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Joe. Uh, good afternoon and thank you for coming. And on behalf of many people, we want to also thank you for participating in this project. Now, um, please tell me something, uh, about yourself, your family, and you living in, uh, growing up in, uh, Westport. Well,

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to tell you a little bit about, uh, myself and my family. Uh, my grandfather moved to Westport in 1929. Uh, my name is Mark Turner and uh the Turner family was one of two of the largest families in Westport. The other large family was the Avery

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family. Uh, my mother was born in 1933 at um on 43rd Street, just a little ways east of the church. That's Saint James Baptist Church on 508 West 43rd. Um, pretty much I lived in Westport all my life. Um, when I started school was, uh, kind

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of a, uh, significant time I, I think when you look at the picture that's behind me of Penn School. Penn School closed the year that I started in the grade school because of Brown versus uh the Topeka and once that happened then we had integration and

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the school was no longer no longer used. Now you, you mentioned, uh, uh, your mother or tell me something about your father and the work that uh he uh was involved in. Uh, he was uh in the Air Force and uh came back from Korea, um,

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had a little bit of a problem, uh, once he came back kind of little little bit what you might say shell shocked. Uh, my mother worked as an RN and, uh, out in the, uh, well she worked at Saint Luke's for a minute or two and

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then she worked at research also. So, uh, pretty much I, uh, most of my life was spent with my grandparents who, uh, my mother was the 14th child, they had 14 children and I was pretty much raised up by them so I was number 15. So,

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uh, that was, uh, a lot of it, but, uh, Westport was a good place to grow up at. I, I, uh, I still have a lot of fond memories and every time that I come around the area I think about things like, uh, 1963 when we

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had a block party and, uh, I think Martha Reeves and the Vandellas were coming out with Dancing in the Street and uh I thought that was done for our block party, you know, a lot of families. Well, now, including fun times, uh, we have, we have

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block parties. Uh, what about, uh, other places in the city, uh, parks, uh, maybe going on to soul park or going close to parks in the neighborhood, um. Um 12th and Vine, 18th and Vine. The one park that we always went to was Swill Park because

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that was the one park that we could go swimming at. So in the 50s that was the only place that uh a black kid could go swimming was Swill Park and we paid a quarter to go. So we would catch the bus, get all the way

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out, go across. A bridge that was called the swinging Bridge and uh we'd go across that and we'd go out there and swim and that was uh that was pretty much it. Uh we went to uh Roanoke Park and then uh that was that was kind

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of close. uh the park is close to where I grew up at which is Mill Creek Park wasn't there. Uh, they, it was a it was a space but it wasn't really a park and then we would uh kind of play there used to be a

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bridge going from uh Forty-third and um Um, Broadway, you had a bridge that went across there. I used to, uh, uh, the trolley used to run across there and they used to have trains that used to go across there and we used to, uh, just kind

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of play, uh, uh, we'd almost have like a little war thing that we'd play with some of the other kids, you know, uh, where we'd come through and they'd shoot their arrows and we'd throw our little dirt clogs and, uh, you know. Now what about uh

00:04:04.759 - 00:04:20.350

uh it seems like there might have been just an ounce of segregation back then. What about Fairyland Park? Fairyland Park was a place that you could go if you were African-American, you could go once a year. Now if you missed that one time during the year,

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you couldn't go any other time and uh Uh it's interesting because you never really thought anything about the segregation part until, um, you know, people started getting older. When I started in the grade school, everyone was in the same grade, no one knew any difference in

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55 and you know, if they came over to my house, my grandmother Give everybody milk and cookies and it wasn't any different, you know, and I myself, I played with everybody. You know, I played with the black kids, I played with the white kids and um

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it was uh some of my uh my uh white friends wanted to go see The Son of Flubber and that was playing at the um At the Uptown Theater and it was a young man that was a real light skinned Onya Sears that was in line

00:05:06.279 - 00:05:18.519

also that got to go in so I didn't see there was a problem with me. And when I got to the line, up to the ticket thing and put my quarter up there, the lady said I can't sell you a ticket. And I said, what did

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I do? She said, you didn't do anything and and and I I remember the look on her face because she had tears in her eyes. She said, I just can't sell you a ticket. And so I walked from Uptown theater all the way home in 1959

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and uh I asked my mother, I said I didn't do anything wrong, I didn't say anything bad and they wouldn't even sell me a ticket and that's when she had to explain to me about segregation which I tried to test it because I said this couldn't

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be so. So I went to a place called Wolf Burgers which was right up on Forty-third next to where the Starbucks is, it's right down the street next to that coffee place and um it was a um older white gentleman in there that was uh eating

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some soup and I came in and said I'd like to have my uh burger because we'd always stop at uh you know, Wolf Burgers and get double cheeseburger and all that stuff. I said I'd like to have mine here. The lady just looked at me and

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she made up my stuff and I said, but I said I wanted it here and she pointed to a little sign that was over the cook said, we have the right to refuse service to anyone. And so I said well I'll just take my 64 cents

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for a double cheeseburger, large order of fries and a malt, you know, I'm going on home, you know. Well now, uh, living close to the Westport being close to the Plaza, uh, what kind of reception did the African-Americans get on the plaza? Well, uh, you got

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one of, you know, uh, why, why are you down here? I mean uh we we we had that so much and we would ride in little packs, so it'd be about 10 or 15 of us on our bikes, you know, so we'd come down and you

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know, of course security had something to say. You know, that we've taken a purse or we've done something and you know we'd tell where we came from and they'd kind of leave us alone but we weren't made real welcomed when we came to the plaza and

