So I went there and started in construction work. OK, by going to Oklahoma now your entire family had to relocate. Or they stayed here? No, my wife stayed here with my mother. In Kansas City. And my wife and my children stayed here. And

00:16:28.500 - 00:16:53.400

I went to a park, Parson's cancer. And worked in the construction work building defense plant, a defense plant there. And Now, was this most, this, uh, was like on the job training? Well. Or had you. No, you started out as a, I started out as a

00:16:53.400 - 00:17:11.410

common laborer. OK. And learning to pick them up and put them down. Uh, whatever someone told me to do, concrete work and so forth. A little, uh, OK. Sideline I guess uh I've been I've worked uh I went to the union hall we got hired out

00:17:11.410 - 00:17:35.069

as a laborer. And, um, they put me to pouring concrete. Well, I had been making jewelry and really my hands weren't very tough because the two are not necessarily compatible. And the fellow that uh was running the the our superintendent he was. Having a hurry, hurry,

00:17:35.130 - 00:17:57.069

hurry, and I was so slow he called me, began to call me swifty. Uh, And after about the third day, my hands were blistered. And, uh, this guy was rushing me and hurrying, hurry, hurrying, had us running, you know, And All of a sudden I just

00:17:57.069 - 00:18:16.180

got fed up and, I took my wheelbarrow of concrete and, Do it and say the hell with it. Uh, the guy come over though, what's the matter, Swifty? I said, man, my hands are blistered and, and you keep rushing me. You know, I used to this.

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OK. So, he, uh, Pretty compassionate guy. I said, OK, go on and take it easy. He told me to go take a shovel and start spreading gravel. And, uh, The guy kind of take, took a liking to me. And ultimately, I become former this guy. Uh,

00:18:37.420 - 00:18:54.849

but I had to get tough enough for that type of work, which I did. And because he showed up, you know, some heart and some compassion for me, I began to work real hard for him. And what was the man's name? Uh, Kennedy. He come with

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the construction company out of Chicago. Now, was this a black man or, it was a white fellow. Uh, And of course, uh, give you a little side light on that, uh, so I become, I became his concrete foreman after some months. And so I began to,

00:19:19.630 - 00:19:47.040

Learn how to say hurry, hurry, hurry for the concrete. And, uh, One, and of course, I had a mixed crew. I didn't really have any problem until one day, Uh, Tall, lanky fellow. Uh, white fellow come up to the crew where we're working. And the fellows

00:19:47.040 - 00:20:07.290

were uh digging a ditch prior to pouring a footing. And uh so he come up from and the former at that time was not allowed to work by the union rules. So, I was standing on the top of the, Ground. The guys are about uh 3

00:20:07.290 - 00:20:25.780

or 4 ft down digging a trench. And he went to one of the white fellas and says, hey, uh, who's the foreman around here? Where's Curls? So the white fellow that he's with, he said, well, there he is up there. And this fellow come over to

00:20:25.780 - 00:20:49.069

me and said, your name curls? I said, yeah. He said, well, let me tell you something, I'm from Arkansas. I ain't never worked for them. To let you know. And I ain't go about starting now. So, I said, well, Well, I didn't send for you, and

00:20:49.069 - 00:21:03.310

you can go back where you come from. So I said, well, that's just what I'm going to do. So he went back outside, tied, checked, turned his time in, and I don't know what happened to him, but that's about the most unpleasant thing, I guess if

00:21:03.310 - 00:21:17.849

I didn't really take it too seriously. I didn't want to work that was his business, and what he thought of me didn't necessarily reflect what I thought of me. What, what, uh, were the reactions of the men around you at that time? Oh, I think I

00:21:17.849 - 00:21:40.599

have formed a good rapport with them, uh, as one human being to another, and I think they accepted me as, as that. And, uh, There was no reaction. Uh, they kept on digging, I guess, maybe laughing to themselves. But as far as any, Uh. Groups action,

00:21:40.780 - 00:22:07.969

there was none either from black or white. OK. Uh, So I stayed in construction work. And while I was in construction work they had a school lane. At uh in Parsons that taught welding. OK. So, I went to this welding school. Um-hum, um-hum. After my job.

