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Interviewing Dr. Jeremiah Cameron for the Black Archives of Mid-America. The date is April. 11. April 11th, 1976. OK, Doctor Cameron, when and where were you born? I was born here in Kansas City. And you want the year. Right. When I was born. Well, I don't know,

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I think I was born in 1919. 1919. So that makes you, Oh. Well, I suppose if you started subtracting that, that would make me, what, 56? 56, OK. OK. Uh, you were born in 1919 here. Can you tell me a little bit about your parents, what

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they did and, Know a little bit about your early childhood. My mother was, uh, Housewife is my mother there. Uh her taking 1920. 6. Uh, my, uh, father left when I was about 6. And, uh, When I was about 7, my mother married a man by

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the name of Esther Brewer who really was in a sense to be my father, and he was a common laborer here in Kansas City, having jobs now and then not having jobs as a consequence of that, we, uh, We knew very much what poverty was like.

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We lived all over Kansas City when we lived in one house and, uh, uh, couldn't pay the rent out of that, we moved to another. And eventually, over, uh, 30 some odd years ago. Uh, my stepfather and my mother bought this house, and, uh, although they

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have died and my brothers and sisters, I have half brothers and sisters have left, that's one of the reasons I, I, I stay here. I, I, I love the neighborhood, but I, I love the house. It has so many, uh, reminders of things that, uh, we

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did together like that huge evergreen tree that you see in the front yard. When we put that out, that was not more than, 0 6 ft tall. Um-hum. And now it must be well over. 80 ft tall. Uh. OK, where did you go to school? Well,

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I went to Adds school. Adds. Adducks. I lived in that area at one time. Then I went to Yates. We lived in that area. Then, then we moved back into the Adducks area and then I went to Adds again. And then my stepfather got a job

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out, uh, On the 42nd and Oak, pretty near the um. Art gallery and at that time I went to Penn School. Incidentally, that school, uh, was destroyed by fire. Well, it was closed first, but that was perhaps the oldest school, maybe not just black school, but

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the oldest school in Kansas City. And while I was a student there in 6th grade, Charlie, the great Charlie Parker was also a student there in the 6th grade at that time. And from Penn school I went to Lincoln High School. Did you, uh, you're talking

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about Charlie Parker, the musician bird. That's right. OK. Did you know very much about Byrd? Oh, quite a bit. And not, see, I, I, I, I knew him from the 6th grade on up to the time he died. Um-hum. And, um, Uh, although he left him

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with to New York, you know, his mother did not live far from his house, lived at 15th and Park, and from time to time when he would return to Kansas City, uh, I'd see him down on 18th and Park, 18th Olive, he would have been coming

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from his mother's house, and then, uh, down through the years he would meet at the house of Reginald Hodge, who didn't live far from here, 23rd and Woodland, a very fine pianist. And I took piano lessons too, but I couldn't play very well, and Charlie Parker

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would play there amazingly well. He played Bach, never hadn't had a lessons in, in music. I guess I know quite a bit about. Um, OK, so you went to Yates and Adex and, and Penn. Charlie Parker was at Penn. Um-hum. Um, What about later school? That's

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grammar school. That's grammar school. Then I went to Lincoln High School. See, at that time, Lincoln High School was the only school, uh, high school in Kansas City. And when I finished there, I went to the University of Indiana. But Lincoln High School was the only

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high school for blacks. For blacks, uh-huh. OK. Was Penn also a black school? Oh, yes. It was a little two room school. They're at 43rd and Pennsylvania Avenue. Um-hum. Well blacks lived in that area then you're talking about the West area, you see, uh. The Westport

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area there, well, really all that area where I lived too was a part of Westport, but Westport proper where the blacks lived was there, uh. West of uh Broadway that was called Mill Creek Road then and I lived over on 42nd and Locust and I suppose

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I had to walk maybe about 8-9 blocks to Penn whereas students who lived in the Westport walked about 2 or 3 blocks. They were right there at it and they're blacks, you know. I went to Penn school with me who was still living in Westport now.

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So, when does that area begin to change over to largely white or? When the older blacks out there died off and the younger blacks left. You know, right now Saint Luke is very much interested in getting the, the land of those black people. They want to

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expand. Uh, Mary Louise, uh, Hinton, who went to Penn school with me, who, uh, still lives out there, owns some of that very valuable land, and there are a number of blacks still out there, but, but the younger blacks. Weren't interested in staying there. In fact,

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many have left the city. And as their parents died out, while, you know, the land went elsewhere. OK, so you, at Lincoln High School. What was Lincoln High School like in this time? This must have been, Uh, 1930337. X. Uh-huh. An excellent high school but I

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went to Lincoln High School. All of the teachers there. were well trained and, and dedicated. uh, there were almost no teachers at Lincoln High School who did not have a master's degree, and I mean master's degrees from first grade universities back in those years. Blacks would

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hardly have gone to KU for a master's degree if you did, but they went to Chicago and Cornell and Harvard and, and you know, the very finest schools. Uh, there was a Phi Beta Kappa there when I was there. I had Negro history in Lincoln High

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School. Mhm. Who were some of the people, some of the teachers who were there, you know, by name, who I can name them my own, uh. Doctor Gerard T. Bryant, who is now on the board of trustees of Metropolitan Junior College, was a teacher there then.

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I'd like to talk about some who are living. There aren't that many who are living now. JK Russell is still alive. Who is JK Russell? Uh, he taught auto mechanics there. Uh-huh. And, uh, But some of the very fine scholars there were, uh, William Griffin and.

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Trussie Smothers along with Doctor Bryant. In fact, all the scholars were, were fine. Wilbur Howell, he had owned a bachelor's degree but was just a little genius, uh. Burt Mayberry. You know, almost anyone I mentioned. would have been a teacher of excellence in Lincoln High School.

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Do you think it made any difference in the kind of education you received that the school was all black? And did it benefit you or did it, In those years, yes, because they were all black and were very much interested in elevating. The standard of black

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people. You see, when I was An undergraduate undergraduate when I was a, a student taking world history from Mr. Howe, I have never forgot. A former student of Lincoln High School, Francis Edwards. It had to be what, 1935. I can remember it distinctly. Was elected to

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Phi Beta Kappa at KU. Mr. Howe asked our students to go to the Negro Yearbook. There used to be what was known as the Negro Yearbook, came out yearly, and it would publish the names of all blacks in this country who had ever been elected to

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Phi Theta Kappa. That was extremely difficult for blacks to get in those years. It is not easy now for them to get it, but I can remember very distinctly Mr. Howell saying to me, because I was one of his E students. Uh, you can make Phi

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Beta Kappa. And when I went to the University of Indiana, That was my goal to be another Black Phi Beta Kappa. And in 1942 I was elected Phi Beta Kappa. Now I don't think I would have been interested in Phi Beta Kappa if, uh, Mr. uh.

