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Uh, this is Horace Peterson, executive director of the Black Archives of Mid America. Today is August 31st, 1976. I'm interviewing Mr. Philip B. Curls, uh, state representative, 26th district 28th district, excuse me. Uh, good morning, Mr. Karls. First of all, uh, Mr. Curls, what is your

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complete name? Philip B. And I believe you said that you did not know what the B stands for. OK, uh, when were you born? April 2nd, 1942, where Kansas City, Missouri. What hospital? I really don't know, atenolol. And your parents' name? Velma Edith curls and Fred

00:00:47.450 - 00:01:04.370

A curls. OK. Um, do you know the address, uh, can, can you expand on what the address was that your parents were residing at at the time of your birth? It was on 10th and Truce in one of the apartment buildings that has now been torn

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down by Urban Renewal. Um, do you have any brothers or sisters older than yourself? I have, uh, one brother older than myself, Michael Curls, uh, Garland Michael Curl. Who was living. I have one sister, Millicent Curls, who passed in 1970. Uh, That's where were your mother

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and father from? Well, let's first of all, I'll start with your father. What? No, not at this time. What was your father from? He was from No White, Oklahoma. Do you remember the circumstances why he came to Kansas City? Accompanied his mother when she moved here.

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No, I don't recall. Why she came, I imagine for. Economic opportunity, so she found. With, with, with his mother? Um-hum. OK. And, uh, what about your, your mother? She was from Chanute, Kansas. No particular reason why she came here, or did he meet her and she

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knew? I really don't know. What, what the Where they met or or how they happened to have migrate to Kansas City. What portion of your life was spent at that particular address? No, no, no, I, I imagine my early years, uh, Maybe at age one, possibly

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at age two. What was your first, uh, school that you attended in Kansas City? Phillips on 24th. What what grades did you attend? From kindergarten to the 4th grade. Uh, do you remember, uh, any of your teachers? Ms. Lewis, Imogene Lewis. Imogene bird, whatever her name,

00:03:12.240 - 00:03:33.630

Now with the Kansas City. School district has a reading consultant of some sort. That's really the only teacher I recall from my grade school. What type of an individual, um, uh, has it been, um, I have people said you were at that particular age, but. What

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type of individual was that age? Let's say 4, 4th grade, 5th grade in that, in that particular area. Were you, um, a studious individual? Did you run with the fellows or what, what, what, what type of a person was Philip? Well, at age, At, at the

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4th grade, I transferred schools. Now, prior to that, During, during my time in uh when the Phillips, I, I would imagine it was. Not, not that it was very studious, but, uh, not one of running along with the fellow. Sort of shad and with drunk. Um

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scared of the girls, all that type of, Well, you did have 22 older brothers and sisters at that time, that particular time, more or less lead you to didn't you? OK, uh, what school did you go to when you left Saint Monica Catholic. 16th and Lydia.

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17th. Were you baptized Catholic? No. Were you ever baptized Catholic? Yes. You were, uh, were your family a Catholic family? Oh, the children. Um, um. Why do you think that that that your parents withdrew you from public school and put you into uh into into a

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Catholic school situation? At that time, I really don't know. Uh, we started attending a Catholic church. See, after I moved from 10th and Forest, uh, I then resided at 2103 25th. Which is now the present location of the Martin Luther King Hospital. But, uh, there was

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across the street from my address, so within that, residential complex called Brooklyn Center or Garfield Circle. Holy Spirit Catholic Church. Which, uh, Who are providing social services, And other activities for young people and because of our association with the church, we began to go to a

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Catholic school. Which was Saint Monica. Catholic school, um, 17 Lydia. Do you remember the principal's name at that time? Of that school? Um-hum. No. What about it when the films? You don't remember. Odell Thurman. Doctor Thurman was, was the principal was the principal of W. OK,

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um, What grades did you attend at, at the Catholic school? 4th through 8th. All right, then what happened? You mean where did I go to school after that? Yeah. Where'd you go after that? De La Salle. OK. Was this the time that, during the time that

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the De La Salle was the military type school? Right. Uh, what type of, uh, what, what type of, uh, move. Of an attitude did that give you going to do this that was a very uh prestigious school at that particular time in Kansas City to go

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to in fact. What type of an attitude did he give me? Well, it didn't really give me any particular attitude or airs of, uh, no, cause, uh, I knew really that it was quite a strain to even go there. uh, Only from a combined scholarship. Neither

00:07:13.899 - 00:07:31.000

of which was scholastic basically because I was a poor boy or that our family was poor, that, uh, I went there, so it wasn't. At least I don't think that there were any particular areas, could have been. Did you, did you, um, Did it help form

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any, any types of discipline for you? Oh, definitely. You think so? I do. Did you, uh, uh, did you participate in any sports to do that? Uh, I played freshman. Football and basketball, but I got a job right after that. At age 14. What did you

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think about going to a, um, They all men's school or all male school at that particular time. What, what did I think then or what did I think now? What did you think then? That at the time. It really, I, I thought it was satisfactory. I

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didn't see really the need to go to school in a coed environment. Uh, then, then you did graduate from De La Salle. Uh, were you at that, at that particular time you were a Catholic then, right? You had become a Catholic, um. Did you see the

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necessity of that type of a, of an environment at that time? Um. As an offshoot of the Catholic Church, more or less to uh strengthen that type of discipline that was required of a Catholic. Uh, I saw it as helpful. What type of a student were

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you there? Average. Average student, so that means that, uh, an average student in De La Salle is a B student. Oh, I, I really, I really don't know. I mean, uh. I doubt if I'd have done any better had I been in a coed, so it's

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difficult to really say. That simply by being a C at De La Salle, I would have been a B at Lincoln. Uh, you know, different environment would have brought about a different result. Uh, were you college bound at that time? Was that college family? Were you

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intending to go to college to go to college? I believe so, yeah. Had always thought in terms of that, right? You had, uh, did you immediately, uh, after De La Salle go to college? Well, first of all, what year from De La Salle did you graduate?

