00:00:01.690 - 00:00:24.889

Today's date is September 27th, 1976, and I'm interviewing Mr. Harold L. Holliday, uh, attorney. Uh, good afternoon, Mr. Holliday. Good afternoon. Uh, first of all, uh, can I have your full name, please? Harold, H A R O L D. Lee, L double E. Holiday. Wow. H

00:00:24.889 - 00:00:49.580

O L L I D A Y. All right, where were you born? Muskogee, Oklahoma on the twenty-eighth day of June. 1918. To your mother? Was it. Uh, James S. Holiday? And Elijah. Bell, from where? Where was she from, first of all? My mother was born in,

00:00:50.909 - 00:01:14.419

Paris, Texas, that is. On a farm somewhere around Paris. Around Paris, Texas. OK. Um. And my father, I'm not sure. Do you know the location of the farm your mother was born? Um, you know. Um-hum. Um, What's, she went to Mississippi. From Texas. You know approximately

00:01:14.419 - 00:01:37.190

what year that was? No way. How many brothers and sisters do you have? One sister. What's her name? Isola Ori. Uh, presently, her name is Richardson. OK. Uh, and how old is she? She's, uh, so, uh. Well, is she older than you or, or younger? She

00:01:37.190 - 00:02:03.139

is, uh, She's 59. She's 60. Hey. She'll be 60 in, on December 12th, December 12, 1916. Older or younger sister? She's older. OK, and your father, um, Uh, give me a little bit more information about him. Uh, where was he from? Well, uh, my mother met

00:02:03.139 - 00:02:27.139

my father in Muskogee. No, and you follow. He's at Oklahoma. And uh that is where they were married and they left Ufaa and went to Muskogee, where my sister and I were born. Um, Was there a d. My mother, huh? Was there a midwife there? No,

00:02:27.360 - 00:02:54.220

we had doctors. OK. Do you remember what the doctor's name was? Lambri, I think. Black doctor? White doctor? Black doctor. Um-hum, yeah. I got my birth certificate and I got my passport. So, it's all on there. Um, uh, Well, my father and mother, uh, didn't get

00:02:54.220 - 00:03:24.649

along too well in Muskogee. And my mother, Separated from my father and came to Kansas City where she had two brothers living. Marybelle. And Arthur Glisted. Uh, Mary, Was a full brother of hers, and Arthur Gillespie was a half brother. She had, my mother had two

00:03:24.649 - 00:03:44.009

full brothers and then one half brother. What was your father's occupation in, uh, uh, in Muskovbie? My father, I don't know, but my father, uh, followed us to Kansas City. And he and my mother were reunited here. And he, uh, from the time he came to

00:03:44.009 - 00:04:00.110

Kansas City, he became a barber. Now, whether he was a barber in Muscogee or not, I'm not sure, but he was a barber all the time he lived here in Kansas City. Do you remember the address, the, the, the initial address here in Kansas City? Where

00:04:00.110 - 00:04:28.260

I live? Uh-huh. When they moved to Kansas City. We lived, yeah. Where, where we lived when we first came here. First came here. We lived with my uncle, Murray, Bell, and that address is 33, Something open. Kansas City, Missouri. Um-hum. Yep. And how long did you

00:04:28.260 - 00:04:45.859

live at that resident? Oh, we didn't live there very long. We moved. Up the street from him. Um-hum. And that address I don't know, I know a messed up cause he lived there all his life. What was your age when you moved to Kansas City? I

00:04:45.859 - 00:05:08.209

was about 1. Going on 2. OK. And how long did you live at that first address? Not very long. I don't know. I really don't know. I know we came and lived with Mary. That's the way you do it, you know. You don't have any place

00:05:08.209 - 00:05:25.799

to live, so you live with your relative. That's how you get here. Um-hum. Cause your relative is here. So, we can't live with her, but I would say probably a week or two. Um-hum. And then we moved in a house on, uh, Thirty-third Street, right up

00:05:25.799 - 00:05:52.549

the street from where M lived. And we live there, what approximately? Oakley. Um-hum. And we lived there. That's out in the Leeds area. These numbers. And we lived there for about, uh, I'd say 3 years. At least Dunbar. No, it's that house. 00, OK, it's that

00:05:52.549 - 00:06:18.329

house. Then what happened? Um, Where did you move from then? Then my mother, uh, decided that she was going back to Oklahoma. Yeah We went back to, we went to Depew, a little town called Depew, Oklahoma. Um-hum. And you were 4 years old. That's where I

00:06:18.329 - 00:06:32.230

learned to read. You were, you were 4 years old. I was 4 years old. And you learned to read when you were 4. Yeah. Where in Depew did you learn how to read? At the little old school there in Depew, up the hill from where we

00:06:32.230 - 00:06:48.179

lived. Remember the name of it? Oh, it was just a little old, I, I bet it was called the Depew Colored Folks school. Is that what it was, it was like there? Yeah. OK. Yeah, it was a school, You know, in Oklahoma. And those days might

00:06:48.179 - 00:07:08.920

still be now. Well, in the rural areas. Mr. Holiday, you, you know what segregation is. What was segregation at that particular point? It was completely segregated. In Oklahoma, everything was segregated, including, uh, trains. Busted. Everything. What about Kansas City? Kansas City never had a segregation of,

00:07:09.010 - 00:07:34.049

uh, trains and buses. Um-hum. Public vehicles, you know, streetcars. All right, back to. But we had complete segregation of schools. And of course, uh, segregation and. Hotels, restaurants, all places of public accommodation, black, blacks weren't permitted to them. Um-hum. Except those that were openly blacks, you

00:07:34.049 - 00:07:51.440

know. Um-hum. All right, at that time, do you remember who the teacher was that taught you how to read? No. I remember how I learned how to read, though. Um. Cause, uh, they laughed at me. All the kids, I said I was in the first grade.