00:22:10.439 - 00:22:31.770

And I. After? Yeah. OK. Um, I learned to do, uh, Arc welding And, uh, settling well. Now, was this a part of, I, I'm not understanding. Was this a part of something that they asked you to do? Was it paid for by the company. This was,

00:22:31.849 - 00:22:55.839

you, it's, you're on your own doing this? Right. They, the, I think the program was called NYE. National Youth Administration where they were teaching young people trades and most of it geared to the war effort. And uh they would pay you to learn these trades. Not

00:22:55.839 - 00:23:20.449

much money, but it was a pain. Uh-huh. And, uh, incidentally, I was back on the blood test, too, at that time. And I'll put down the seat and no big sweat. Um, So I, I, I, I learned to weld in part in Kansas. But I, I

00:23:20.449 - 00:23:42.380

knew that I could use the, the experience, uh, If and when I come back, Uh, Kansas City. Because I know I was concerned, interested in in tool and dye, which I got to see when I was working at this Indian handcraft. A lot of the, the

00:23:43.699 - 00:24:06.310

Work was done by tool and dye makers would make dyes and would cut out parts for jewelry. So I wanted to learn to be a tool and dye maker. So, I started there. Which probably get some more things. Well, um. I worked on construction that construction

00:24:06.310 - 00:24:23.479

job until it was completed. And the fellow that I was working for went and got a job in art. And, uh, he wanted me to go there with him, but I wasn't really prepared to go that far away from home. I've never been that far away

00:24:23.479 - 00:24:49.530

from home. Uh, I had developed a hernia. In this period of time, and, uh, I was called up. I had been getting deferments from the army because I had a family. But then they called me up and, uh, To go and then I had this hernia.

00:24:50.349 - 00:25:04.790

They said, well, you go get the hernia fixed and then you can go to the army. I said to myself, well, I just want to get the hernia fixed for a while because I didn't, wasn't necessarily prepared to go to the army because I didn't really

00:25:05.229 - 00:25:27.349

wasn't too carried away with, with it in the first place. Um, So, uh, that, I didn't go to the army, uh. During the war, for that particular reason that I, I had a hernia. So I come back to Kansas City. And I went back to work

00:25:27.349 - 00:25:50.359

with uh the Indian jewelry company and they had grown tremendously during this period of time because there was a big demand for Indian jewelry all over, all over the country. And I became a foreman. For this uh fellow. And my job being, Now, this is the

00:25:50.359 - 00:26:12.430

same, the same owner. Right. That you originally worked with. Right. I don't recall his name. His name was Albert Harris. Albert Harris. Um, he was a Syrian, and he still lives in Kansas City here. Um, And at that time, we probably, the plant probably had grown

00:26:12.430 - 00:26:39.619

to a plant. And we're probably about 50 or 60 employees of course the work patterns still remain the same in that we're working 1012 hours a day, 5.5 days a week. Uh, But I began to, to, to study, Uh, mathematics. Blueprint reading things to, to, to,

00:26:39.819 - 00:27:06.349

to, Become a tool and die maker. And, but the business of, uh, Indian jewelry fell off by 1945. And, um, The, this fellow went out of business and went into another type of business. And I then began to go from one small shop to another working

00:27:06.349 - 00:27:37.670

in working in machine shops and welding shops. Uh, Uh, one of the, uh, Things, the bad things that happened to me. Uh, about a 19, 50 Um, I was sent out, I was out of work. And I went to The unemployment office, or the employment office.

