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Mid America and I'm interviewing Mr. Lanier Pemberton, Pemberton, the executive director of the Kansas City branch of the Urban League. Uh, good morning, Mr. Pemberton. Good morning. Uh, first of all, I'd like to know your, your complete name. Lunier Pemberton, L O U double N double

00:00:19.850 - 00:00:36.930

E R Pemberton, P E M B E R T O N. No middle initial, no middle initial. All right, when were you born, Mr. Pemberton? Born in Clarrinda, Iowa. What year was that? 198 October 22nd. 0, I'd like to also say that today's date is, uh,

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May 20th, 1976. This is, uh, it's 9:16 in the morning. Um, what was your mother's name, Mr. Primitive? Her name was Falvia Falvia Lanier. P H A A L B I A L O U N N W E R. OK. And what was your father's name?

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Theodore. Theodore. And uh do you remember where your father was from? Both my mother and father were born in Clorinda, Iowa. Both of them, OK, um, um, do you have any people in that part of the country at this time? Not anymore, um. I was a

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4th generation Iowan. Family move. Concubine went to Brinda with her, with her master. 1850. Mhm. Who was her master? Huh, who was her master, you said? Lanier, Sydney Lanier. OK. All right. What were the circumstances of your family moving to Iowa? Do you remember? I said

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they brought, they brought my, the concubine. From, uh, South Carolina. to Iowa. OK. Do you have any brothers and sisters? I have one sister. She passed about 3 years ago. What was her name? Gertrude Gertrude, OK, um, how long did you live in in in in

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Iowa? Until I was 17. All right. Uh, do you remember what hospital you were born? Back in those days, it was a doctor, a midwife. Remember her name. The midwife's name. No, how would I remember her name? Well, I thought, a doctor. A doctor delivered me.

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Uh-huh. But, uh, I don't know who the doctor was. Then you were delivered at home. Yeah, OK. Did you have any other brothers and sisters, only just, uh, one sister, one sister. Um, uh, let's see. Look, how old, let's see. You were born in Iowa, um,

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Uh, but you had, there was a midwife there and a doctor and doctor there. Um, uh, do you remember where you were born? The exact location? I know where it is, uh, by the railroad tracks in a house. And um That house has long been torn

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down. Um, do you have any Um, uh, relatives, now, no, not at all. You're the last of the comers, last of the on the near side, now I have, uh, On the Pemberton side, I have 3 cousins. First cousins, uh, living in Kansas City, and, uh,

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one cousin, male. Leon Pember living out in Los Angeles. What was, what are your cousin's name here, uh. No, her married name is Lyda. Lucille and uh Irene. OK. Um, Let's see, do you know to what elementary school you went in Ohio? In Iowa. In Iowa,

00:04:03.160 - 00:04:25.339

excuse me, yeah, what was that? I went to, uh, Logan in Des Moines. As a kindergarten, and I went to Sioux City. And went to Hopkins. Uh, your kindergarten, um, uh, you went, do you remember what your teacher's name was at kindergarten, kindergarten. Oh my God,

00:04:25.500 - 00:04:38.179

no. Do you, do you remember any of the people that you were associated with as a kindergarten, I mean, at that particular time period when you were 65 or 6 years old. I was 5. Do you, do you reflect on any, any of the people that

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you were involved with? Oh, well, there were some Edmonds and Browns. They were neighbors, and, uh, I went to school on the Edmond boys. And then mostly all the other people were white like Lillian Turnquist. She was in school with me in kindergarten. In the morning.

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My father had a job, a political job. At the state capitol. All, all right, which brings back another point. What type of employment? Was your, your parents involved with period? Well, my father uh was, uh, had a political job. He was all, he worked on the,

00:05:16.739 - 00:05:38.000

uh, Seed company there and he got a, he got a political job in Des Moines carrying me up from the museum, from the Capitol, the museum. And after the There were some changes. My mother and father were divorced when I was 8 years old. And my

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mother moved to Sioux City, Iowa and uh We lived in Sioux City from that point on. OK. All right. Between the time of you entering, uh, let's say, uh, kindergarten to the time of your moving from, um, one location to the other, can you remember any,

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uh, activities that perhaps It might be noteworthy at this point. Nothing noteworthy at that point, simply because in those days, uh, Mostly all the things that a child would do would be play baseball and uh Go out and catch frogs, things like that. Did nothing. What

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type of person was Pemberton at that particular Pemberton at that at that particular time, a dreamer, a dreamer, a dreamer, a visionary of what. Well, I read damn near every fairy tale in the world. I just read all the time and I read many a fairy

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tale. Who taught green book, huh? Who taught you to read in school. Yeah. So, uh, I guess that's part of my, uh Optimism is always Pile of gold behind that rainbow, you know. Was there a, did you, did you did go to school in a, in

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a, in a, in a highly integrated situation initially very much so. I never, I lived in a white neighborhood. And, uh, all my playmates are white. Uh, we lived on the side of town where there were very, weren't very many blacks in fact, uh, all through

00:07:26.320 - 00:07:47.420

my, uh, High school and elementary school days. There weren't blacks living within six square blocks. That is after. When I moved to Sio Sioux City, for example, I lived on the west side. But, but at that, uh, at that particular time, but I, at, uh, when

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I was in junior high school, I was the only black male. Well, did you, did you, did you feel it? Did you, did you, did you, did you understand the The, the racial thing. There was no such thing as a racial thing as far as I

