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This is Mbimbe Milton Smith interviewing Judge Clymer. The date is August 24th, 1976. We're interviewing Judge Clammer at his home at 3101 Meyer. OK, Judge Clemmer, when and where were you born? I was born in Yosha, Missouri. Newton County and it's a small city and county

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seat down in the southwestern part of the state. Joplin Reserve, which many people know about, is 20 miles away. OK, what year was that that you were born? 1910. 1910, so. He is 66 years old. And I'm 65, I'll be 66 in December because it was

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the end of the year when I came along in December. OK. Would you talk about, um, Neosho County, the first, uh, Uh, years of your life that you can remember. Early, uh, grade school experiences. Well, we had, of course, the segregated schools and they. There there

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was a little red schoolhouse as I remember it. It was a brick schoolhouse and set on a hill, and we lived near there. We, uh, didn't live very far away, I suppose 3 blocks away. Uh-huh. It, uh, Sometimes I can recall my father carrying me on

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his back up there in the wintertime because like we had heavy snows then, probably not, but the, the streets were cleared away like it would be in a real city. We live sort of it's in the city, but it's kind of on the outskirts of it

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kind of across the track really is what it was. Uh, what elementary school did you go to? I think it was called the Lincoln School, Lincoln School. So, We're talking about uh 1915 when you start the school there but who were things like for blacks in,

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in, uh In Newton County? Yes. What were things like for blacks in Newton County in 1915? Well, really, I, I don't know what, what it was like, but it seemed to me from what I saw that it was pretty fair for us. There was, um, a

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man who had taught my mother who had become the postman in, in the town, one black postman, and that was sort of unusual. And of course he was sort of a leader. His name was Glen Benning, Glenn Denny, and um. The Negro people, of course they

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were farmers and they worked at the bank as porters and they did, uh, well, what we all did in those days. We were servants of some kind and uh that was it. My father was. Oh he was the fellow that would take men out to. Lay

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ties and they were building railroads to Kansas City Southern down to into Texas and. In Louisiana and he would uh recruit men to lay tie so he he did fairly well when he was doing that. It was hard work, of course, tie laying the man had

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to tear a tie on his shoulder, you know, and lay it and. Put it down. Uh, what did your mother do? My mother was a school teacher and she's taught in the little town of Lutonia before she married my father. She didn't do anything after that

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and, uh, Papa is, I said, he was, uh, he did this sort of thing, but he was an all around kind of. He was a carpenter and he could, he was a mason and he was, he was a farmer. He could, he could really raise, uh,

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prize things it was watermelons he was raising. They were the biggest ones around and uh he was a sort of all around fellow. OK, uh, You've got, At least, 6 years of education that you're going through, uh, I mean 6 years after high school with your

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bachelor's degree and your law degree and I mean I'm wondering about the kind of, the kind of things that your parents said to you which influenced you as far as education were they saying things to you at that early age of the elementary school age to

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to make you aspire to education? Well, my mother's background being a teacher, of course, she always would say to me, baby, I want you to have an education. That's very important. Um-hum. And she did that all of her lifetime. Um-hum. In fact, I had dropped out

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of school in 1929, I was out 5 years, but in my mind always was what Mother had said to me and when she died in 1934. And after her death, I then. Got a chance to go back to school when I went to Howard and uh

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in those days you could get 60 hours of college credits and then go to law school. You can't do that now. You must have, have a full time. Maybe there's some schools that will take you the 90, 90 hours and you get a combination degree which

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I could have done, but. After having lost the five years, I wanted to get out and finish and so I did go on through and came out of the law school in 1939. Howard Howard Law School. Now prior to that I'd gone to Lincoln University and

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I actually finished the high school there in 1928 and one year of college and. Came back for the 2nd year of college and the depression came, which you can't remember hardly I'm sure but you've heard about it and so I had to go back home to

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Saint Louis where we. And help my parents, which I did. Uh OK, that was, that was the circumstances you're dropping out of Lincoln. Who were the circumstances of you going to high school at Lincoln High? That, that's there again, see, I got smarter. I thought I

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was anyway, and I stopped high school after I had about uh 2 years and uh. There was a florist I worked for in the afternoons. I always did some kind of work. Working for as far as cleaning up and all and they got a new truck

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and uh they wanted me to be the delivery man for them and of course we continue to do the clean up too and I thought that was a good idea and actually what I wanted to do was drive a truck so I did that for a

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year and and my mother of course was after me about it and she she didn't think much of it. So that I went to Lincoln actually because my class in Sumner high school was a year ahead of me. It would be embarrassing to go to the

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school and then my class is a year ahead so she thought of going to Lincoln and so I did do that and uh I finished off though. Within a year and a summer, I went to summer school, took extra courses, and I got my, High school

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diploma in 192, the year I was supposed to in the summer school. You have any time in the service? No. I didn't go to service, but I worked for the government throughout the war. With the, well, it was the. Office production management and then it was

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the war production board and then finally we ended up as being the war manpower. So you were in Washington by this time, by the time of the Second World War. Yes, I had gone to Washington. I had been involved in after I got out of law

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school, came back to Saint Louis. I got involved in a program. We had what was called the Negro National Defense Committee, and it was set up in order to try to force the employers to take Negro workers and the schools to train Negroes, and we were

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reluctant to do either of these things. uh so it so happened the man who was in charge of this committee and incidentally all the Negro organizations, the smallest and the largest were members of it, and, uh, I got involved in that. He appointed me as chairman

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of the education committee. I began to work on the schools to see what they would do. My position was that the first place you should start and be the school. They had a duty to train. There was that we can't train people that they won't hire.

