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This is Ella Pruitt. I'm interviewing Isaac Gardner Jr. He is a school psychologist for the Kansas City, Missouri school district. I'm interviewing him at his home on February 16, 1976. His home is located 3216152 Brighton, Kansas City, Missouri. We'll begin the interview, uh, focusing primarily on

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Mr. Gardner's early childhood life. Mr. Gardner, will you tell me when and where you were born, a little about your parents, their backgrounds, where they're originally from, and what brought them to Kansas City, Missouri. Well, I am a native of Kansas City, Missouri. I was born

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in Whitley Hospital on a Wednesday evening. September 26, 1934 My father hails from. Center Point, Texas. He was a chef for the MKT Railroad for 45 years. My mother comes from Dalton, Missouri. And she was a registered nurse for approximately 25 to 30 years. Do you

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have any idea why your parents moved here to Kansas City, Missouri? Well, uh, I would imagine because the, uh, chances of I mean of uh employment. For blacks back in those days, as poor as it was, was probably much better in an urban area than it

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was in a rural area. OK, dealing with your, uh, early education, what schools did you attend, elementary, junior high and high school, and where were they located? Well, I began my education at Winder Phillips Elementary School on 24th Street, Terrace, and Vine. Uh, and, and in

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the 3rd grade I was transferred to Booker T. Washington on 24th and Prospect. I attended Booker T for 4 years and then Went to RT Coles, which was the only black junior high in Kansas City at that time. Attended Cole's for one year and then moved

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up to Lincoln High School. Located on 21st and Woodland. OK, Mr. Gardner, uh, in our preliminary interview, you told me that in the elementary years. You were living uh close to another school but you had to walk to a school which was a farther distance. What

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school was the school that you were attending and why? What reason were you walking so far to go to another school? The school that I was attending was Wenda Phillips. I lived a block. And a half. Down the street from Irving School, which later became Booker

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T. Washington. And the reason I would have to walk so far. was because of Kansas City at that time did have a segregated school system and blacks and whites were not allowed to attend schools together. OK, what type of classes were available to you and how

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do they compare to the classes of today? Did they have art, music, and PE, uh, just what was the basic schedule for an elementary student at that time? Well, there were no distinct art and music classes as such. Uh Those special chores were handled by the

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regular classroom teacher. We did have At very best, a minimal PE program. And the PE teacher came around about once a month and we engaged in activities like climbing the poles and ropes and gym or we Went outside on the playground and, you know, took part

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in outdoor games. OK, usually when people hear of PE that kind of makes me think about recreational activities. What type of recreational activities did you have outside the school system? Were they, uh, sponsored by a certain group? Were they sponsored by your church? We, uh, Recreational

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act uh activities outside the school uh. Primarily a do your own thing in the neighborhood, you know, uh, there was very little in the ways of, uh, scouting, but we did have some scouting. Uh, Other organizations like they have today uh were almost nonexistent. We did

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have a YMCA program that Some of us took part in during the summer. But a fee was attached to that, so that eliminated a lot of black children. Uh, we had one swimming pool, the cell swimming pool located at 7 people in the cell. But getting

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into that pool was a hassle. Yeah, you had to Almost have gang fights every morning to get inside the swimming pool. OK, Mr. Gardner, you graduated from Lincoln High School in 1952. Where and when did you continue your education and how was it financed? Well, The

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4 years of undergraduate. College work were divided. Uh, between two schools, uh. I spent alternating years at the University of Michigan and Howard University. And my education was financed entirely by my parents. OK, uh what type of reception did you receive at the University of Michigan?

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uh, did you find the, uh, instructors there, uh, a more challenging as far as far as the instructions that they were giving giving you or did you find yourself feeling that you were behind in what they were teaching or trying to teach you? Well, it was

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obvious from the first day that I I was in a race where I was, uh, Sort of handicapped by a 50 pound weight on my back. Um, many of the students I had to compete against were Not inherently bias that I was, but uh. It was

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obviously to the head. A better preparation than I had. Many of them had had. For example, uh, math through capital in high school, 2 years of chemistry and 2 years of physics. Uh, after that, Some of the white kids were then. Enroll in a prep school

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for an additional year. Prepare them for college and uh. It was just tough going to try to compete against kids with that background. What type of housing, uh, did you have at the University of Michigan? If you were in a dorm, did you live mainly segregated

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with another group of black students, or was it an integrated dormitory or maybe off-campus living? Well, uh, And there was very, very little off-campus living, uh, available in Ann Arbor, Michigan. So, uh, most of the blacks at that time did reside in the dormitories, uh, however,