00:27:38.979 - 00:28:05.119

To seek a job and they sent me out to Lake City. As a, as a, uh, Maintenance uh welder. And the employment office here in Kansas City sent me in that capacity. So I went out to the Lake City. And the personnel department, Uh, told me

00:28:05.119 - 00:28:21.150

that they would, gave me, assigned me to, as a sanitation engineer. Well, I knew what that meant, but I was hungry and I had a wife support, so I went ahead and, uh, went, Sweeping the halls for them because I'm making more money than I have

00:28:21.150 - 00:28:39.079

been making even as a machine as far as that goes. But I saw one of my white friends while there who was in the maintenance department. And so I said to him that we'll. High and whatever his name was, I can't recall now. And I told

00:28:39.079 - 00:28:50.400

him that, uh, I was going to be that pretty soon. I didn't have any opening right now that they'd send me over to this department. And of course, he told me, oh Fred, you got to be kidding. uh, you know, they're not going to bring you

00:28:50.400 - 00:29:16.109

over here, which is true. They didn't. Uh, boom. I Was um. The job that they had me on was, uh, General job for work which was all right, so I wasn't opposed to that, but as I would sweep down the aisles I'd passed machinery. A lot

00:29:16.109 - 00:29:36.790

of it that uh I had known how to to to make. And they wouldn't let it, blacks work on it. Um. And, uh. Even though you had the qualifications. Yeah. Right. Uh, and I worked most of it was production machines. We didn't take a whole lot

00:29:36.790 - 00:29:59.660

of knowledge. You learned to make 4 or 5 different movements and that, uh, completed that because they were geared strictly for production already set up. Uh, so I was the building superintendent. And told him, You know, that I was well qualified to work on those machines,

00:29:59.670 - 00:30:17.040

and I didn't see why I couldn't work on them. And it's about 1500 people that worked this particular building that I worked in. Uh, And of course it was strictly, uh, uh, segregated and this guy told me, well, to take what I had and do the

00:30:17.040 - 00:30:39.969

best I could with it. And obviously told my foreman. Of my attitude, of course, my phone was black. So When I come in the next day, my assignment was to pick up cigarette butts out of the sandboxes. And, uh, I had a, Gallon bucket on one

00:30:39.969 - 00:30:54.030

hand with a dipper in it and a gallon bucket on another and I would dip these cigarette butts up and put them in out of these sandboxes and put them in this. In my gallon, in my gallon bucket. So, this was really a demotion. Oh, yeah,

00:30:54.430 - 00:31:16.099

yeah. But what I did, Rather let it Break me down. At that time, lottery was just going, maybe had been declared illegal in our at least to my knowledge in our city. I don't know if it's state or not. And punch boards and things were no

00:31:16.099 - 00:31:37.989

longer to be allowed. Punch boards, I don't understand. Punch boards. That's boards where they would have, uh, uh, you punch like it had, would have, if you punch a number, Uh, and it's uh like a 2905 any number ending 5, then you win so much money

00:31:37.989 - 00:32:02.170

in uh 0 you win so much money. Now these were actually percentage boards. That, uh, if you're taking $100 you would pay back $60. You'd actually earn $40. Now, these are normally, this was used, these, these abortion things were things that were used in drugstores and

00:32:02.170 - 00:32:23.430

these type of places where it used to be, you know, This is part of drugstore business. Uh, games of chances. OK. But they were, but they were all percentage. You know, the owner couldn't lose. Someone could win, but the owner could never lose because the percentage

00:32:23.430 - 00:32:47.489

wouldn't let him lose. Right. So, I went down to, uh, The merchandise place on Broadway where these things are bought and I bought me some. They didn't cost very much, maybe $1.05 because it, uh. And So what I would do I would walk down these aisles

00:32:47.910 - 00:33:05.199

where all these people were and I would have them punching, they would take about a quarter, you know, to punch, and if you, if you got a 0, say you'd win 10 quarters. Or, or if you are or maybe you got if your number ended in

00:33:05.199 - 00:33:28.020

5, well you get uh 5 quarters and if you got 00. Then you would get 20 quarters, uh, this was the way that though. I would go up and down the aisles with people within 1500 people in this building. And heck, I would probably punch out

00:33:28.020 - 00:33:45.560

a board a night. So I make about $40 a night, uh, with my trash can and and so I just got really discouraged by trying to worry about the job. And, uh, I Uh, so I told my foreman, you know, what I was doing. He could