00:07:04.869 - 00:07:18.170

we played things like ditch them and uh Sears and stuff like that when we'd uh when we would come down to the plaza and uh You know, uh, see the plaza lights on and I think a lot of people got confused because when there were white

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people that would come through the area trying to find the plaza, they were always amazed because they see all of us standing on the corner of 43rd and Pennsylvania, the plaza is just 4 blocks down, yeah, just 4 blocks down. And and and you know the

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funny thing about that is there was so much different types of segregation I think in the area, but as a group, we all stood together. Uh, I, and I remember a time it was some of the older guys and there was a white guy that would

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come that was in the neighborhood and, and some black guys came from across town to jump on him. And so when they came over, we all, you know, all the older guys got and said if you fight him, you're fighting us. And they said, what do

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you mean? He said, well, he's from Westport. So we kind of watched out for our own, you know, that was in that and er that was pretty much the case. If you were from Westport, you were from Westport. You know, and it didn't really make, I

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mean when I was coming through and that's, you know, during the 60s which was really kind of a a a turbulent time but you know, it was er a lot of things that I saw that were that were really kind of special. Uh I think of

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my grandfather who was raised in a situation where um uh blacks were Only allowed to have things like cornbread one day a week and the rest of the time they had to eat from whatever the pigs ate from and uh he'd tell me these stories a

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lot of times and uh there was a little white kid named James May. I never forgot that. I think I was in about the 3rd or 4th grade and all the black kids would would mess with him every day and here I am, I'm the smallest

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thing around and I stood up to everybody and said, you know, if you jump on him, you're gonna have to jump on me. So I'd walk him home every day. And so nobody would jump on him and his grandparents, they just thought that because he was

00:09:01.299 - 00:09:15.510

raised by his grandparents too. And they thought that was just the the the neatest thing that I would, you know, take that time to spend to make sure he got home OK. So his grandfather came over to meet my grandfather and me and me and James,

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we would play out in front and grandpa and his grandpa would sit up on the porch and play checkers, which always kind of keeps in my mind, here's a man that had more things happen to him. That were as far as racial bias than you could

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ever imagine, but he never talked about hate, he never really talked about any kind of prejudice. I mean, he treated, he always taught me to treat people just, you know, uh, not, not by their skin color, but by the way they treat you and even if

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they don't treat you right, you shouldn't, you know, you shouldn't treat them wrong. And they would sit up and play checkers and they they'd not. Not just once, they just do it time and time again and I saw this guy James May once I once I

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got older and um he just told the at the place he was working he just told so many people a story. I couldn't believe this guy just walked me home every day and his grandfather would play checkers with my grandfather and that was I thought that

00:10:08.200 - 00:10:24.869

was so special and I you know it was just just part of the neighborhood. Now who were some of the uh uh friends that you rode a bicycle with down to the plaza and played games with? It was uh Michael Adams, uh his uh Gary Adams,

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uh, Chucky, Chucky Jones, uh, he was there. um, Onaa Sears, he would sometimes go with us, but, uh, he was a little bit younger, so he didn't, he didn't hang out with us a whole. A lot, but uh it was a whole bunch of us uh

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Marty Smith, uh Lloyd, everybody had a nickname. Now uh Marty Marty was just Marty but Lloyd Smith was leopard, uh Michael Adams was DeD and Donald Adams was Fannie and I was Macy and uh you know we'd we'd all just get on our bikes and ride

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and we we we we caught a lot of flack riding around the Westport area because uh You know, uh, the, uh, a lot of times the the people uh would some of the kids would say, you know, here come the ends and they'd let their dogs

00:11:08.559 - 00:11:20.320

go or shoot at us with BB guns and, uh, you know, it was always I always took it kind of as a challenge to see if I could get by the dog not grabbing my leg or anything and I ride through those areas sometimes and I

00:11:20.320 - 00:11:35.320

think about that. You know, just ride over by uh Roanoke and Holly and uh you know some of those streets terrace because we rode all around. I mean we were just a group. Now riding around but you all still recognize that there was maybe some uh

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Uh, racial boundaries and barriers. Uh, yeah, we, we, we, we understood about the racial barriers, but, and, and the boundaries, but who cared? You know, I'm gonna ride my bike wherever I want to ride my bike and I'm gonna go to the plaza and if they

00:11:49.849 - 00:12:01.369

don't like me going to the plaza, you know, there's nothing I'm doing wrong and we go to Nelson's Art Gallery, we do that, we played ditch them in there too. That was another place that we would go and uh we'd do that an awful lot and

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uh I used to love to do that. That was Fun. And now, what about, um, uh, uh, let's see. Summertime work for youngsters and tell me something about uh uh where you went to school and summer jobs. Well, there, there wasn't really summer jobs. I I

00:12:21.950 - 00:12:35.619

I think somebody that was just here that I know from way back uh remembered me when I was younger so I was always the guy that kept money. I, I found jobs myself. In 1962 I started my own little call paper route around the area and,

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uh, everybody, you know, they could have a bill and they could pay me once. A month for their call paper and if they were down on the plaza and they were doing uh custodial work and they lived below in those apartments, as you're going down Jefferson,

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I delivered a paper to the door and so I did that and then I threw papers for the Westport Reporter which was a little uh uh kind of a weekly newspaper that came out. I threw that every week and then uh I, uh, you know, ran

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errands for people. My grandfather's always good on finding me jobs and so if someone needed someone to go to the store, I'd do that and, uh, it was a gentleman named Mr. Paul, he lived on 43rd and Penn and, uh, he would do all types of

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uh yard work and things like that and if someone wanted to build a house or something, he'd clear out the uh Uh the the the area and, and he'd take us out there and uh I was one of the ones that he would take. I'd always

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volunteer because at that time, uh I think that was in '63, he was giving us a dollar and a quarters and $1 and a 25 cents and he had a little clock there to let us know, you know, how long we would work and so we

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got our 8 hours, so that was $10. And $10. A kid, you know, 1213, getting $40 in a week. I, when, when the ice cream man came around, everybody wanted to hang around me because I had always had some money. So I found my own jobs.