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Um, well, the dormitories were integrated. But most of the blacks Uh, either had to live in a single room as I did, that's much more expensive, or if you had a roommate, it was definitely a black roommate. There was no, uh, black and white, uh, students

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living together in the dormitory. What type of activities were available to you? What type of extra activities, like outside, maybe, uh, on the weekends, fraternity sponsoring different events and things like this? Did you ever attend any of those? Oh yes, uh, as a matter of fact,

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I was even Given a bid to join a fraternity, uh, the fraternities, you know, simply go down the freshman roster, uh, not being aware of color and ethnic background or anything like that, and, uh. There was a knock on my door one day and These white

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guys, uh, were standing outside and I wouldn't open the door and. Their mouths flew open when they Saw a black student staring him in the face, you know, uh, it was a tau Kappa Epsilon. And they told me that they were, you know, on the Russian

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committee and they were coming by to interview freshmen, you know, trying to entice them to join a fraternity. They were very polite and told me that I was welcome to come to the smoker. You know, uh, They did say that their fraternity was not integrated. And

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uh you know they made it very clear that I was very welcome but my chance to get a fraternity about like a snowman in hell. OK, Mr. Gordon, that you, uh, you went to the University of Michigan before going to Howard. OK, after entering into Howard,

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now how did you adjust to Howard University? You know. Well, I had some problems at Harvard too. They were of a different nature than those in Michigan. Uh, I had been, uh, I guess, acclimated to the type of, you know, college activities that go on to

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Michigan, you know, when I got to Howard, it was a little different. I had heard much about Howard. The prestige that it had, what have you, but uh. Comparing it to Michigan in terms of physical structure, that was just much to be desired, you know, how

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you could set Howard, for example, inside of the University of Michigan and probably couldn't find it. OK, what about the competency of your teachers at Howard? I put, I put, I put the staff at Howard against any any staff in the country. They were very good

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teachers. They had black ones, white ones, foreign, foreign teachers and what have you. They were. Uh, they were excellent teachers and the staff was competent. There was a lot of Social activities in terms of parties and fraternity affairs that A black student could participate in Howard

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and feel at home and and and that type of thing it just was not available at Michigan. So, you know, the, the, uh, enticement, you know, er, not to study was much more prevalent in Howard because there were so many good things going on outside the

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classroom, you know, whereas in Michigan, you know, You didn't have a whole lot of choice, you know, you go to the movies, uh. Uh, though they had black fraternities at Howard and sororities at Howard, uh, the number of blacks at, I mean, at Michigan, I'm sorry,

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the number of blacks at Michigan when I was there was probably limited to about 200. And there just wasn't a whole lot to do. OK, you are a member of a fraternity, Alpha, is that right? Alpha Phi Alpha Phi Alpha. Now, when did you join the

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fraternity? Is it during the time that you were at Howard? Both, I pledged at Michigan and went over and when I uh went to Howard, I had to continue my pledge work and I did become a member of the fraternity at Howard University in 1954. OK.

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You, what degree did you receive at Howard? Was this your BS degree and then what? I received a BS degree in psychology at Harvard. OK. Mr. Gardner, uh, during the time you were in school, did you do any part-time work and as to supplement your income

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or to help you? Yeah, most assuredly when I was in Michigan. I went to the University of Michigan Hospital. As an attendant in physical therapy. And uh when I was at Howard. I drove cars for Avi's car rental on the weekends. Uh, which tend to be

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a fairly difficult chore because I drove from like Friday from 11 o'clock at night to 7 o'clock in the morning. I had an 8 o'clock Saturday morning class, so that, you know, tend to get kind of old after a while. Do you, uh, possibly remember? What

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the pay was. Not at all. OK. You were. Uh, in the military, being in the Air Force. When did you, did you join the Air Force or. So as to help you on your financial assistance to continue through school, or was this something that did you

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join it? Were you drafted or why did you enter into the Air Force? Well, both. I joined the Air Force because I was trying to get out of going to the army. I was drafted into the army. Uh, as soon as I got out of college

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and uh, I had a notice on my car telling me that I was going to Camp Chaffee, Arkansas. This immediately struck fear in my heart, and I had no intention of going to Arkansas, so I. Maneuvered around to Getting to the Air Force and when you

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join the Air Force, you joined for 4 years. But uh it was obvious to me after the first week that the the Air Force wasn't my bag either. So, uh, by attending. Uh, college, college there in San Antonio, Texas, you know, I took some education courses

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and that enabled me to get out two years early so I could embark on a teaching career. OK, uh, while you were in the service, uh, what was your job, uh, Were you trained specifically to do something or did they just take you from where you