00:07:53.760 - 00:08:15.720

My mom, my mama said I was in the first grade. I was 5 years old. You was 5 years old. I was 5 years. Um. I went to kindergarten in Kansas City. At 4. Um-hum. They will let you in. At 4. Uh-huh. My mother was working.

00:08:16.690 - 00:08:36.460

Let me say that uh My mother and father were reunited in Kansas City, but Uh, they lived together about two or three years after they came here and then my mother divorced him. They separated again. Uh-huh. And my mother divorced him when I was 4 years

00:08:36.460 - 00:09:06.030

old. And this is when you went back to Depew? No, we were still in Kansas City at that time. Um-hum. And then we, uh, I went to kindergarten. And our, my kindergarten teacher was, Um, Mrs. Jackson. Ophelia Jackson, Ophelia Jackson. Who is Elmer C. Jackson Jr.'s

00:09:06.030 - 00:09:29.869

mother, a lawyer in Kansas City, Kansas. You know Elmer C. Jackson Jr. Uh-huh. I know. Ophelia Jackson was his mother and she taught me in kindergarten. Um-hum. Could your mother and father read? Oh, yeah. Yeah, my, my mother. Uh, it was in 8th grade. Graduate. My

00:09:29.869 - 00:09:47.289

father probably went to the 5th or 6th grade, something like that. Um-hum. They never, neither one of them had any problem reading. My mother, as a matter of fact, uh, gave some thought to going to normal school. Where? After she, in Oklahoma. Um-hum. After she finished,

00:09:47.419 - 00:10:14.489

uh, the eighth grade. But uh my mother. Mother My mother's father, of course, died. Uh, When my mother was quite young, I don't know what age. And my, my, uh, my grandmother remarried. My grandmother was married 3 times this period. To Gillespie and to a Belle

00:10:14.510 - 00:10:33.450

and to the last man that she married. Whose name I don't recall right now. Is your mother still alive? Yeah. How old is your mother now? 83. What, what, OK. All right. At, at, at the age of, uh, 5, you were going to Jackson School, right?

00:10:33.630 - 00:10:59.059

At the age of 5, I went to Oklahoma. De Pew, and went to their little one-room schoolhouse. Right, what recollection do you have of the schoolhouse itself? Oh, it was, I, it wasn't a one room schoolhouse. It was a, Three room schoolhouse. The first grade and

00:10:59.059 - 00:11:16.520

the primer grade was in a little building and then there was a larger building for the other grades all. Wooden structures. With outside fridges and so forth so. Um-hum. And how long, how long did you go to that school? Stove in the middle of the Florida.

00:11:17.090 - 00:11:36.289

One year, one term. One term? Um-hum. Then what happened? We came back to Kansas City. And you attend what school here? Dunbar. We went back to, Went back to, uh, the Dunbar area, that's where my Two uncles lived. Did your people have a garden and all

00:11:36.289 - 00:11:54.380

that kind of stuff out there? Yeah. We had a garden, had chickens. Try to raise chickens. How, how, how, how, how many people was up there but at that particular time where in Dunbar, Lee Dunbar, more people than live there now, mhm. Lea Dunbar was, uh,

00:11:56.219 - 00:12:16.690

A fairly heavily populated area at that time. They had, uh, possibly, uh, 250, 300 kids in school. Why did black people go to, go to Dunbar to live? My mother selected Dunbar because it was rural. Uh, the leagues area at that time had no sewers, sidewalks.

00:12:17.739 - 00:12:44.020

Streets paved streets, um. Or the, and, uh, people lived in houses and they could have gardens and they could raise chickens and things and, uh, she felt that, uh, Uh, since she, uh, would have to work, that we children would be in a safer environment by

00:12:44.020 - 00:13:01.799

living in a semi-rural area than we would by living in an apartment or someplace downtown. Um-hum. I mean, what kind of people lived in the Dunbar area at that time? Poor people. They were poor people. My first, the first house we lived in had two rooms.

00:13:02.640 - 00:13:18.099

Um-hum. Uh, shotgun rooms, you know, if you know what a shotgun room is, that's uh two little rooms, one behind the other. You look in the front door and you look out the back door. And one room was a kitchen and the other room was a

00:13:18.099 - 00:13:36.210

living, dining, and bedroom. I suspect we ate, uh, in the kitchen, however. I don't know. The other room was the living room and the bedroom and one room was the kitchen and dining room. Um-hum. And there was my mother, my father, and us two kids who

00:13:36.210 - 00:14:00.690

lived there. Now, my real recollection of things, however, uh, uh, began when I was about 4 years old. I can't tell you too much about what happened, you know. Um-hum. 2 and 3. My, I don't ever remember. Uh, except vaguely. Uh, daddy being at home. I

00:14:00.690 - 00:14:19.650

remember, I know daddy lived for some time after they were separated and I knew daddy well. Um-hum. Before he died in 1928. Um-hum. And, uh, you can recollect all of his features and things like that. Um-hum. And know he used to come around. He used to

00:14:19.650 - 00:14:43.450

come out and visit us. Um-hum. Um, when he and mother, uh, got a divorce, he moved downtown. Um-hum. And we stayed out in Leeds. Um-hum. And, uh, when we came back from Oklahoma, We came back from Oklahoma, And I had, uh, my 6th birthday, And, uh,