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I always have. Now, uh, you didn't get a chance to go to Penn school because uh that's when, uh, uh, integration kicked in. Where did you go to school? I went to Allen. Went to Allen School. Matter of fact, Allen is right now a charter school

00:14:05.799 - 00:14:22.090

at, um, 70 706 West 42nd Street. I still remember the uh the address which is it's kind of ironic. My two grandchildren both went to Allen uh as a as a charter school and then I found out it was a friend of mine that was the

00:14:22.090 - 00:14:39.500

principal there and so I went from Allen's school from kindergarten on to 7th grade. And then, uh, what was advanced education. Well, you know, after uh I I tell you the biggest thing that I remember about and the only reason I think that I ever had

00:14:39.840 - 00:14:52.400

advanced education is because of a teacher I had there and that was Miss Schaff. You know, a lot of the uh teachers, they didn't really want to deal with the new black kids that were coming in and uh we were kind of put off to the

00:14:52.400 - 00:15:06.833

side or uh I know one young lady, uh, I think um was at church on Sunday, uh uh Vita Roulette uh talked about how uh They were made to stay out for recess a little bit longer and she didn't know that it was just because they

00:15:06.833 - 00:15:18.992

didn't want them in the class and so we were always just kind of the ones that, well we got to deal with them but we're not real happy about it. And then came Miss Schaff who uh really just kind of took me under, under, you know

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how you always have one teacher that you just really remember and I had a problem with a little problem with reading and she worked with me on my reading and and told me that I could be anything that I wanted to be and Uh, she just

00:15:31.906 - 00:15:48.575

put, I mean, as far as self-esteem and uh everybody that went through that school, everybody when they got to Miss Schaff's class and she taught three grades, 5th, 6th and 7th and everybody came out of Miss Schaff's class saying what a great teacher. I mean, because

00:15:48.585 - 00:16:02.719

she, you know, she didn't a lot of other teachers didn't like her but she made us feel as though we were welcomed that we could do anything and that we could be anybody and uh when I left and went to high school. I lettered varsity on

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cross country and uh I was the first person to uh letter varsity at Westport High School in cross country in 10 years and the first person I went back to show my letter to was Ms. Schaff and then she had me talk to the class. She

00:16:16.700 - 00:16:31.020

just passed away last year and uh that was uh uh for someone that uh I went to school with 5th, 6th and 7th grade, so we're looking at in the 60s. I kept in contact with her for over 40 years, you know, just to see how

00:16:31.020 - 00:16:45.659

she was and uh Um, after that, you know, I, there wasn't anything that I, I couldn't do. I mean, uh, when I went to high school, my, uh, guidance counselor told me that I should probably look at heating and air conditioning because I didn't have the

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grades to go to college and I, I just really wish that she could see me today because I'm a full-time, uh, professor at a college. And I have 2 master's degrees, a bachelor's degree in telecommunications, and a degree in electronics from DeVry. Now that was the,

00:17:01.510 - 00:17:12.119

the thing they told me that I couldn't do. But see, the only, the only thing that stayed in my mind was what Ms. Schaff always said is that you could do anything because my, I always told her I was gonna be the first, uh, black Supreme

00:17:12.119 - 00:17:30.699

Court judge and then Thurgood Marshall came in and I said, well, I'll be the second. Now was this Shap white? Yes, uh, now what was the faculty, uh, like at Allen and, uh, Westport, uh, blacks to black and white teachers? I did not have a black

00:17:30.699 - 00:17:46.719

teacher until I was a freshman in college. There were no black teachers that I saw at Westport at the time I went there and I started there in the eighth grade in 1964 and I went there through 1969 and uh we didn't have we didn't have

00:17:46.719 - 00:18:04.599

any black teachers and at and at uh Allen school there were no black teachers. The only black person that was at Allen's school was um Miss Winfrey and uh her, her daughter uh lived in the area. um Jane, uh, I can't remember her last name but

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her house is right, right across from the church and her parents uh had the house and she was uh living in the same house she was born in. They got that and uh I think uh I read that somewhere that uh you you might have covered

00:18:18.439 - 00:18:33.319

that I think. Now what about, um, again, you went from Allen, Westport and uh what college? Uh, first I went to college out in Los Angeles. I went to uh Los Angeles City College and I ran track out there. I, I ran track in high school

00:18:33.319 - 00:18:49.670

and in college and, uh, I was a miler and a 2 miler and, uh, after, uh, doing that and, uh, having the incorrect, I didn't have the correct, uh, major when I was in school. I was majoring in PE when I first started school. And uh

00:18:49.920 - 00:19:03.130

for a lot of people thought that I was going into physical education when I said PE but for me PE was party and entertainment. That was what I was majoring in so uh I Didn't really pay any attention to school until I got a little bit

00:19:03.130 - 00:19:20.810

older and uh I think uh a little bit more wiser. Now, again, how many uh uh brothers and sisters did you have? I have one sister and uh she lives in California. And uh we were, we were raised separately. She was there with uh my uh

00:19:20.810 - 00:19:32.989

aunt and I lived with my grandparents in Kansas City. But we we kept in contact which was is it was kind of strange because we, you would have thought we were raised together because we think so much alike on a lot of different issues. So I