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had a degree in psychology and let you work in that specific area? What did you do? Yes, I was a An assistant research psychologist in the Air Force. And I received No specific training for that. They just simply took advantage of the fact that I already

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had a degree. However, I did learn quite a bit, you know, on the job, doing what I was doing. What specifically, what did you do? Well, specifically we were charged with the task of Creating tests for incoming uh uh uh airmen. Uh, tested wide varieties, you

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know, uh. Tests for flight training, tests for different, uh, vocational skills while you're in there, general intelligence test. Uh, We, uh, even had to create tests that would find out to try to weed out or pick out which guys would make it in flight training, which

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guys would not. Were these tests actually administered? To the uh other people in the Air Force or were these just like a a test of trial and error where you used them with one and then threw it out? No, these tests. Created by a civilian psychologist

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right there at the Lackman Air Force Base. And our subjects were those guys who were at Lackland, you know, in the Air Force, OK. Mr. Gardner, uh, As well as, uh, being in school at Howard and University of Michigan, you've also had courses at UMKC. Was

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this, this was at the graduate graduate level? OK. You told me also in the preliminary while you were attending UMKC. I'm not sure. I, I don't believe it was called UMKC. You were the victim of a circumstance, uh, I don't, I don't recall where it was

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at, but could you tell me just what happened and also what the university was called during that time? Yeah, at that time it was called KCU or Kansas City University. It was a private institution. And the number of blacks rolls there were Minimal because it was

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thought to be a Rather difficult school compared to those, the other schools around the area. Uh, the incidents which you referred to was uh. Uh, involving the uh police. I, I had left my car in a garage to be repaired early that morning. And I was

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on my way out to KCU and uh I went by the garage to pick up my car. And the mechanics weren't quite through with it, so they asked me, you know, stand outside and wait maybe through in a few minutes. While I was standing outside the

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garage. A member of the Kansas City Police Department came up and Told me along with some other guys I was there talking to that he had to see somebody, you know, some ID. And uh I gave him my Missouri State teacher's card. And, uh, For some

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reason though, this didn't please him. And he referred to me as one of those little smart colored school teachers. And then he began to uh Put his hands inside my pockets to search me. Uh, I became infuriated at this and told him to get his hands

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out of my pocket, and he had a right to pat me down but not to put his hands in my pocket. And uh He saw that I was rather perturbed about this and uh I guess the fact that he was about 5758 and I was 6'1,

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weighing considerably more than he did started to frighten him so he ran to the police car and called for help. The paddy wagon came around. And some big joke about 1610 jumped out of the paddy wagon and asked who wasn't gonna be searched. And so I

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told him that uh That's the one that uh I wouldn't go stand for him or anybody else putting his hands inside my pocket. I would. I would be patted down like, you know, the law calls for. And so he had me spread eagle across the paddy

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wagon about 5:30 in the afternoon. On 30th and prospect. And uh this was extremely embarrassing because at that time people getting off of work and prospect is a heavy traveled street. Many of my students were out there, you know, and this was very, very embarrassing to

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me at that point in time, and I was taken down to the Sheffield station. And book for slaughtering of all things. But I spent about 10 minutes down there before I was released. OK, did this, were you teaching, you were teaching in Kansas City, Missouri. Did

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this affect Because your students saw you and I'm quite sure, uh, did they even, uh, was this released in the paper? Did it get back, uh, say up to the board of education? Well, I'm sure it did because, uh, it, I got a quite lengthy, I

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got a quite a lengthy article in the Kansas City. Store and the Kansas City Call. I made a new on KPRS. Uh, the case did come to court. I had to, I conferred with the Chief of Police on several occasions. Uh, he was trying to, uh,

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the chief of police at that time, by the way, was Clarence Kelly, who is now the head of the FBI. And he was trying to get me not to Go to Bruce Watkins about it because uh there had been several Several charges of uh police brutality.

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From the Black community and, and at that time. It seems that they just were running amok in terms of You know, uh, dealing with black professional people, you know, uh. Or at least that time I guess the black professions were the only ones that were bragging

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about it. Uh, I'm sure they were beating up other Blacks too, but, you know, er, shortly, er after. They arrested me on Thursday in prospect, about a week later they Jumped on a black pharmacist at Linwood and uh for sale. After a dance up there, you

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know, and just beat the guy unmercifully, you know. And uh so pressure was being brought to bear on the police force, so I guess that's why Kelly. Tried to get me not to, you know, make a political thing out of it and at that point in

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time, I had no intentions of, uh, going to Bruce Walker or anybody else, you know, I just wanted the guys suspended or something because he had Ostepped his bounds and taking advantage of me out there, you know. Well, I found out that Kelly was talking out