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was concerned, um. I guess it's a protective environment because I never at that particular time thought myself as either black or white because no one ever we never I guess sort of protection. We had with my mother because uh There was no particular time but uh

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This business of, uh, name-calling, I was a part of the group. And I told Beauty on our staff here one time, I didn't know I was white. I mean, I wasn't white until I got to uh High school. Uh, then I found out that the, then

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there were the kids that you came up with kind of moved away because I guess there's the class system in the school. were to be too friendly with blacks that they might not make the various societies they had there. Well, before high school, did you, did

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you have girlfriends? You want to put it on that base, my girlfriends are white. If you want to put it on that base. But, uh, no particular problem there. Uh, we didn't, uh There wasn't much activity as far as boy-girl relationships. Other than um And back

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and forth to school. This type of thing, carrying books and things like that, but as far as uh Any particular thing, problems like that, we never had them. Did your parents own a car that would pick you up? Um, My parents, as I say, my mother

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and father were divorced, and I had a stepfather. Father, I'm still talking about that same period, the age of kindergarten and the time of leaving. No, no, they didn't have a car, but, uh, certainly living in an all-white neighborhood, uh, your father had a, let's say,

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a substantial income then, right. Adequate. Let's put it that way. Other employees. Not Until after the divorce. What year are we? What would you, what year are we talking about approximately? Let's say, uh, when you, 0, 19, uh. Oh, about 1913, 1014. Right, right after the

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turn of the century, yeah, OK, um, um, all right, let's say you, you, we made the move, you're going to junior high school. What junior high school are you going to? West, West Junior, mhm, and you, there's still a low identification as far as very much

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so. I participate on a big team, and I was the editor of the little paper they had there and, um, had, um. Well, I worked with the various kids. There's some leadership element in high school, junior high school level. As, as, as unprojective as it might

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be, you still had not identified. I still hadn't identified, uh. In other words, uh, It wasn't until then that uh I discovered, as I say, when I went to high school, junior high school took you to the 9th grade and you started 10th grade. Do you

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remember any instructors at this point? Oh my God, yes. All right, give me, give me, uh, an instructor that you, well, give me, give me a list of the instructors. Oh well, the, the one that had quite an effect on my life was Miss Erin. She's

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my English teacher. And uh Born Camp was a math teacher. And uh Ms. Gerhardt, were you pretty good in these subjects? Well, good enough so that I, uh, substituted in my last two years. Latin for English. It took Latin for 2 years. And uh It was

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all right. Um, how did you get back and forth to school? Walk. How far was that? Well, the West Junior is 20 blocks, 20 blocks, yeah. What time do you have to be there? 8 o'clock. OK, and you got out at what time? At 33. Do

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you have any type of a job? All my life. I worked at the packing house. I had an uncle who, no, I'm talking about at this particular point though. What? What were you working at this particular point? I'd say at junior high school level. I was

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working for, um, in the washroom with Martin's Hotel in Sio Sioux City. What were you doing? shining shoes and passing out towels. Uh, still no identification. No identification at that time. I say you mean, you mean, you mean working in the washroom. Well, what I, the

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identification that I explained to you occurred when I entered. High school. See the uh Then I was passing out tiles to some of my uh Kids that were in high school, they would be going down there for dances and things like that's when I discovered that

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there was a difference. I'm talking about from that point on, I wake up the idea that there was a difference. Well, you give me, give me the incident. That that mean that that was most, most striking all right most damn dramatic thing was the girl I

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was going with. And uh, from the 6th grade on. Her name was I They call her Frenchy. Black and white, white and uh I've tried to contact her. She's living in Minneapolis and never married. Every time I go to Minneapolis, I try to contact, but I

00:14:26.549 - 00:14:42.820

can't seem to get it. So we're having our 50th anniversary. In June, so I may see her there, but um One of the fellows at the, in the washroom was dating her at that time. They called her Frenchy. And then I, that was dramatic enough right

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there, you know. To, huh? How about, uh, That's about, you say there's anything dramatic, nothing dramatic about it other than Suddenly realize that you're off. And then the other thing is too, that um Job opportunities for young blacks. We're rather limited in so say. You had

00:15:11.590 - 00:15:28.099

the packing house and you had the You're too young to get in the pack house anyway. So the only thing you could do is shine shoot her. Wash windows or something like that anyway. Did you have any black buddies at that point? Not very many. Um,

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Because I work. See, as soon as I got out of school, I'd go down there and uh Work till about 9 o'clock and come home and study and read. What were you preparing yourself for? Well, to be perfect frank with you, my first interest was law,

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and, uh, when I went to the University of Minnesota. I took common law. I took all the pre-legal courses. And uh but what happened was that Dean Landis said that Look on the right of you, and look on the left of you. Only one will be

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here the next term, and if you work, You can't pass. What do you mean by that? If you were, if you worked, you just couldn't get the. the Your chances of getting, getting out, there wasn't enough hours in the day. That's right. Did you and then

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money too because I didn't have any money. Yeah, I had to work my shine my way through college, yeah, and, in fact, how much was the shoeshine 10 cents, um. When the job opened up in Minneapolis, I'd had about, uh, oh, maybe, uh, 10 years' experience

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with the Urban League and a job opened up in Minneapolis. Wait, wait, wait, we, we get way ahead of ourselves. What, what, um, did you participate in any sports at all in high school? In high school, I tried to run track. Were you very good? Well,

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I tried to be a miler. I weighed about 120 pounds, yeah. What year, what year did you first take, take interest in the mind, I mean, in running track? What year was that, would you say? Well, it was in the, um, When I first entered high

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school. I try to run the mile, I guess, uh. I guess the best time was about Huh. Not good enough to get a letter. It wasn't OK. No, so I didn't qualify and I went out for basketball, but I was the first guy off the court.