00:19:32.989 - 00:19:51.530

have one sister, 1 sister, 3 grandchildren, 3 great nieces and 2 nieces. Uh, now when you think back on again uh Westport and the fun times and maybe uh some of the uh times that were going on, uh things that were going on in the uh

00:19:51.530 - 00:20:13.680

60s, um who in uh Westport um was um you know, some of your inspirational personalities uh maybe at church or uh out in the community. I think the one that uh stands out and one guy that stands out in my mind was uh Paul Williams. Uh

00:20:13.680 - 00:20:27.025

his father and him because uh Paul Williams worked uh for the um uh post office and he just would, he was always just riding around and talking to you about something. You know, and I I I thought that That was, I thought that was really pretty

00:20:27.025 - 00:20:39.505

neat that uh that he would take the time as a kid and his son was big into playing golf and uh we talked I I matter of fact I've seen his son here just recently and uh he's still, you know, uh doing what he's doing but

00:20:39.625 - 00:20:52.810

you know as far as for the the people that were really inspirational I I you know. I, it still goes back to Ms. Schaff. I mean, because I was the, I was the bad kid. I was the bad kid that everybody put in the hallway. I

00:20:52.810 - 00:21:06.329

was the one that made the teachers cry. I was the one they said would never amount to anything and I was the only person that I could think of that always would say, you know, You can be somebody. So, and, and, and you know, and, and

00:21:06.329 - 00:21:21.819

I think there's one thing that still sticks in my mind when you look at some of the, the segregation things that, that, that I remember. Um, I went to my first funeral in 1955 and that was because my uncle Vernell was stabbed. And he was stabbed

00:21:21.819 - 00:21:33.489

and he went to Saint Luke's Hospital and when he went to Saint Luke's Hospital, they would not take him because they did not take blacks at that time so he had to go across town and he lost too much blood and that's why he died. And

00:21:33.489 - 00:21:44.530

Saint Luke's was the closest place for him to go. And and that kind of stays into my mind because, you know, as I got older, I didn't, that was the first time I'd ever been to a funeral, you know, and then when I heard what happened

00:21:44.530 - 00:21:55.410

and as I got older, I kind of put a lot of that together and it just made me think that, you know, there was a lot of things that I saw that and and again, I'm I'm living with a guy that had a lot of things

00:21:55.410 - 00:22:14.540

that happened to him and he never said you shouldn't like this person and you shouldn't like that person. Now you mentioned Saint Luke's and Saint Luke's is one of the pillar institutions in the area. Uh, what was some of the, um, uh, job and, and, uh,

00:22:14.589 - 00:22:32.260

positions that people maybe held at Saint Luke's or who did people work for in that community? Um, for Saint Luke's, uh, most of the African-Americans usually worked in the laundry. And um I think Hattie Locke was somebody that worked in the laundry. Um when my mother

00:22:32.260 - 00:22:46.739

got there and worked as a nurse's aide, I think that was uh we've gotten pretty much to the 60s. Now, my aunt worked right below and she worked at Saint Luke's way back in the, in the 50s. She was married to my uh my mother's older

00:22:46.739 - 00:23:01.689

brother, Viola Turner and she worked for a place called Dixon Dively and uh they were um They're right on the other side of Saint Luke's and she was the first black to work in a physical therapy uh in that area and she worked at Saint Luke's

00:23:01.689 - 00:23:15.030

off and on way into her seventies. But uh she was there for a number of years and then I came back because of the guy. that owned the place liked me so much that uh they had me come back and shovel the snow and you know,

00:23:15.270 - 00:23:28.060

gave me extra money and I'd go down and help my aunt and uncle because they'd clean up the place. Now she worked there in the day as a physical therapist and then come back at night with my uncle and we'd all clean the place. Well, now,

00:23:28.119 - 00:23:47.229

uh, with that experience, or you know, did they ever say anything about maybe, uh, Saint Luke's being segregated but, uh, good friendly staff? Um, nobody ever talked about it. You know, there was not anything that, you know, uh, I mean, you knew that it was certain

00:23:47.229 - 00:23:58.030

jobs you're gonna get at Saint Luke's and you knew there were certain jobs you're gonna get other places. I mean you look at some of the people that were in the, in the area. I mean we had, um, Mr. Brian that lived right across the street

00:23:58.030 - 00:24:09.790

from the church and I never knew this, he was a deacon at the church. He was a chauffeur for, uh, uh. Nelson uh uh Rock Hill well that had the art gallery in the Kansas City Star. He'd done that for years and see my grandparents didn't

00:24:09.790 - 00:24:23.989

have a car so he was the one that let me use his car to get my driver's license. And then you had um John McCraya that worked for Green Street, uh, what was that uh Greenleaf, the Cadillac people and he got a new Cadillac. Every year

00:24:23.989 - 00:24:37.189

and you knew when it was Saturday because he buffed that Cadillac every Saturday and I remember as a kid, I'd come by and he'd have, you know, he'd have a cigar or a pipe and I'd say, Uncle John, you're getting ready to buff the car because

00:24:37.189 - 00:24:50.969

see everybody knew me. I was called Paper Boy, you know, so either I was coming by to give you a paper or I was coming by to see why you hadn't paid your bill. One or the other. Well, now these are very interesting laughable stories. What

00:24:50.969 - 00:25:07.489

are some of the others that, uh, for an example, uh, we hear that that one time Charlie Parker went to Penn School. Uh, do you know any other personalities from, uh, that went to Penn school and they have lived close to, uh, uh, Westport? Um, you