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of both sides of his mouth too, so I did go to Bruce Wackley and everybody else, you know. And uh it did become quite a big thing at that time. Did you have to pay a fine because of the lottery, or did they just let that

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die down, so to speak? Well, uh, I had to pay $25 to get out of jail, but that was returned to me. Uh, fortunately, Judge Clymer handled the case. He was a judge of the case and he is a black judge. And um He did handle

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it quite well and he uh sort of They let the cop have it right down there in court, you know, because, uh. He explained to the police, you know, that everybody that's Black is not a criminal, you know, and he said that He is often in

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the area where I was arrested, you know, and he said, uh, that he could very well understand he could be walking down the street, you know, and somebody might Do it the same way, so he was sort of incensed about that too. OK. Also during this

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time, was it a uh A boundary, so to speak, whereas the black people in Kansas City, Kansas, where you had your social type of life, uh, where you only maybe allowed to come as far as fifty-fifth for social entertainment, uh, places maybe like the Mule Walk

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Hotel, things of this nature, were you allowed inside? Um, Let's see. In most cases, Um, You very seldom. Like in my high school days, uh, especially, you very seldom saw a Black South of Thirty-first Street. Uh, when I was in high school, going downtown to New

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Bach or anyplace else was out, even at Woolworths, uh, the, you know, the 10 cent store downtown. Blacks had to stand on one side of the store at a counter and eat their hot dogs while whites had, you know, a nice little seating section on the

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other side. Uh, when I came back. From the service Uh, They still, uh, were by and large segregated. Blacks did not go downtown to attend shows, Blacks did not go downtown. Uh, to eat at restaurants. Uh, and by and large, blacks simply did their own thing

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like the neighborhood. Uh, the social center at that time was probably the, uh, Go Brummel Club that was located on 18th and Lydia, right off 8 by 17th and Lydia. But uh, It only became in the early 60s that uh Blacks began to go downtown and

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muleb. And, uh, most of us thought that was a pretty big thing, but they, they took advantage of us there too they. They gave us very, very poor service, of course, and charged us, you know, top dollar for everything that we got. OK, going back, going

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back a little, Mr. Gardner, when, uh, when did you become a part of the Kansas City, Missouri school district, and at that time, what was your position? I first became employed by the school district in 1959, September 1959, and I was A teacher at Lincoln High

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School and I taught. There for 6 years and during that time, I taught general math. I taught, uh, psychology and one year I taught human science. OK, I'm also aware that you have taught, uh, at Avila College. How were you employed? Was it on a regular

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basis? Was it on a part-time basis? And what courses did you teach there? Well, uh, it was definitely part-time. Uh, I taught two courses. I taught. Educational Psychology and I taught math for elementary teachers. Uh, it was in conjunction with the CPP program. Uh, which involved,

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you know, trying to prepare a teacher aides. For actual teaching position. OK. Now, uh, preparing teacher aides for, uh, teaching positions, was it part of the basic requirements as to lead up to a degree or to have them teach without a degree? No, no, no, no,

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no, these were regular college courses and they were taking these on the way to a bachelor's degree in education. OK. OK, Mr. Gardner, as a psychologist in the school system, you're studying the behavior of children, right? Essentially. OK. What type of, uh, instruments are used, uh,

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to obtain information regarding the child's behavior? Well, We do a couple of things. We, uh, Administer IQ test. And the ones that we. Well, the one that we use primarily is, is a Stanford Berne and that's considered the Probably the best IQ test going for children.

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We also on some occasions use the WISC. And the Peabody, uh, we do use the Benet primarily because that is the test that's accepted by the state of Missouri. Uh, we also. Deal with children who have mild emotional problems and play therapy. Uh, in play therapy.

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We do not go out to diagnose, to try to find out why the child is acting the way he does. We simply try to create an atmosphere. In which the child is accepted for what he does regardless of what it is. And in this type of

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atmosphere, we hope to create a certain amount of, you know, self-worth and self-confidence in the child so that he may alter his behavior patterns. OK, uh, play therapy, uh, what type of instruments are used in play therapy? Do you use puzzles, toys, or Well, we have

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a, variety of different types of toys and And clay. Um, sometimes we make use of, you know, crayons and paper we get can draw. Or even the chalkboard. Uh, The situation is highly non-structured and it's left up to the child to up to the child to

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get off into what he really wants to get off into. Sometimes. Children, uh, are very direct and and they talk about the things that bother them. Sometimes children are very Tense and they sit there. I've had children who just stand there for 25 minutes a session

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for. 1012 weeks and say absolutely nothing. I have one child at Yate school right now. Who has been in sessions for approximately 10 weeks and he's never uttered a word. OK, so you're you're you're saying that you're not. Uh, concentrating on the reason why, but just