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You go out to the employer and say, Well, we want work, and they said, Oh, we'd hire you, but you're not trained. So you were in a double bind, a double bind. So we started off working on the schools and. I was able to get that

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done. I went step by step, of course I didn't miss anybody and finally got to the school board. We had documented everything that was necessary and gave each of the school board people the brief that we've written up. And as I made my statement. They begin

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to turn the pages so I know I had their attention. Incidentally, that same night, the papers had gotten hold of it and all the big employers were there, the US cartridge people, the Curtis Wright airplane people. There were some electric people, all of the big companies

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were there and, uh, There was a man on the board whose name is, uh, Mark Eagleton, father of Senator Eagle, very fine man, a good lawyer, and he began to question me and ask me whether or not I thought that uh spending this much money, which

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he thought we ought to do, we ought to do, would the people take advantage of it? And I told him there'd be a question in my mind that they would take advantage of it because we represented all the organized groups of Negroes in town. Actually we

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wouldn't have enough room for the people who'd want to. And I was right, and of course they voted to do it. Do you see, um, that kind of involvement with the schools and the push of the Negro Defense Fund as some kind of way being a

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precursor to the kind of thing that occurred in 1954 with the, with the uh school desegregation, Brown versus uh Topeka Board of Education and Topeka Board of Education versus Brown. Yes, this was a forerunner. The things we were doing was the forerunner of Brown, but do

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you think that he had already had some. You see, about 1938, the Gaines case, which began in Missouri, had come down. But what was the Gaines case? The Gaines case was a suit by a young Negro man in Saint Louis who sued the University of Missouri

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to allow him into law school. And at that time you went to a special school from Missouri. The state of Missouri paid your tuition because they wouldn't allow you to go to a school in Missouri. So your tuition was paid. That decision said that they had

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to either allow him in the school or set up a school for him. That was when they set up the Lincoln University Law School, which was in Saint Louis. I see. So actually there were, there were, there were cases before the Brown versus Board of Education.

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We had another famous case in Missouri, and this was Bluford against the Board of Ed. University of Missouri and that's Miss Lucille Bluford who, yeah, she used to Lu Bluford of the of the Kansas City. That's right. She used to be allowed into the school of

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journalism. There again they've set up a school of journalism which we still have running at Lincoln. Uh-huh. Well, did she eventually finish school at, at, uh, well, actually Bluford was a She, she was the plaintiff and there couldn't be any question about her qualifications because she

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had graduated out of TU as a. In in journalism, but as I understand it, she wanted to get a master's degree, I suppose in journalism and Missouri at that time and even today has one of the finest schools of journalism in the country, and that was

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what they were doing to attempting to make that open to her. So the school was set up at Lincoln, still operating. Do you know whether she pursued the course at Lincoln or or no, she didn't. No, she, she actually was a plaintiff and uh if they

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had granted the right to go to Missouri, she probably would have. But she did not want to go to Lincoln because she was already qualified. So that's what they gave there. It was not a master's degree school either. I see. OK. Um, So we didn't talk

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about high school very much. People who influenced you in high school or people who influenced you at Lincoln University or people who influenced you at Howard University. I would be interested in knowing, you know, about, about those people. Yes, there were a fair number of people.

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You and I think that that's the thing that we need to have today the caliber of teachers that I saw as I was growing up who will affect youngsters who, who youngsters are they're pliable and minimal and I think they need to have examples set for

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them and some of the teachers that I had were examples, you know, they, they looked the part, their manner. They, they had an interest in the youngsters. He would say to you, well, now I think you're going to fail if you don't get my word and

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call you in and show you what you were doing wrong. And of course if you wanted to do better, you'd do it. And this happened with me too. One man named Blue, Professor Blue at Lincoln, a fine man in English. I just wanted to find him.

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And then there was L. Simon Curtis. The high school is And Mrs. Tebow, you went to high school in Saint Louis. Yes, I was in high school two years there and then there was Mr. Thornton and Oliver Thornton, and then there was Mr. where was, where

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was Oliver Thornton? Well, he, he was a, he taught, um. Uh, manual training, but he, he just had a manner about him and, uh, where, where was he in Sumner High School Sumner High School in Saint Louis. And Hazel McDaniels T-bone was a a teacher. She

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taught us English and she, she was just a wonderful teacher. So you graduated from Sumner High. Well, you graduated from Lincoln High School. What, what year was this? This was in 1928, the summer school in 1928. I see. And you were, uh, 18 or so. Yeah,

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1717. Um, OK, uh, We talked about high school summer. We talked about, The years at Lincoln University. What were the years at Howard like for you? Yeah. They were real full years actually. Uh, when I got there, I felt that I shouldn't take the full course

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because I was rusty 5 years out of school, and I soon saw that I'd made a mistake because when I got the first grades I lay ahead of the youngsters in, in my classes. So then I quickened and took more courses, you see, and, uh, but

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I had some wonderful teachers there. There was. Well, Doctor Ralph Bunch taught me political science, so he was excellent. And then there was E. Franklin Fri, who's a great sociology teacher, and then we had a, Oh, OK. He's one of the, uh, Harlem Renaissance Negro writers

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of the Harlem Renaissance, and, uh, he's awesome, wasn't he also involved with the, uh, NAACP during the time of its inception, OK, I'm thinking of one of the Johnson brothers. Yes, the Johnson. But Elaine Locke was Elaine Locke was very, very important in the, in the

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Harlem Renaissance. Yes, he was, and he was a teacher of girls and then there's Doctor Charles Wesley who taught history. He, he later became great and the Wilberforce, as you may know. They, they just were excellent teachers there and then when I got to law school,

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we had some very fine men and incidentally, uh, I'd like to tell you this. We probably would not have had the quality of teachers if things were like they ought to be because it would have been grabbed off about that. Wanted to ask you about that.