00:25:07.489 - 00:25:21.089

know, the only one, that I had heard about, but see they were, they were so much older than me. You know, um, I think it was uh Doctor Cameron I heard that went to Penn School and then, you know, you had, uh, so many other people

00:25:21.089 - 00:25:34.410

that went, they, they either there was that or RC Cole, you know, so for me, Penn School was, uh, It was kind of uh one of those things that I looked at and and I remember when it caught on fire because it was a couple of

00:25:34.410 - 00:25:44.329

guys that uh at my high school that said that they had set it on fire and I didn't say anything, you know, a couple of white guys said they set it on fire and I just, I kind of stood back and just thought about it and

00:25:44.329 - 00:25:57.405

again I'm thinking of my grandfather, you know, I didn't get all upset or anything because uh A lot of patience and tolerance, I think that I learned from my grandfather. Just a lot of things I saw. I think there's ways that you can handle things in

00:25:57.405 - 00:26:07.685

a whole lot different way, and this was a man that came from Arkansas that didn't know how to read and didn't know how to write. But the only thing he said to me from the time I was in the kindergarten to the time I got out

00:26:07.685 - 00:26:19.839

of high school, he wouldn't say good morning to me. Every morning he'd say you better learn all you can because you don't know when you're gonna need it. And that's probably why I, I do what I do now as far as uh you know, uh teaching

00:26:19.839 - 00:26:31.885

at a college and and and everybody that knows me says I was always in school but I always remember what the old man said and that was my biggest Person, if I think of anybody in the community was, you know, an old guy from Crossett, Arkansas

00:26:32.145 - 00:26:48.390

that uh had 14 kids and uh he told me one time, he said, look what I've done for myself and I can't even read or write. What do you think I could have done if I'd had an education? Now we got, uh, it's interesting you mentioned

00:26:48.390 - 00:27:07.410

that someone may have said that, uh, Penn School, they burned and then Saint James Church at one time burned. What was going on in, uh, around the time all this burning was going on. Well, I think you had a lot of people that were looking at

00:27:07.410 - 00:27:21.050

maybe utilizing that property in a whole different way and uh it's it's it's kind of ironic the way the history kind of worked with that because the fire that we had, I think we had a lot of problems uh that were going on and then the

00:27:21.050 - 00:27:33.660

next thing I know the church was on fire, we didn't have adequate amount of insurance to deal with what needed to be dealt. dealt with and the thing that stuck out in my mind and, and here I go back to Saint Luke's again, was that the

00:27:33.660 - 00:27:48.489

chaplain that was at Saint Luke's personally walked up to the church and saw me out front and when he saw me out front, he said, I want to let you know that Saint Luke's will do anything that they can to help you guys with the loss

00:27:48.489 - 00:28:01.829

of your church and what they did, it was a place called Spencer. which right now that's been torn down at Saint Luke's. But what they did, they gave us all the Spencer Center, they had security come over and open it up. They didn't the first couple

00:28:01.829 - 00:28:14.150

of weeks that we were there, Saint Luke's let us have their main chapel and so our pastor then said, you know, we don't want to move your people out of church. He said no, whatever we can do and I really respected what that chaplain was doing

00:28:14.150 - 00:28:27.270

and he said we'll give you Spencer Center. So we had Spencer Center, no charge for rent, no charge for utilities. My wife's a big gardener and um I called and said, you know, uh we're going to try to plant some flowers up there and he came

00:28:27.270 - 00:28:42.000

up and he uh gave us uh all kinds of fertilizer and plants and everything else that we needed. Really a nice guy, really a nice guy. I mean and and to me that kind of uh uh uh really exemplified what Christianity is supposed to be about

00:28:42.000 - 00:28:57.739

and you know what caring is supposed to be about. So uh now, uh, tell me something about your wife and your children. Uh, well, uh, right now I've been married now for 27 years and, uh, my wife and I, we don't have any children, but I

00:28:57.739 - 00:29:15.890

was married previously and I have uh two children. I have a daughter that's uh 39 and I have a son that's 34. I have three grandchildren, a grandson that's 18, a granddaughter's 17, and another grandson that's 15. And my son is still trying to find his

00:29:15.890 - 00:29:40.979

self and uh my daughter uh is administrative assistant and uh she works at a uh charter school uh Don Bosco. So education, uh, uh, informal comes from, uh, uh, your parents and grandparents and then you, uh, what, uh, do you think, uh, is most needed in

00:29:40.979 - 00:29:57.900

Kansas City right now when it comes to education and especially maybe African-Americans. I think the biggest thing that needs to happen with education in in Kansas City is people to understand that everybody is at different levels and not just to try to put everybody in in

00:29:57.900 - 00:30:12.505

one big uh pot and say everybody should learn like this cause everybody's gonna learn differently and um I worked at a program called Teacher Corps and I did that uh it was the last part of the of the Peace Corps back under the Nixon administration and

00:30:12.505 - 00:30:26.410

our main objective was to work with kids in inner-city with reading and math problems and I think the problem that happens is that you just don't have people that care. You have people that are interested in a paycheck, you have people that are interested in getting

00:30:26.410 - 00:30:40.969

retirement, but I don't think people care about is this child really learning and and again I'm I I'm I I I I I hate going back but I I I have to. I look at M. Schaff, you know, does this kid is or is he really

00:30:40.969 - 00:30:53.199

learning? I mean, she took the time to care. She came by your house. She came by when my grandfather had a stroke, she came by to see how he was doing. My grandmother was sick. When I was in grade school, she came by the house, you