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to make him more acceptable of his behavior. And I'm trying to increase his self-worth. His self-worth and by doing that, uh, I'm confident that he will change his behavior. Uh, the reason that we don't get off this diagnosis. is because at best, That any psychologist or

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psychiatrist can come up with is a, An educated guess as to why a child is acting the way he do, he, he does. Of times when you find out, for example, let's say that I was talking to a child and I was often this diagnosing thing,

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I, you know, and I found out that his mother was a prostitute. His father was uh doing life in Jefferson City for first degree murder, you know, and I found out that that was what was causing him to act the way he does. What can I

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do about it, you know, I can't make his mother stop being a prostitute. I can't get his father out of Jefferson City, you know, in prison, you know. So, uh, really from my theoretical position, you know, uh, to me it's just useless to get off into.

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You know, uh, why a kid is doing what he does, you know, uh, the only things that we can correct rather readily is something physical like if the kid is not getting enough to eat, you know, we can correct that. But if it's due to some

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reason, and most often it is, you know, to parental neglect. Uh Apathy in his home. Poor environmental circumstances, we can't do anything about anyway. OK, what, uh, type of toys are used or maybe they do as a group, maybe the whole uh Your whole staff, do

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they go together and maybe catalog, get a catalog and make a list, or maybe someone can make a suggestion? Is this something that the group does, or you buy your own supplies individually? Are they furnished by the school board? Does the school board give you a

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set amount to spend for that type of expense? I think our department has a budget and Uh, our supervisor, Doctor Verberg, uh, is the one that goes out and gets the toys, you know. Most of them are fairly, I mean, most sets are fairly consistent. They

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have. Puppets, you know. That are like, you know, like the mother puppet and the father puppet, the grandfather, grandmother puppet, a police puppet. Uh, things of this nature, we try to get little miniature people that that the kid can relate to, you know. Uh, we have

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trucks, we have clay, we have cars, we have. Furniture like little refrigerators and stoves and beds and things like this, uh. Guns, knives, snakes, variety of different types of animals. OK, now the parents, are the parents notified that their child or their children. Has been enrolled

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or a school psychologist will be seeing the child, how does the parent fit in with this type of uh program? Uh, normally the parent has very little to do with it, uh. We don't write and ask permission. Uh, We simply take the referral from the teacher

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and start working with the child. If the child goes home and tells the parent about it, you know, the parent is always welcome to come up and Observe What we're doing, if he can observe from someplace where the child can't see him, or we'll be glad

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to talk to the parent and tell him precisely what we're doing. OK, usually, do you see this child maybe a period of 2 years or is there any set amount like they say, well, you have to see this child for a set amount of sessions or

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you see the child until you feel? Well, the amount of times we see the child fluctuates, you know, I've seen some children for as little as 6 sessions, some for as many as 20 sessions. Uh, the thing about Portman is that, you know, uh, if a

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child is gonna improve. In most instances, he'll do so. Around 10 or 12 sessions. Have you ever seen the case where the child is considered to be so secure that it cannot be handled in the school setting or where you possibly Would have to make a

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referral to another organization for possible help. Um, I hate to be, I sound immodest about this, but. The type of attention that we give the child is probably comparable that he get the arrest of a mental health psychiatric receiving center. Or any of the rest of

00:32:47.750 - 00:33:04.939

them now. What they may get at these other institutions is A total physical. Uh, examination and that, you know, of course we as psychologists are incapable of giving because that's not our area, but then I can go to Children's Mercy and, you know, get a total

00:33:04.939 - 00:33:18.339

physical, but, uh, they give IQ tests the same way that we give IQ tests. Uh, I've seen all too many of them in our scores of, you know, the scores that I would get from a Benet is pretty much the same that anybody with Western Missouri

00:33:18.339 - 00:33:37.189

would get or anybody at, uh, Children's Mercy would get. So really. Uh We've, I've had very, very few cases, only one. As a matter of fact, that I thought that, you know, it was just the child was just so retarded. Coupled with being most disturbed that

00:33:37.189 - 00:33:55.880

he just wasn't capable of uh benefiting from. The types of services that were offered in the school, uh, and this child would have had to been. Institutionalized permanently. You know, in my judgment, the IQ was. So low that uh. The Benet wasn't really an accurate instrument

00:33:55.880 - 00:34:17.800

to measure. OK, uh, Mr. Gardner, I'm aware that you are presently involved in the desegregation plan or planning for the school system. Just how are you involved? Do you have a position in it? Are you operating as a president? And just what is the, uh, committee