00:33:45.560 - 00:34:05.040

see what I was doing. So I said, look, uh, I'm going to give you, uh, some of this money, so you just keep the heat up off of me. So, really, I did that, uh, uh, for about 6 months. And I was really getting well. But

00:34:05.040 - 00:34:18.699

the other guys on the job, they was complaining because I know, I really got cocky, which was bad, but that's true. Um, I was going to work and I wouldn't even tip to do any work because before it wasn't going to bother me now. Because he

00:34:18.699 - 00:34:45.188

was getting something. Yeah. Right. So, I was just going about selling my punch. And Anyhow, uh. I, they finally fired me and I probably deserve being fired, but they fired me. Uh, because I wouldn't. I wouldn't, I wouldn't work at all. The And then I went

00:34:45.188 - 00:34:59.419

to, uh, go to General Motors to get a job, and I couldn't get a job. Then all of a sudden I could see that by my own personality, I had to go to work for myself because I was having trouble working with other people. And that

00:34:59.419 - 00:35:19.679

was about 1952. And I had had Uh, uh, some experience over the years trying to sell insurance, so I got to learn a little bit about that. And, uh, I've been, uh, some of my friends were just getting into the real estate business. And I helped

00:35:19.679 - 00:35:37.070

them work with them a little bit. I began to understand a little bit about that. And a friend of mine just opened off Alzala. Uh, who had worked for, for Bob Williams, he had just opened up an office. And uh in his home on twenty-seventh Street

00:35:37.489 - 00:35:54.429

and he asked me to come work with him, well, which was fortunate for me because. I could work personally with him since he, I was the one working with him, and he could show and teach me the things that he knew. And because we were, Uh,

00:35:54.649 - 00:36:13.699

on a seller's market. Because we had had a strong, uh, buyer demand for housing because blacks were just then beginning to move. Out of the structured areas where they had been for so long. Oh, OK, you're talking about, I've heard, uh, people speak of the area.

00:36:13.850 - 00:36:37.090

Yeah. Yeah. OK, so I met you. Uh-huh. Nice meeting you. The areas, uh, say back past 27. Right. Right. We were just beginning to move out and some of the things that caused that movement to take place, Was The restrictive problem. That had held neighborhoods intact

00:36:37.090 - 00:37:00.969

for so long was being challenged in the courts. And it was known legally that it wasn't going to be upheld. Why at this time, uh, was it being challenged? Is being challenged primarily uh it see as putting the white sellers in some locks. The law had

00:37:00.969 - 00:37:32.080

read that. Uh, That if a seller sold his home to someone. Uh, with, uh, African blood. And it wasn't really restrict, uh, restricted African blood. In some cases, said Jewish and Italian blood. Um-hum. That, that homeowner, would suffer a monetary loss. That's what the restrictive cover

00:37:33.060 - 00:37:46.429

did. Monetary loss, I mean if I sell my house to you, and I am a white person and you are black. Right. Uh, my home is actually valued at 20,000. I couldn't sell it to you for that. Yeah, you can sell it to me for that.

00:37:46.439 - 00:38:10.479

That's up to you. But you could be sued by your neighbors. For letting you in that neighborhood. Yeah. Because when that subdivision was built 20 years prior to that, Uh, that. OK. That clause was inserted in that deed and everybody bought those properties, bought them under

00:38:10.479 - 00:38:33.100

those conditions. That these homes were not, were not to be sold to blacks. And If they did, then they were subject to sue. More and, and, and, and the neighbors would recover monetary damages so that's what caused. Families not to be able blacks not to be

00:38:33.100 - 00:38:50.459

able to move in. Nobody told them not to move in, but there were restricted covenants in the deeds that the owners. When they bought, that's the condition which they bought these properties under. Do you have any idea what uh how are the person responsible of her

00:38:50.459 - 00:39:21.239

sons responsible for setting up this type of cloth? Sure, it was, uh, it was uh. An outgrowth of what took place. In the late, uh, 1800s. OK. Uh, Where we begin to have, uh, Structured and orchestrated, uh. Surrogation. So, it's a, it's just was a continuation