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Coach had us dribble down the length of the floor. The guy says, Hey, you, and I turned around and said, this gave me the, get out. That's the extent of my leg. I played tennis. I was running up to city championship one time. What year did

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you start taking interest in tennis? We had a tennis club in Si Sioux City, and we, uh, competed against Omaha. There's a tennis club in Omaha. And we'd have that was a great thing. We have a big picnic and play tennis. Well, about when did you

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first get involved in that though? What tennis junior high school, high school, junior high school, junior high school. You, you were pretty good then by the time you got to high school, right? You ever thought about hustling tennis? No, I wasn't that good either. I was

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a left-handed and I had the that Chris Everts stroke on the backhand. On the backhand I used both hands. You know, and Joy plays tennis. Uh, what's the young man that, that, that, that was playing last weekend. That they use that Uh, the one that, uh,

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that, that, uh, I can't, I, I didn't see the matches. I don't know. OK, um, Moving right along. Um, who was your high school principal? What was your high school principal? Pop Pikeman, H E I T M A N. Did he affect you at all? Not

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at all. Uh, he was, um, he's still living incidentally. Were you a well-disciplined young man? Very much so. And my, I wasn't out on the street after 9 o'clock. Who, who's my mother. What type of woman was she? My mother was a strong woman, very strong.

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How was she employed, let's say, as, as your senior year, I mean, as your first year in high school. Oh, she was uh made at um one of the beauty shops and she hadn't, um, um, helped in your identification as of yet. She hadn't said anything

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as far as your identifying. My mother was passed for white mhm. No particular problem there and uh so I never Any identification. The only thing that worried my mother is I might have got messed up with some white girl I was always going. But that never

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happened, so. You know, so we never had that problem. So tell me a little bit more about your high school years. Well, the high school years, I was an invisible man. I'd be the only black in the class. Never call on for recitation. I mispronounced my

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name at the time, down here and all that stuff. You know, more or less a, a lone wolf. In fact, I felt sorry for the girl that walked down the aisle when we graduated. Her name was Peterson. Hi, Peterson. And uh so I know she was

00:20:52.619 - 00:21:10.290

miserable, probably. But uh my grandmother and I was Well, you, what was your grandmother's name? You never did tell me that. Kerrie Roberts. Kerrie Robertson. That was her last name, of course. She was, uh, does she live with you and Carrie Lanier, huh? Does she live

00:21:10.290 - 00:21:24.930

with you and your mother in Siououx City? No. Oh, where does she live in Siououx City. That's where my mother went. She moved to Sioux City, moved to Sioux City, and then, uh, she stayed with my grandmother. She Then she found a place. Then your grandmother

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probably would in all likelihood could pass a white also then, right? She was fair but not that fair. She was OK. Uh, what was your grandfather? Huh. Your grandfather, where was he? His, uh, his name was Perer in there. What was he? Where, where was he

00:21:42.479 - 00:22:03.650

in Sioux City. He was, but he passed early. He died early, see, my grandmother remarried. She married Sergeant Roberts, who was one of the Uh, Theodore Roosevelt. Rough Riders that went to, you know, to the San Juan, San Juan, yeah. Um, um, tell me this. All

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right, you're graduating from high school. What type of, um, of an individual is Pam at that time? At that time, at that time. Well, I don't know. I, uh, finished at the top, one of the top of the class, you know, I, uh. You all right

00:22:22.260 - 00:22:41.920

there, but you know, where were you, you were, you were at the top of your class, not at the top, not a valedictorian salutatorian, but I was in the top, uh, 10 10%. And um At that particular time. I had no knowledge of a poor boy's

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scholarship at the University of Iowa had. Mhm. So, uh, I didn't know, and a friend of mine who finished, there were 5 of us to graduate, 2 boys and 3 girls, all living, mhm, and, uh, he got to Iowa. On a poor boys scholarship. Did you

00:23:01.790 - 00:23:15.439

really aspire to go to Iowa University of Iowa? Well, I was, I aspire to go anywhere, but mother and father were divorced. My father was radioing out of Minneapolis, so my mother said he hadn't done anything for you over these years. At least you can stay

00:23:15.439 - 00:23:40.680

with him. What railroad company did he work with? The, uh, Uh, rock eye as a Pullman port. So I went up and stayed with him. Then, uh, you don't recall anything like this, but there was a strike. At one time, um, All members who, who had

00:23:40.680 - 00:24:00.050

signed up to be uh to the union. You had 2 Uh, A. Phil Randolph organized the Pullman for shooting. So my father joined that and he was laid off for a while and he, he finally got in and got back home. So when that happened, I

00:24:00.050 - 00:24:19.880

went to live with my aunt who lived in, uh, in, in Saint Paul. And then uh she had been married and I had a little squabble with her uncle, with her husband. So that, from that point on, and my sister. Starting started school, so that meant

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that everything was on me. In other words, my mother didn't, I mean, didn't have any help, so, uh. There was a Pretty rough deal. About what year was this? What that, that, that you finished school? What, what year did you graduate from school in uh '39.