00:34:17.800 - 00:34:43.509

trying to do? Well, the, the committee which you have referenced is called desegregation task force. It was Commissioned by The Board of Education to come up with a plan. To desegregate the schools in Kansas City, Missouri. We are strictly Operating in an advisory capacity, that is

00:34:43.509 - 00:35:03.010

to say that What we're all about is developing a plan and submitting it to the Board of Education. Uh, it is, it is the responsibility of the board to either accept this plan. Or rejected, you know, so, uh. We like, we don't have the final say

00:35:03.010 - 00:35:15.600

about schools being desegregated in Kansas City. We submit a plan to the board. If the board is pleased with this plan, they accept it. If the board doesn't make it work, we're gonna reject it. Uh, my position is the chairman of the, of the task force.

00:35:17.790 - 00:35:39.120

And um We meet Every other Thursday. Uh, the task force has been, uh, I mean, the entire task force meets every other Thursday. We have 65 members in the task force. And we have each member has an alternate so that if he can't make a meeting

00:35:39.120 - 00:36:00.770

or Something like that, in his office, you know, he's supposed to step in and take his place. Is the committee made up of teachers or their parents or the community helpers? The committee. It is composed of, 6 teachers. One student from each of the high schools.

00:36:02.050 - 00:36:35.370

Uh, 4 parents from each of the. 6 subdistricts. And approximately. 22. Different organizations. In the city, so it's a, you know, the group has an extremely broad base, it represents. The entire city. OK. Uh, I believe it was last year in August '75 that uh The

00:36:35.370 - 00:36:59.639

board did submit a plan and the plan was rejected, am I correct? What do you think the reasons? That the plan, uh, the plan was subjected, and do you feel there is an answer? To the desegregation plan without bussing, do you feel more so that, uh,

00:36:59.879 - 00:37:15.239

what's behind bussing is just that, well, I am a white parent and I do not want my white child over there with the black children, or I am a white parent and I feel the black teachers are not qualified. One of the primary reasons that Plan

00:37:15.239 - 00:37:34.760

E failed was because it put the burden. A bussing on the uh black population, the black students, and one of the guidelines uh that HEW has set down is that no one partic particular ethnic group will bear the burden of any desegregation plan and it was

00:37:34.760 - 00:37:48.639

very obvious that uh they were going to cross bus on the high school and junior high school level, but they were gonna do no cross bussing on the elementary school level, that is that. Only black children would be bussed to white schools and there'd be no,

00:37:49.159 - 00:38:11.399

no white elementary students, uh, bussed to black schools. Uh, now to, to, uh, address myself to the second question about bussing. Uh, I have Done some very extensive reading on bussing. And I am firmly convinced that uh Bussing has never been the issue. Never has been.

00:38:11.520 - 00:38:30.459

Uh, bussing was started back in the middle 18. 50s in uh Massachusetts when they were taking children to schools and horses and buggies, you know what I mean. Uh, over 60%, over 60% of all the students in the United States of America are bus to schools.

00:38:30.899 - 00:38:49.399

In rural areas, the percentage goes up to much higher. In some cases, 100% of the students in rural areas are bused to schools. Uh, students in special education have been bussed to schools in Kansas City ever since I can remember. Uh, students are bussed for the

00:38:49.679 - 00:39:08.919

vocational technical Center down in, down on 18th and Forest in Kansas City. Uh, Of all the bussing that's done in the, in the country. Only 3% of that is done for the purpose. Of, uh, integration. So it's not bussing per se. I mean, it's not the

00:39:08.919 - 00:39:25.209

mere fact of a child getting on a bus and going 5 or 10 miles away from his home to a school. That's been the pattern in this country for years. Uh, the problem is that we still have parents, both black and white. who do not want

00:39:25.209 - 00:39:40.689

to integrate. And that's the problem, and they say, oh sure, you know, we don't object if our child is going to, you know, a school that's just as comparable, you know, as the ones we have or if it's gonna go to a better school, you know,

00:39:41.350 - 00:39:58.729

well, we can't control, you know, the quality of the schools uh that's something that the parents ought to be off. Uh, I'm one of the most avid, avid, uh, advocates of having quality education. You know, but the blacks didn't, the blacks didn't segregate the neighborhoods in

00:39:58.729 - 00:40:15.679

Kansas City. And the blacks didn't see to it that Uh, many of your master's degree teachers are out in white schools instead of black schools. The black didn't do this at all. You know, so the Blacks didn't create the situation, you know, this, this, this was

00:40:15.679 - 00:40:35.530

done by those whites they were in the power to do this, you know. And now, uh Everybody's going to pay the price for desegregation and desegregation. It's gonna cause some, some burdens, you know, in Kansas City. The great majority of you blacks live live between Seventy-fifth