00:30:53.199 - 00:31:06.079

know, these teachers now, I don't, I don't think, I don't think the care is there and, and, and I see that a lot because, uh, before uh I teach at the Metropolitan Community Colleges and I, I taught at Penn Valley for a number of years and

00:31:06.079 - 00:31:18.969

I see students that would come in they couldn't, uh, you know, and I'm in the business department and I'm teaching stuff that uh they should already know, you know, how to write a paper, uh, you know, uh, marketing, other things that they should. Have some kind

00:31:18.969 - 00:31:32.709

of idea of where to start and nobody has an idea of where to start. Everybody is just, they're coming in because somebody told them that they needed to do something and the skills aren't there that they should have had in in in grade school and high

00:31:32.709 - 00:31:48.250

school. Now, I can tell the difference when now that I teach at a school like Maplewood, which, you know, Penn Valley is predominantly African-American, Maplewood is predominantly, uh, you know, uh, a white Anglo-Saxon. And you have people that are coming out of high school that know

00:31:48.250 - 00:32:00.880

how to do reports that I mean and see that, to me, I don't I don't think any child and it really bothers me when I talk about No Child Left Behind, there should have never been a Child Left Behind, you know, you see you have in

00:32:00.890 - 00:32:13.339

in in in white schools, they're taught to go to college, in black schools they're taught to get a job. So you know enough to be able to fill out an application. And that's about it. And then if you go somewhere you don't have anybody encouraging you.

00:32:13.569 - 00:32:25.770

I mean, I didn't have a guidance counselor that said, you know, maybe you ought to apply yourself and you know, uh, your, your, your grades could probably be better if you, uh, what are your study habits? She didn't care. She said, you know, heating and air

00:32:25.770 - 00:32:38.969

conditioning is where you ought to. Look at going into because in the 60s, more people are getting air conditions and uh you know, you could probably make, make a good living doing that. So I, I'm, I'm, I, I get very upset when I look at the

00:32:38.969 - 00:32:52.770

way the Kansas City School District is, is done and the and and the the the misfortune is the the kids. That are out there that can't put a whole sentence together, that can't write, you know, their name, not I, I mean I dealt with kids that

00:32:52.770 - 00:33:11.130

couldn't write their own name, not somebody else's name but their name. So when we think with that when you mentioned education and we look back at Westport, Westport being a nice uh community where uh parents were working. Uh, parents, uh, wanted their children to learn. Do

00:33:11.130 - 00:33:25.050

you think we have, uh, uh, these type of neighborhoods now like Westport across the city? Yes, yes, I think they're, I think they're, I think they're all over the city and, and, and I think a lot of times, uh, you've got teachers too that care, you

00:33:25.050 - 00:33:37.160

know, and and and I'm not gonna generalize and say that, you know, every teacher is not caring and, and every school is not giving what needs to be done. I, I think you've got parents And you've got students that really do care and and I think

00:33:37.160 - 00:33:49.280

one example and and not to just toot my own horn but it's looking at my daughter and the way that she pays attention to what's going on with her children and what they're doing in school. And I think if you just pay attention to what's going

00:33:49.280 - 00:34:05.189

on in school, I think you've got Westport's all over, you know, um, I think the biggest thing that happened from Westport were it was a group of it was a neighborhood of people who worked, you know. I'm, I'm uh 56 years old and I never knew

00:34:05.189 - 00:34:19.429

anything about getting welfare, food stamps or anything else, you know, because everybody in the house worked. I mean, you know, and that's what I was taught. I was taught that I started working at 9 years old and the people that are in Westport, they either were

00:34:19.429 - 00:34:33.020

plumbers, they were, uh, uh, you know, maybe they worked for uh the people that were out south of where some of the women might have done day work but they worked and They did an honest day's work and the biggest thing that they stressed to us

00:34:33.020 - 00:34:44.860

as kids is that if you had an education because they saw what was what had happened with the fact that they couldn't get an education because there was only certain schools you could go to. I mean, come on, in the 50s, if you didn't go to

00:34:44.860 - 00:34:59.949

Lincoln University, you know, here in Missouri that you weren't going anywhere else, you know, so I think that, you know, when I looked at the examples of all these people, I mean I saw People like uh Mr. Tunley who would uh would sit around and and

00:34:59.959 - 00:35:14.370

and he worked construction, you know, I I think of um um uh Mr. Shelby who was he was a school teacher I mean teaching was something that you had people that were either teachers and nurses, and those were the two big professions, you know. If you

00:35:14.370 - 00:35:29.340

were really going to do something, you know, and then you had someone like um um. And I can't even his name is escaping right now, but his mother lived right down next to where my mother was born and he was a lawyer and and went to

00:35:29.340 - 00:35:43.709

California and has done law for years and years. And you know you see people like that, you've got uh Danny Hudgins who uh uh his father grew up in uh well he grew up in Westport and uh he's a big exec with With IBM and was

00:35:43.709 - 00:35:55.070

the first black quarterback that they had up at KU and you know, and Danny was uh I mean he was one of the older guys, you know, one of the ones that you kind of looked up to and uh you know, when I look at lawyers

00:35:55.070 - 00:36:06.040

and and people with IBM, I mean, I went to Danny's house when I was in the 70s and I'm like, he's got a swimming pool and all this stuff. I mean, it just kind of gave me something to say, you know, That shows that those people

00:36:06.040 - 00:36:20.260

that were doing what they were doing every day to make sure that everybody had a meal were instilling something more than just the fact that you've got a roof over your head. They were instilling something that you can do whatever you put your mind to. Now,