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1960. 60. All right. And, and did you immediately go into college from there? Yes, I did. Where? Rutgers College. OK, you're still staying within the Catholic, uh, organization, more or less as far as your education is concerned, right? Um, Catholic boy. Yeah Um, What type of

00:10:12.890 - 00:10:34.320

association did you make at, at, at, at, at uh at Rockers? You mean as far as friends? Yes, as friends, uh, uh, the faculty and such at, at, at, at. Really did not participate much at all in the structure of rock records as far as uh

00:10:34.320 - 00:10:55.539

student government really even is. Far as very much inner, Interst activities other than to play chess. Um. Oh, you had begun to play chess even at this particular point? That is when I started. Um, uh, your father, um, has been, um, in the real estate business

00:10:55.539 - 00:11:12.539

for a number of years. Had he, was he at that time in real estate at the time of you entering into Rockers? He was, uh, had you begun to, uh, to work, uh, in real estate at all at that time? Uh, had your father entered into

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the, uh, uh, at all into, uh, working with, with In the political, uh, arena as of yet? Uh, yes, yes. Had you become orientated as to what the system was about at that particular time? As to the political system. As to what the political system is.

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No, not in, in 1960. Um-hum. No, not really, not really. Uh Mm What, um, of what of of what political affiliation was he? You mean Republican or Democrat? He was in fact. Uh, had you met Mr. uh Leon Mercer Jordan at that time? No. You hadn't

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you become an affiliate of the Freedom Incorporated organization at that time? I don't even know if it was. That active at that time, I think. The first political election I can recall. For which We or I. Actively participated was in 1961, uh. It was 63. I

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know I recall that. That was the year that, We had city council elections. But in 1961. Was a year that freedom really. Began, I, I do recall the race. Because I was very familiar with Jay McKinley Neal. Who was the state representative that Leon Jordan defeated.

00:13:03.109 - 00:13:29.080

Because he owned the store at 25th and Brooklyn. The 2449 Brooklyn. 48 And we live one block from his store. So I'm familiar with politics based on my association with Mr. Neil. Which was only as a worker, not as a political worker, but as a, Work

00:13:29.080 - 00:13:51.289

behind the fountain. You work for Mr. Neil. Alright then you did not participate uh in politics at Rockhurst at all as a um let's say a student student body or anything of that nature. What was your major at Rockhurst? Accounting. OK, uh. So you're saying that

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you did not actively get involved until what, 1962, right? Or your family didn't get involved in politics. Or, or just the political mechanism in 1961. As a member of the NAACP Young Adult Council. We went to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania for an NAACP, And the politics that occurred

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there is something that intrigues. You, you, you had the total political system right there before you in a Sort of in a capsule where they were trying to. Get one where the convention was going to be the next year too, some type of a rule change.

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How long have you been a member of the NAACP? What were some of the other organizations that you participated in as a, as a um as a youth? What was that a young Catholic, young, young Catholic Y YC? No, I never participated in that. You didn't

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do that. Did you, did you participate in any sports at Rockhurst? No. You did not. All right. What, what year did you graduate from your, from Rockford? 65. Uh, all right. Um, What your uh Alright, you graduated in 1965 from Rockhurst College in in accounting, right?

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Alright, uh, had you participated as an office holder of any kind with Freedom Incorporated organization at that particular In 1965, 1965, well, yes, I was an office holder in, in Young Freedom. Which we formed in 1960. 3, 1963, 1960, 1963. And what was that position? Uh,

00:16:01.219 - 00:16:23.179

at least treasurer might have been chairman of the board. I, I don't recall. What, what size of organization was the Young Freedom Organization. Oh, I'd say it was 30 or 40. 40 or 50. Initially, uh, what was the impact of Leon on you? What was the

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impact? While you were a student, let's say at Rockers, and the organization was really being formed. Well, he, he was a man who would take the time, With you, which. You know, you could go in any time in the green duck, and he would be sitting

00:16:44.890 - 00:17:14.339

in his chair overlooking his business, but he would always stop, And take the time to talk to you. You know, try to, uh, They encourage you to participate. He would Leon Jordan really was by far the Most influential politician I would say in, in In my

00:17:14.339 - 00:17:39.099

uh political career, You know, that we really, as, uh, The young politicians ought to try to emulate him in as much as, Regardless of how busy he was, he would always take the time to work with you and. He was so shrewd that you would always

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think that he was entrusting you with some secret or, or entrusting you with some information that was not necessarily available to the public. He would just leave you with the feeling that you were a confident. You know, he might, uh, tell you really nothing, but it

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just left you with the impression. That, uh, you were someone that he had taken into his company. Uh, well, do you feel that, um, What attributes do you think were gained by you through knowing, uh, uh, Mr. Jordan, um, I'm talking about in the political arena

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with all the, the stigmas attached to politics at this particular time, you know, this is, uh, immediately after the Watergate thing, uh, hold on, hold on, hold on. Watergate was in 1972, right? I'm talking about now. I'm talking about, uh, the stigmas that are attached to