00:40:35.530 - 00:40:51.209

Street to the north. I mean, excuse me, Seventy-fifth Street to the south. Down to Independence Boulevard in the north. Truce Avenue to the west and Van Bruunt to the east. And you will find about 70 to 80% of your blacks live in this area that I've

00:40:51.209 - 00:41:15.419

just described. And they have lived there primarily. Uh, because of the Dictates to those people who handle real estate. You know. So, uh, you asked the question, you know, could it be done without bussing? Assuredly not. Bussing has to be involved in any type of plan

00:41:15.419 - 00:41:31.629

that we come up with. We use magnet schools, alternative schools. Uh, repairing of schools, you know, there are a lot of ways you can get off into the desegregating schools. But uh it's gonna simply mean that you're gonna have to have some white kids. You know,

00:41:31.780 - 00:41:48.879

coming to some black schools, you have to have some black kids going to some white schools, and you cannot do that in Kansas City, Missouri without bussing. That's just inevitable. Recently they've had the uh The Byrd Amendment. It's an anti-bussing amendment, and I say recently, I'm

00:41:48.879 - 00:42:13.919

talking about 2 weeks ago. And the Byrd Amendment strictly prevents HEW. From ordering a school district to bus a child past his nearest school, the school nearest to his home. Well, that's fine. But this bill does not prevent a school district from doing that on their

00:42:13.919 - 00:42:33.020

own. See, so what I'm saying is that is that if the Kansas City school district. Operates in good faith. They can achieve Uh, some desegregation. Uh, my thinking is that, uh, surely, uh, uh, yeah, HCW is gonna say, sure, no, we ain't gonna take you the

00:42:33.020 - 00:42:47.479

bus. All we're gonna say is, Comply with the law of the land and you do it any way you want to do it because if you don't, it's gonna cost you $10 million and it's just that simple now if the Kansas City school district. would rather

00:42:47.479 - 00:43:05.120

lose $10 million. And wreck a school system that's in barely need of repair in the first place, then that's the choice they're gonna have to make. But we're gonna, we're gonna desegregate whether the The board accepts our plan or the board accepts the court's plan because

00:43:05.120 - 00:43:21.520

if they don't surrogate with the plan we give them. Then eventually, It's gonna be taken to court and some judge will just sim simply arbitrarily decide what plan they're gonna use and they would have to use it just like they're doing in Boston. Do you know

00:43:21.520 - 00:43:49.739

whether or not this was the first plan? How, how, how long, what length of time has Kansas City, Missouri been, uh. How long have they been working on a desegregation plan? Well, Now I can't Answer that specifically and accurately. Uh. They were supposed to have been

00:43:49.739 - 00:44:11.449

working on a plan since 1954. And that obviously was not the case. Uh. I think they began work on a plan when it became pretty clear to them. that the federal government was not Well, well, that the federal government was very sincere about cutting off monies

00:44:11.449 - 00:44:31.489

to the school district. They have been Accepting money, federal money for some years. On the basis that, that, that, that, that uh some type of desegregation, you know, was being instituted, whereas in fact it was not. Uh, the first ax that hit him. Was that, uh

00:44:33.750 - 00:44:51.909

The government said no, the staff would have to be desegregated. And as you well know, They waited till the midnight hour and one year all of a sudden they realized that the federal government wasn't jiving and they said we're gonna Take the money if you don't

00:44:51.909 - 00:45:11.550

integrate your staff, so teachers were just uprooted almost overnight and sent helter-skelter all over the city, much to many of them dismay. And uh this did nothing but to worsen or lessen what quality education we had in Kansas City because in that process the way it

00:45:11.550 - 00:45:28.649

was handled by the school district. was that they allowed principals to Pick teachers from their schools, you know, for this pool of teachers to be. You know, sent to other schools and of course no principal is going to take his best teacher and voluntarily, you know,

00:45:28.800 - 00:45:42.439

send her off. So what they did was just put the worst teachers in the pool and by and large, except for some few, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you, I guess a few, uh, Cases that weren't of this nature, but by and large the great majority

00:45:42.439 - 00:46:06.810

of your worst teachers were sent to the black community and this is what we were stuck with. OK, Mr. Dyer, you know, in, uh, Boston and Florida. Uh, we've seen all through all types of media, whereas the students. Uh, behavior after the bussing occurred, uh, did

00:46:06.810 - 00:46:27.189

some type of demonstrations. They, uh, were fighting in the school buildings. They were fighting on the buses. Also, uh, we have, we've had groups of parents to come up to the schools and demonstrate how do you think this is affecting. The students behavior throughout the United