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What about, you know, uh, I hear on the, on the radio, the advertisements for the, uh, Um, Negro college fund, you know. And, um, You know, some people would say that, Negro colleges these days are irrelevant that they're a thing of the past. How do you

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feel about that? Well, I don't think that at all. I think that the United Negro College Fund meets a very desperate need. It helps to keep these schools going for one thing, not all of the money that that comes from there, of course, but the fringe

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benefit money comes from the United Negro College Fund, and these schools are turned out actually so many of the leaders in this nation come from those kind of schools. Now they, they are schools that are private though. They are no state schools. Howard. And Lincoln, neither

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one of those because they were financed by neither one of them belongs to the United Negro because they were financed by the state and the need was not there but places like Morehouse. Oh, till it's, Bay in Texas. Ben, and there's about 33 of them, of

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course, and, uh, Wilberforce, I suppose the, the one, not the state school but the. A church school and then Lincoln in Pennsylvania would be another that would probably get money from it and uh Fisk. And just a number of schools that uh. It turned out good

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students and and leaders of our our country. I always have said that there were 4 schools that did a lot for Negro men, particularly Lincoln 4 schools that did a lot for Negro men. Who went to Lincoln in Pennsylvania turned out a lot of people who

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left there and then went to do something else. Thurs Marshall is one. He went to Lincoln. He went to Lincoln in Pennsylvania and then he came to Howard for his law and then there, there's, it's Morehouse. All kinds of fellows who come out of Morehouse that

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they become teachers and physicians and lawyers and you name it. Morehouse College has, has furnished that kind of am. And Phil, yeah, they, they, they, those schools have done an awful lot for us. Um, That brings us to something which is kind of. I know that

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you're on the, uh, board of curators at Lincoln University. Yeah. Um, How did you, how, how do you get, how do you get to be a member of that, of that board? Well, It's a it's a. Some politics to it, of course. Uh, the governor does

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make this point. And the way that it used to be, the people, there were 9 members of the board, and they were picked from various parts of the state. You'd have somebody from Kansas City area, and one from Saint Louis, and maybe from the south, the

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southwest part of the north, the central part of the state, and so on. Now that apparently does not have to be that way because our governor now, Governor Bond, has the appointed Governor Bond bond, a number of people from the same place. You have 3 people

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in from Jefferson City on the board. And uh that's unusual and uh uh there are 3 out of Saint Louis and then there is well. One lady from Colombia. I'm from here. Let's see one man from two people. You know, they, they, they, they've changed the

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way of picking them, but it's a sort of a political thing, uh, they, they try to pick, I believe, good people, and we have caused them to pick more people that went to Lincoln than used to be true. It used to be people, it was an

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honor to be on there. Your expenses are paid. There's no money paid you, but your expenses are paid, and it's an honor to have this sort of a position. And uh so they gave it out to people who'd been active in politics or they wanted to

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show a favor or something to them. But we have now on the board of Lincoln out of the line, we have 5 who went to the school. I'm 1. The president of the board is a fellow named Joseph McDuffie, a lawyer, and he's a double graduate

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of Lincoln. He graduated from the college and also the law school. A fellow named Julius Dix who is a. Uh, well, he's high in the Department of Education in Saint Louis, one of the superintendents of schools. And this is Johnetta Randolph Haley teaches at the Southern

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Illinois University. Not in Carbondale but somewhere near Saint Louis and then there's uh. Uh, this is Renfro who is with the Employment service in Columbia. She's a graduate. Um. Uh, then, of course, I'm the home, If we have forgot Oh, I need By climber, A little

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too late. I see. OK. What's the value of someone like you being on a board, like the, the board of curators at Lincoln University? What's the value, what's the value to? To blacks or into the schools. Well, I hope my value is is that I know

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the history of the school for one thing. I have an idea of what a school should be doing and and try to do and I project that. And I tried to see to it. It incidentally it Lincoln now, and we have an actual unusual situation because

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we have, More than 50% of the students are whites who live in that area, so it isn't a black school anymore. But it's still we consider it to be the Negro school of the state because that's what it was before and there wasn't any reason to

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integration in the first place. So we welcome the whites and we're glad they're there. Our faculty is integrated. And what we're hoping for is to have a better situation than we ever had before at the school for both blacks and blacks. Whites and blacks. I see.

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And, uh, I'm hopeful that that will be true, but, uh, so far the whites have not joined in, for instance, in the alumni like they ought to. I've tried to see if that happens, but, uh, I think it's our fault. Some of our people really don't

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want them in there, but they ought to be part of it too, just like anybody else. There are a lot of whites going to school there, but I was told that the one time because I went to school there, and one of the things that we

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were told is that the whites were using Lincoln University as kind of like a junior college where they would go for 2 years and then when they wanted to get a degree, they would go down the road to Central Missouri State or to uh MU. Or

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to some other school. Is, is, is that really true? Not now, I don't think it might have been when you were there, but I don't think that's true anymore. They, and we, we're graduated awful lot of them, awful lot of them that, uh, and they, they're

00:24:24.310 - 00:24:40.589

coming out with high honors sometimes embarrasses me because we're not shaping up. Now there's a reason for that. We have the social life. These whites are commuters and they come from small towns that I never heard of in my life before, and they come out to

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study. Uh, and we have the social life and Negro students and it takes you away from studying. That's right. And, and we do not, and of course I call the teachers to some extent because I think that they ought to inculcate into these students that are

00:24:56.219 - 00:25:09.030

having all the fun that particularly those that got the ability that we want to see you come out with cum laude and cum laude and so now we have them. We've got them in our group too because no man's got a corner on brains, as you

00:25:09.030 - 00:25:34.810

well know. But I think that's the cause of it is because the Negro students have the social life and therefore they don't give the time that the white students to the study. Uh, OK. You're on the board of curators. Uh, At Lincoln University. You're, The circuit

