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With Scott of the Black Archives of Mid-America interviewing Reverend Charles Briscoe of the Palle Baptist Church. The date is November 19, 1975 and the time is 9:15. Reverend Briscoe, when were you born? I was born in June 1931 here in Kansas City, in fact, not too

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far from where we're sitting right now. Born over at 2217 W. Uh, I guess many of the babies at that time were born in homes rather than hospitals. Um. So, I was born in our home. Hm. Um, At that time, were they, was there, was there

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a, a great, uh, midwife program, Well, no, uh, of course, I don't know. I couldn't say about how extensive the midwife program was. Uh, Doctor Frank Huff was my mother's doctor when I was born. Uh, he was a longtime physician here in Kansas City and a

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well known, He died, I guess, about 5 years, 4 or 5 years ago. But he's a well respected person of the community, and I thought quite a bit of him, and I believe he felt the same way about me. So, at that time, uh, the babies

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were delivered by physicians in the homes rather than, uh, in the hospital? Well, I could not say what percentage was delivered in the home and what percentage was delivered in the hospital. But I do know that, uh, I was born in a home, um. Uh, I

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have three brothers. I don't know just how many of them were born, In the hospital, but, uh, I know I was born at home. Uh, were your parents, uh, what, what were the conditions around, uh, The time that you were gone. That. As you recall, at

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31 it was during the time of the depression here. Uh, my father's been a, He's dead now, however, but my father was a hard worker all of his life. I mean, the jobs that he had were not easy jobs at all. And I remember as a

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child, he told the times when, Uh, men would just stand waiting for another man to fall out from the work so he can get a job. He told how hard the situation was. As I mentioned before, I came from a family where there were 4 boys.

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We had a baby sister who died of pneumonia. In about 19 Uh, 36, I believe it was, uh, I was just 4 years old, in fact, that's one of the very first. Uh, recollections that I have the police coming from the hospital to tell my mother.

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That my baby sister had passed. Uh, we had it hard. I mean, I, Know what it is to have a hard time. Um, I know what it is not to get some of the things that, uh, What some children look for. I look at my children

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and I thank God for them. I can't give them what some parents are able to give their children. But yet, uh, uh, there are some things that, Uh, my children had before they were teenagers that I never did have in my life. But, uh, Hard times

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in themselves never really hurt anyone. It's the people's response and reaction to these times. Um-hum. But we know what it was to face hard times. Uh, we know what it was to be without food and be without some of the real necessities. Of life. And I

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look back to that, uh, And as I look back to it, uh, I'm, grateful for what I have now because I realize that what I have now is something that I have not always had. Mm Uh, would the, uh, majority of the people, uh, in the

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same kind of, uh, situation that that yourself and your family found themselves in? Well, I believe, I would say most people were in that kind of a situation. Um, There were a number of, number of families that, uh, found it very hard. And as I talked

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with people who were growing up at that time, They too faced a heart condition. I knew what it was to uh be confronted with uh problems that revolved itself around economics. Uh, there were some people who did have it well. Uh, I noticed when I went

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to school, there were some people who, uh, dressed better and, and seemed far, who fared better than most of them. But I would say that I was somewhere around the average, maybe just, uh, economically, just, uh, But on the lower level than the average. Let's see.

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Uh, what about your education? I went to school here in Kansas City. I finished, uh, Addicks Elementary School. I went from addicts to RT Coles, which was a vocational high school. Uh, it was a junior high and senior high. You could take a trade there. I

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took music as a vocation. I learned to play, uh, The saxophone, mainly, saxophone, clarinet. Uh, I also played, uh, the baritone horn and the trumpet, uh, a little bit. But from Mr. Leo Davis, who was the uh music instructor there, I learned the fundamentals of harmony.

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And also uh how to play a saxophone. In fact, before I. committed myself to the ministry I had planned to be a musician. And have played a little, I played a lot of places, not much at all, but I've played some. Where were those, uh, where

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are those schools located? RT Coles was located at 19th and Tracy. It took up a whole block, um. Uh, I went to school, as you would know, before, uh, the Supreme Court made the decision about integration. I recall very vividly how that I would pass by

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Manuel High School on our way to our own high school. I had to walk right past it. And when I hear people holler about bussing I always reflect on the fact that many blacks had to walk past, uh, several, sometimes white schools to get to their

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black schools and sometimes they were bused by several white schools to get to their black, uh, to the black school. Uh, the difference in the technical training at RT Coles and, uh, what was then called Manual School. Um, manual is still in existence and it's a,