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OK. What was 39? Um, that was right before the breakout of Well, I was, uh, I went to grad school. From 39 to 42 grad school. Well, I'm talking about just college, period. When, when did you, uh, enter college, undergraduate college, undergraduate school as soon as

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I graduated to where? In Minnesota, University of Minnesota. OK. Uh, but then, then the, then the depression came on, you know, in 29, and uh How did that affect you? How. Well, just like everybody else, couldn't have a job, couldn't find a job. Um, so I

00:25:27.010 - 00:25:54.979

was, as I said, I shined shoes. Mhm. And uh I did have a very good job. And uh And I quit it. I was a redcap in Milwaukee station. Mhm. Go to work broke every morning. And every night I'd have money in my pocket. What tips,

00:25:55.189 - 00:26:14.209

tips, and I got $42 a month for mopping up station after. Mhm. Oh, so you, you, you did hustle hustle. Uh Did you save the money up to go to the University of Minnesota yourself? That's the only way I've gotten there cause my mother didn't have.

00:26:15.979 - 00:26:30.959

Um, tell me a little bit about, let's say, um, I, I wanna know, I wanna know some more about, about the depression. What were you during the Depression? Where were you during the Depression in, in, uh, in the, in, uh, in, uh, Saint Paul? Did you

00:26:30.959 - 00:26:46.130

have any recollection of Kansas City at that particular point in life? No way. No way. No way, um, um, the Depression. I've talked to a number of people that lived through the, the Depression period, and they talk, they tell me about, uh, the various types of

00:26:46.130 - 00:27:05.650

foods that were available to them, you know, um. Of course, the beginning, uh, uh, uh, at last of, of the New Deal and all this type of thing, did that affect the primitive? No, the, uh, the, uh, I was never getting that 25, 50 a week.

00:27:06.729 - 00:27:34.719

that they And the only recollection I have of that was I was an interviewer. For 3 weeks. Interview WPA. Client shows on WPA uh-huh and uh my reaction to that was when you interview all people. How beat they were. They're just beating. They were beating people.

00:27:36.069 - 00:27:57.599

You can see their eyes. So, um, it was, it was a, a rough period. People don't realize what that, what that did to a lot of people, scars. Did it bother your family that much? Well, we, we had, as I say, um, some of their jobs.

00:27:58.689 - 00:28:16.390

Um, I worked the First National Bank building in that barbershop. I made some pretty good money. You know, um, I got paid for cleaning the place up. And I had another part-time job cleaning up a restaurant where I got my breakfast every day. Oh, you got

00:28:16.390 - 00:28:37.079

your meals free. Mhm. Uh, University of Minnesota. Where did you live? Well, I room. Is it hard finding house as a black student. No, I, I, uh, commuted from Saint Paul to Minneapolis every morning. How long a drive was that? Well, he took the bus or

00:28:37.079 - 00:28:58.089

streetcar to the inner city limits, and, and then there was an extra fare. From the city limits we had to pay another fare. So what I do is get off. At semins to walk to the university every morning. And Never will forget that we got a

00:28:58.089 - 00:29:17.869

bowl of beans, a slice of bread, and a pat of butter. For 15 cents. That'd be my meal for the day. For the day, I'd sometimes buy nickel packs of peanuts. Spanish peanuts is about 3 times the size that you get nowadays for 15 for 15

00:29:17.869 - 00:29:47.530

cents. Uh, uh, what kind of a college student was? Well, Because of the fact that I worked. Made average grades, um. Nothing, no brilliance there. I did fairly well in the. The last two years in grad school, did you know about the struggle at that point,

00:29:48.109 - 00:30:12.329

huh? Did you know about the struggle at that point? Not particularly so. I, um, as you know, I majored in anthropology. And uh I got a little bit upset at that particular teacher at the University of Minnesota, Doctor Jenks, for example. had the theory that your

00:30:12.329 - 00:30:39.810

brain box. In black seal up before. And therefore, that's the reason why they fell behind. After Where he spoke we also had uh quite a few black lectures at that time. Francis, who did you hear? Well, let's see. Du Bois was one and uh What and

00:30:39.810 - 00:30:58.859

you did hear Du Bois speak. OK. What did you think of, of Du Bois, Du Bois? I mean, he was quiet. He's quietest speaker. What did you think of his philosophy? Flossie was good. Still think it was good Uh-huh. OK. Uh, All right, you, you're gonna

00:30:58.859 - 00:31:24.079

tell me some of the other people that you actually heard speak. Who else, um. That's the father of uh that he Huh, um, um, um, Booker T. Washington, Booker T. Washington, George Washington Cobb. All right, Booker T. Washington's Booker Cup. You know, George Washington Carver was

00:31:24.079 - 00:31:43.680

educated in the north in that part of the north, was I was, yeah. Did you ever never heard him. I saw him, met him. You met him. Mhm. Where did you meet in Iowa? Yeah, mhm. OK, right along, uh, as, at, at this particular point, there

00:31:43.680 - 00:32:02.150

was still no identification on, on the part of linear. No, the only, the identification was this in this regard. I told you that, um. I want to go to law school. And one of the things I was going to do after I graduated law school, go