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court judge. You know, which we should make clear. I mean, we've been talking quite a while without actually saying what you do, what you do, but you're a circuit court judge. How do you get? To become a circuit court judge. Well, I guess. It would be

00:25:51.569 - 00:26:07.050

real elementary, but you got to be a lawyer first and of course I was a lawyer and I practiced law here for a number of years. And I had been on the municipal court, which is the lower court and city court here for 10 years when

00:26:07.699 - 00:26:22.630

when I was appointed to this place. Now it was a place that, uh, we had accused the wife of thinking it was too good for negroes because none of us could ever get on a panel on the, on the circuit court, right, and, uh. So, what,

00:26:22.709 - 00:26:38.290

what do you, what do you mean when you say a panel? Well, you, the, it's a nonpartisan court, and this is what's called the resouri plan, and it's used all over the country in some phase or another. It takes the judges out of the political arena

00:26:38.750 - 00:26:55.219

and makes them more independent. You have certain tenure. Now you do run for office periodically, but you run against your record. The ballot says only shall judge so and so be retained in office, yes or no. And if I'm not running against you and you're not

00:26:55.219 - 00:27:15.369

running against me under this circumstance. Now if you die or you retire or you lost in an election, then a commission which is set up under the law to pick candidates for the place would. Seek out 3 persons who wanted to be circuit Judge and that's

00:27:15.369 - 00:27:29.619

the panel. That's the panel they send that to the governor and he selects 1. He selected one of the persons and he becomes a judge for that day. OK, so when were you selected for the panel and when did you first become a circuit judge? It

00:27:29.619 - 00:27:53.939

was, um, February of 1970 was the time that I was picked by the governor. Mm. The commission had 3 people on there. A fellow named John Manning, who was a white man, very good lawyer, and Judge Spotsfield, who was a Negro, and myself. And my name,

00:27:54.300 - 00:28:09.439

these names were picked on Saturday. They were sent down to the governor on Saturday. Monday morning, he came to his office and picked me, so I didn't have to worry about it long. Thank you Lord, because you, you, you, you sure can't help but worry about

00:28:09.439 - 00:28:30.989

something, you know, particularly if you wanted it, and I did want to be a judge. Uh, so you say you're on the municipal court. Yeah. That was from 1960 to 1970? Right. OK. Um, OK, this is Governor Warren Hearns, right, who, uh, yes, Governor Hearns was

00:28:30.989 - 00:28:52.699

the governor who, who made life for for the circuit, uh. What are the characteristics that a governor looks for? And someone who comes to, you know, whose name comes to him on the panel, well, he would, uh, have some information about the persons that are on

00:28:52.699 - 00:29:07.709

the panel. He would know where they went to school, what kind of practice they've had, and he would sort of make up his mind based on that. So it happened that the governor and I were old friends, and that didn't hurt me either. He knew me

00:29:08.250 - 00:29:26.780

from my political activities and all that. And of course he knew what my background was and so I was selected by you. OK, we didn't talk about your practice. Uh, what kind of practice was it? Did you mostly practice criminal law or did you handle various

00:29:26.780 - 00:29:45.680

kinds of cases a practitioner? That means any kind of case that people had that brought it in, I would take it on. And that is what most of us do who are neighborhood lawyers in a, in a sense. Now we're getting away from that because. Now

00:29:46.819 - 00:30:02.380

our men can have offices downtown which you, if you've been watching what's going on with blacks, blacks, yes, you can have offices down in the buildings downtown with the other lawyers and the, uh, but they're still doing what I did when I had an office at

00:30:02.380 - 00:30:21.839

12th and Highland, for example. Saying that sometimes you would get a case into your office that uh you did not know too much about. Well, a good lawyer would go out and find somebody who did and associate that person with him so that his client would

00:30:21.839 - 00:30:38.640

get the very best kind of service and at the same time. He would learn from the other lawyer who specializes, and I speak of taxes, for example. Some of your friends have tax problems and uh our clients have tax problems and if you can specialize in

00:30:38.640 - 00:30:54.459

that, you go so far with it and then you would say, well, I need a specialist here and you go out and get one. so you're saying that you know you have, you have specialties, uh, not only that do the people that you refer to. Um,

00:30:55.819 - 00:31:09.420

Your clients to come to you with problems you can't handle, but in a way you have to have specialties because there's something there, there are some things that you handle better than other things if you see what I mean. What kind of things were your specialties,

00:31:09.500 - 00:31:29.020

uh, well, I suppose that, uh. I wasn't a specialist in anything because hey, you see, we did a what you call a well rounded office and here, here are the things that are bread and butter. People come with a contract our real estate banished and you'd

00:31:29.020 - 00:31:46.469

read an abstract or you'd handle to help them in the purchase of the property. You would do domestic relations cases like divorces and that's part of a domestic relations case or children in problems with the juvenile court. You work on that adoption. And then you would

00:31:46.469 - 00:32:05.380

get the damage suits and things of that kind where somebody's been involved in an automobile accident or been injured and you would uh sue to get them paid for the injury. So you, you do a well rounded practice. Now sometimes, for example. If you get a

00:32:05.380 - 00:32:21.819

case that that was uh very difficult in, in, uh, it actually a sort of a case, it might be well if you get somebody to help you handle that a man who specialized in did nothing that how would you. Do that, would, would the guy pay

00:32:21.819 - 00:32:38.439

you for sending the people to them, or, well, I mean, you, you know the men who are specialists. You get to know that because you, you hear about them winning this case and trying the case in the courthouse so. And, and what they do is to

00:32:38.869 - 00:32:54.359

share the fee. I see. You see, whatever the fee is to be, then you would share that with the man who had aided you in the case. Um See, now I always went along with mine because I did not just send people to them and say

00:32:54.359 - 00:33:09.119

goodbye and let you handle it. With it and help try to lawsuit because I felt that I didn't want my clients to get away from me that far. I see. You know, we had a big problem with negroes saying white men would do a better job

00:33:09.119 - 00:33:32.660

than we could anyway that's right that's the kind of uh. I guess we have that kind of doubt about. Our people and professions, you know. Uh, the doubt about black lawyers and about black, uh, doctors and about black politicians and you name it, some of us

00:33:32.660 - 00:33:45.160

had that feeling and that that was too bad. But how did, how did that make you feel that's not true anymore. How did that make you feel? It hurts your feelings. You would be downtown in the divorce court, for example. There's nothing too difficult about that.