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How? Hadn't become interested in me, but then other teachers had said that to me too. They, they did a great deal to inspire you. We knew about Negro music, Negro literature and uh. The Negro achievements from Rear Lincoln High School because that, that the principal, Hale

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O. Cook, for whom something in this town ought to be named. Kept that before us. He was philanthropic himself. And he was he was he was black. OK. Came from a distinguished family. His brother, Will Marion Cook was a very distinguished musician. OK. And after Lincoln

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High School, you went to Indiana University. Indiana University, where you became, where you became Phi Beta Kappa. Phi Beta Kappa received my degree with degree with the highest honors. At the time I, I, I, I graduated from Indiana, there were only two of us graduating summa

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cum laude, uh, A white fellow in Latin and I received my degree summa cum laude in, uh, In English they were number 5 Beta Kappas who did not graduate with highest honors because that was something, uh, extra and this was a time when Indiana. Did not

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let blacks swim in the swimming pool. Those were the days of real prejudice. So you're looking back um at 56 years of American history and race relations and all of that. Can you see some enormous changes? You know, can you see them locally in this area?

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Can you see the nicely? Yes, and some for the good and some for the bad. For example, Lincoln High School's only a shadow of the school that it was when I went there and only a shadow of the school it was when I taught there. In

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fact, it is a disgrace, as a black school. Uh, on the other hand, I look back and think about some of the things that blacks have been able to achieve in this. For example, I have myself now produced 3 Phi Beta Kappas of my own. Uh,

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one who went to Central High School with you, Deidre Thomas, went on to to Howard University and received Phi Beta Kappa. He I produced two out of Lincoln High School. What, what Mr. Howell did for me. I attempted to do for others and of course I

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have produced more PhDs now than most of them produced because I just have a number of students, farm students now who have PhDs, uh, just many, many from Central and quite a number from Lincoln High School. But uh. The fact that they can go into schools

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and do what they, you know, take what they want to take, and that they can get jobs. Now, I have a student who's a professor at Yale. And that was, that wasn't available to me. Uh, I think, who's, who's the professor here? Well, he's gone from

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that now, uh, to Berkeley, uh, Richie Goldsby. OK. And I have one who's a professor of English at the University of Connecticut. You may, if you read any black literature, you, you run across him and you perhaps remember his brother from having seen him on, uh,

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Channel 4 here. Uh, Donald Gibson, their father, he's gone, uh. Cleaning shop there at 26th in Brooklyn. I'm interested in what it's like to be poor, you know, and be a child in this community. Oh, to have been poor, but when I was a small child

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is unimaginable to you. Because it was in the depression years. When uh. Almost nobody had a job. And when black men, they were disgraced and dishonored because, you know what is true now was true then. If they were the last to be hired, they were the

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first to be fired. But that was the time when both white and black men were out of jobs and millionaires in this, this country lost fortunes and some of them committed suicide. They just couldn't face being poor. Being poor might, uh, I mean, for example, I

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used to go to high school, never have lunch. You know that. And, uh, Was it a general kind of, You know, which Is yours an example? Is it a special example or, you know, is just, is it a general kind of thing that was happening? I'm

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commenting. Well, it was, it was commonplace, you see. Uh, you wouldn't know about a time when people wouldn't have been able in your neighborhood to have kept a, a, a wooden fence, and, in the winter time people would have taken it down at night and burned

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it. Uh, there used to be here in Kansas City streets that were made of, uh, wooden blocks. There's a few of those are left now, and people pulled up the streets and burn them, uh, to keep warm. And yet, you know, it's interesting. The streets were

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safe. That's the time when the Pendergast, hoodlums ran Kansas City, but they only affected each other, and they did not let these little punks take over the city. You could, you were, you felt safe. Well, I, it may be that no one would rob you because

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there wasn't anything to, to, to get. Everybody was poor. But the Kansas City was relatively. You see. And you, you know nothing, uh, uh, uh, about the safety of Kansas City. In fact, the Kansas City began to become an unsafe place down in the 50s. It

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was fairly safe through the 40s. In, in the 1940s, I, I wouldn't have been afraid at all to walk at night from here to 18th in troops. I would walk from here at night up to the corner. You think that's because of your age and seeing

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things differently than you. No, it's because of. You can't either. No, let me find you on these streets at night, you don't. These people don't walk the streets at night, and if they do, they walk armed. Um-hum. The streets are dangerous for you. You mentioned Charlie

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Parker. Were there other people who went on to achieve considerable amounts of success among your classmates and. Oh, yes, uh, uh, there was a fellow from, um, Westport too. Arthur Santis, who is now quite an outstanding architect in Cleveland, Ohio, he, he flies back. He'll see

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his mother every so often he will call me. And um. I don't forget that they're not far behind me in the years was the black man now, uh, uh, uh, Samuel Cornesius, you know Cornelius. Uh-huh, who does so much around this town. He, he, he, he

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came along at that period of time. Um-hum. And they, by the way, he came to this area, For the others. That's that you can think of. Oh yes, not that would be especially outstanding. Some of you wouldn't know about. There was a fellow who, uh, went

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to Lincoln High School and eventually joined the great Katherine Dunham Dancers and they went over to Austria and set up his own dancing team. His name was Nathan Washington. He uh, he took on an African name way back there and you know his, his brother died

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here last year and he was back in town. And I didn't know it until he had come in for the funeral and had gone and I saw it in the paper that he had come in to bury his brother. The brother who was living, interestingly enough,

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You wouldn't know this, but people back in those years would have known about the terrible fire down in Mississippi. Uh, the old church building which was turned into a dance hall, and one night the place caught a fire and burnt everybody alive. Well, Nathan Washington's brother

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down in Mississippi was burned up in that fire. It was after that in the 30s that uh They came to town. You mustn't forget that Mary Lou Williams, the great black musician, is from Kansas City and from, uh, she came out here around that area. And

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you mustn't forget that when I was a boy, uh, the great Count Basie was playing here in Kansas City, and he came out here. He picked up the old Benny Moten Orchestra. Uh, what about, what about the places that they, where they used to play? Mostly

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on 18th Street. Well, that's how Bird got that name. There used to be a place on 18th and uh. vine called Foxes and uh young boys couldn't go in those places at that time and hear those musicians and Charlie Parker stand out in the yard and

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listen to the music and that's how he got that name Yardbird but they're all, all up and down 18th Street and by the way, I'm, I'm happy to know that there are people interested in restoring that, uh. 189 was, and 12th Street, those were blooming places.

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You know, that's interesting to me because I read somewhere that the reason Bird was called, was named Bird was that he ate a lot of chicken, that he really liked chicken. But that was why it's called Yardbird. Uh, I wouldn't doubt that isn't true too. When

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you stand, stand back of foxes in the yard. I, I that may be why the yard is there. The bird may be, uh, that you thought about maybe the chicken. Um, OK. You went to grammar school. High school here, and then went off to Indiana University.