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poli to politicians as such, um, do you, uh, what type of an individual was he in that regard is what I'm asking. Well, you know, you always, you you you politics is looked upon now as being a very sneaky and shady business. Well, politics, uh, Politics

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has always been a sneaky and shady business and always will be, as far as I can see. You know, it just. But is that, does that, does that necessarily have to be the rule? That humans are engaged in politics, I'd say yeah, really. You know, what'll

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happen, you'll go through cycles. Of who will be sneaky and shady. But it'll always be a sneaky shady business. Are there ethics? Ethics and politics. Politicians make strange bedfellows. You know, in other words, uh, It, it is a game, and I don't really say it's a

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game, but, uh, It's just like business. The only difference between politics and any other Business, profession or a walk of life is that, All things that we do are done in, in an, in an open forum. You know, That's why it is, it is viewed as

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a shady business. Of course, it is the business of the people. When really most other things are the business of the people eventually too because uh it eventually gets to the consumer. I mean, if, if. If everyone had an open view on, say, the oil industry

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as they do on Say the, uh, politicians. We wouldn't be, you know, politicians wouldn't be really, Looked upon as any sneakier or any uh conniving than, you know, any, any other profession or any other type of a business venture. But the press seems very and, and

00:21:08.050 - 00:21:23.500

that's just part of our system where the press is open to criticize politicians. I mean that that is one of the checks and balances, you know, if it weren't sneaky and shrewd or or if it didn't have some fallacies to it you would. You would have

00:21:23.500 - 00:21:52.709

the, uh, Well, I mean, it, it's just composed of people and that truly is a frailty of human nature. Uh, what was the first office that you, uh, You, you saw Political elected office. When did you when did you first run for that office? 1972. 1972.

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All right, uh, during the period of 1965, let's say when you graduated from high school to 1970, uh, what was your involvement in the Freedom Incorporated organization? Well, in 1967. I was the assistant circuit clerk. Under Bruce Watkins in Jackson County, which brings about another question.

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What was the impact of Bruce? Um, a young man born with a golden, well, with a golden spoon in his mouth, uh, uh, uh, one of the leaders. Well, well, that's, well, is that a fallacy? Well, to my understanding is, as far as being born with

00:22:31.520 - 00:22:55.520

the golden spoon, I mean, uh, he has not always been wealthy. They have not always been Watkins brothers. But you know, from all times that I've known he's been Watkins brothers. But now, what is the impact of Bruce? The impact of Bruce. As compared to the

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impact of Jordan. Jordan was a shrewd man. Jardin would, Would seem to give more thought to the actions that he might take, and his actions would be. Uh, would just be true to Bruce is, is, is more open. He's more defined. They were a perfect combination

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and that Bruce would be the vocal critic of problems that existed and Jordan would be the one to whom they would try to seek to resolve the problem. He would help form the solution. Well, Bruce would only articulate the problem. Now, mix Harold Holiday Senior in

00:23:39.589 - 00:24:15.959

there. Harold Holliday senior again is a, a very vocal critic, a very articulate statesman. He possibly. He, he is truly viewed strictly as a statesman, one who, who, uh, extremely honest, probably as honest a politician as I know. Very Very knowledgeable. And an extremely good debater.

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He does not have the. Quality of shrewdness. As does Leon. He, he and Bruce are more. More similar course, Bruce is even more outspoken on more issues than say Holiday, at least during this particular time. Uh, comparing those attributes with, with today's leadership, how would you,

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uh, compare them? With um uh the the present leadership of Freedom Incorporated. Charles and Doc. And yourself. We just don't measure up. I mean, um. To me, Well, let, let's go with Doc. OK. Now, Doc is an extremely Doc, who's Doc? Harold Holliday Junior, who's president,

00:25:16.650 - 00:25:53.869

president of Freedom Incorporated. He is an extremely articulate debater. He is, uh, More Politically, Doc is probably a, a, a, a combination of all three of the gentlemen that we've previously spoken about, uh. Uh, the, uh, And Harold Sing. Not reaching anywhere near the limit of

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perfection that those three men have. Have, uh. Had a pained. Had a pained in that particular, but he has somewhat of all three, something that I guess time and age would develop. Um, Charles He, he seems more along the line of You know, Leon, as far

00:26:22.780 - 00:26:52.829

as not really an outspoken person, but one who gives more thought. To what particular program, You know, trying to put things together, trying to Do develop or work for things for the community from a From a silent. Participating way more so than a vocal outspoken critic.

00:26:55.089 - 00:27:25.469

Myself, really, I, I would have to say that, uh, Have not really demonstrated much as it relates to a leadership position. You know, as far as taking an outspoken stand on Um, not very many issues at all. Really feel that My best. Uh, Contribution. Be more

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so. Not as an organizer, but as a conciliatory, someone who will Attempt to bring various positions into focus together, right. Uh, do you think or do you feel that, uh, freedom has lost any, any, any of its impact with the, uh, let's say, uh, in, in

00:27:52.349 - 00:28:12.390

this transitional period that it's going through? I wouldn't say that it was the transitional period that has affected its impact. It's just like anything else. That when freedom had its greatest participation was during the time that we as a people had our greatest problems, or at

00:28:12.390 - 00:28:36.760

least what we thought to be our greatest problems. That was during the times of voter. When, when, uh, We had fair housing when we had uh public accommodation. These were the two springboards for the maximum participation of the Freedom Inc. but And after those two had

00:28:36.760 - 00:29:04.640

been accomplished, Then the community participation has slackened. Why, what, what, why, why, why has community participation slackened? Because the interest in the issues has slackened. You see, now after public accommodation and after fair housing, which Any idealist can attach to those particular ideas and be ready