00:33:47.099 - 00:34:01.560

If you're a lawyer at all, you ought to be able to handle a domestic relation. And you see some people who you were friendly with down there with white lawyers. It hurts your feelings. You don't like. But they could associate with them, you see, but they

00:34:01.560 - 00:34:20.459

won't associate with me on social. Uh, scene or something and that's unhappy, um. You know, we, um, what about, what about criminal cases? I mean, I'm, what, what percentage of the cases that came to your office were criminal cases? I didn't do a lot of criminal

00:34:20.459 - 00:34:39.519

work. I had had the experience of being an assistant prosecuting attorney here 4 years, and that was 1940. 2 and that was trying people or prosecuting them for crimes they've committed. I see. Now I never got much of that kind of work after I got out

00:34:39.519 - 00:34:57.079

of there because first place there wasn't any money in it. Now it's a little different now because people, uh, our lawyers are being paid when they're appointed to people and they can make a reasonable fee for doing work that I used to do free. Uh, let

00:34:57.079 - 00:35:14.580

me, let me ask you, what, uh. As a lawyer, you were just appointed to do a case for free and, uh, how, how would that happen? The judge would call you up and say, Judge Clymer, uh, Mr. Clymer, would you take this case, uh, you have

00:35:14.580 - 00:35:25.959

to take this case. You, you, you would have to take it. And unless you begged off and said, well, Judge, I've got 4 or 5 now that you sent me, and uh I'd like to, I've got to do my own work in order to make a

00:35:25.959 - 00:35:39.610

living, he said, Oh, I'm sorry, I need to go and give it to somebody else. But this was the way it was in the legal profession. Now all the other professions. If they did anything for your body, they got paid. If it was in a clinic,

00:35:39.969 - 00:35:55.449

somebody was paying those doctors, you see, the dentist clinic, they were being paid, but the lawyers were the only ones that did not. But I'm glad to say that's not true now. They are being paid. Uh, is that, is that a new law that's, uh, yes,

00:35:55.530 - 00:36:13.909

it's reasonably new. It's just about 2 years old in this state. What's the law called? Do you know, it, it, it, it just the uh actually what, what's happened is, is there is no law. It was a case it was. Taken up, a judge in, uh,

00:36:14.510 - 00:36:32.770

uh, some middle part of the state appointed some lawyers to try a criminal case and then mandated the county court to pay them a fee. The county court took the case up, went to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court of the state said, well. And the

00:36:32.770 - 00:36:48.979

legislature should appropriate funds to pay lawyers for working just like everybody else is pay. We're going to grant them some time to do that. We're going to turn this down at this point, but we are letting it be known now that any other cases that come

00:36:48.979 - 00:37:08.179

through after a reasonable time has been granted to cure this problem, we will sustain it. And was this the Supreme Court of Missouri? Supreme Court of Missouri. I see. OK. Well, they don't probate enough money for it. We run out of money because we've got more

00:37:08.179 - 00:37:26.229

crime and then. You should have, and then that of course part of that is because of the economy. If you've got people who are hungry and uh they can't work or don't have jobs they'll do some stealing and they'll do some other things that they probably

00:37:26.229 - 00:37:54.899

shouldn't. What about um? You know, black sociologists, uh. You know, you have some familiarity with sociology being a, a sociology major, uh, as an undergraduate at, at Lincoln. Black sociologists often take the position that so much of. Of the crime that's committed in black communities is

00:37:54.899 - 00:38:19.840

social in nature, people being poor, uh, you know, unemployment, those kind of things. Um. Do you think that's true? It has some effect. On the other hand, you could argue this and there's some efficacy for this argument that. It isn't true with all people. Now that's

00:38:19.840 - 00:38:38.540

comparing Jews for example with these blacks or say certain other ethnic groups say a group of Polish or Irish or whoever. They, they, they don't seem to be getting involved in the criminal processes but just some others. Are they as poor as we are? Are they

00:38:38.540 - 00:38:57.739

as poor as blacks are? No, they're not as poor either. But I think it goes further than that. It goes to upbringing. Our matriarchal society was one thing that hurt us. You're saying the matriarchal society, right, where, where you had families without men in the family

00:38:57.739 - 00:39:14.709

for a long time. And the upbringing. Now, many black mothers did an awful good job of rearing children, uh, some of them were a little lax, and I think they're they're prettylax. Some of them now are. And you've got to be encouraged and somebody's got to

00:39:14.709 - 00:39:27.679

say to youngsters, and this is my belief. I don't think that any kid now should not be able to find something to do to have some money in his pocket. It may not be what he wants, but he ought to be taught that work is honorable,

00:39:28.060 - 00:39:43.939

whatever it is. Now it may be dirty, it may be stinky, whatever it is, he'll have money in his pocket so he doesn't have to steal. But if he wants the very best job, he may not be able to get that. And my theory always was

00:39:43.939 - 00:39:57.379

that I would take what was available and work out of it. What kind of, what kind of jobs did you do for, you know, for you to sit here and say, now, you know, at 66, you know, and be a successful judge and whatnot, that, you