00:14:44.429 - 00:15:07.650

Toast. On the way back to Kansas City. We stopped in Tulsa to see my cousin who was a, who was a big Baptist preacher there named Josey Owens. What's your? He was pastor at that time of the First Baptist Church in Tulsa. OK. Big brick church

00:15:07.650 - 00:15:30.130

with a balcony. Is it still there today? No. First Baptist Church was, Urban Renewed or something like that, that particular structure. He built that church, incidentally. Yeah. And, uh, when we were there, they were in the process, I remember of, of building the baptisserie, which is

00:15:30.130 - 00:15:50.809

the baptismal pool which was to be in, which was in the basement. And uh what religion was it fell into it. Baptist. This is Baptist, alright. Was your mother a terribly religious person? My mother was a highly, very religious person. And she was originally a Baptist

00:15:50.809 - 00:16:10.340

and when I was about 4 years old, she was converted to the Church of God in Christ, which at that time, everybody referred to as the sanctified church. When were you baptized? I've never been bapt well, I was baptized at a Presbyterian. I never joined any

00:16:10.340 - 00:16:27.510

church in the, in the sanctified church, you could not do so by, uh, saying, OK, I'm a member, you know. You couldn't just walk up and shake the preacher's hand. You had to go to the altar and, and pray and get happy and have fits. You

00:16:27.510 - 00:16:50.690

had to speak in tongues and so forth and so on. And, uh, every time, uh, you know, they had an altar call, almost, not every time, but very frequently, I had to go to the altar. To be prayed through. And they never did primary school. And

00:16:50.690 - 00:17:08.459

you couldn't be baptized in the, uh, sanctified church, you know, unless you had faith. Well, what I mean, what were you doing between the ages of 6 and 10? Uh, what school were you attending? Dunbar. You did it all at Dunbar, all of it. What kind

00:17:08.459 - 00:17:25.329

of a, a student? Except for the one year that, uh, Uh, I was in, uh, Oklahoma. I went to the first grade, In Oklahoma. Remember your teacher's name? It's the kindergarten and the I did the kindergarten, yeah, I know all my teacher's names. I did the

00:17:25.329 - 00:17:45.040

kindergarten at, uh, In Oklahoma. I don't remember that teacher's name. I mean, I did the kindergarten in Kansas City under Miss Jackson, Ophelia Jackson. I did the first grade in Oklahoma. I don't remember that teacher's name. I did the second grade, In Kansas City under a

00:17:45.040 - 00:18:07.479

teacher named Anderson. Miss Anderson, I don't know who's principal then? Uh, John Ross. Well, this is a good one. At that age son is the boy that stands down here and run this Administration is on 95 in Saint Louis. Uh, my 2nd grade teacher was Miss

00:18:07.479 - 00:18:26.180

Anderson. I don't know where, what happened to her. My 3rd Who, who is your best buddy right now? My best buddy right then was a guy, a kidney. And, when I was in the second, First, when I was in 2nd grade and 3rd grade was a

00:18:26.180 - 00:18:49.040

kid named Jackson, James Jackson. He lived down the street from you or something? Uh James lived, Well, yeah, he left, 23 blocks from here. Um-hum. But uh we were in the same grade and we became. Yeah. When you catch the phone, please have to step up

00:18:49.040 - 00:19:15.739

for a second. James was You said what about James? James was sort of, uh, what we thought was, at that time was a little rich boy, because, uh, his father died in World War One. and he always got a pension. How much was his pension? I

00:19:15.739 - 00:19:31.339

don't know, probably $50 a month. But it wasn't enough to do a little bit better. Well, he always, you know, he got a pension. Nobody else got a pension. Well, what, what, what, what, what was your, your, was your mother doing right now to make a

00:19:31.339 - 00:19:49.949

living? Um, It was um. it. My mother was separated from my father, I was divorced from my father, yeah, before we went back to Oklahoma when I was 5 years old. She, what was she doing for a living right now while you were in the 6

00:19:49.949 - 00:20:09.989

or 7th grade? She was, she washed clothes in private homes. Um-hum. That's what she did all of her life till she quit working about 20 years ago, 25 years ago. But she went to the white folks' home. Um-hum. And washed and ironed their clothes. Well, what

00:20:09.989 - 00:20:30.699

area of Kansas City was this that country club. The plaza was a country club area, right up the hill from the plaza, Missouri side, before you get to Johnson County. Now she see the Johnson County was just opening up. And all of the rich folks lived

00:20:30.699 - 00:20:48.760

in the country club area, which was the area south and west of the plaza. Mhm. And they still, and the old rich still live there. And that's between uh the plaza and about uh My Circle. Well, let me ask you this, when did you, when did

00:20:48.760 - 00:21:08.660

you finally come over into the city, the city proper anyway? Never. Well, we lived in Leeds all our life till I got married. Mhm. Uh, uh, all right, what year did you graduate from, from Dunbar? 31. 31. Were you a pretty smart fella? Yeah, I guess

00:21:08.660 - 00:21:37.170

they thought I was in, in Dunbar, yeah. I was about to say, uh, John Ross, the principal of the school, died. Was killed by a streetcar. When I was in the third grade. And my 2nd grade teacher, Mrs. Tarwater. He lives in Chicago now. And my

00:21:37.170 - 00:22:01.770

3rd grade teacher, I was in the 3rd grade at the time, Mrs. Eunice Baycock, be present, who still lives here and just retired as a teacher a few years ago. And, uh, The, uh, I'm joking. Mhm. And the 3 of them ran the school till the

00:22:01.770 - 00:22:20.810

principal was appointed. Mhm. That was a big job, you know. Mhm. Principal of. Did you get to teach any classes while you were there? No. I was a student. I know a lot of kids, though, uh, uh, uh, well, when was it, about what year was