00:29:04.640 - 00:29:24.540

to participate and rally around that cry. But after those two issues had been dealt with, Then you get down to the nuts and bolts of candidates, and there is quite a bit about politics which to an idealist is unglamorous because you have to make compromises. There,

00:29:25.270 - 00:29:45.780

there are certain things about political reality that, uh, many people. You know, have problems dealing with accepting a candidate based not only on his 100% merit but based upon how he will contribute to you achieving your end. Are are you telling me that between the time

00:29:45.780 - 00:30:05.150

of 1970, it's 1965 and 1970 that Uh, since we dealt with the, uh, issues of fair housing and public accommodations, that there were, there are no other relevant issues within the black community that freedom can attach itself to? No, I didn't say that there were no

00:30:05.150 - 00:30:30.209

other relevant issues. I always said there were no relevant issues that, Is in the country. To, to the issues in the country. I mean, um. High unemployment, you know, this is a private crime. These things should have should have attracted more attention than should either of

00:30:30.209 - 00:30:52.689

the other two issues fair housing. You can go live with white folks. Public accommodation, you know, you can go eat where you like, uh, really there I, I, I personally would like to have to have seen those those. Two things possibly delayed themselves. Well, like Malcolm

00:30:52.689 - 00:31:09.689

X, a, uh, public accommodation where you can sit on the stool next to white folks, right, and they, I mean, you know, we, we should have stayed bottled up a little longer. You think so? I do. You see, I mean, uh, our political strength has been

00:31:09.689 - 00:31:37.900

diluted by our dispersal, wide area dispersal. I mean, you know, we talk about, uh. Reintegration with these housing complexes because we were building them all in the black neighborhood and then there was a hood requirement that before any housing complexes were built, you know, they had

00:31:37.900 - 00:32:01.660

to meet the wide area or or the dispersal requirement that is they had to try to build them out someplace out of the. Impacted area, but uh you know if we can be distributed by some scheme across this total. American system, then our total strength is

00:32:01.660 - 00:32:25.939

completely diluted within the vast majority. That we would be mixed with, I mean, how important or what impact can the blacks out in Grandview have on the political system in Grandview? Mhm. You know, we lose 1000 here, 1000 in North Kansas. Well, reapportionment and such, right?

00:32:25.949 - 00:32:46.290

I, uh, do you think that that would work as a, uh, as a, um, um, as a benefit to the black people in the end? What do you mean reapportionment? Uh, maybe I'm using the wrong word, um. The way, the way the, the The districts are

00:32:46.300 - 00:33:08.270

are aligned right now within the city, the various, uh, uh, wards and such, uh, uh, uh, when they, when they go through their reapportionment patterns of, of determining these wards and such, uh, uh, how will they in fact, uh, uh, work to our benefit as black

00:33:08.270 - 00:33:26.300

people. No way that I see other than possibly to reapportion of those two Senate districts and draw one of those such that a black person can uh You know, the senator. Speaking of the Senate districts, why do we not have a black senator at this time?

00:33:29.810 - 00:33:52.040

Well, we had a candidate that ran in this past August 3rd election 1976 who was defeated by 200 votes. Why do we not have a black candidate at this time is because there is apathy within our community. People do not come out and vote. The votes

00:33:52.040 - 00:34:19.858

were there. We didn't, I think, I think that if you don't have 3 votes that's the opponent. Hm. Uh, why is there, uh, why is there a split within the black community? Uh, in, in the Democratic Party, why, why, why do we allow ourselves to have

00:34:19.858 - 00:34:48.219

Holiday and Ross running for the same office? What do you mean when you say allow ourselves? Well, we are Democrats. Why was there two black Democrats seeking the same office? How do we allow ourselves to do that? Well, how could you have controlled? There is only

00:34:48.219 - 00:35:07.810

one Democratic Party in Kansas. Well, there's supposedly only one Democratic primary. Democratic primary, see, how can you, I mean, I understand idealistically what you're saying, the community should have been together such that it would have thrown its total support behind one black candidate for the benefit

00:35:07.810 - 00:35:26.169

of black folks having that candidate. But What can you do to stop? I mean, is it the first one who files is the first one who who should be given consideration? I mean, is, is the numerical order in which a person files the most important criteria

00:35:26.169 - 00:35:48.090

that you should use to judge who will run? I say that because Henry Ross filed first for the Senate, and there has been some. Concern expressed to me that, you know, Freedom Incorporated was the one who muddied the water because Henry Ross had already filed. So

00:35:48.090 - 00:36:04.500

now is being first in line mean that you're the best qualified for that particular office? I don't think so. I mean, Henry Ross got a total of 1900 votes. Harold Holiday got a total of 52. I don't really think that there's any question in my mind

00:36:04.929 - 00:36:26.540

as to which particular candidate was the most qualified, but there had been some expression on the part of people that Harold Holliday should not have gotten into the race. And that he is the one who had actually uh jeopardized the black community getting uh. You know,

00:36:26.659 - 00:36:52.790

getting a black senator. I don't agree with that. So now. We don't agree as it relates to the qualification of the two candidates. They don't, they being the opposition, Henry Ross specifically, don't agree. That, uh, he should withdraw, so there you have it. I mean. I

00:36:52.790 - 00:37:14.399

think that Henry indicated in in later conversation that the only reason he was in there, and this is something that could be confirmed by. By Reverend either Hartsville or AL Johnson, I know that I was at a meeting in which AL Johnson speaking to the Baptist