00:39:21.239 - 00:39:50.260

of Continuation, OK. Um, So, but during that period of time, you see white. With this built up housing market. Uh, white families found themselves unable to sell. Even though they had buyers ready with a label. Which kept them from buying. You see, FHA had come along

00:39:50.260 - 00:40:15.860

during that period of time. And began to build upon the periphery of our cities, subdivisions. And the train was to the suburbs. Uh, through FHA, through, through our own federal government, we have begun to build up on the periphery of our cities. And make the buying

00:40:16.520 - 00:40:37.290

for those individuals uh easy in as much as the down payments were not that severe and the trend had been had had had begun to the suburbs. Uh, so these families that were in some of these areas wanted to sell. These white families wanted to sell.

00:40:38.100 - 00:40:57.760

And they were getting locked in with their own restrictive color. So this, it wasn't because that. People just wanted to make it easy for the blacks. They had made it that built up something that was also detrimental to whites. And so this is why there's gonna

00:40:57.760 - 00:41:24.979

be contests and of course, of course we'll run into a changing tempo a little bit in the in the in the society too. But this happened about 1972. Uh, So the we were beginning to blacks had began to move into the Santa Fe area. And they

00:41:24.979 - 00:41:47.500

began to cross, uh, Indiana, Uh, And much of it was older homes and people, uh, are, were able to get, uh, High prices at that time for properties that normally that they had had trouble moving in some earlier years but guys are coming back from the

00:41:47.500 - 00:42:05.530

army with money. People have been living uh quite rural areas into our cities. And uh we were we're just busted the seams and no place to go. We would put a person under contract and sometimes we have missed 4 and 5 people on one house to

00:42:05.530 - 00:42:20.429

buy. All we had to have was a house for sale because there's 4 or 5 people ready to buy the average house. So really it didn't take much talent real estate wise. You just have to be a good order taker to sell houses. And we were

00:42:20.429 - 00:42:43.239

able to, uh, due to the fact that the realtors at that time. Had a clause in in in in their code of ethics that stated that a real tar, which at that time was Lily white. Would not sell. Uh, house to a black unless two blacks

00:42:43.239 - 00:43:03.310

already live in that block. So, The market was not being serviced by whites. There was no competition. So as blacks, all we really had to do for real estate just be there because the white real estate company would call to us because of those that were

00:43:03.310 - 00:43:20.969

realtors would call to us and tell us that they had a seller that wanted to sell a house. So that that sell they could sell sell another house. Because they, because of their own code of ethics, could not sell that house for that, for that seller.

00:43:22.330 - 00:43:40.669

Uh, so we would form teams with white realtors that was getting listings of white homes and they would call them to us. We would sell these homes to black people and they in turn would sell the white seller a home but that was the only way

00:43:40.669 - 00:43:59.340

they could uh get that white seller with money to buy a home. Uh, so from a real estate, black real estate, uh, point of view, it was in our favor. Uh let me ask you this. Sure. Uh, as, uh, the black community or the black people

00:43:59.340 - 00:44:19.969

began to move into the different areas, whereas maybe there were, uh, Say within a block of 7 different homes. There were 6 white families and 1 black family moving in. Was this a natural motivator for the white people to get on up and get out of

00:44:19.969 - 00:44:39.270

here because the black people are coming? Very definitely. And of course, at that time, honestly to you, both white and black, used their tactics. Uh, a real estate brokers, that is, when I say scare tactics, we didn't intend for it to be scare tactics tactics as

00:44:39.270 - 00:44:58.750

such, but we knew that's what would happen. For example, uh, I would sell a, a, a, a home. And I would automatically know that the family on each side would uh was in the market to sell. And I would deliberately call that family and tell them

00:44:58.750 - 00:45:10.840

I had been, I had the pleasure of servicing with so and so and so and so. I think that she was satisfied if I could ever be able to service you, let me know, and it wouldn't be long that they would let me know. But one

00:45:10.840 - 00:45:32.550

of the things that we have to kind of keep way in the back of our mind, That the trend, uh, moving up and out. The color factor is just part of that trend, uh, part, part, part of that motivation because it's a normal tendency, uh, period.