00:22:20.810 - 00:22:38.130

it? 30s. Well, I was in the 3rd grade. No, this is in the 30s. 00, OK, OK, OK. Uh, well, where, where did you go to high school then? Lincoln High on 19th and Tracy. Was it called Lincoln High? Yep. Uh, when I went to school,

00:22:38.329 - 00:22:52.349

it was Lincoln High was the only high. We didn't have a junior high, nor, nor was Coles. Coless took over the old Lincoln Building when Lincoln was moved to Woodland. Now, how did you get from Dunbar to Lincoln in a streetcar or walk or hop a

00:22:52.349 - 00:23:19.430

truck? Uh-huh. How long of a walk is that for you? Oh, That's a long way. From 19 and crazy to 34th and Colorado miles. How many miles? Mm. I don't know, but, uh, it was walkable. Hm. How much does it. We used to walk in the

00:23:19.430 - 00:23:35.000

summertime from out there to go down to the parade where to go swimming. Just for the fun of it. So, it wasn't anything, you know, we didn't mind walking and then we'd hop a truck, uh, steal a ride on the streetcar, jump through one of the

00:23:35.000 - 00:23:54.010

windows or something, you know. How, how, how much did it cost to ride a streetcar from there? Uh, two for 15 cents. You'd get two tokens for 15 cents. Transfer. That's a round trip and transfers were always free, you know. Um-hum. We rode the 31st Street

00:23:54.010 - 00:24:20.219

streetcar to Woodland and got on the Vine Streetcar, Vine Street, little dinky streetcar. Uh, how did you, what did you do to make money then? To earn money, 15, um, I had an uncle. And I was about, 8 or 9 years old, I guess. And he

00:24:20.219 - 00:24:48.930

had an ice wagon, wagon. He had a horse. Mhm. And a wagon. We used to deliver ice around. Leeds area. And, uh, he would hire me in the summertime. I made $3 a week. One of the best salaries I ever got. Working for my uncle. He

00:24:48.930 - 00:25:10.579

was very generous. Um-hum. In his day. What did he have, uh, mules pulling a horse. He had a horse, one horse. Um-hum. Mhm. Um, um, were you athletic at all, um. I'm laughing at. A kid I met over to the doctor's office there the other day,

00:25:10.670 - 00:25:39.849

Edmund Brooks. OK. On the football team, and he was asking me did I play and, Uh, I weighed 100, And 18 pounds when I graduated from high school. And I went out for football. On different medicine. I think Cliff is still teaching, I was. It was

00:25:39.849 - 00:26:04.010

cold. Mhm Uh, just laughed at me, man. I said, 00, homeboy. What, what, what, what were you like 4 years of high school? Now, I, now, you remind me fantastically of your son already, doc. You know, what were you like in high school? Oh, I wasn't.

00:26:06.050 - 00:26:30.030

Anything outstanding in high school. I got a transcript of my high school grades. They were mostly Ms. That's a C. You grade your E, S, M, And now. And my high school grades were mostly C, uh, very interesting. Who, who, who were some of your buddies

00:26:30.030 - 00:26:53.859

that, that, that, that, you know, I might know right now around the city while you were in high school, those four years in Lincoln? I don't think there are any that, uh, You would know. Uh, my, my best friend, uh, during my high school days, Was

00:26:53.859 - 00:27:18.819

a kid named John Ross. He lived in Leeds also. Then there was, uh, another good friend of mine. I, well, let me see. I wouldn't say John was my best friend exactly. Uh, from time to time, Uh, we had friendships. I guess my best friend was

00:27:18.819 - 00:27:42.479

a guy named Adolphus Shelton. Sheldon left here and went to Texas, so a long time. His folks died and they left and went to Texas to live with some other folks, John Ross and a kid named Maurice Freeman. Now, oh, John and Maurice are both dead

00:27:42.479 - 00:28:01.900

now. I don't know where golf is. I haven't heard from golf for a long time. Uh, his sister was my first little sort of girlfriend. We started in kindergarten together. Um-hum. What's her name? Odessa. Yeah. It wasn't a real girlfriend, you know, was a kid and

00:28:01.900 - 00:28:17.560

crap, you know. Um-hum. Well, what, what kind of things did you all used to get into, you and your, you and? Everything, man. Everything. We stole, we broke windows for the fun of it. Now, people had gardens out there in Leeds and some had some rather

00:28:17.560 - 00:28:33.890

extensive ones. And sold stuff from them. They had raised enough still. We never did have any extensive garden. We just moved out a little backyard. Um-hum. But there was plenty of open land out in Leeds at that time. What were you during the, during the Depression?

00:28:35.810 - 00:28:58.829

Um, 00, in the way of work, you mean? Um-hum. No, we shine shoes. I shine shoes. Where? Twenty-seventh and Jackson. Twenty-seventh and Jackson. That was all white folks country then, you know. You say what? That was all white folks country then? Yeah. What was on twenty-seventh

00:28:58.829 - 00:29:13.589

and Jackson? Just the barbershop. You remember the name of it? No, no. No, I don't. I, uh, worked at two barbershops. One was on twenty-seventh Street and the other one was on Jackson. That one on Jackson was, the guy that ran that one on Jackson is

00:29:13.589 - 00:29:36.760

named Gaines. I believe. I worked there for some time, and then an adult, a man came and took my job. Cause he took your job. Um-hum. Took your gig. Yeah, he was, you know, he was, A hustle, you know, he knew more about shining shoes and,