00:37:14.399 - 00:37:38.790

Ministers Alliance, indicated that he had been advised that Henry at a meeting or In Mooney's had indicated that he realizes that he is not gonna win, but he's gonna stop that other *** from winning. Why, what's what's the, uh, strategicness of a black senator from Kansas

00:37:38.790 - 00:38:08.540

City, Missouri? Oh, it would have been just, uh, monumental and especially if we had gotten a black senator. With the qualifications of a Harold Holliday senior. Who had been a member of the Missouri House for 12 years. Who would have immediately upon going in have had

00:38:08.540 - 00:38:30.090

tremendous seniority. There is going to be a tremendous turnover in the Senate this year, and a lot of that turnover is going to exist in the majority party. So that you may have, there are a total of 34 senators. You may have 10 Republicans and 24

00:38:30.090 - 00:38:51.739

Democrats. In fact, there was something like 22 Democrats and 12 Republicans. So that if you had a turnover of 18 in the Democratic Party, although you have 10 Republicans who had a longer seniority. They would not have meant very much because you split it down and

00:38:51.739 - 00:39:08.479

those 22 are gonna control it such that a freshman senator this term would have been a powerful senator right from the start. Oh, let me ask, uh, this. You say you bring up seniority. Uh, would, would Harold Holiday's 12 years in the House of Representatives been

00:39:08.479 - 00:39:33.729

transferable to the Senate? No. Pardon, no, not as far as seniority was in the house, but he would have been coming into the Senate. This term with quite a few first-termers, you see, and just by personality and And, and, and, Personality and the fact that he

00:39:33.729 - 00:39:53.969

had been in the house for 12 years. You know, he was knowledgeable of all the people who made up the system. I mean, There had been a a a interaction between the Senate and the House to where they were aware of what his abilities were and

00:39:54.429 - 00:40:16.580

such working would have, he would have gone immediately as a chairman of a committee and possibly into the Senate leadership right from the start. It was a very tragic and unfortunate thing that uh we weren't able to get that black senator from Kansas City. He, uh,

00:40:17.139 - 00:40:37.239

he deserved to be the senator. I mean, he's by far more competent than the fellow who was elected. Uh, well, well, in, in, in, in comparison with Saint Louis politics and Kansas City politics, Saint Louis for years have had black senators. Uh, what do you attribute

00:40:37.239 - 00:41:10.310

that to? Population. Population. Saint Louis has a black population. That's 4 times as great as Kansas City. Saint Louis, St. Louis has a population of 40-45% black. Kansas City has one of 18. Mhm Yeah. I think 100 to 150,000 blacks in Kansas City. There's 400,000 in

00:41:10.310 - 00:41:34.939

Saint Louis, uh, backing up, uh, to 1965 again, uh, entering into real estate. What, what major um changes have you noted within the real estate laws other than uh the fair housing, uh, activities of the 1970s? From, from what point of view you mean as a

00:41:34.939 - 00:42:01.110

state representative or as as a realtor as a realtor, I guess that's the greatest. I, I primarily am a real estate appraiser. Of course, there, there's one other. Uh, change in real estate law. That is that a wife can buy a property of her own now

00:42:02.090 - 00:42:27.399

without. Of necessity a husband having to sign it. The new credit laws are are you had fair housing which dealt with uh. Uh, You know, a racial minority. Now you've got the credit laws that are dealing with a sexual minority as far as discrimination. In fair

00:42:27.399 - 00:42:47.219

housing, it addressed itself to the fact that blacks could not live in certain areas. The new credit laws addresses itself that women cannot for long periods of time without number one, the signature of a husband buy certain things. Now a man was able to buy without

00:42:47.219 - 00:43:08.600

a woman, but a woman was not able to buy without a man. Is that state or federal? That's federal. Have there been any uh state state provisions to that or anything of that nature? No. No, because, uh, once federal law goes in, that supersedes everything else.

00:43:08.879 - 00:43:30.229

Yeah. Now there, there have been some laws introduced which address itself to that. We haven't taken them up or passed them quite often if federal law acts. Then All we're doing is bringing state law into compliance. There's a saying that uh so goes the uh real

00:43:30.229 - 00:43:51.979

so goes real estate and the housing industry, so goes the economy. Do you feel that way? Uh, it seems to, uh, hold true. In other words, real estate. When, when you talk in terms of real estate, you're talking in terms of new construction. And you're talking

00:43:51.979 - 00:44:19.280

in terms of the construction industry. Which is a basic industry. You're talking in terms of the lumber, steel mills, concrete plants. And all the related industries that would feed from, The, uh, real estate industry that see real estate is a major industry because because that takes

00:44:19.280 - 00:44:43.419

into consideration construction and everything related to it, you know, the auto plants are a major industry you know that takes into consideration the steel mills and those type things. So that from those basic industries. They provide the income source for many of your service agencies such

00:44:43.419 - 00:45:06.560

as You know, stores, store is a service agent. It's a necessity, but it's a service agency. You have a tire plants. She has service stations here. Hardware store Which, which provides services to these so that if you don't have people making the basic income. From your

00:45:06.560 - 00:45:30.709

construction, then they in turn cannot feed to the service agencies which cannot feed to so yeah it it it's. No, OK. Um, all right, quickly back to politics, um, Uh, can you give me some type of, uh, of a, of an answer to what happened to

00:45:30.709 - 00:45:53.080

Richard Talber? In in in the freedom incorporated organization. Uh But I really don't know. I mean, uh, You know, I've heard it said that he was a man before his time. Richard Talper had a lot of good ideas. I don't think that you can say what

00:45:53.080 - 00:46:16.879

happened to Richard Talbot in Freedom Incorporated. As if to indicate that there was friction that existed between freedom and Richard. Because there was friction that existed between Richard. In the world as it related to the implementation of his ideas. And that same problem existed within freedom.