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Um-hum. Then I went into the service. Went into the service? Uh-huh. I was in the Air Force. Uh-huh. For, uh, two years, and when I came out of the Air Force, I, uh, in 1940, Before I became a teacher and Catholic school district. Um-hum. That's interesting.

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So, when did you go back to school and, you know, pick up your master's? I would go in the summertime. I would go in the summertime. I really went to summer school from 1944, off and on down through 1957. Actually, though, uh, in the last three

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summers, I was here writing my doctoral dissertation. I had done all the work. Um-hum. And I didn't have to go back, but, but down to about 53, I was in school every summer. Um-hum. And so what would you do, leave Kansas City and Chicago. I was

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there for, Three summers and I had a master's degree. Then I went back for a summer. Then I decided I was going to take a, a doctorate degree at the University of Wisconsin. I went there for 2 summers and then I left there and went to

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Michigan State and, uh, In 50, 51, 52, and then in 53, I took a semester off and then stayed through the summer and then finished my exams and uh. We were a year deciding on the dissertation topic and uh in '54, so that's why it took

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so long to get through the dissertation. All of it is done through the mail. Um. What was your dissertation on? Uh, multiple negatives, and it's a 684 page affair. Would you like to see it? I have it, a copy of it in here. Uh, It went

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through the mail. OK. Multiple negations in. Yeah, the multiple negation. I, when they, when they did it downtown here, they, um, And what is the, what is the, The content of the book. Well, let's do what the things that they've taught you were wrong. I have

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not no money, and that gestation is to prove the historic of the farm. The farm is as old as the hills, and, and it, and it has all kinds of different structures. And uh you see, I ran it that's what the graphs are uh for uh

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we went all the way back to to old English and then I stopped in 1950. I limited, limited to British English not to run into any special problems and, uh, but you can see the gap it was the gathering of the data that took so long.

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Because the, here's the, the most of this is the data. See, all that is the data that all of this is based on, and I had to read books and count all of the negatives and count all of the double negatives and then talk about what

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percentage of that particular article of the negatives there with this kind of negative and that kind of negative and then set that against time and that would be of course what these graphs and tables are for. I see. Uh-huh. OK. So, uh, you got your master's

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from the University of Chicago. Um-hum. And you got your PhD from Michigan State? Um-hum. Let me see. I would never want to do this one again. I was furious at them. Let me tell you why I'm furious at them. The white people were getting through with

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about that much. The white kids that came along with me at the same time and had the same man would end up with dissertations of 200 page. He made me double my data, and I'll never, I'll never like him for it because, uh, with one half

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the data. That I have now, the graphs were the same, and he felt that I should, uh, have more data, and I had to double mine. And when I got back and found the Maxine I Stone and the others were getting by with him for 250

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pagestation, I've had respect for him. I never, I haven't written him since, uh, since then because I felt that, uh, he was being unfair. So, is this available, it's only available in the library in Michigan State? Hum-um. I know all doctor dissertations have to be microfilm

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at the Library of Congress. I see. So, that's on microfilm. All, all in this country do. Um-hum. All, Doctoral station. Have to be microfilm. I don't think if I want that to get my, the microfilm if that costs so much. I have seen the, the breakdown

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of microfilms for all the dissertation done that year and where, where the microfilm, you can see that's just a lot of microfilm and, uh, I'd be interested in knowing if anybody has, has, uh, used my gestation for any purpose. Um-hum. Um, What was the University of

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Chicago like when you were there to school? Uh, it's pretty much like what it is like now. Uh, thoroughly concerned about what's inside students' minds, and, Development of fundamental and basic skills rather than packing the mind full of knowledge in Michigan State I know Wisconsin, they

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were much more concerned about. How much you knew. For example, at Chicago for the master's degree in English, they give you a book. To analyze or it might be a set of essays. And another one to criticize, and that was the exam. They want to know

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what your analytical skills were. There wouldn't be any exam over the history of English literature. They wouldn't ask you a thing about Shakespeare. They would give you work and they before that. He would have had courses in the techniques of analysis, their way, and the techniques

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of criticism, their way, and you'd be expected. Now for the PhD you'd have to do that as a preliminary examination before they would admit you to work on the PhD. You have to prove to them. Now they do that type of dissertation in Chicago, but you'd

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have to prove first. Not just through coursework. To exam That you knew how to analyze and that meant in terms of Aristotle's concept. And you criticize in terms of Eric. Eric, that's a school where Aristotle rules in the department and in terms of what he said.

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Um, and if you couldn't do that. You would not get a degree. Or they give you a degree and ask you not to come back. Um-hum. If you really couldn't do it, you wouldn't get a degree. Um What else about the University of Chicago? It sits

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in the middle of the ghetto in Chicago. Oh, yeah. Oh, it's, and yes, it's unlike any school you have ever seen. Uh, it still is not large. Um-hum. All down through the years, it's never had more than 8000 students. You see, you couldn't get more than

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8000 students with the types of minds they want and the types of discipline they want. There's nothing there but. Um-hum. Intellect. Um-hum. I mean, I was pure intellect. Um That probing and probe you, you've, I've taught you, you could, you could, I have, I do some

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of those things that they could take a poem and, and, and, and teach it for five or six months, probing and tearing it apart and, and Putting it back together. So what was your, uh, master's in in Chicago? In English. And your PhD is in English

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or linguistics? Uh, well, English linguistics. Um-hum. Let's see what, you know, what distinguishes English, English linguistics. Well, linguistics is, is one area of English. If you would take a degree in English, might be American literature or, and even now in most schools they even break that

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down. But if you went in the English literature, it might be the Elizabethan age, a Renaissance or, uh, the Middle Ages or the 18th century or Victorian age of the 20th century, and another one in the fields would be linguistics. The truth of the matter is

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you can't study any of those fields without knowing linguistics, and the truth of the matter is you really can't be a good poet without either knowing linguistics, uh, unconsciously or very consciously, because you're, what you're doing is you're dealing with sounds. There's no such thing as

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a first-rate poem that does not sound good. The ideas are not enough. You see, you could put the ideas in prose. It has to have sound. And when I say sound good, it, a poem may have harsh sounds. But if the idea the person is talking

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about is harsh, then that's consistency. So Aristotle applied that. So it sounds good. That is the, and this is why I admire much of Leroy Jones poem. When they're vulgar, they're talking about the vulgarities of American life, and that's fitting. Not a thing in the world

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wrong with that. And you don't have the adequate words, the adequate rhythms to talk about how ugly it is, and he can show you as in that poem Black Art, that when he wants to turn off in something people in that very poem, he can do

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so. When he ends that poem he talked about turning the world into a black world and letting black love brings, bring the sounds get beautiful, the dirty language goes, you can do it. When he's talking about the relationship between white people and black people. He uses