00:29:37.319 - 00:29:55.770

and was more. You know, put on more, you know, he went over to customers and, uh, made over them and acted a fool and carried on, you know, and they just loved him and I was, No. Sort of ***, you know. I ain't played with white

00:29:55.770 - 00:30:12.119

folks, never did. Never did. No. How much did the shine cost? Dime. Dime? Mhm. How did you like shining a white man's shoes I didn't it worth a damn. Uh, matter of fact, uh, ho, the truth is, that's when I decided to be, to go to

00:30:12.119 - 00:30:34.709

college. When you shined shoes. For them to say, hey, Rastus, come over here, boy, and shine these shoes. But this is Missouri, right? Yeah, this is Missouri. Sure. I mean, then I worked for Crown Drug Store. As a bicycle delivery boy, we all did that in

00:30:34.709 - 00:30:51.439

those days. I. Did you know McKinley Neal at all at that time? I didn't know. No, McKinley wasn't here. Um-hum. But, uh, Uh, That was, uh, Job I did. Um-hum. And that was about the best job you could have, man, if you got up to the

00:30:51.439 - 00:31:12.560

point where they, where you wore uniforms, some of those guys wore uniforms. Green, green uniform, you know. 00, yeah, it was something else. I'll use. You may buy, when you got the uniform, You'd make about $12 a week. Um. Status symbol. Yeah. Green uniform. Yeah. But,

00:31:12.699 - 00:31:32.930

man, delivering. Did you have a uniform? No, I never got to that. And I got fired there also. Reason was, uh, I guess, complaints. I was, you know, when somebody make a joke, you know. Um-hum. I'd laugh at it about me, you know. Um-hum. And they

00:31:32.930 - 00:31:47.280

did all the time. And not only that, uh, uh, uh, working with the crown man convinced me, you know, I, I could not make a living in life working, doing that kind of work because you were, you also had all these bogger suggestions, you know. Um-hum.

00:31:47.369 - 00:32:04.469

Hey, boy, how much you, you take, if you suck my feet up, you know. Um-hum. But your appetite is crap. Oh God, man, I was so bad, I didn't know what to do. But, uh, I never jumped on anybody or cursed anybody out, but I gave

00:32:04.469 - 00:32:26.150

them the look to let them know that I didn't appreciate it. And of course, uh, What, what, what was his crown forty-seventh and truth. Most of what I work for. Where were you, um, um, at the breakout of World War II? I was at the, The

00:32:26.150 - 00:32:49.280

breakout of World War Two, that was December 14th, 1941. No, World War II started. Who were you the bombing of Pearl Harbor? December 14th, 1941, I was at the University of Michigan. What, what, what do you. Is that right? No, it wasn't. You ain't coming. Well,

00:32:49.430 - 00:33:13.380

let me get this right now. When did I get it, Uh. Yeah, well, no, I was here. I was in Kansas City. I was in Kansas City. The draft had started. The draft had begun, that's what it was. I was drafted first in February of '441.

00:33:13.849 - 00:33:31.959

I was at the University of Michigan. Well, where did you go to undergraduate school? Lincoln University, Jefferson. All right, um, um, how many years you been down there? 4. You did 4 years. How'd you go? Huh? How did you go? How did you go? Who paid

00:33:31.959 - 00:33:56.109

for it? The summer before I went. you got to know these things. The summer before I went to, um, The, uh, Lincoln University, uh, John Ross, fellow I mentioned. He died just last year incidentally. He may have been this year. I did. Not very long. Was

00:33:56.109 - 00:34:20.559

in the wintertime. It could have been in December or January. Um-hum. Anyway, John Ross and I, So vegetables. I was talking to John's brother. Just past Sunday. Who lives in California now. And he was talking about what a change had come over the area. We used

00:34:20.559 - 00:34:49.469

to sell vegetables there, which was, Uh, the area is generally between 31st Street. And 35th Street from. About Jackson to prospect. White ***. It was all white. And very nice too. Um-hum. It was very nice. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Matter of fact, my mother worked for a

00:34:49.469 - 00:35:08.770

lady who lived at 3 in Indiana for a long time. Remember her name? Um-hum. Lions, sure, I remember because they had a boy named Willard. who was my age, we went to college together. And she got fired when the old man found out about it. When

00:35:08.770 - 00:35:23.409

the old lady found out about it. Yeah. So y'all was going to the same college? No. What? But going to college. I'm going to college. He, he went to Park College. They were Presbyterian. Um-hum. And they, he was a big man in Southeast Presbyterian Church. Um-hum.

00:35:24.510 - 00:35:36.639

And it was in a frame structure at the time, uh, my wife, my mother worked for them during most of the time that she worked for them. And when they found out. They were in the process of raising money to build this brick church, which is

00:35:36.639 - 00:36:00.040

up there now. Um-hum. Which they finally got enough money to build this brick church. Um-hum. Yeah, and when, They found out that I was in college, she got fired. Mm. She told him. I was in college. And they didn't believe it. She said, well, they go

00:36:00.040 - 00:36:22.949

to school, they figured, Some kind of little warning, The structure that we call colleges, which is the way most of our colleges started. Um-hum. And some are gone. Came to Lincoln University, came through Jefferson City. And and visited the college to see what kind of college

00:36:22.949 - 00:36:43.489

it was, and that's all we came for. Mhm. And of course, he being white, they gave him a royal treatment, you know. The ***. Was he somebody? I mean, he was president of Chapman Dairy, a dairy company here at the time named Chapman. He was president