00:39:57.379 - 00:40:14.350

know. Young kids should take any kind of jobs. Did you do jobs that were I certainly did. I worked when I lived in Saint Louis as a boy on Saturdays I would go out and scrub steps. The people had nice stone steps in certain neighborhood near

00:40:14.350 - 00:40:29.870

where I live. These were white and I would scrub these steps, wash the porches, wash windows. And they do anything else that they need to be done, cut the grass, but I always had some money in my pocket. Sunday I would go to a barbershop where

00:40:30.080 - 00:40:43.149

a friend of mine was working in those days men got the shoe shine. These would be white people who would come. And we would shine shoes all through the morning up until maybe 2 or 3 in the afternoon when I had money in my pocket from

00:40:43.149 - 00:40:57.500

doing that. So when you, so when you say to young blacks, you know, they shouldn't commit crimes, that they should find some kind of odd job to do or something that they can do and work is honorable, you're saying this from experience rather than just from,

00:40:57.719 - 00:41:13.060

from my own experience, and I know that. And incidentally I've got corns in my hands right now from mopping those floors when I went to Howard. 4 years mopping floors, but the job turned out to be just what I needed because I could do it in

00:41:13.060 - 00:41:27.540

an hour and a half. It was hard, hard, tough job, but it, it was an 1.5 hour job and I was through and I could study and I've got those corns right to this day. How did you get involved in politics, you know there's. You know,

00:41:27.780 - 00:41:42.100

there's a, a considerable amount of politics involved in becoming a judge even though it's nonpartisan. You have to have some kind of political connections, you know. I don't mean, I don't mean that in a, in a negative sense, but you have to have, you know, some

00:41:42.100 - 00:41:58.659

kind of political reputation. How did you get involved in politics? Well, the man I worked for was, uh, his name was Kenny. He was a congressman from Saint Louis. And he got me interested. He said that was what age was this? How old was I? How

00:41:58.659 - 00:42:14.939

old were you then? I was at that time, I was 23. 23 years ago, before you had gone to Howard. That's when I first went to Howard. See, I worked on his passion. Got me the job there in the House of Representatives so I could go

00:42:14.939 - 00:42:30.659

to. I see I made $105 a month, which is quite a bit of money at that time. And uh so that was enough to and my tuition is being paid after I got in law school and then my grades were good enough that I got a

00:42:30.659 - 00:42:49.010

couple of $250 scholarships for 2 years and that paid for the books. So I was in better shape than a lot of youngsters. With with the job and the tuition being paid and the scholarship, you see, but uh. And, and then I would watch Mr. Henning

00:42:49.010 - 00:43:03.419

because he was a sort of an idol to me, you know, the man who had given me this job. I met him working as a doorman at an apartment house there in Saint Louis, right? I've been an elevator man there, and I, what was his position

00:43:04.090 - 00:43:24.209

again? His position, right? He was a US congressman from Saint Louis. I see. OK. And so you went to Harvard under his patronage, um. And what was your first involvement with politics? First involvement. And I learned a lot from, from him and from the men that

00:43:24.209 - 00:43:41.050

were. You know, his friends, Negro men who were his friends, and, uh, when I got out of school, he was he he was, he was white. We didn't have a congressman until just a few years ago in Saint Louis. Clay, that's just Clay, uh, William Clay,

00:43:41.149 - 00:43:57.610

yes, but what happened after I, I, I would come back home to campaign when he ran each 2 years to help me and this is how I got to know the political men in Saint Louis. So after I got out of school, came back. Uh, Senator

00:43:57.610 - 00:44:13.110

Truman was running to be renominated for the Senate. He would have a very difficult time because he was a Pentergast man and he had said on the floor of the Senate that he, he wouldn't allow anybody in there to talk about Tom Pendergast because he was

00:44:13.110 - 00:44:26.949

his friend, and I thought that was a pretty strong statement to make, and I thought it was a fine man to do something like that. He didn't have to do it, but he did. So they were looking for some negro to run the campaign in Saint

00:44:26.949 - 00:44:40.159

Louis, and they couldn't find any of the men who were. Older in the business knew more about it, so a friend of mine said, well. Lewis Climber is just out of law school and he knows as much about it as we do and maybe he will.

00:44:40.209 - 00:44:57.270

They came to see me and I took that off and I insisted on that I'd be down in the same office with them. And not out on Van Venner or Sarah Street like they usually have Negro headquarters away from the whites. This is 1940 and I

00:44:57.550 - 00:45:12.889

insisted on that. Went downtown, got two girls to help me, and the first thing we ran into is the white women started complaining about using the toilets and asked us to leave, asked my girls to leave, so I quit. But they straightened that out. Mr. Truman

00:45:12.889 - 00:45:32.340

did that himself. And, uh, the other big problem we had, I, I was pretty good at drawing pamphlets. So you were helping him with this campaign. The owner won that election by 7000 votes and the, the votes were the blacks that that did it for him

00:45:32.340 - 00:45:50.070

in Saint Louis and we had some wards there with a ward leader named Jordan Chambers. And if you had Jordan, you had 3000 votes right there and he was for a fellow named Milligan who was the man who prosecuted Mr. Fenn 3 fellows running Governor Stark,

00:45:51.020 - 00:46:06.639

Mr. Truman, and Maurice Miller. Well, Jordan Chambers was for this man, and, but I was close to Jordan, and I kept worrying him, kept going to see him, worrying, worrying. And finally he said, Well, and then there was Doctor William J. Tompkins, who was from here.

00:46:07.270 - 00:46:21.320

He was a recorder of deeds then in Washington. That was the top job that a Negro got back in those days, and he was a close friend of Mr. Truman's. So Jordan knew him and Elmer Mosey, who was a real close friend of mine, the man

00:46:21.320 - 00:46:38.189

who helped me very much in my career, and uh. He said, Well, I just can't turn you fellas down. If you like the guy, maybe he's, he's got something. He said, but my, I've got my ballots printed. I'm not gonna reprint them for you. If you

00:46:38.189 - 00:46:52.719

want to put them, change them, you have to do it. So we took all those ballots and we stamped out this man Milligan, and we put Truman in. So, what kind of man was Truman? I mean, you, you knew him personally. Yes, I knew him personally.