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dirty language because it is a dirty relationship, but that's beautiful because it's consistent that as a farm man is fitting the content, and there isn't anything in the world wrong with that. OK, um, I wanted to get a little bit of, about the University of Chicago

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and that kind of, you know. Uh, the social kind of situation. Uh, apart, you know, from the, the things like blacks couldn't, uh, uh, uh, swim in the swimming pool, you know. As a result of that. They could not make blacks take R O T C

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R J M until the war came along. It was a different story, but personally. I never met Much discrimination in Indiana. I had the most racist teacher, they tell me, in Indiana, who always gave me A plus. Um. And by the way, He was responsible. He's,

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he's followed me everywhere. He was responsible for my uh scholarship at the University of Chicago because The dean Of the division of Humanities was his student and believe it or not, one of the men who sat on my doctor's committee. At Michigan State. Was one of

00:31:25.160 - 00:31:43.400

his graduate students. So everywhere I've gone, Will Hale has, has followed me. He got me jobs, but now they tell me that he was cruel to other blacks, but uh. That I don't think I would have been wrong with him if I'd known what his reputation

00:31:43.400 - 00:31:58.359

had been, Mr. Washington. Who taught at Lincoln High School. Went to Indiana University And after I had been a student of Mr. Hale's, he told me that when he was a student of Mr. Hale's, Mr. Hale made him sit in the back of the room. Mr.

00:31:58.520 - 00:32:18.189

Hale had me sit on the front seat, and there would be days when he talked only to me. So I, I never experienced it. Uh So you went to The three universities Indiana, Chicago, and Michigan State. Well, Wisconsin too for, uh, quite a while. Well, I

00:32:18.189 - 00:32:33.079

have more than a semester's work at Wisconsin. And then you came back here to teach immediately after you got your PhD. Oh, no, I was teaching all the while. I was teaching at Lin High School and I got it. That's right, you said. Yeah. See, it

00:32:33.079 - 00:32:46.060

was all done in the summertime, uh, until I got done with the dissertation, and I, I wrote back here. All that went through the mail back, that's why it took so long, back and forth. On the other hand, Uh, I'm happy about it because he, I

00:32:46.060 - 00:32:58.020

didn't have him meddling with me, you know, uh, have to go on and sit for hours the way they do at universities on this stage. I never had that. It went through the mail and he, he take his time and work over it. I, I have

00:32:58.020 - 00:33:16.170

two Germans at Geist in Heist, and they were there, uh, Geist mainly. Hey there. And, uh, When it was through. Let me go back just a second before we go on to what you've done since you got your PhD. Let's talk about the Air Force a

00:33:16.170 - 00:33:32.530

little bit. Where did you go when you were in the Air Force? Uh, well, I stayed right here in, in, in the states in, uh, Jefferson Barracks outside St. Louis. Um-hum. You know, that was a very delightful part of my life. I didn't think so then,

00:33:33.000 - 00:33:48.869

but when I think back on it, I, I. You know, I've usually been able to get just what I want. Um-hum. And do just what I want, not no, I don't know. What I would attribute that to, could you, could you, do you? Could you answer

00:33:48.869 - 00:34:01.819

that? Why? I'm usually able to get what I want. But when I was in the Air Force, when I think back on things I did. Um-hum. I got what I wanted. I, uh, had extra clothes down in Saint Louis. Um-hum. And I'd get to go into

00:34:01.819 - 00:34:18.560

town whenever I wanted to go into town. I gave tests. That's all I really did all the time. I was, I was a testing expert. Um-hum. In, uh, the Air Force. And I think I drilled maybe maybe 2 years, maybe, maybe a month. I got to

00:34:18.560 - 00:34:37.689

meet all the top generals. I didn't have much rank. I wasn't interested in that. But, uh. Were you, were you, you weren't an officer. I'm not a carpal. Uh-huh. And when we start talking about all the personnel. Leaving Jefferson Barracks and going overseas and I knew

00:34:37.689 - 00:35:01.639

it was time for me to, my blood pressure was bothering me all the time anyway, and I, I got out. Uh-huh. Uh, how was the, how was the Air Force for blacks. You won't believe it. Uh, yes, in, in a way, yeah. When I think back,

00:35:01.649 - 00:35:17.270

though, on, For example, how would you like to live in these barracks and not be able to use the toilet back there? The white boys who lived in the next barrack would be having difficulty with their toilet, so you had to go to the next barrack,

00:35:17.310 - 00:35:30.639

and they came over and use yours. How do you like that. I had worked in the classification center with the white fellows, and we blacks who worked there could not use the toilet there. Um. That kind of thing. And, uh, I would like to get up

00:35:30.639 - 00:35:41.520

in the middle of the night to go and take shots and they would get you up to go and take those shots, and you'd be there first, but you'd have to wait an hour until the white boys came. They got their shots first. Um-hum. Now, I'm

00:35:41.520 - 00:36:02.850

sure this wasn't true everywhere, but it's true Jefferson Barracks. It's terrible. And yet, After that was done with. I pretty much had my way. Mhm I really did. I pretty much had my way. I, I did what I wanted to do. So you came back to,

00:36:03.010 - 00:36:19.780

you know, after your PhD, you're living, living in Kansas City. How long did you teach at Lincoln before you went to Central? I must have been about 10 years, 48 to about 50 now, about 11 years. It was 11 years. Yeah, as I said before. And

00:36:19.780 - 00:36:34.929

then you went from there to the junior college. Well that was the that was to the old Metropolitan Junior College. No, it was the Kansas City Junior College. It was part of Kansas City School District. See, I went there as their first black teacher. Uh, GT

00:36:34.929 - 00:36:49.350

Bryant went there as their first administrator, and I went as their first black teacher. Was it, was it because of discrimination that you weren't able to move into a college position, you know, sooner than that? Well, you know, I, I, I, I, well, yes, the only

00:36:49.350 - 00:37:06.320

college that I could have taught in would have been there are UMKC. I came back to help my mother and my stepfather with my brothers and sisters. They were living here and, uh, after the war. The job he had was not a particularly good job, and

00:37:06.320 - 00:37:26.000

I just came home and stayed here. And, and I, I, I, I, I had, I could have gone elsewhere. Um-hum. And, uh, I just stayed until they all died, my brothers and sisters, uh, went to school. I have a brother now who is, uh, who has

00:37:26.000 - 00:37:43.989

a degree in electrical engineering. He is not, he is a director for IBM in California. Those are his daughters. He named his oldest, this young, this middle girl after me. Her name is Jerry Lynn, and I'm, she is brilliant. And there is the youngest and the,

00:37:44.000 - 00:37:57.939

the, the devil. You can see what he did after my mother died. She came along looking exactly like my mother. Uh, he, she, she's born after my mother had died, and he named her, and, and they babied her, and she, she's bringing too, but she's a