00:32:02.150 - 00:32:18.930

back to Si Sioux City. And raise hell. Get that straight up, yeah, but I never got to that point. Well, what happened to the law school? Well, as I pointed out, uh, money. Where you hustled all the way through undergraduate school, yeah, but I couldn't, uh,

00:32:19.089 - 00:32:41.189

couldn't make it. Still no scholarships, no scholarships, no nothing. What and what rank of your class did you finish from college from college, I really don't know, see. Here's the thing, what you have to realize is that I was in and out of school. So all

00:32:41.189 - 00:33:01.469

done from 1929, you know, to about 1932, and I was taking that $2550 a quarter that you had to raise. So I only took some, some years, some, some time in that period I only took two courses. Well, like, like, never took a full course like

00:33:01.469 - 00:33:15.209

today, like today used to sometimes you had to go a semester and drop out, drop out and go back in, that's the type of thing that happened to me. Who was your girlfriend? I think your sophomore year in college. Man, I had all kinds of girlfriends.

00:33:15.359 - 00:33:29.030

One stood out the most, you know, none of them except the gal I married, and I've been married to her for 36 years. Well, let's see, how, how, how long after you graduated did you get married? I got married in 39 and you graduated in 40,

00:33:29.119 - 00:33:47.760

right? I graduated in 39, right? Did you meet her in college? Yeah, at, at the University of Minnesota. Yeah. Her father was an architect. What's your, what's your wife's name? Muriel Elizabeth Wigginton. And her father's name Wiggins Clarence Wigginton. OK. And how did you, what were

00:33:47.760 - 00:34:09.959

the circumstances of you meeting your wife? Oh well, she, uh, Yeah, parties and things like that, and I met her at a Halloween party. Took to the show a couple of times. We went together for about 10 years. Of the in to dance. Well, well, we,

00:34:09.969 - 00:34:28.199

uh, started out, you know, back in those days, Charleston and all that kind of stuff. Oh, sure, I'm a normal person. Uh, uh, what kind of, what kind of clothes did you wear? I never wore a zoot suit. You didn't wear a zoot suit? No. What

00:34:28.199 - 00:34:52.000

did you wear? Well, uh Bell bottom pants. I wore bell bottom pants. Uh, did you have a letter in college? Never did. No. All right, uh, you got married in 1939. Uh, uh, did you ever go into the military? No. Why not? Well, I had, uh,

00:34:52.399 - 00:35:13.760

I went through the line just like everybody else. I had ROTC two years. I've been in good shape if I'd gone to the military cause I ended up with a Uh, as a, as a corporal. and uh But I had uh maybe 6 or 7 operations

00:35:13.760 - 00:35:40.310

for fistulas and a fistula. That's the scarred tissue and the scarred tissue when I got that last room. And the man says, crack them. Right and I've looked at this thing and uh. I'm at is make no difference to me. Sorry. Exces. So that's when I

00:35:41.010 - 00:36:01.709

started working for International Harvester. I made some good money. Where was this? In Saint Paul, Saint Paul. What were the circumstances of you coming to Kansas City? Well, I graduated and, uh, looking for a job. I wrote every black college in the country. For a job

00:36:02.110 - 00:36:28.270

and, uh, I had 2 Offers, one for at Tennessee State. And at that particular time, the President Hill. He never saw the face of your chick. And uh if he hadn't been half-brothers to the governor, he, he'd probably been in jail. Because, uh, he was nice

00:36:28.270 - 00:36:48.439

off there and I had one from Saint Augustine in Florida. So, uh, I did some volunteer work with the, uh, Urban League. My first, uh, Brush the Urban League was one of the I was looking for a job in Elmer Carter. Who later went to New

00:36:48.439 - 00:37:13.090

York for the editor opportunity and then he went to New York State scad. As director. Big black man, a Yale graduate, spoke perfect English in that Asian accent. So, uh, Elmer got me my first job shining shoes at Schuman's department store where in Saint Paul, but

00:37:13.229 - 00:37:27.520

in Kansas City. How did you get to Kansas City? Well, I did volunteer work with S. Vincent Owen for 2 years. Who's S. Vincent Owen? He was the executive director in Saint Paul of the Urban League. Um. All right. Incidentally, Whitney Young worked under, under S.

00:37:27.590 - 00:37:48.209

Vincent Owens in, in Saint Paul, in Saint Paul. Yeah. All right. How did you come to Kansas City? Well, I made an application to the Urban League for what position? National Urban League as an industrial relations secretary. And, um, Webster, who was the executive here. And

00:37:48.209 - 00:38:10.949

had 4 industrial relations secretaries in 2 years. So Guicard Parris, who was on the National Urban League staff, had gone up to Minneapolis for a conference, and Webster had him interview me. And I got the OK from Paris, so I was called down here. On the

00:38:14.840 - 00:38:42.340

3rd of July. 1946 for an interview for what position as industrial relations secretary. And one of the Questions asked if I took the job. Would I stay as, as a, would I stay for 4 years because it was quite eternal. I told him. And that was

00:38:43.199 - 00:39:02.669

That commitment was, uh, not too good. Why, why do you say that in that period of time, um, I had a job offer in Denver. I had a job offer in Los Angeles, which I turned down because of the commitment. But turn, you know, in terms