00:46:18.169 - 00:46:35.370

Because he saw the need for certain changes and to do certain things which leadership at that time did not see the need. And so there was the clash, but he saw the need to do things. In the community as a whole, and many of his ideas

00:46:35.370 - 00:47:02.000

were good, but You know ideas have to have some means of implementation. And the means of implementation have to be more thoroughly thought out than I saw Richard doing. He had tremendous ideas. But, uh, Do you, uh, feel that Freedom Incorporated can align themselves with Joanne

00:47:02.000 - 00:47:30.649

Collins for in her, in her congressional, uh, racist, I don't I don't. I mean, um. She's running against an incumbent who has been very responsive to the black community. I mean, we cannot. Simply promote candidates strictly and solely on the fact that they're black, especially in

00:47:30.649 - 00:47:48.629

a race in which they don't have a chance of winning. I don't really think Julianne has a chance to win it. I think that she is part of a, a, a larger scheme. To divide the black vote and try to swing some part of that to

00:47:48.629 - 00:48:09.800

the, to the Republican Party. I can appreciate the role that Joanne plays in the political system. And well, do I believe that she should do what she's doing. I just do not see us. Nor would I encourage anyone else to follow along with her, but you

00:48:09.800 - 00:48:28.159

need some people in all parts of the winner's camps. I mean, we don't, we as people don't need to lose when we lose. I mean, they had, there's got to be some Joanne Collins, some Sam Jackson, some Henry Ross. Oh yeah, there, there is, uh, you

00:48:28.159 - 00:48:48.159

know, I'd minimize Henry Ross's role even more than I do Joanne's, but, uh, they, they serve the same purpose to an extent. Everybody has some constituency, so they have some representation. They represent somebody. Uh, as a member of the House of Representatives for the state of

00:48:48.159 - 00:49:28.399

Missouri, how did, how did the Watergate incident affect you? Personally. And how did it affect your colleagues in the house? Which is now extremely um. Man, you, you really have to be a CPA just to file those forms. Just to really complete those forms. And you

00:49:28.399 - 00:49:54.929

know I, I think there has been an overreaction to Watergate, especially on the level in which we're dealing. Uh, where does Philip curls go from here politically to attempt to be a legislator to begin. To try to exert myself as far as leadership on the state

00:49:54.929 - 00:50:14.070

legislative level, I don't think in terms of, well, shortly I'm gonna go to here. I really think in terms of first trying to satisfactorily do the job at the level that I'm presently at. Mhm what committees are you on in the state? I'm presently on banks

00:50:14.070 - 00:50:38.659

and financial institutions, state institutions and property. And welfare, I hope to this coming term become a member of the appropriations Committee. Which is a very time consuming committee, but which is one that I want to devote my time to. Because we have not had a black

00:50:38.659 - 00:51:00.959

from Kansas City on the Appropriations Committee since 1970. Do you plan to chair the committee? No, I don't. Or do you, do you have that type of seniority where you could? There will be some third term chairman. But. I doubt really if I'll be one. There

00:51:00.959 - 00:51:24.459

will be very few 3rd term chairman. Chairmanships in Missouri House are based a lot on seniority. And there are some very qualified people there who are sharing some of these positions. I eventually intend on sharing a a a committee. But, uh, you know, it's all in

00:51:24.459 - 00:51:53.270

due time. Finally, um, what is your your your impression of uh Jimmy Carter versus uh uh Gerald Ford? Well, personally, I'm in favor of Carter. Because the, I've seen what the country. You know what direction we've had since we've had Ford in office. He has vetoed

00:51:53.689 - 00:52:18.560

some bills which I consider would have been very beneficial to my community. Ford is more business oriented in the type of uh. Legislation. That that he seems to promote or that he seems to be in favor of uh Carter seems to be a man more in

00:52:18.560 - 00:52:40.399

tune with the needs of the people. You know, I'm impressed, and although it might be a shallow impression, or, you know, might be a shallow issue, but that He has his, his children go to school with black kids, so that he has a firsthand knowledge. Of

00:52:40.800 - 00:53:01.629

what the educational problems or the educational benefits of uh integrated education. I mean, I It's difficult for me to give just a blanket endorsement of the man not knowing more about the man than I do, but the few things that I do know, you know, they

00:53:01.629 - 00:53:31.959

have impressed me versus Gerald Ford. Philip, uh, in looking at the state legislature, how many, uh, issues would you say the, the legislature confronts himself with annually? About 1000. Alright, uh, what, what priority, uh, let's say, does, does, uh, uh, integration or would social programs have,

00:53:32.340 - 00:53:54.040

uh, uh, in regards to that 1000? About 900. Well, wait, wait a minute now I'm getting at. I'm saying this in regards to our white people, are, are white legislatures preoccupied with integration. Preoccupied with it, you know, trying to correct it or is it a constant

00:53:54.040 - 00:54:25.530

thing or is that just one of the horns, one of the horns in their sides? Well, I mean, it isn't. for which they tried to address, I mean, you know, they don't, uh, it's not really impression that that is the question, you know. No. I don't

00:54:25.530 - 00:54:47.429

even think it reads at the state level it doesn't read. You know. If you had 10 issues, it'd be 9th, 8th. Prison reform being intent, which is a, which is an integrated question to a certain extent. But no, that, that doesn't uh monopolize their time nor

00:54:47.429 - 00:55:11.260

their thinking. But then still we feel that Jimmy Carter is going to suddenly, uh, rise as a champion to the uh social cause, more or less. Do you feel that way. I feel that he quite possibly will because that issue. You see, champion of social causes.