00:37:57.939 - 00:38:19.500

little devil. This is the, this is my nephew, by, uh, my sister. I don't know whether he is over there, and this of course is my brother's oldest daughter. So how many children were there in your family? 4. I think that me and these three, I

00:38:19.500 - 00:38:42.659

have two half brothers and a half sister. Um-hum. Which of those? Who knows. OK, um. What was the junior college like in Kansas City Junior College. A type of school we were students at the University of Chicago. It really was that type. It was excellent. Well,

00:38:42.860 - 00:38:59.969

uh, listen. Harvard wasn't a better school in the first two years than that school was when I went there. I'm not gonna say blacks have brought it down. It has, it has changed and it should have changed. Because it was not meeting the needs of a

00:38:59.969 - 00:39:24.129

lot of people out here in the community. You could go to college, you see. The function of the community college is To prepare students for work and prepare students for transfer and very importantly to help students catch up, we know this from what the University of

00:39:24.129 - 00:39:51.459

California at Berkeley says. There Best juniors and seniors. Are not their own freshmen and sophomores but those that come to them from the junior colleges. Uh-huh. The ketchup This is what many people do not realize about so-called disadvantaged blacks with proper training to catch up quickly.

00:39:52.419 - 00:40:06.870

But they don't catch up when you put uh teachers over them, especially white teachers who are looking down on them and feeling that they cannot do. If you have teachers who will challenge them, they catch up quickly and by we have students who leave Lincoln High

00:40:06.870 - 00:40:27.800

School right now. Who could not go to UMKC and make it as freshmen. They can come to junior college. They can go to UMKC and make it as juniors though they're caught up. Um, What about UFC and that school is trash. That school is fine students.

00:40:30.139 - 00:40:48.639

The department out there is nothing. I look at that course on that for a, for a university in these times to be offering no more courses than that. Mhm The course offerings of the school are pitiful. So do you think it's generally a poor school? Yes

00:40:48.639 - 00:41:08.469

and no, they are good students. The students out there, you see, they are learning. Now, that school isn't likely to produce any scholars though. Um, because it does, it doesn't do enough to develop students' minds. There I mean, there, there are hardly any really first rate

00:41:08.649 - 00:41:24.699

scholars out there. Mhm. I've never been to a school where there were not first-rate scholars. When I went to the University of Indiana, I had a history teacher who was a fellow of the Royal Historical Society. Another history teacher in that department was a fellow of

00:41:24.699 - 00:41:46.439

the Royal Historical Society, and of course in Chicago they were all famous. That's right, yeah, you wouldn't be teaching there unless you were outstanding. They were all famous. Everybody I had there was outstanding, well known. Michigan State, few of those. Quite outstanding. In Wisconsin, they were

00:41:46.439 - 00:42:04.860

practically all out there. I mean, people. Of, uh, uh, whose names are just known through the field. If you, if you've done in American literature, more than likely you have, uh, used some reader edited by Harry Hayden Clark. Now Harry Hayden Clark at the University of

00:42:04.860 - 00:42:26.570

Wisconsin had only a master's degree. Uh-huh. He knew everything. Like Miles Hanley, whom I had in Wisconsin, that man spoke 17 languages. I had him for Beowulf. When I left him and went to Michigan State, well I knew more about the next Anglo-Saxon course the teacher

00:42:26.570 - 00:42:44.129

knew. But the man said so he said, oh my God, I could eat you, and then you had Miles Hanley. Mhm. Uh, EMKC. You're on the staff there. You have been on the staff there. Why? and for what reason are you on the staff there if

00:42:44.129 - 00:43:00.689

it's a, if it's a, uh, Farnsworth, Robert Farnsworth. You know, he'd fallen from grace. At one time he was the leader of COR, you know, and when they, when the blacks took over COR, he sort of left COR. And at one time he was quite a

00:43:00.689 - 00:43:17.620

member of Fellowship House. Now he's not dealing with them anymore. Back in the 60s, he, you know, he. He had disidentted the blacks and I like, he likes to think he's liberal. He is not. Anyway, he came to me and said that I had more credibility

00:43:17.620 - 00:43:32.860

than he did. I kind of thought then, as I do now, that he'd just been made head of the department and wanted to get rid of the course, and uh now he's no longer head of the department. He wants his course back. He does know quite

00:43:32.860 - 00:43:51.389

a bit. About lack of literature. I, I, I would not quarrel with, uh, Uh, what he knows, I would quarrel with the substance of what he knows and how he would be able to, to, to see it. That, that is, I would question his teaching blues

00:43:51.659 - 00:44:06.969

to some blacks, and I would question his ability to teach, teach the Negro spiritual, and I would question his ability to teach someone like Leroy Jones to blacks. But anyway. He asked me to teach it. I wasn't particularly interested in teaching out there because at the

00:44:06.969 - 00:44:21.530

same time, William Jewell College and asked me to come down and teach it, and then Park College. I gave the job to Park College. I taught this course at the Art Institute and I gave that away, uh, but I just wanted an extra class. I could

00:44:21.530 - 00:44:36.820

teach it at. Penn Valley and I thought I would go out. I see now that that was a mistake and I should have forced them then to get a black full time. They had a black full time, but he wouldn't teach black literature. You may have

00:44:36.820 - 00:44:53.199

to remember him when he's out there. I don't know whether he was there. He, he got mad and left and told him one day, I'm going back down south and help my people and uh. That's why I, I, I, I, I, I, I've taught it because,

00:44:53.459 - 00:45:04.219

uh, it troubles me to have to go out there on a Saturday morning. There are too many other things I could be doing. I, I'm not going to say I haven't enjoyed it because I have enjoyed it. There are good students who are in that class.

00:45:04.340 - 00:45:25.840

There are good students in the class I have now. So what about, um, You know But there must be some kind of more intrinsic purpose for teaching. You know, black literature, I mean some kind of commitment. Well, there's a commitment. Don't forget now. I'm an English

00:45:25.840 - 00:45:46.219

major and, um, Well, you know, I had taught American literature until I went to, uh, junior college. Uh, really, my great interest in American literature came late, uh, because most of my, uh, training had been in English literature and linguistics. I had courses in American literature,

00:45:46.270 - 00:46:04.600

to be sure, but when I began teaching at the junior college, I read more widely and read more widely, and don't forget the black literature. is an area of American literature. Oh yes, I, I have a commitment to, to, uh, to teaching it because black people

00:46:04.600 - 00:46:25.939

have something to say and they have some rather unusual ways of saying these things and it intrigues me and interests me and. I like fantastic song, uh, people, who in your mind is the most interesting black author? Who are the several most interesting? Oh, it's no

00:46:25.939 - 00:46:41.500

question in my mind, uh, about Langston Hughes being the most interesting. He's not the, if you take any category, I could not say he is the greatest black person in that category. I don't think he's the greatest black poet. He's a very competent black poet. He's