00:45:33.860 - 00:45:51.540

Uh, true. At that point in time, these same people was ready to move anyhow, in many instances. But because of that clause at that time. Yeah, right. They're locked in. Um-hum. Uh, and all they needed was a little stronger motivation and they break all barriers. And

00:45:51.540 - 00:46:15.830

this is what was happening. Uh, but I've come to see over the years that the tendency. To move out Is And upward. Is, is not only present in, in, in white, it's in present black too. Um. But getting back and kind of bringing you forward as

00:46:15.830 - 00:46:43.139

to what, What took place and how to play. We would In 1954 we were we were we were locked in earlier because the only school that the kids went to was Lincoln. So therefore we had to sell houses in close proximity to Lincoln High School. Prior

00:46:43.139 - 00:47:08.760

to 1954, so it wouldn't do a white family any good to tell me they got a house at uh 63rd and 5th and then because the black family couldn't hardly use it if they had school children. So the school situation caused the the black community to

00:47:08.760 - 00:47:41.129

be locked in. Uh, to a large degree. By 1954 when the. The school, uh, desegregation went into effect and Central began to integrate. And the grade schools begin the end of grade. Then we have another mass exodus of light. Because, uh, now when they didn't, they

00:47:41.129 - 00:47:57.879

would run away from integrated schools, even those that had come to accept their black neighbor. Was having trouble accepting. Integrated schools. Yeah, it was a different situation, whereas I'm living next door to you, but my child is in the same classroom with your child. That's. Yeah,

00:47:58.149 - 00:48:18.520

that's right. It's. And that caused another mass, a mass exodus. But at that time we still had a strong uh buyer demand. And of course that just accentuated the movement because for seller wanted to sell here was poor folks ready to buy. And there was bidding

00:48:18.520 - 00:48:42.810

upward, running the price up. Uh, So this caused uh a strong tendency of people to sell uh over and above the school desegregation. Over and above the blacks moving in as neighbors and over and above a strong monetary incentive to sell. A lot of people, you

00:48:42.810 - 00:49:01.899

know, was sold and sold in mass. One of the things in looking back when we look, when we think in terms of the deterioration of our inner cities any time we have. Such mass, uh, displacement of people over a rapid period of time in which these

00:49:01.899 - 00:49:26.139

things took place. You automatically tend to destroy, uh, whatever the, Equilibrium that you had because it moves too fast. Uh, you don't get it, you, you, you don't set the pattern before you. Uh, the pattern is not set. People would buy in the neighborhoods and buy

00:49:26.139 - 00:49:47.820

in because of neighborhood tranquility. That had been established over a 20 year period of time or a long period of time. And when that neighborhood changed hands in probably in some cases a year or 18 months to where you've got uh 500 new families. That, uh,

00:49:48.399 - 00:50:11.459

do not move into what appeared to be a fixed pattern but coming in with a, a wide diverse patterns of their own then uh the whole tranquility changed and this happened to inner cities all over the country. But getting back to the south, I guess, uh.

00:50:12.739 - 00:50:33.590

Now, as an appraiser, Now, you said you first started out, when you started out, this was with, uh, Alan? Right. And that was a real estate broker and salesman. I started with him as a salesman. As a salesman. And then in 1955, Uh, I integrated 31st

00:50:33.590 - 00:50:50.800

and. Chestnut where we are now. Whites were all around here. In this building? Right, in this building and all, no, I, I had a house next door and an office where Doctor Lewis's building is now. Uh-huh. Uh, it was a little office when I first got

00:50:50.800 - 00:51:09.310

it, and I built it larger and had a large staff of people as sales. Because the market was conducive to this, had probably about 15 people that sold out of there, uh, but as I said, there was a big market in this uh immediate vicinity. Whites

00:51:09.310 - 00:51:14.229

were moving out. Blacks were moving in, and blacks had money they were moving in.