00:55:11.310 - 00:55:31.050

We're talking about unemployment, which is, you know, not just a white black question. See, that goes back to what we were saying earlier about black folks identifying with the larger problem. And realizing that they're just part of an overall problem and not a problem in itself.

00:55:31.550 - 00:55:49.870

See, when you talk about, uh, You see, we talked to him once and he talked in terms of crime. He talked in terms of education. And he pointed out that you can never deal with those specific issues as to how to address them and separate that

00:55:49.870 - 00:56:13.070

from from economics, that we have crime. Because we have a depressed economic condition for a certain group of people. And that we cannot expect a man to starve while we talk about, well, let's let's figure out why he's a criminal, you know. You understand why it's

00:56:13.070 - 00:56:36.250

criminal, but you keep trying to deal with, you know, building bigger jails or rehabilitation programs or, Or, uh, all type of social oriented programs when truly one of the major problems that is the feeder to all of these other problems is economics. If somebody's got some

00:56:36.250 - 00:56:57.459

money, they can afford to, uh, you know, feed their children or clothe their children when they're going to school, you know, and send their children to school every day. But if he doesn't have any money, then, you know, the child is irritated because he's hungry, or

00:56:57.459 - 00:57:19.090

he's ashamed because he's in an impoverished condition, and it distracts from his learning. His ability to learn because he is, his mind is occupied with other problems. But you give him these basic necessities, and that'll improve everything. It'll improve the school system. It'll improve the crime

00:57:19.090 - 00:57:35.064

problem. And you feel that Jimmy Carter is one of, uh, uh, uh. Well, he at least, you know, if, if nothing else, he has expressed to me that he at least, Recognizes is that there is a relationship between the economy and these other problems. Well, Nixon,

00:57:35.074 - 00:57:55.129

uh, uh, uh, I believe supplied to economic development within the black community than any other president in his era. Uh, how do you explain that? And that's, that's, that's, that's the economics. Well, We're talking about basic economics. I'm not talking, see, you're talking about black capitalism.

00:57:57.229 - 00:58:21.719

Which addresses itself really to a very minor segment of the black community. So you're talking about how he attempted to pay people In favor with him. And I'm talking about how do you get a majority of the unemployed people employed. See, you know, we we're not

00:58:21.719 - 00:58:46.909

talking about, you know, I don't want to distract from nor discourage black capitalism, but that of itself is not going to solve the problem. And when you have tokenism black capitalism, as I think that has been God has been fostered heretofore, you know, he's not really

00:58:46.909 - 00:59:07.229

trying to address the problem. He's just trying to provide a means to compensate those who have supported him. That's politics though, isn't it? Yeah, that's definitely politics, but so I'm saying that I don't see Nixon's position as one trying to correct the problem. Do you believe

00:59:07.229 - 00:59:28.919

that he'll be back politically? You never can tell about that, man. I mean, I think that, uh, You know, he might be there now. Who knows? I mean, he picked the president. So he had to have something in mind when he picked him. Were you surprised,

00:59:29.020 - 00:59:54.409

uh, to the, uh, uh, were you surprised at all the Reagan defeat here in Kansas City? No, I really wasn't surprised. I was surprised that he showed as well as he did. Yeah, I'm surprised at that, but, uh, you know, Doctor O'Toole went for Reagan, you

00:59:54.409 - 01:00:10.350

know, I don't know if you know who Doctor O'Toole is. I don't really know other than to tell you she's a black. lady from uh New York who gave a seconding speech for Reagan at the convention. Extremely bright lady boy and she was sharp. That lady

01:00:10.350 - 01:00:32.500

is really sharp. She was on The Tomorrow Show. Once before the convention because she was an unconvention. Then, uh, which direction do you think we're gonna be going? Black people anyway. Look like we're in a, in a void right now. There's no real issue, uh, freedom

01:00:32.500 - 01:00:49.409

lost two very important races, uh, um, uh, in the last election, which, which way are we gonna go? What do you mean there's no real issue? What is the Employment. Unemployment. But that's a national issue. I'm talking about as far as the community is concerned. Well,

01:00:49.489 - 01:01:07.939

but that's a community issue too. Unemployment, do you think housing, do you think that freedom is, do you think that freedom is gonna be able to maintain its strength within the community just being a, a, a, a, a open, uh, uh, uh, uncommitted organization that just

01:01:07.939 - 01:01:28.090

deals with just all the issues or what? Well, when you say it's open uncommitted, what do you mean by that? I mean that that that we're not dealing with, um, any specific black issue. You know, we're dealing with the entire uh uh uh agenda of issues,

01:01:28.209 - 01:01:46.370

let's say, you know, do you think that that the organization will be able to maintain itself? Well, really, if that's what freedom is doing, and, and I would tend to agree, then I would say yes, because that's what the people are gonna have to do. We're

01:01:46.370 - 01:02:04.899

going to have to understand. That, that, you know, we will blend into the system, so we must address ourselves to the problems of the system. Now maybe you're talking in terms of, you know, remaining outside the system, but that is not really what Freedom Inc. is

01:02:04.899 - 01:02:27.760

all about. I mean, we would not have pursued elected officers, which is, you know, recognizing the system and trying to work within the system. So the issues that we must address ourselves to are those issues which You know, we understand to affect people, all people, and