00:46:41.500 - 00:46:57.979

not. Well, he may be the greatest black humorist. I don't know of any black who surpass Simple. I don't know if it, I don't know many American writers who surpass Simple, but, uh, uh, he's not the greatest black dramatist, but he's, I don't know of any

00:46:57.979 - 00:47:17.729

who, who are much better than he. He is so versatile in so many areas. I don't know of any American writer. White or black? Who's who's proficient as a poet. As a short story writer, as a, uh, as a novelist, as a dramatist, he has two

00:47:17.729 - 00:47:36.820

very significant autobiographies. And if you, if you've ever read all that stuff he's done for children with art abundance, the collecting of materials, uh, he's translated, uh, uh, uh, Spanish novels into American English. He's translated African, I don't, African lit writings into American English. I don't

00:47:36.820 - 00:47:58.290

know of anybody who is more proficient than him, so. He's interesting for that respect. He's interesting because he has perspective. He never goes off the deep end. That, Um Double view view he's always able to see both sides of the issue. And when you say both

00:47:58.290 - 00:48:16.669

sides, you mean the white and black and you attempt to do it. OK, what about, um, Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man? So many people. Oh, that's marvelous. But you see, he did only one. He put everything in there. That's that's not just, I get sick of saying

00:48:16.669 - 00:48:36.570

that's one of the best black novels. That's one of the very best pieces of American fiction. That novel belongs alongside Moby Dick. It's marvelous. It's marvelous. But. That apart from his uh critical works, he has those shadow that cri a cri a criticism which shows that

00:48:36.570 - 00:48:58.610

he's a good critic. That's all these short stories aren't particularly good. I don't think he's a greater writer than Richard Richard Wright, no, no, because, you see. There's more too, right? They're more size. You're right. See, I, I, Ellison could never have done something like white

00:48:58.610 - 00:49:16.429

man. Listen, those later things are Wright, Wright did, uh, the, the, the, uh. The nonfiction work of the right and by the way, Native Son is not a bad novel, and I don't know that uh Ellison could have done something like Uncle Tom's Children because some

00:49:16.429 - 00:49:31.570

of those sketches are just marvelous and there are many, many sides to write. And uh I think, I don't know that right. You see, if you're gonna talk about the single word. I don't know the Wright has a novel, uh, any fiction that is more skillfully

00:49:31.570 - 00:49:49.949

put together than, uh, Invisible man. But that's all he did. And I, and I don't know that you, you come up with one work and I got he wrote that, uh, he well he completed in 1952, put it out in 1952. That's been 24 years ago

00:49:51.080 - 00:50:13.050

and that's not gonna be anymore. What about the um Kind of dilemma for him dilemma, for instance, that Otis Cleaver sets up between Richard Wright and James Baldwin. Uh, well, uh, you know, uh, and one has, I, I keep looking at the, uh, Cleavage prejudicial statement.

00:50:14.070 - 00:50:28.790

Against, uh, Baldwin there may be something there. I think, I think, I think one of the things though that bothered Cleaver too much was Baldwin's homosexuality. I don't know why he's so interested in Baldwin's homosexuality, but he may be right when he says that Baldwin wants

00:50:28.790 - 00:50:50.270

to be white. Um. And does not know it. That's kind of tough to hang in Baldwin. And yet, You know, he argues that Baldwin is mainly arguing. Against white man. Why did you do this to me? Um. Now why did you do this to us. Um-hum.

00:50:50.510 - 00:51:10.090

I'm not so sure that, but now sometimes I get that feeling. But now when it comes to eloquent prose writing, and none of these writings can surpass Baldwin, uh, Ellison can't pass Baldwin, I don't know that I would consider. The Invisible Man, a better novel than

00:51:10.090 - 00:51:32.669

Go Telling on the Mountain. Go Telling on the Mountain is every bit as complicated, every bit as subtle. And bigger in view. Much bigger. The identity problem is there too. So, you have these things in your head, you know. What about B and Ellison and black

00:51:32.669 - 00:51:53.750

writing, black literature. Um-hum. English literature. Um, And to import these things to, to, to students is, is important. Why don't you yourself write? I mean, we, we don't have the time because you know I'm all typing this NAACP, uh, stuff. Uh, unfortunately, if I, if I

00:51:53.750 - 00:52:07.209

ever go down as a writer, it'll, it'll probably be based on the articles I write in the call for the NAACP. If I ever got the time to, to, to write on somebody be on Nat Turner. And uh I haven't done enough reading on that yet.

00:52:07.750 - 00:52:21.389

Uh, I, I haven't, I haven't done enough studying uh studying of mysticism yet. Do I have some of my books here on mysticism? Yes, you'll see some that I've been looking at, uh, in preparation of our, uh, uh, treating him. Oh, if Gene if somebody could

00:52:21.389 - 00:52:40.449

have got Gene Toumer to write on that term, See, Gene Touma was a mystic, a good yesian mystic, my, what a book that would have been. Now there is the only person around. You really could have. Treated. Hm. But he got so busy in his later

00:52:40.449 - 00:53:01.000

life, uh, looking at white folks and their problems and, and trying to run away from blacks. But you see, here is a true mystic. And a man uh who's interested in black writers. I, I certainly wish someone could have got him because that needs to be

00:53:01.000 - 00:53:20.360

done. A major work on Nat Turner needs to be done. And if I ever get the time to, to write, I don't have the time, um. I'm doing all these topical things. I really do think that my pen for the NAACP is more important right now

00:53:20.360 - 00:53:38.739

to black folks than my writing something interpreting these writers because there are other people who can do that who would not be writing for the NAACP. What about the NAACP? That's on the local scene. You know what, you're the public, the information, Public information, uh, public,

00:53:39.580 - 00:53:58.090

uh, relations director. OK. And, uh, We do more here than you could imagine. Right. You see right there. Is a job complaint that a black man has sent us. We get those all the time. We go on them. See, we don't say anything about that. It's

00:53:58.090 - 00:54:12.939

personal. If you came to us with a job complaint. And we went on there and we've gone and put the fire under those people and made them hire black that. We don't have to say anything publicly about that. You, you'd never know about that. Now that's

00:54:12.939 - 00:54:31.719

the size of man just lifting in the door on that telephone at night. I'm advising black folks about what to do. Oh, I can't rest. Somebody called me from the jail. Um-hum. And I know that what I tell them is effective because they'll call me later

00:54:31.719 - 00:54:51.149

and said this is what you said, didn't got what you want. That is what I wanted. And That we have the bigger things we are doing like that we're fighting the school board now if the NAACP. Hadn't come out in full force 3 weeks ago, they

00:54:51.149 - 00:55:05.219

were gonna squeeze Edward Fields in their superintendent of school. Do you see what he did last week? It was he who removed all those blacks. And I'm telling you, I'm doing an article next week telling I'm laying it out. I know now it was done by