00:39:02.669 - 00:39:18.229

of, so it did that tie you to Kansas City tied me to Kansas City, and you were the type of individual that lived up to his time. I do that, yeah, so. I stayed on Well, when I have an important question here. The near Pemberton up

00:39:18.229 - 00:39:37.959

to this point was not racial oriented at all. Oh yeah, definitely. Well, what did, what, what did you become racially oriented right after, uh, racially oriented, excuse me, right after I, um, I would say it started about the junior year in college. What happened? Couldn't get

00:39:37.959 - 00:40:04.000

a job in Minneapolis nor Saint Paul, other than service type of occupation of the railroads. There was discrimination during the war years, as you recall. Blacks were not in the industrial operation until you, until FEPC came in. FEPC, what's that? hm, what's the FEPC? The, uh,

00:40:05.310 - 00:40:28.000

well, moving right along. What's the SABC you mean you don't know what FEBC was. I don't know what this A Phil Randolph and uh Mrs. uh Roosevelt. Set up Equal employment back in the war years. So, uh, Luke Clymer, Judge Luke Clymer, incidentally was one of

00:40:28.000 - 00:40:46.899

the person I interviewed for the job here was, uh, On that staff at one time and that's when we started breaking in the industry that's here in Kansas City everywhere, OK. And it started right here in Kansas City. Baz Bade and a few of them uh

00:40:48.030 - 00:41:08.780

I met with Roy, I was, uh A Randolph. Because everything was closed to them, so things began to open up as a result of that the. The plant out here, the whole uh Several plants opened up. As a result of of that, you see as a

00:41:08.780 - 00:41:27.830

forerunner to the other, so. Then suddenly Lanier Pemberton is not identifying now. I mean, oh yeah, yeah, totally, totally identify it is totally identification to do something about black people. So you never had the experience of Being locked out of your room at 20 degrees below

00:41:27.830 - 00:41:49.879

zero because you didn't have the money to pay rent. So from that point on, I said, my God, I dedicate my life to opening up some job opportunities for blacks. Because it was kind of rough. I slept in the police station overnight. And the next day

00:41:49.879 - 00:42:08.340

I went to work and made enough money to pay the rent. This is in Minnesota. Uh, what were some of your, your first responsibilities in coming to Kansas City then? Well, at that time, uh, a survey had been made by the National Urban League for, uh,

00:42:11.540 - 00:42:37.639

What blacks had done in, in employment. You had a sep separate, you had a separate hospital situation. All of the professional jobs were located. Public Works Department. Yeah. Blacks in there, but there are only 7. Working at City Hall. Throughout all city hall, all city hall,

00:42:37.760 - 00:42:59.100

it was, they had 7 elevator operators. The Mayor Kemp said we got some nice elevator operators. Well, approximately what year was it? Hm, what year? 1947, 1947. And uh They had the first person appointed, I mean, who worked at City Hall was in the tax department.

00:42:59.979 - 00:43:18.250

Do you know who that was? I can't think of his name offhand right now. I can recall. I guess it's in the records here. He's out, he went, he later quit and moved out to California. Uh, you had, uh, was there any or marching, no, I

00:43:18.250 - 00:43:51.060

don't know, in 19. 48. There was a work stoppage. And for 20 minutes. At at the Chevrolet division of General Motors here here because general organized that. General Motors. I decided to put some people on the assembly line. Black people. And that morning they put him

00:43:51.060 - 00:44:10.179

on and they walked out. Who walked out? The whites, OK. Who did Urban League organize that, uh. Put those people to work at, yeah, I talked to Nelson who was the personnel director. And what happened was they brought in their, uh, Union leaders from Detroit to

00:44:10.179 - 00:44:33.510

come out here and talk to them about that. It wasn't until a year later. Happened because they had union had to straighten that out. They had the UAWCIO. Fairfax Department, Bill Oliver. Walter Ruther. Walter Luther came down. Walter Ruther came down, OK, in the final analysis.

00:44:33.649 - 00:44:57.800

Now is there any violence? No. Then we organized a group over in uh Buick automobile and Pontiac division. You see, now, back in those days, You only had, out of a workforce of 2000 with 27 blacks there. You had departmental seniority. And uh in order to

00:44:57.800 - 00:45:28.760

uh Go from one to the other, you lose your seniority. There's no, What happened was, we, we met and a fellow named Cleveland Fisher. They named this person that they would Back to being The bargaining committee chairman. For their department. They all came out to you.

00:45:30.800 - 00:45:57.159

And he won. And, uh, So Cleveland. They tried to object to the election. They did everything, but, uh, the Yeah. The national, international upheld the election. So a deal was made then that if he jumped, if he would resign from the bargaining committee chairman for his

00:45:57.159 - 00:46:14.530

department that they would integrate. Mhm. So he put him on the line. That was interesting too. They had 2 men working on transmissions. Which is a backbreaking job and as soon as Black got on that thing, they put them, they put one man on there, knocking

00:46:14.530 - 00:46:39.000

out those transmissions. Now, here's a picture. Of, uh, this is taking at Perry's. You know at Perry's, they had a little catering station. Now, all these fellows here. Yeah, this, this is Ms. Hatcher and Bill Oliver, and myself. It was sort of a victory celebration. Uh,