00:46:53.020 - 00:47:11.340

Well, he was a, a nice little man. He always believed he could win and he always did. And he was, he, he was a good, good man too. And honest as the days are now and of course he made his big uh. Uh, splash when he

00:47:11.340 - 00:47:26.979

became chairman of the committee of the Congress, sort of an oversight committee during the war, he went out and he found all these people doing the government in, you know, so that was the reason that, uh, President Roosevelt picked him to be his vice president because

00:47:26.979 - 00:47:47.350

he'd done such an excellent job in this, uh, oversight consequently, consequently became president president later on. Um, OK, let's just start in politics. Where do you go from Saint Louis, uh, well, working for working for Harry Truman. Well, here I'm saying, here's what happened as I

00:47:47.350 - 00:48:03.100

told you about my work getting this. School deal through in Saint Louis training the blacks during the war. Uh, I was writing Mr. Truman. See, I'd already done this campaign for him, so I'm writing him asking for help. I'm writing to Doctor Bob Weaver, who was

00:48:03.100 - 00:48:23.110

the Negro head of this the minority placement outfit in the war production board. And uh I'm writing everybody I could think of to send some help to try to get these people to get off the duff and do something with the Negro defense defense. So they've

00:48:23.110 - 00:48:36.909

sent two men out there. This is after we've already got it settled and they voted to spend all this money to set up this facility for us. Two fellows came and they worked for Weaver and they were steel men for him and one was named Ted

00:48:36.909 - 00:48:54.780

Postman who later was a great newspaper man. I've heard of Yes, Ted Posman another name was Clarence Johnson, a labor man from California. And uh they came to see me one day and he said, well, farmer said to me. We're here for at your behest. I

00:48:54.780 - 00:49:08.070

got a letter you've written and said, but we've been downtown already. We didn't come see you first, and we find that you've done an excellent job and the thing that we like so much is that nobody's mad about it. You did it in such a way

00:49:08.070 - 00:49:22.580

that they, yes, and nobody's mad and said, you know, we think you'd be a good man on our staff, and we'd like to go back and recommend the doctor we. That he, he hired you. So I said, well, tell me what you're doing. So they told

00:49:22.580 - 00:49:40.949

me that they were going out working these problems out all over around the country and so on. So I kind of problems getting the schools open for blacks, getting them on the job that was what it was. And so they, they went back. We were sent

00:49:40.949 - 00:49:55.239

me a wire and I went to Washington and he hired me and uh he made me his assistant though because of my legal background and I didn't really like that because he's sitting in his office all the time, you know, making briefs of the letters that

00:49:55.239 - 00:50:07.360

came in and the field reports was on. So he sent me to Wilmington, Delaware to work out a matter, and I went up there and worked it out. I worked it out because there was a man there who was a friend of Mr. Henrys, one of

00:50:07.360 - 00:50:24.810

the Duponts, and Wilmington or Delaware is Dupont Duchy. Whatever they say, do, they do, you know. And I went to see this man and I told him who I was and he was surprised, of course, and he said, well, he said, I think primary. We ought

00:50:24.810 - 00:50:39.090

not have that kind of situation here in Wilmington. I said, no, I don't think you should either. Called to the school and said who he was. He said this is so and so, and he said, Oh yes, you can hear the man, you know, that. He

00:50:39.090 - 00:50:50.010

told him that I was there and that what I'd come about. He said, I don't think we ought to have that here. Do you? Oh, no, send him on over. And I went over and we got it all worked out. And of course then I go

00:50:50.010 - 00:51:08.469

and report to the, the Negro people who have been writing us about it. And then Weaver sent me some other places, finally sent me here to. The heartfelt for the job and uh. This man didn't want me. So while I'm here, I'm see people write Miss.

00:51:08.629 - 00:51:23.110

Roosevelt. She would send the letter through channel. He'd come to us. We'd come to the place and try to work out the problem, whatever it was, and, uh, I did this while I'm working with this fellow trying to get him take the job. So finally we

00:51:23.110 - 00:51:39.409

just said, well, you are from that area. And I don't think you like sitting in this office, he said, Do you want that region? And I said yes, and I took it. So I came here in August 1941. That's to Kansas City, Kansas City, and, uh,

00:51:40.199 - 00:52:03.189

that was, uh. Beginning of it and I, we've had our office downtown. The what's now the old savings building, is the old Dirk's building there. Finally we really. By the building, which is a federal building with two spire buildings 7th and 9th in the wallet there.

00:52:04.300 - 00:52:25.739

Yeah, I worked in Missouri, Arkansas, Kansas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Arkansas, Kansas, Oklahoma. And we had, oh, we had two war plants, uh, in, uh, bumer plants in Oklahoma, the Douglas plants in Tulsa and Oklahoma City, and of course they were building camps too in the beginning, like

00:52:25.739 - 00:52:40.780

Camp Gruber and and you would recruit blacks to work in these, well, I, the employment service actually did it, but I, I was the one that went in and, and worked the birds out, right, and said, now then I go to the employment service and say

00:52:40.780 - 00:52:55.169

now here. Oh, we've got these jobs now. You get the best people you can and send them there. And sometimes I sit down with, with people and the leaders in the community say, Now look, we want the very best people to go out here to start

00:52:55.169 - 00:53:12.590

with, and, and we want. Those who start to know enough and be casual enough to not let any bad apples in there, get them out themselves. Go to the manager and say, Well, here's Joe Dopes who won't move as he should we like him gone. And