00:55:05.219 - 00:55:22.760

telephone. Like I kill it with these ministers. See, he, he has these ministers now writing. We ought to have Edward Fields. I'm writing something now Me when I when I hang him out from the when I destroy that *** and he needs to be destroyed. Um

00:55:24.189 - 00:55:51.639

The irony of it. Let me show you something. Of almost cruelty of it. Here Mrs. Arm is receiving an honor, and if you read it over there, she was the first minority woman appointed as for the record. She's one he demoted last week. Now the cruelty

00:55:51.639 - 00:56:17.689

of it, when it comes out tomorrow, she's demoted. It'll be in tomorrow. Star. Uh-huh. Probably in next week's call. He didn't demote her because she's that's Deirdre Thomas's mother who she's in that mess with him. We had to keep her, And Ed Fields from recommending a

00:56:17.689 - 00:56:38.139

white man downtown for two promotions in one year. I wrote an article. I said he must be able to walk the waters then and turn the water into wine, the wine, uh, water into wine. That blacks under her, she wasn't promoting at all. Um-hum. Not yet

00:56:38.229 - 00:56:57.159

this. Edward Fields is only down there because the NAACP fought to get him down there and the former superintendent of school was going to fire her and we went down there and put the fire under him to keep her her job and she and he set

00:56:57.159 - 00:57:15.139

out to destroy Mrs. Hill. Mhm. Now, do you see, we spend our time. Was that letter for the mailbox when you came? I didn't see one. Did Julia come and got it. See, I've got a letter for her to do next week and and my article

00:57:15.139 - 00:57:29.110

too, and a letter for her to do. Much, much with you that you see that she's written. If you read her open letter to Sam Carton next week, I wrote it. If it wasn't up over the mailbox, so she picked it up on her way home

00:57:29.110 - 00:57:48.479

from church. So you're fighting these, you know, you're fighting with the NAACP on these various fronts. Oh, and not only that, I'm gonna find it too, because I sit on the park board and I have stuff like that. Let me find that too and get that

00:57:48.479 - 00:58:08.360

right back in your now because that complaint's coming up tomorrow. OK, uh, to, to, to, to write. You really don't have time I really don't have time to write articles. And I leave that to people who have the time and, and won't do other things. Um.

00:58:09.449 - 00:58:31.459

So your interest is more in terms of The kind of activist or activity. Oh, I've always felt that that's what's wrong with most universities, scholarship. ought to come down and show itself in action. Mhm. These, these teachers sitting in these schools, writing all these scholarly books

00:58:31.840 - 00:58:51.479

on how to write. Many of them couldn't get published themselves, really, otherwise. They would do it. That's right. Uh, you see, my feeling about a great writer is if you're gonna teach Shakespeare, make him live. It's just not something for, uh, for a book and this.

00:58:52.750 - 00:59:11.030

Is where the average white person is going to have difficulty. Trying to teach the black right. They can't make white writers live. Then they can't make the black writer live. So, writing and literature is not just for you. Know, a kind of cerebral thing, but it's

00:59:11.030 - 00:59:31.459

about. Activity. No, it's activity. It is. It's about life. It is about life. It is activity. And until teachers are able to do that, the students are not gonna make students love it. Man is by his nature, poor Eddie. There's no such thing as boys not

00:59:31.459 - 00:59:46.070

liking poems. They don't like the stuff, they don't like what teachers are doing for them. And Shakespeare wouldn't like it either if he came here and found people sitting up in the classroom reading his plays. He wrote those to be seen on stage. You should never

00:59:46.070 - 01:00:12.669

redeem it. And reading them bad did that. Poems are meant to be read loud. Sound is very important. OK. What do you do? What do you, what courses do you teach at junior college? Do you teach at. The most lowly ones now. Oh, remedial reading, I'm

01:00:12.669 - 01:00:26.610

having a bowl. I'm able to to to teach students to read. Kansas City School District couldn't teach them to read. That's what Jimmy Reed Thomas calls herself a specialist in and Dr. Fields called themselves a specialist in, and the students were back there received. Let me

01:00:26.610 - 01:00:41.770

tell you what was the most. Impressive thing I have ever had happened to me. Two years ago it was. During the strike, I forgot that. I have a little room back there because I came here one evening and some boys that broke me in here. I

01:00:41.770 - 01:01:00.870

have the, Some bars over the window back there now, but. I had a student, sort of thuggish kind of boy. You look I didn't know where he went to school. At that time, I just, I did. I wish I had, I have a, I, I have

01:01:00.870 - 01:01:17.040

a basic reader. With nothing but stuff but black, there is, there is a company that puts out a reader for adults with articles in James Baldwin and nothing but blacks that I have a general reader. The students, see, I have white students, those who don't want

01:01:17.040 - 01:01:31.290

to buy the black reader. Get by, you know, the white students almost always buy a black reader too. Sometimes they buy both. All right, that, that's a self-instructional thing. You read that and you answer questions and put in prefixes and you can look back and see

01:01:31.290 - 01:01:46.969

what the answers are. That's not the bulk of that course. I teach them how to break paragraphs down, but the bulk of that course is what they want to read. I have men who read the Playboy. See, we take magazines. I have all kinds of magazines

01:01:46.969 - 01:02:07.540

out of the college now. I, uh, we take. Playboy? Yeah, I do have one that I, cause I brought it home to look at it. Sports Illustrated. She comes to me over at the school now. I do know that black men will read this. I have

01:02:07.540 - 01:02:23.840

taught some how they can learn to read by reading ads. There are words in there they don't know, many, many words in there they don't know. Most would know impress what impress means. And some of the uh deep seated, a compound word. I have shown them

01:02:23.840 - 01:02:46.139

how they can use ads to read. I have, uh, essence for the women. Like we take about 12 different types of magazines now, and I, and, uh, students. Can bring anything else they want to read. They can bring the history text in there. Um-hum. They have,

01:02:46.280 - 01:03:02.850

by the way, they have to cut the articles out and analyze them for me on, on, in a reading notebook. After a magazine is two months old, then they can have it. Um-hum. And they can cut it out. Now, you know, That play bar goes right

01:03:02.850 - 01:03:16.060

away when it gets there, don't you? Oh, right away, right away, and they're reading it. The key to reading is that people read what they want to read. Why are they having trouble down there in the schools? You can't use a common reader. It doesn't reach

01:03:16.060 - 01:03:32.050

enough people. Little boys are interested in reading what little girls are interested in reading. So, uh, Do you, do you try to get them to read, you know, what they want to read at first and then, you know, structure them into more complicated kind of things?