00:36:43.489 - 00:37:01.100

of that outfit, but uh That age. Um-hum. Um-hum. I mean, he was, you know, making a living, but. Um-hum. But they fired your mother behind. And when he found out that I was going to a real genuine accredited college, they told him all about the school,

00:37:01.199 - 00:37:16.350

you know, and showed him all the classes. And I showed him all the buildings, we got this brick building, this is the department of this is the this is the dormitory, this is the this, and this is the that and our teachers have these kind of

00:37:16.350 - 00:37:40.520

degrees. They went to these schools. Yeah, when he heard that man, he said, get that damn woman out of here! So what impact did that have on you at that age? Uh, did you? Sure, I understood very well. Uh, my, my mother still thought highly of

00:37:40.520 - 00:38:02.909

them. My mother built a house. A little four room house out in Leeds. She do this, washing clothes? Yeah. My mother was a giant of a woman. I mean, a giant of a woman. My mother would have been a millionaire if she. Are you saying personality

00:38:02.909 - 00:38:29.830

wise? I mean, and her, her strength and determination, foresight, uh, Uh, and principles of life and what she taught us and instilled in us. Uh, I don't know, I don't know if I've ever met a person. With her strength of character and her knowledge, undoubtedly, man,

00:38:29.909 - 00:39:05.510

a brilliant woman. And so forth. Anyway, she decided to build this house and she built it. For almost nothing. We, uh A house burned. At 17th and Tracy. Old house, a house maybe 100 years old. And she bought the remains. Mhm. $25. And uh she hired

00:39:05.510 - 00:39:23.139

a man together with me. Um, to tear that house down. I'm about, uh, 11 years old. Were you a big fellow? You weren't about 100 and something. No, I wasn't big. Um-hum. But I could, I, I had, I could, you know, uh, knock down a 2x4

00:39:23.139 - 00:39:42.770

and knock out the nails, had square nails there. It was so. You never saw a square nail. Um. That's square meal. Excuse me. And we would, uh, Uh, to bring, uh, a wagon. We had a, a horse and wagon. The man that did it had a

00:39:42.770 - 00:40:04.169

horse and wagon. Um-hum. And we'd bring a wagon load of that lumber home every day, and I'd work all night knocking out the nails. And classifying stacking the 2 x 4s over here, the the 1 x 6s over here and so forth and so on. Anyway,

00:40:04.560 - 00:40:23.149

the Lions loaned her $300. To complete that house, the people she worked for who fired her when they found out I was in college. They loaned her $300 to finish that house or to get it in shape for her to move in. We didn't finish, she

00:40:23.149 - 00:40:40.090

didn't finish the house for years, and finally she finished it. Uh, while I was in college, the house, the house was built when I was still in grade school and it was finished when I was in college. Uh, and they let her have it without interest,

00:40:40.129 - 00:40:51.770

and she thought they were the greatest people in the world. They came out and looked at the house and they saw she wasn't building nothing but a hut. I said if she'd been building a real house, they wouldn't have loaned her her $300 but they thought

00:40:51.770 - 00:41:12.270

they were being great white folks because a nigger's entitled to live in a hut, you know. Went outside toilet and so forth, so. Uh, OK, but as soon as they found out that a *** was trying to be the same thing as they were. They decided

00:41:12.270 - 00:41:32.909

it's time to get rid of that ***. *** got too big idea. Mama never did see it. She still thought those people, R 4. Two dates that I didn't get from you is, number one, when did you graduate from high school? 35. OK, in 1935 and,

00:41:33.030 - 00:41:56.879

and from undergraduate school then. 39. All right. What type of, uh, of a, Of a person was Harold Holliday in, in, at, at Lincoln University. Oh, you're a serious student. I would say that at Lincoln University, uh, Uh, I decided that when I finished Lincoln University,

00:41:57.000 - 00:42:10.239

I would have to be on my own and support myself and my family if I was going to have one. And I was going with a gal at that time that I was kind of fond of. I thought it was, I was kind of fond of.

00:42:10.320 - 00:42:36.820

What was her name? Hmm? What was her name? Georgia. Georgia Hollins. When you when you when you met her? I met her, Well, she and I started going together. My senior year in high school. Um-hum. From Kansas City? Yeah, she lived at 2300 Lydia. Still in

00:42:36.820 - 00:42:53.540

Kansas City now? No, I don't know where Georgia is. Bless her little sweet soul. I sure would like to see Georgia too. Alright. So what, what were you doing while you were those four years in college or really? Oh, I was a son of a bitch

00:42:53.540 - 00:43:27.659

in college, or, uh. You know? I was doing a whole lot of things and, I guess. Um, Did you play, you pledge, right? Um-hum. Did you pledge in undergraduate school? Oh, yeah. Well, I was, I'm an omega. I, I. Fraternity. Um, I, um, I was, uh,

00:43:27.750 - 00:43:43.070

on the newspaper, wrote for the newspaper. I was sports editor to begin with. That's what I wanted to do, cause I always wanted to be an athlete and I couldn't be that, so I said I'll write about it. OK, I wrote, uh, so, I wrote, uh,

00:43:43.129 - 00:44:10.300

sports editor and then, Later on, I decided I'd be, uh, Columnist, sort of a political commentator and analyzer, so I wrote a column called Politics. And it was concentrated primarily on campus politics. Um-hum. Um, who was your favorite 19 instructor. Oh, BT McGraw. What did you

00:44:10.300 - 00:44:44.399

teach? Economics. That was your man. Uh, yeah, BT McGraw. Next to my mother. Was, uh, the most influential person in my life. Mhm. BT McGraw, Was the first teacher I ever had. He told me that I had an exceptional ability. And could go and do whatever