00:46:39.010 - 00:47:05.350

with this, so from that point on, they reintegrated. So, uh, That was one breakthrough. Where were your offices then? 180. Clive Vine, who was mayor Kemp. Mayor Kemp, do you have any association with Mayor Kemp other than sitting down with him and cooking him about the

00:47:05.629 - 00:47:46.040

personnel practices there? We, we set up a A brief is back in the files. Their employment we need What. CEO. Presented Um, um, um, who was president? On the board, no national. I guess, uh, When did Roosevelt die? No, it wasn't really. I guess it was,

00:47:46.129 - 00:48:04.850

wasn't that part of this time. Who was, who was president of the national at that point. Bally. Um, Lloyd Garrison, Lloyd Garrison. Uh, how do you compare him in regards to Whitney Young, Vernon Jordan? Are you talking about the executive director or the, well, oh, I'm

00:48:04.850 - 00:48:28.219

talking about the executive director. Oh, Lester Granger. All right. How do you compare Lester Granger with Whitney Young, Vernon Jordan? Well, Lester Granger was a pioneer, and he was the one that held the thing together. She budget, they had a budget. National budget of $80,000. When

00:48:28.219 - 00:48:55.709

Whitney was on board, he brought that up, from that up to about $4 million. No, Vernon, Vernon, but it has dropped drastically on the basis that These foundations have big givers of More or less, uh, cut back. All that, so they're not getting as much. Contributions.

00:48:56.540 - 00:49:16.620

And being new on staff this type of thing. And the thing that Vernon has done though. He's initiated business practices into the National Urban League. He's consolidated this thing. He put in a computer information system. He's done a number of things on more of a businesslike

00:49:16.620 - 00:49:34.459

basis. Administrative. He's a stronger administrator than either Whitney or Lester. So you have high regard for him. I have a high regard for him. He's a young man too. So he's doing an excellent job that way. What was the, uh, let's say the biggest operation he's

00:49:34.459 - 00:49:53.570

been involved with in Kansas City in regards to the European League, you know, you mean what, uh, as far as civil rights legislation is concerned. Well, we worked on the, uh, when David Kenney Neil was in legislation, we got the human relations commission. Oh, see, what

00:49:53.570 - 00:50:17.540

did you think of Jay Kennedy? He was a very good. represent He was about the only one that was able to tie in those rural legislators and be able to have them cooperate with. He was the prime force in saving Lincoln University from, uh, from. Being

00:50:17.540 - 00:50:38.389

wiped off the board. Mhm. Because of the, the help he received from the rural legislature that he had a little people. You worked with. Was he articulate? Very much so. Another thing, you know, people don't talk about this one, but when Jamie Ken and Neal went

00:50:38.389 - 00:50:54.790

in the United States, you couldn't even get a hamburger or hot dog at that restaurant, I mean at that snack bar where in at the Capitol, the Capitol. That was one of the things that happened. We couldn't, when he first went down there, he had to

00:50:54.790 - 00:51:13.209

stay with a preacher. And McKinley Neal was a fairly light individual too, wasn't he. I don't know what do you call it. Are you talking about in terms of skin color? Well, you know Neil as well as I do. He wasn't, he was not. He's recognized

00:51:13.209 - 00:51:33.750

as black. So he, uh, I'd say to me he was an excellent job. He's a pioneer down there. Did you have any, um, association with, uh, um, um, um. Kendrick Ailes. That was before my time here. Did you, do you, what, what recollections do you have

00:51:33.750 - 00:51:47.350

of the early days of the Citizens Association of Kansas and Missouri? Well, that was before my time. Reverend Holmes was in there. Did you ever meet Reverend Holmes? Did I meet with him? He's a very good, very good friend of mine. Tell me about Reverend Holmes.

00:51:47.590 - 00:52:12.179

Reverend Holmes was a pioneer, you know, pioneer, and, uh, a very good politician. And, uh, eloquently, he had some people that stood by him, you know. In there with the coalition as a member of the Citizens, we broke up this. Uh-huh Uh, who was, uh, let's

00:52:12.179 - 00:52:32.179

say the outstanding figures when you initially came from Kansas, Kansas City? Well, it's Carl Johnson, naturally, Rever home. The two outstanding individuals when I first came and I guess McKinnon Neal was then also well, McKinney came in a little later than that. I'm talking about when

00:52:32.179 - 00:52:55.770

I first came. She was elected. to the legislature. There's been several people. He was the first one elected. What about Leon Jordan? Well, Leon was in the police force there. And at that time, you know, uh, they never hired over 22 police because if they had

00:52:55.770 - 00:53:18.060

hired any more than that, it was separate. Arraignment with that police station down on there. Fine. You had to meet a black sergeant. So they did, they did. Mm. That was about the number you had. 22 is as far as you could go. About what year

00:53:18.060 - 00:53:38.530

was that this type of thing was going on? 47, 1948, 1949. Uh, backing up a little bit, where were you the day of the bombing of Pearl Harbor? In, uh, Saint Paul, watching TV, I mean, listening to the radio. How did it affect you? I don't

00:53:38.530 - 00:53:57.699

know. Everybody was shook up, you know, just like everybody else. It wasn't until the next day that we, uh, But you know, uh, Buzzb came on the air. Day of infamy, announced that Pervan debo. Uh, you know, when I first finished college and I started working

00:53:57.699 - 00:54:12.379

for the Human Resources Corporation, um, Uh, one of the first names that was, was, was mentioned that I should see or get to know was Liai Premerton, you know, I guess is that you established that type of credibility throughout Kansas City with both Black and White

00:54:12.919 - 00:54:34.659

sectors. What do you attribute that credibility to? The fact that you're dedicated to the job. My whole thrust, as I pointed out to you from that shoeshine stand on was to develop better job opportunities. For black blacks. I could have gotten out of the urban made

00:54:35.489 - 00:54:52.610

many a time and made some money. When I worked in Chicago, I could have When did you go to Chicago? Since 1950. What happened in Chicago? I worked there for five years with who? Urban Lee. OK, what, what, what, what, what did you do in Chicago?