01:03:32.129 - 01:03:48.580

Hum-um. I know they always read what they want to read, but all the while, I am showing them how to get the ideas out of a paragraph. Um-hum. And I'm showing them how to, uh, work out meanings from prefixes. Um-hum. Right now we're working on figurative

01:03:48.580 - 01:04:07.449

language. We've done the simile And the metaphor. By the way, I showed them how to construct the paragraph. Themselves we, we put them together in class and then I show them that in their books in their magazines, newspapers, the paragraph put together like that and when

01:04:07.449 - 01:04:24.379

they put them on a sheet of paper for me they have to do all that. Topic sentence, and then you have to summarize. Well, let me go back again to the NAACP. Julie Hill is the president of the NAACP. How long have you been involved with

01:04:24.379 - 01:04:44.280

the NAACP? Well, she, since she's been president, she really, I, I didn't do these things until, uh, Julia became president. And then, you see, I think maybe, uh, uh, this was something to take the place of my. Mother, my stepfather just died. Um. And, um, Uh,

01:04:44.389 - 01:05:09.679

she got me to, uh, start writing things and, uh, see, she and I have similar temperaments and she is a remarkable woman. She's Korea. Um. Your, your activity now. You haven't always been as activist, you know, as much of an activist as you are. I indirectly,

01:05:09.719 - 01:05:26.689

and that's why she said she asked me to do this. Yes, I have. Uh, I never came out like this. Oh, I used to have a running battle with Clarence Kelly. And the police department through the mail. Uh, even back to April for the riots. I

01:05:26.689 - 01:05:36.919

would write articles and white people would write me back and threaten to kill me. Oh, they've done that here. Well, I've got telephone calls. I'm going to be killed. They're going to kill me and so on. And I used to write letters to speak in the

01:05:36.919 - 01:05:53.139

public mind and I was, I listen, I was an activist over there at Central. I used to tell Mr. Boy what he wasn't going to do to me, and Lincoln High School too. But for that was for me. I didn't do very much for black people.

01:05:56.489 - 01:06:11.580

Julia's been doing things for black people. She's responsible for all those places opening up downtown for us before we had a public accommodations model. Um-hum. She led a group. So how, so you've been involved with them since what date? Oh, I've been a member of the

01:06:11.580 - 01:06:25.939

NAACP for years. See, that's what she said, that she noticed that whenever she'd write me for money for something, it's come right, to become first. And she said that nobody who did that. Um-hum. Would do that because she had an interest. Um. And she knew that

01:06:25.939 - 01:06:42.699

I could write. And uh, But you know what's not supposed to happen? I, she and I have written so many articles. Um-hum. Together and put them together and I've written, I've got her so now she can write just like me. She couldn't do that at one

01:06:42.699 - 01:06:55.149

time. I can, I can throw them together more quickly than she can now. Um. But she's got so now don't tell me how people can't influence each other. She's got so now she can ape my style. Um-hum. She can sit down and write, and I can

01:06:55.149 - 01:07:09.139

ape hers. I see, that's why I did that. It'll sound like her. Um-hum. I don't, I don't have my words. I'll, I'd say it differently. Occasionally, if I put something in, it'll sound like me. And she knows the people know that it's. Maybe you should take

01:07:09.139 - 01:07:43.229

it out. Um-hum. Think so. OK, uh, the park commission, park board. Oh, that's terrible. One of the most racist institutions, uh, uh, in the city government. And I sit there as a commissioner. I have never had anything to say. About hiring anybody. Mhm. I am. That's

01:07:43.229 - 01:08:01.169

why I'm going to bring that complaint up tomorrow. I must find that. Because I got them scared down there. Before we have park board meeting tomorrow, Ms. Lili's. That old white racist wants to talk with me. Those black people have a good complaint against her. Um-hum.

01:08:01.820 - 01:08:24.100

There was a job. That a white man had. Director one. When he left, And I put pressure on her. And told her I wanted to see a black person if the job was downgraded to director too. I didn't even know it had taken place until I

01:08:24.100 - 01:08:43.938

got the transcripts directed to. She did that. Is there some kind of philosophy that you developed, you know, from all of the things that you're involved in all of the, the books that you've read and the teaching and the experiences and the, you know. You know,

01:08:44.008 - 01:09:03.189

having to live in this country for, for, for 5-60 years in the city, you know, there's some kind of philosophy that you developed it which kind of sums up, you know, uh. It's actually very simply. I think each individual ought to work hard. To arrive at

01:09:03.189 - 01:09:27.769

an understanding of what he believes to be the right thing to do and then do it if he has to die. Once. You know you are right. Will you pursue. Right, no matter what other people say or do, that is why I'm condemning Doctor Fields. I

01:09:27.769 - 01:09:42.979

know many people are gonna say, well, he was a acting superintendent and the board wanted the motions and he had to do it to keep his job, but then you give up your job you still doing it. Mhm. Yeah, do you remember what Elliot Richardson did

01:09:42.979 - 01:09:58.319

before he'd fired those people that Nixon wanted him to fire? He gave up the job. He gave up the job. He's back, isn't he? And as a captain, so you don't go down. People admire you. He is the only one who came out of that Richard

01:09:58.959 - 01:10:22.459

Nixon administration smelling like a rose. He's still tall. To get the job. You don't have to make you do what is wrong. If there's, if there was anything that you would say to, you know. Kids. Yeah What would you say to them? I would say to

01:10:22.649 - 01:10:49.740

kids, That they all. To Learn how to read. And right And compute. And think. And be mannerly and go out and demand of the world after that. That's all they need. But when, when you are not mannerly, you give these races an opportunity to say that

01:10:49.740 - 01:11:10.250

you can't hold the job now and when you can't. Read and write and compute. You'll give the racist an opportunity to say that you don't belong there, but After you have learned your basic skills, you know what you're doing. And you'd learn how to behave yourself

01:11:10.609 - 01:11:38.839

decently. You have a right. To demand the world, and that doesn't mean that you have to demand the world. In soft tones. Um-hum. Any human being. Who has not learned how to express righteous indignation is not a human being, really. There are things that go on.

01:11:41.779 - 01:12:00.359

Against which you should be incensed, you have to speak out. Seems to me to be a rather existential position. Well, that's an existential. Means something about About being engaged or something. Well, you have to make a choice in that sense. See, people have to realize that

01:12:00.359 - 01:12:17.459

now, the, the existentialists are right there. There is no such thing in life as not making a joke. We have to. If you say I will do nothing in the face of wrong. You've made a choice, and you've made a bad choice. Oh, you have chosen.

01:12:18.390 - 01:12:44.419

When black people refuse to register and to go out and vote. They have voted. I haven't made a choice. Mhm I, I said pretty clearly what I, I, I feel in an article I wrote two weeks ago, what, what Thoreau said. When a man Is right

01:12:45.370 - 01:13:00.509

And he has to stand alone. He then constitutes a majority of one. It seems to me a very profound statement, Dr. Cameron. I think this would be a good place to end the tape, don't you? Thank you very much.