01:02:27.760 - 01:02:47.760

not not only black people, but affect black people the most. All right, what I'm getting at is this, uh, uh, doing what, what what percentage of the black community or the black vote did freedom get out during a public competitions, would you say? Probably 50%. All

01:02:47.760 - 01:03:08.870

right, we got 50% more than we had had previously voting. Are you saying? Oh, well, no, I, I, you know, don't have that statistics before me now. Public accommodation was the zenith. What's the height as far as registration and also as far as voter participation? All

01:03:08.870 - 01:03:34.669

right, now compare that with the with the voter registration and the voter voter turnout we had in the last election, uh, uh, although it was that drive comparable? No. We, we had, I'll give you an, you know, in 1974, we had an average voter voter participation

01:03:34.669 - 01:03:59.520

or voting on that day of about 22%. In the black community. 22% of the registered voters or 22% of the voters voted freedom. No, 22% of the registered voters voted voted. OK. Now that's on average with some going as low as 14%. The sub is high.

01:04:01.179 - 01:04:32.479

It was 25-30, but it was right at the 22% range. Now in this previous election 1976. We had several precincts that voted in the 45%, which was a tremendous improvement. Now, You know, the fact that we had a senatorial candidate running contributed to that. I think

01:04:32.479 - 01:04:51.219

the fact that uh we worked harder contributed to that. The fact that the opponents worked harder contributed to that. The fact that there were opponents contributed to that. But now, that does not really answer your question, which you're trying to point out that during the time

01:04:51.219 - 01:05:12.860

of public accommodation, which could have been a rallying cry for our community. We had tremendous participation. Um-hum. And why don't we have it now? I really don't know. was because of not having this, uh, uh, uh, a, a, a pertinent issue or issue of the same

01:05:12.860 - 01:05:33.969

magnitude as public accommodation, but what can we do within the community that there is no issue. That has the magnitude and the impact of unemployment. But why haven't we been able to, to, to, to, uh, emphasize that issue more that employment is the key issue right

01:05:33.969 - 01:05:54.570

now. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, you know, I searched for the answer myself. I mean, why? Employment would have, would have seemed to me would have overridden, uh, uh, public accommodations, would have gone over fair housing because employment would have cleaned up all this other

01:05:54.570 - 01:06:13.899

stuff. Well, you see, those were emotional issues. Is a, We just seem to react more to emotional issues. All right, fair housing. I still can't live on in certain parts of the city, you know, if I wanted to or not, if you were the realtor selling

01:06:13.899 - 01:06:32.030

me the house, uh, on state line, more than likely I would still would not be able to be able to buy that house, uh, regardless of the price of that particular facility. Uh, uh, wasn't it, uh, uh, well, I remember as a, as a lad. Uh,

01:06:32.050 - 01:06:49.939

Hector Lopez buying a house on state line before the, before the, uh, uh, the public public housing thing, and they, they ran him out, right? The social pressures, the social attitudes have not changed in the last 10 years, uh, uh, regardless of Fair Housing Act, right?

01:06:50.330 - 01:07:09.979

So we're still in the same position even though we have legislation, right now the social attitudes have changed a great deal. I mean, you have a lot greater acceptance, of course, you know, you cannot legislate that your neighbor will talk to you. Mhm. You know, you,

01:07:10.060 - 01:07:30.100

you just can't legislate that. But there have been definite changes, no, no doubt about it, you see, I mean, uh, looking back over the years, uh, how effective was Henry Ross in the state in, in the House of Representatives to you? I really do not know

01:07:30.179 - 01:07:59.550

anything about Henry's legislative career to Knowledgeably coming. How, how effective was Leon Jordan? His was He has probably been more effective at the state level than any other black man, uh. It was just that he had an overpowering personality. And he thought big. I mean, You

01:07:59.550 - 01:08:25.350

know, there are many who credit Tom Everton as US senator. To, uh, Leon Jordan. Because Leon, you know, thought in terms of things at that level. All right, uh, finally, uh, what legislations, uh, uh, At state level does Philip Curls now have his name attached to?

01:08:25.810 - 01:08:48.589

The primary legislation is it deals with housing. It deals with expanding the authority of the Missouri State Housing Commission to allow them to make. Loans and grants. To property owners in this particular area. Who are. What is this area now? What is this area? Well, I,

01:08:48.709 - 01:09:15.548

I always think of this area, specifically my district, but it would be even larger than the district. And encompassed primarily the redlined areas of the inner city. Redline meaning that, uh, Private mortgage money is not available for either home purchase or home repair. Within a large

01:09:15.548 - 01:09:42.229

area of our metropolitan city and also in Saint Louis, and also in other Yeah, well, primarily Kansas City, Saint Louis. Um-hum. And then, That, that really is the primary legislation that I'm interested in. I'm also the prime sponsor on for welfare bills. Which They are important

01:09:42.229 - 01:10:05.819

too. They have a more limited impact in that they would primarily benefit those who are on welfare, or those who have a uh an appeal. You know, within the system. But, uh, It, it, it, it's those 4 in, in welfare and the 1 in housing. Now,

01:10:05.899 - 01:10:28.629

I quite possibly will be the prime sponsor of some bills to reform the penal system. I really don't know. Whether or not I'll take that on. But, I, I, I quite possibly will. OK, this, this concludes, uh, the first interview with, um, State Representative Philip Curls.

01:10:28.799 - 01:10:33.950

Um, thank you very much, Mr. Curls. Thank you, Mr. Peterson. See you in 5 years.