00:53:12.590 - 00:53:35.639

we did that. We did it with standing still over here. Damn man. Oh, there were, I was reading something, uh. Oh, not too long ago by Carl Lewin, the journalist. Yeah. Um, Uh, a history of, uh, actually a compilation of, of, uh, speeches that he had

00:53:35.639 - 00:53:53.110

made. And one of the things that he said was that first of all, he was talking about jobs and how to get jobs. He said that many Young college blacks were envious of him because in a period of a few years, he had two very important

00:53:53.110 - 00:54:04.229

jobs in Washington. And they wanted to know how he did it. Did he camp around the bulletin board and see what jobs came up, you know. And so he said, no, he didn't do that. The way to get jobs was, you know, that most of the

00:54:04.229 - 00:54:23.979

jobs were given out on the golf course and uh in the social. Surroundings of the social uh meetings of, of uh the big people in Washington and so he would attend those affairs. But he went on to say that And that, you know, blacks should join

00:54:24.310 - 00:54:40.870

uh white, white country clubs, those kind of things. And then from there he went on to say that. He thought, he thought that what blacks could do in this country to obtain power was kind of infiltrate the ranks of, uh, you know, these white country clubs,

00:54:41.000 - 00:54:56.560

the, the white, uh, you know, the job market, the, the whole thing. How do you feel about that? You're right, infiltration, he, he's right. And since we have a better opportunity now to do it than ever before, we ought to take advantage of it. I recommend

00:54:56.560 - 00:55:12.449

to the young lawyers that they become active in the bar association and go to the meetings. It's the place to get know it's not called the bar association anymore, is it? Well, yes, it's Kansas City Bar Association here and then the Lawyers Association have two. So,

00:55:12.459 - 00:55:27.340

um, so there's no reason that our young black lawyers aren't belong and be active. They don't do it as much as they should do, but, uh, some of them are doing it. I was I was active there. Yeah, I was thinking about when I, when I

00:55:27.340 - 00:55:41.860

said that about it not being called the bar association. It's the history of the bar in Missouri is that there was a black bar and a white bar, right? We still have a black bar. You, you still have one. Yes, and we should keep one, you

00:55:41.860 - 00:55:57.340

see. Our black bar paired us cross, so why should we give it up? I see. And now you don't have the same, you see, you don't have the same podium that you have podium, right? You've got a podium with your own. You can say what you

00:55:57.340 - 00:56:13.185

want and you can address the problems that you want to in your own. You can't do that as well. Now being over on the other side with them, you get a chance to have input, but over. With the black bar, you get a chance there to

00:56:13.185 - 00:56:30.014

point out the problems that you really need to point out and have a, a place to a podium as I say to the sounding board. Hasn't there been debate about this in Missouri as to having the two different bars, the black bar and the and the

00:56:30.014 - 00:56:47.489

white bar? When, when it wasn't it one time, there's some talk of joining them or something. Well, of course, since the whites have let us in now they, they would rather us all be in there. But uh those of us who came along when we couldn't

00:56:47.489 - 00:57:05.870

get in the white one, we still think we need to. I see. So we brought the both of them. I see. It's like wearing a spinner and a belt with your pants. You got double security, right, OK. Uh, A. Philip Randolph always said that. He, he

00:57:05.870 - 00:57:31.110

always said you don't leave the ship to carry. OK, you got a, he talks about. Uh, your early political experience was working for, for Harry Truman and working for Robert Weaver. What about political experience once you came to Kansas City to direct the regional Well, all

00:57:31.110 - 00:57:48.439

through the war I was too busy working on these problems to be involved in politics and of course Saint Louis was my home, you know. But when the war ended in 1945, I decided to stay here. I like Kansas City and then I opened the 1702

00:57:48.439 - 00:58:06.520

East 12th, which was 12th and 12th I always called it. And I, I began to get interested in politics and working in it. Carl Johnson was running for the mayor's offices and I would always help him and give him money on his campaign, but he did

00:58:06.520 - 00:58:21.679

not know. However, he didn't have the background of it that I had. He had never worked in it. Well, he was the first black judge we had. He was on the board and he was head of the NACP, a very able man. What, what period was

00:58:21.679 - 00:58:37.889

this that he was head of the NAACP, the regional, regional NAACP. No, he was the head of the NACP here. That's what president of Kansas City, Kansas City branch for 20 years, and I guess that was from. Uh, up until his death, he died in 1960.

00:58:37.969 - 00:58:52.239

I succeeded him on the municipal court, and I was the architect of him getting to be the judge in the first place. I see. How did you go about doing that? Well, let me tell you, you see, I was a member of the Pentergast organization. I

00:58:52.239 - 00:59:06.860

joined it when I went in the prosecutor's office because Henry Fox, who was the prosecutor, he was a member, and of course Mr. Truman was too, and I still liked him. There wasn't that much wrong with Fendergast organization, I'll tell you that. But it was used

00:59:06.860 - 00:59:23.530

as a whipping boy for political causes. The citizens association and the white stock and the silk stocking people used it for their purposes, you see. What do you mean when you say white stocking and silk silk stocking or the, what are the do-gooders, you know, the

00:59:23.530 - 00:59:42.250

people live out on the south side, and that those are your silk stockings. And the citizens association here was in control of the city government, and they did it because they were raised the specter of fender gas and so on. And so the hardcore politicians could

00:59:42.250 - 01:00:01.229

not win the city hall. Carl was a member of it, and I'd had a very bad experience with one of the judges one day who just sort of ignored my representation of the man I was representing or a group of men. And it made me very

01:00:01.229 - 01:00:14.889

unhappy. I didn't like it. So I decided that the way to do that was try to get him off. Uh-huh. Off the bed. I got to thinking about it and I said, well, now who do we have? You had to be a lawyer.