00:44:44.399 - 00:45:06.179

I wanted to do. What year were you? Sophomore. Um-hum. He was a PhD from Harvard. Hmm. And I figured if Booker said that, he must know. He must know. Did that inspire you to get up. Oh yeah, at that point? Oh, I was up already, but

00:45:06.179 - 00:45:25.659

I was an outstanding student in economics, of course. Is that what you, is that what you, uh, I, my major. Your undergraduate major is economics. Yeah. And my master's degree is in. Hmm. I went to, After training under McGraw, McGraw said you, you, you're capable of

00:45:25.659 - 00:45:43.169

going anywhere you want to go. And you'll do as well in any university in this country, he told me, as I did at Lincoln University. You'll do as well. I've taught you. How many times. And I went to the University of Michigan. Which, In one of

00:45:43.169 - 00:46:08.879

the really great universities in the country, if you know anything about universities. Probably, uh, the, the best of the, Public The financed universities in the country with the exception of the University of California in Berkeley. Let's come to University of Michigan, I'd say. Harvard and Yale,

00:46:11.330 - 00:46:29.659

Probably hit them Chicago. Maybe be ahead of the University of Michigan, but not far. But, uh, but it's, it's certainly ranks among the top 10 universities in the country, no question about it. I went to the University of Michigan from Lincoln University. My friend, And I

00:46:29.659 - 00:46:45.500

enrolled three weeks late. I got my master's degree in June. I went there in October. Hm. I just had to stay here and work. I was working. I stayed out of school one year to work to accumulate a little money so I could go to the

00:46:45.500 - 00:47:02.679

University of Michigan. And I had to stay here until I got my next paycheck. I couldn't leave until I got my last paycheck. Um-hum. OK. From the crown? No, I was working for the welfare department. I finished Lincoln, you see. 00, you were working the welfare,

00:47:02.870 - 00:47:24.080

the state welfare? Yeah. Um-hum. Um-hum. Who was your supervisor the state welfare at that point? Mildred Richardson. A black woman? Yeah. OK. Yeah, Tony. How are you? OK. Yeah, Mildred Richardson, yeah, she still lives. How, uh, were you at all involved in local politics up to

00:47:24.080 - 00:47:53.040

the point in life? Uh, Were you cognizant of. At, at Lincoln University, The game's decision, you know, the game's decision. Involving, uh, a kid named Loyd Gaines in the University of Missouri. Came down. If I'm not mistaken, it was 1938 when the Supreme Court decided on

00:47:53.040 - 00:48:28.770

it. Incidentally, The Gaines decision was argued. In the state Supreme Court. Uh, A black lawyer named Charles Houston. Out of Washington DC. And Sydney Redmond. A lawyer out of St. Louis. Sydney Redmond was local counsel. Charles Houston was the general counsel for the NAACP at that

00:48:28.770 - 00:48:50.830

time. And he argued the case, which I attended, and that's when I decided I would be a lawyer. Charlie Houston. What year were you then? I was about a junior. Um-hum. In college. Charlie Houston. was absolutely brilliant and devastated. He was a son of a bitch,

00:48:50.909 - 00:49:09.760

man. He made those white lawyers look like fools. I mean. Did you get to meet him? Yeah, I met him. He was that good. Oh, he was out of sight, man. No question. I don't know. What's the best attorney you've ever seen? Charlotte Houston. He's the

00:49:09.760 - 00:49:31.439

best. I believe he's the best, man. Hasty was related to him. Judge William Hastings, who became judge of the Court of Appeals. Thirdgo was still a kid. Mhm At Howard University, Charles Houston served as Dean of Harvard Law School in various sub legal capacities around the

00:49:31.439 - 00:49:54.750

country, a Harvard lawyer. So was hasty. Uh, Thurgood, of course, is a Howard lawyer. He trained under Hastie and Houston. Houston Hastie taught at Howard, yeah, and was Dean there at one time for a short time. Uh, Houston died young. Years ago. And my evaluation of

00:49:54.750 - 00:50:14.520

him may be exaggerated because of my first contact with him. Uh, you know, as a very, uh, unknowledgeable person about the law, but, uh, so far as I'm concerned, the greatest black lawyer in the past century was Charlie Houston. Uh, but you say, you say that

00:50:14.520 - 00:50:35.560

was the reason why you decided to, to, uh, go to law school, but you left Lincoln University and went right in, right on the, in the field of economics. Yeah. Why, why was this? Because law school took three years. A master's took one. And I didn't

00:50:35.560 - 00:50:58.469

have sufficient funding to do 3 years. So I decided that I would get a master's and get better employment and save money. And get my law degree. Later on. Where, where, where, I mean, where did you want to go? The law school? Um-hum. Oh, man, you

00:50:58.469 - 00:51:38.699

know, Harvard. That's the best. Um, Why didn't you go to Harvard? I never was able to. Uh, when I, uh, finished, when I came out of service, rather, My intention was to immediately, I go to law school. Yeah. I, um, Apply. To the University of Chicago.