00:54:52.729 - 00:55:11.780

I was director of the, uh, industrial relations. I had a staff of 6 people. So your whole thing has been labor-oriented, huh, since, since college all the way through. What did you think about Jimmy Hoffa? Quite a guy. Because the teams union has always been open

00:55:11.780 - 00:55:29.699

to blacks. Yeah, I always been over. You think he's dead. I certainly do. Cause there were some tie-ins there. He was a rough, see that union there, still the roughest union. You know, in terms of how you deal with this thing, and then you get out

00:55:29.699 - 00:55:48.389

of line there, you get your head blown off anytime at that particular time. Coffey was a czar. Anytime he went to jail, they paid him his salary. He got out of jail, he got a pension. And he could have taken over and he was about to

00:55:48.389 - 00:56:05.709

take you back. Is that what that's why he got his ear blown, I think so. But still it's, it's for blacks, it's always been open. Still is open. There's no particular problem as far as you getting a job. What other unions do you think are open

00:56:05.709 - 00:56:28.350

to blacks? All of them now. Do you feel that there'd be any, uh, control on, on, on the part of unions by blacks? They control one union now, that's the laborers. For what, um, locally, locally, and that's, uh, uh, that's Leo McCain, right. Um, What direction

00:56:28.350 - 00:56:45.689

do you think, do you feel that, that, that, that, that the labor movement is gonna go in next? Well, the more and more they price themselves out of the market and some sooner or later, they're gonna have to realize that they, they can only go so

00:56:46.100 - 00:57:14.659

far and now. Um, present time, a lot of these unions now have kept See, if you've taken economics, you recognize it. In that curve that you have. That wages are the last to go up. Everything prices go up and that business cycle. Was the last to

00:57:14.659 - 00:57:38.909

come up. No, and that's, that's the way it is now. So that this press for increases in wages. has a, has a tendency to keep inflation going because at the same time, Business must reap so much of a profit. And I think that they take too

00:57:38.909 - 00:57:55.340

big a bite. In terms of how much profit they make, so that's the reason why you have these strikes and wages. Do you, do you think that, uh, that, that the union movement in the United States is going to deal with prices at one point? You're

00:57:55.340 - 00:58:09.149

gonna have sooner or later we're gonna have to come into price controls, or you think the union is gonna get involved in price controls. I think they will. If nothing else, there'll be some kind of. Controls cause the way the thing is if you don't then

00:58:09.149 - 00:58:28.500

you're going to head in control. Uh, all right. In the last 10 years or 15 years you've seen come and go several mayors, uh, uh, you've seen, you've seen AO Bardo, you've seen. Alice Davis, you've seen now you see Miror Wheeler. Um, I can't go personally

00:58:28.500 - 00:58:48.600

beyond that point. Which one of those mirrors did you feel was most effective? Davis, you think Honest Davis Davis had the power structure behind him. And for that reason, you see, this is a controlled town. You might have about 3 inches here. What are those interests

00:58:48.600 - 00:59:08.550

would you say banking interests Kemper Kemper Abernathy. Oh, that's, so you've got that to deal with, see, and so for that reason. Uh, Davis had the year of the, of the power structure, but Davis did a lot of things, for example, supported public accommodation orders which

00:59:08.550 - 00:59:27.729

was upheld. Do you, do you believe that, uh, But you got to recognize also that this is a managerial form of government. Well, in Kansas City it's not a strong mayor government, no, right, so. The only thing you can do is to say to a mayor

00:59:27.729 - 00:59:47.899

who has a strong backing of his council. Makes things move. So, he has, Davis has the support of the council. Everything he did, at least up to the point, he had a majority of people on the council with him. Well, I can say this, uh, In

00:59:47.899 - 01:00:02.679

regards to Isis Davis that, uh, I'm interviewing him. I want, I'm doing the second interview with him, uh, Saturday and, uh. Uh, he spoke quite highly of you also. Well, I know that, but we had a good, I had a good relationship with all the mayors.

01:00:02.879 - 01:00:16.669

Would you support Alice Davis if he ran again? He ran for anything, I'd support him. I think. What do you think about HO Bartha, the finest man I ever met in Kansas City, and he was really a I met, uh, see, I, when I left Kansas

01:00:16.669 - 01:00:33.699

City, and went to Chicago, I heard him speak there and speak in Dayton. And uh he's the best Goodwill Ambassador Kansas ever had. But he had it in his heart. All right as far as the mirror is concerned, what kind of mirror was it? Well, at

01:00:33.699 - 01:00:51.250

that particular time, uh, he was just a figurehead. He pointed that out consistently. And the consul was certainly not uh behind him. Because at that time it was fashion control. So what fashion do you believe?