00:36:20.340 - 00:36:39.760

uh, you mentioned, uh, sports and this young man from Westport going to, uh, KU, uh, you went to Westport. Did you ever play, um, uh, have, uh, um, play against, uh, Lincoln, uh, black school. I uh I ran track. I was a track guy because I

00:36:39.760 - 00:36:53.679

was too small to play football and so I ran against Lincoln, I ran against Manuel. Matter of fact, I ran against Central, uh, and, uh, uh, I've been there before and I I had rocks thrown at me because I I was one of the best in

00:36:53.679 - 00:37:09.149

the city. I was, uh, one of the youngest but one of the best in the city. I set the record for the 2 mile run out at um at Southeast High School back in 1968 and uh It was fun. Now, uh, again, on the same thing,

00:37:09.199 - 00:37:32.729

uh, what kind of respect, uh, did, um, the, uh, teams at Lincoln Central. Uh, have for Westport, which was white schools? Predominantly, predominantly white. I mean, uh, when I started in, uh, Westport, it was, uh, 1900 and 70 some students. Out of that 1900, uh, it

00:37:32.729 - 00:37:48.100

was 248 that were black starting when we started in eighth grade. And I found out the er information on that and it a few more came but it it wasn't er comparable and everybody just gave everybody the same respect. I mean, you know, I think of

00:37:48.100 - 00:38:02.280

a a teammate of mine, Mike McCrory. Mike McCrory was good in the hurdles, you know, it didn't make any difference what everybody else was was doing or or the uh you know, the er the back. Crown of them. It was just more so that Mike was

00:38:02.280 - 00:38:16.360

good, Mark Turner was good in the distance, Tony Chandler was good in the 100, and so there was, you know, Lincoln, Purcell, Manuel, Central. They just gave us our our respect because we were good, you know, and it didn't make any difference what school we went

00:38:16.360 - 00:38:32.209

to, you know, we stood out. What was the atmosphere when the teams played each other on home turf? Well, you didn't really have too much of a problem unless you were at at uh at uh Central sometimes because Central always had a model that we might

00:38:32.209 - 00:38:46.080

not win the game but we'll win the fight, you know. So that was that was about the biggest thing they had and other schools didn't give us too much of a problem er manual, er, Purcelle, Purcell wasn't bad, you know, it's more so just Central. Uh,

00:38:46.379 - 00:39:04.219

thinking back on, uh, this, uh, community of Westport, uh, there was a street at one time called, uh, uh, Steptoe. Do you remember anything about Steptoe? I don't remember anything about Steptoe and I think that's because I was uh younger, you know, probably my mother and

00:39:04.219 - 00:39:17.860

my aunts, I mean, uh, I've got an 80 year old aunt in California and an 84 year old aunt and they, uh, like I said, my grandfather came to Westport in 1929 and they were just young girls. That's why I was trying to look at these

00:39:17.860 - 00:39:33.050

pictures behind me because I feel like probably my aunt Myrtle, my aunt Hattie and my aunt Maddie, they were two twins. Hattie and Maddie were twins and they were probably going to Penn School at that time. And so uh Now, is there something that you would

00:39:33.050 - 00:39:54.389

like to say? You've said quite a bit. It's uh very interesting, uh, that, uh, maybe, um, um, a little bit more could be done to enhance the memory of, uh, Westport, uh, and the African-American people who lived there and people around it. Is there anything more

00:39:54.389 - 00:40:11.510

that Saint Luke's might do or the city or the Bruce Watkins Center? I think it would be I for all the things that happened in that neighborhood, I think it would be good if they had a plaque or something in front of the church just talking

00:40:11.510 - 00:40:24.570

about what went on in that neighborhood. You know, the monarchs, uh, if you go down the hill from where the church is and uh they've got this big open field that used to be a baseball field, they used to come there and do exhibition games. You

00:40:24.570 - 00:40:36.250

know, uh, and my mother told me about this, that's why they used to call it the uh the uh the ball diamond and I wonder why I'd always call. I mean we never played ball down there, but that's what used to happen before. It's a magazine

00:40:36.250 - 00:40:50.239

company that's got all that now as you go up in the Westport and I just think people should know about it because it's just, I mean take for example myself at the age of 13, uh I wasn't Catholic but I played on a team that uh

00:40:50.239 - 00:41:02.959

the Kelly's that owned Kelly's bar up there, the two boys, Pat and Mike, we all played on the same baseball team and we almost won the Catholic League, but I had an arm that, you know, I could throw almost a whole city block throw a baseball

00:41:02.959 - 00:41:15.300

about that far so, you know, I mean we all got along, you know, and and I think that something ought to be there to to show. that you know, we talk about harmony and we talk about all the things that are going on that aren't right,

00:41:15.550 - 00:41:28.719

you know, and some that are right. I mean there was a neighborhood to where things went right. I mean we, you know, like I said we we might have had our little our little spats but you couldn't come from out of Westport. You couldn't come from

00:41:28.719 - 00:41:41.699

Westport and someone else come into Westport and say, hey, I'm gonna jump on you. Because we all stuck together. So you know, yeah, I think a plaque in front of the only thing that's that's standing right now is is the uh the church because everything else

00:41:41.699 - 00:41:54.580

is is no longer around and we're looking at in October, the church will be celebrating its 137th year that it's been around. So I I think it would be good when you look at all the things that's happened in all the years in the history that

00:41:54.625 - 00:42:08.264

That's been there. I mean, I'm I'm like a 3rd generation of that was there because my grandfather was a deacon in the same church that I'm a deacon at for 40 some years. My grandmother was there for years, my mother was there for years. I mean,