00:46:27.189 - 00:46:47.520

States. Well, that's difficult to say, say, uh, the only thing I can tell you is that. Most of the studies show that uh you're bound to have some. Discord, you know, uh, immediately after the plan is instituted. By and large, those, uh, communities who come up

00:46:47.520 - 00:47:00.449

with a plan and stick to it, they found that like in, in, uh, in Charlotte, North Carolina, you know, you don't have any more problems down there, you know, uh, by and large, these things take care of themselves. You're gonna have a few rabble rousers and

00:47:00.449 - 00:47:17.870

the, the unfortunate thing about that is that the news media, the the the TVs, the newspapers focus on maybe 1 or 2% of the parents that are out there raising hell. They give very little play up to the 70, 80, 90% of the parents and students,

00:47:17.949 - 00:47:30.669

by the way, who are not out there with switchblades and and and and razors and and and pistols and you know and and and engaging in illegal activity. The great majority of people go along with the plan. But uh you know, like it's just part of

00:47:30.669 - 00:47:49.320

our country, you know, we, uh we tend to uh. To, uh, accentuate the negative rather than the positive. And so this is what hits the, you know, the you know the television and the newspapers. Um, Mr. Gardiner, um. You are a member of the Alpha Phi

00:47:49.320 - 00:48:10.729

Alpha fraternity and during the preliminary, uh, you were telling me of the different things that the Alphas are sponsoring or the scholarships that they have been giving to the black youth. Could you elaborate a little on that? Yes, well, for, Since 1959, I've been, I've, I,

00:48:10.800 - 00:48:39.219

I've been a member of Beta Lambda chapter of our fraternity Alpha Alpha and Since that time, that's what. Uh. 17 years. Uh, we've given Scholarships to Uh, black students, black high school students, you know, to encourage them to go to college. We've also Done much in

00:48:39.219 - 00:49:02.310

terms of helping undergraduate chapters of our fraternity who are primarily Black. Like for example, we, uh, we have contributed much to the housing fund. At uh KU in Lawrence, we, uh, bought a house for Uh, undergrad chapter at Pittsburgh, uh. At at at at Pittsburgh, Kansas.

00:49:03.239 - 00:49:29.550

We have, uh, given assistance and guidance to Delta Road chapter here in Kansas City, Missouri. Uh, we've also. Made financial contributions to To, uh, uh, uh, Nile's home, uh, a children, I mean, uh, an institute, an institution for Uh, black children who've been neglected by their

00:49:29.550 - 00:49:49.250

parents here in Kansas City. Uh, even, even during the riots, and many people are not aware of this, even in the Kansas City riots. Uh, though the whole chapter was not in favor of this, we did make small contributions to the Black Panthers. Specific, uh, food

00:49:49.250 - 00:50:07.189

program that they had breakfast program that they had down at Saint Stephen's Church. OK, Mr. Gardner, let's cover a a little also on your family. I'm aware that you have two daughters. Could you tell me how old your children are, what schools they attend? Are they

00:50:07.189 - 00:50:28.290

in the public school system in Kansas City? Yes, most assuredly one, the oldest one is Tia. And she attends Lincoln Junior. She's 13. The youngest one is Renee. She attends Attic school. And she is 10. Uh, Tia had an opportunity to go to Barstow, which is

00:50:28.290 - 00:50:45.969

a private school. She won a $1000 scholarship. But in addition to the $1000 Barstow wanted another $1400. And I thought that was much, much too much, much, much too much money for, you know, to send a child to the 7th grade. So I decided to uh.

00:50:47.530 - 00:51:14.389

They were in public school. OK, now, Renee. Uh. She has been in an academically talented class, is this correct? Well, you can call it that, uh. The class was designed for academically talented students, however, I went to Norman Elementary School and uh I observed, uh, that

00:51:14.389 - 00:51:36.899

the, uh, classes there were challenging, uh, They had too many students of a different grade level. They had 4, they had 4 grades in one classroom. And the teacher there was a first year teacher. And he had difficulty And discipline the children. And he wasn't given

00:51:36.899 - 00:51:52.020

very much assistance from the downtown office. Uh, he seemed to be, you know, a fairly amiable teacher and all that. I, I mean, I don't have anything against the teacher. Uh, I thought the program at Norman was extremely inadequate. And so I took her out of

00:51:52.020 - 00:52:11.439

there and sent him back to Adams. Mr. Gardner, I would like to thank you on behalf of the Black Archives for this interview. I would like to say you are indeed an asset to the Kansas City area. And I would like for you to continue your

00:52:11.439 - 00:52:16.379

work in the segregation program and also throughout the community. Thank you, Ms. Pruitt.