00:51:40.000 - 00:52:03.689

Chicago being another great law school. May be as good as Harvard, but Harvard has a better reputation and so forth. But Chicago is excellent law school. Uh, uh, how did you Chicago Law School, you know, attorney General of the United States now. And is probably the

00:52:03.689 - 00:52:21.379

most brilliant attorney general we've had in a long time. Yeah Uh, how did you, uh, what, uh, get into the military? Drafted like everybody else. He was drafted. You're damn right. You think I volunteered. Do you, do you, do you remember the date you was, do

00:52:21.379 - 00:52:38.060

you remember the, the date that you was drafted? You know when I went in. I know when I went in, I went in on September 26th, 1942. Right before the war. Yeah, what was going on. Well, uh, yeah. Where, where, where were you stationed? I went

00:52:38.060 - 00:52:52.080

from here to, uh, Fort Leavenworth. That was our induction center, and we stayed around there for a day or two and then we went on, I went to, uh, Camp Shelby, Mississippi. They put us in an, uh, they put us in a railroad car and pulled

00:52:52.080 - 00:53:18.229

the blinds and told us not to look out. Yes, sir. And the train traveled and traveled and traveled and I decided it was going south, and that's where I'm going, somewhere south. And when it stopped, it was in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. OK You stopped using it. Oh,

00:53:18.350 - 00:53:50.060

so, so tell me about Hattiesburg, Mississippi. Harsh. I don't know whether anybody will believe this or not. But I'm telling you, it is the truth. My mother told me, If I went south, not to leave the post. Cause you had this attitude anyway. Right. She says,

00:53:50.149 - 00:54:19.800

***, you will sure get killed. They lent you for sure. You're always talking, you don't like white folks. I had an uncle, Arthur Gillespie. That I admired a great deal. And he was the only. Person in my family. That I think I want it to be

00:54:19.800 - 00:54:42.199

free. Really, my mother. Went along with white folks. And then more or less, I would say accepted her place and, you know, kind of. Played up to him, though she wasn't what you would call exactly an Uncle Tom, but she, you know. Um-hum. Kind of played

00:54:42.199 - 00:54:58.010

up to him a little bit to get a few little crumbs here and there, you know, a little survive favor here. Uh-huh. A nice Christmas gift there. Um-hum. And, uh, she played the job well enough that she got, Remembered in one of her people's will for

00:54:58.010 - 00:55:11.659

a small sum of money, about $2000 something like that. And she gave the rest of it to cats and dogs. She was worth over a quarter of a million dollars when she died, she gave her mama two and gave the rest of them to cats and

00:55:11.659 - 00:55:39.560

dogs. I know. How's that, man? That really that really loves you, isn't it? That loves the hell out of you, doesn't it? You know. cats and dogs. That's right. So, what happened? What did you do down there? Uh, I stayed on the post. For about two

00:55:39.560 - 00:56:05.949

months. It got too solitary there and I finally decided I was going to, Take my chances and had it, but I won't have it, Looking for a little, uh, And so I started going in, but on Christmas Day. This is what I want to tell you.

00:56:07.239 - 00:56:21.649

We went to the black section of Hattiesburg, the USO. Picked up dates there and went on to their place or someplace, you know, and then went on back to post. That's what we did when we went in there. I never went uptown. I don't know what

00:56:21.649 - 00:56:35.969

up, you know, the white folks part uptown. I don't know what that looks like. Stayed out of it. Um, we just went there and I knew. I got off, we got off the bus and started to the US saw a ***, a black man, was laying

00:56:35.969 - 00:56:57.070

in the gutter of the street. There, there. We inquired around and they said, uh, Had given some lip to a bus driver. And the bus driver killed him, kicked him off the bus and went home. Uh, this is what, I didn't see this happen, but this

00:56:57.070 - 00:57:13.399

is what they said happened. And you know bus drivers were armed. In the South. They carried a pistol on their hip just like a cop. And that's for the purpose of being sure that you keep your damn seat on that bus, you know, which is in

00:57:13.399 - 00:57:29.500

the rear. Um-hum. And so. Just carrying pistols at that particular time. Yeah. When you, as you rolled in the rear of the bus. Yeah, the bus driver was on. All right. Now, how did, how did this, how did this hit you? The band was laying in

00:57:29.500 - 00:57:53.620

the gutter in front of a funeral home. And I said, you know, why don't somebody take him in the funeral home, and everybody said, you know, I didn't happen. Pay attention. I went on to the USO. He was, the USO was about a block down the

00:57:53.620 - 00:58:17.820

street. Was, was he a soldier? No, he was a state. We went on to the USO. Stayed down there until, Dusk, um, about dark, you know, I got in there about middle, midday, around 12 o'clock. Hot, 80 degrees and better on Christmas Day. Beautiful country, Mississippi.

00:58:18.860 - 00:58:37.129

Nights, full moon, oh, it's beautiful. Wrote my wife that if it wasn't for the white folks down here, I'd live there. This is the most beautiful country I've ever seen. I went to the USO. And when I came back, the man still in the gun. It's

00:58:37.129 - 00:59:13.510

been there all day. In front of you. Nighttime came, they picked him up. And in came. A carload of MPs, white, who we had never seen. Uh, black MPs patrolled the area. But here comes a uh uh several dozen white MPs. Mm. And they came down

00:59:13.510 - 00:59:40.639

the street hitting people just indiscriminately. Nothing had happened. They just jumped out of their buses and start beating up on people. And I just prayed, That they didn't hit me. Oh. See, because here, That's where I die. One of those motherfuckers hit me with that club.

00:59:41.800 - 01:00:02.830

And I haven't done a damn thing. I've been in the USO all day. Um. And nighttime came, we came out to get drunk. Although Mississippi is a dry state, was a dry state. Plenty whiskey. We came out to get some whiskey. Didn't drunk. Here come these

01:00:02.830 - 01:00:25.790

cups. Beating people on the head. Fortunately, They didn't touch me. You get your buddy? No, we didn't get hit. They couldn't hit everybody. The streets full of people. Mhm. And then that night, When we went to get on the bus, uh, they sent a bus for

01:00:25.790 - 01:00:31.899

us to bring us back to camp, you know. Um-hum. Military people did. Um-hum. After,