00:42:08.465 - 00:42:23.979

you know, my aunt who's 91 talks about the the church being the first church she ever went to uh when she married my uncle, you know, and uh Were you uh were you married in the church? Uh, I wasn't married in Saint James, uh, matter of

00:42:23.979 - 00:42:42.010

fact, I was married, uh, this last time in New York City and the time before that I was married in, uh, downtown Kansas City at the justice of the Peace. Uh, anything else you'd like to share with us, because, especially, uh, for, uh, the hundreds of

00:42:42.010 - 00:42:55.739

people that we hope that are going to see this, uh, uh, documentary. You know, I and and and I'll say this and uh you know, maybe some people might agree with it and some people might not agree with it, but you know I I I think

00:42:55.739 - 00:43:10.610

one of the things that that uh I would like to leave is the fact that this area um stayed when a lot of areas left, you know, I, I look around and I see parking lots where there used to be homes at and there's a lot

00:43:10.610 - 00:43:22.850

of good memories but you know, the only thing that's constant is change and I see a hospital like Saint Luke's that continues to grow and continue to expand and the one thing that I have to look at when I look at that, I look at the

00:43:22.850 - 00:43:36.860

fact that they have Probably one of the best, uh, you know, heart, uh, research, uh, you know, foundation in the country. I mean, the things they do to save lives, you know, now the, the thing that I would look at is, yeah, the hospital is getting

00:43:36.860 - 00:43:50.110

larger and it's expanding, but you know what, they're saving lives and I think that's really important. Uh, uh, there was a lot of people in that neighborhood that They gave a lot of life. I mean, you know, no, there's no longer homes and stuff there, but

00:43:50.110 - 00:44:03.310

there's a lot of areas where there used to be a lot of homes and they're no longer homes. I live exactly 2 miles from where I grew up at. I live in the Brookside area and I can, I'm a runner. I, I run marathons and everything

00:44:03.310 - 00:44:16.800

else. I can run down to where I grew up at. And I think that's pretty That says something. So, you know, um, again, I think it should be remembered. I think if you don't remember your past, you don't know, you can't know where you're going. You

00:44:16.800 - 00:44:26.270

know, and there were so many things that were so important I think that happened there. uh, you know, I've seen people that have come up to me on the street, uh, a little Italian guy came up to me and said, you don't even know me but

00:44:26.270 - 00:44:36.600

my name is Angelo and he used to come over to my house and, uh, and we used to play when we were kids and I said, you're the one who used to swallow the pennies all the time. He said, yeah, yeah. And and we had lunch,

00:44:36.639 - 00:44:57.929

you know, and and I mean I wouldn't have known him from a man in the moon because I hadn't seen him since we were in the 3rd grade. Um, wonderful stories. Uh, And when you, um, talk about, um, you know, what Saint Luke's is doing, and

00:44:57.929 - 00:45:20.020

you mentioned the number of things that, uh, You've done in your own life, uh, what would be one of the hopes and dreams of, uh, of, um, the descendants of Westport, uh, for the future? I would think probably to continue being productive, uh, continue to be

00:45:20.020 - 00:45:33.550

able to grow, continue to be able to learn and uh be a vital part of the city. Um, that's the thing, the same things that that were taught to me as far as you better learn everything because you don't know when you're gonna need it. I

00:45:33.550 - 00:45:45.850

say that to my grandchildren. You know, I never tell them what they can't do. I've always tell them what they can do and it's the same thing when I, when I teach a class. I, I let students know what they can do, not, not what you

00:45:45.850 - 00:46:02.889

can't do, you know, I don't believe in the word can't. Uh, I'm history. Love it. And if you don't know where you came from, as you mentioned, you may not know where you're going. What is important about keeping a picture, uh, keeping in touch with your

00:46:02.889 - 00:46:20.810

history, pictures, uh, scrapbooks, artifacts, Bibles? How is that important to new generations? It it lets them have a glimpse of what things were like. I I I think the biggest problem that I see now is the kids, they don't understand that there was a time you

00:46:20.810 - 00:46:33.330

couldn't go to a lot of schools. You know, you had, you had uh uh times where there was just certain places you could go. My mother lived at 4200 Washington and she had to go all the way to Lincoln. That meant that she could have she

00:46:33.330 - 00:46:46.016

was close to Passale, she was close to Westport, you know, and she had to walk by all that to go all the way over. to Lincoln and they don't understand that they came on all the shoulders of all the people that have come from before and

00:46:46.016 - 00:46:58.976

I and I I think it's just important that the youth kind of get an idea of if you look at something like the history and I talked to my kids about my my grandkids and I've talked to my kids about the history, you know, I mean

00:46:58.976 - 00:47:11.521

what happened when uh you know, my grandfather, uh, the reason he came to Kansas City, you know, he came to Kansas. Because he wanted to sell his house and the people that were trying to buy his house didn't want to give him the amount of money

00:47:11.521 - 00:47:25.191

that he thought that he should have got. So, uh, some people came and said, you know, South you better get on the uh the the train and get out of town however you can cause these white folks are coming down, they're gonna kill you tonight. We

00:47:25.191 - 00:47:37.330

already heard. So he got on a freight train and took his wife and kids in the middle of the night and ended up in Armadale, Kansas. Because he had to leave because he couldn't sit around and negotiate the fact that, you know, I'm not going to

00:47:37.330 - 00:47:47.620

let my house go at this price and we ought to work on that now. See, people don't understand how things used to be because they haven't had to deal with a fairy land where they could only go once a year. They go to worlds of fun

00:47:47.620 - 00:47:56.229

all they want to. They sit at any restaurant they want to. Well, Mr. Turner, I wanna thank you. Oh, it's my pleasure.