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it's not a vocational school at all, it's just an academic school, but anyway, the difference was very apparent. You could walk by manual and see parts of a plain where people could learn welding and other different types of, uh, trades. And what we had at Kohl's,

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uh, had good teachers, I mean people who tried to help these students and did a good job. We have trades like shoe repair, cooking, hairdressing, bands. And other things like that, uh, auto repair, uh, electricity. But some of the trades that they were teaching the white

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kids, they were not teaching the black kids. Of course, I believe they could have rationalized the situation by saying, Uh, well, they won't be able to get the jobs anyway when they get out of school. But it was very obvious and when the Supreme Court made

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the decision that separate schools are inherently unequal, well then we knew this by experience before the Supreme Court made that statement. Uh, you said that, uh, you had quality teachings. Yes, we did. I mean, we had good teachers, I mean teachers who really believed in the

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students. Uh, there's a vast difference from the schools when I went to school and schools now. There's a respect that we had then that you do not have now. Uh, there are certain things that the teachers could demand. And command that they do not now. Now

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I'm not saying that we did not have problems. We had problems. We had fights in school. Uh, articles, as I indicated, was located at, 19th and Tracy, and I can remember some of the older kids going down on 18th Street and getting some drinks and coming

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back. But this was not extensive. I only remember that happening during the 4 years I was at Kohl's just 1 or 2 times. Um-hum. Uh, uh, there were drugs back then, but they were not as extensive as they are now. And all during my 4 years

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of school, I didn't know of one occasion where anyone would come to a school to try to sell drugs or deliver drugs. I came into contact with drugs but it was not at the school it was always, uh, it was away from the school and I

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came in contact one time and I think the person approached me because they felt that I had planned to be a musician and this was an image that some musicians had. Uh, there were fights in the school, but they were not like, uh, they are now.

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I mean, the fellows had fistfights and when they fought they were through, but now it's knives and guns, you see, and, uh, there's a difference. Uh, there was a difference, it seems, also in the, Matter motivation. That in many cases the kids wanted to study, I

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mean, when I was going to school. And now we're living in a time and I, uh, I'm not blaming kids because I think the whole tenor of society, uh, comes to bear on this issue, but there is a lack of motivation in our kids and there's

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a lack of, uh, accomplishment as far as their intellectual attainment is concerned in the school. Um, did your education end there at uh Coles, or? Uh, after I graduated from Coles, I went to the Grace Bible Institute of Omaha, Nebraska. Uh, the reason why I went

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there was because, uh, during my senior year in school, I committed myself to the Lord. Uh, that my life was going to be lived for him. As I indicated before, I had planned to be a musician. But in the senior year, in my senior year at

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Kohl's, I began to think very seriously. As to what I should do with my life. Uh, should I go as a musician or should I take another direction in life? Uh, in my early teens, I accepted Christ as my savior. Um, I heard in a very

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plain way the message about Christ, of His love, of his death on the cross, of His resurrection. And I receive him as my savior, and this brought about a real change in my life. And then in my senior year. In high school, I, um, at that

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point, uh, realized that my life was not mine but the Lord's. Yeah, all right. Yeah. As I mentioned during my senior year in high school. It was that time that I really thought seriously about my future, and I realized that the life that I had really

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belonged to the Lord, and I wanted to use it. In the way that I believe that will bring honor to him and what was, what I believe to be in keeping with his will. Now, there are some people who say that they have had some real

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traumatic experiences where they saw visions and things like that. Um. That never happened to me. Rather it was a A growing conviction. That this is what I should do. It was an inner urge that I had that my life should be dedicated to Christian service. It

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was in my senior year in high school that I made that decision. Uh, did any, anything, you know, say like, perhaps, A threat to your life or anything like that cause you to, to, uh, Make this kind of decision, uh, just, just like you said, it

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just grew. It, it was a growing urge. I had no threats to my life. In fact, uh, I enjoyed music, I enjoyed playing, um, Uh, I enjoyed the classes that I took under Mr. Davis. He was a good teacher. And a good leader Um But there

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was a higher loyalty that I had. It was a loyalty to Jesus Christ. Um, When I, uh, went off to school, I played the, my instruments at some occasions at school, Christian songs. Uh, when I came back from school, I sold my in my saxophone to

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get my wife our first anniversary present. And for 20 years, I never did pick up a saxophone after that. And then, uh, one time they asked a group of ministers to share some talents that they had. So, after 20 years, I picked up the saxophone and

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played a couple of songs, and they asked me to play it here at the church. So, but I haven't played it much since that time. Uh, did you go on to, uh, to graduate? Yes, I went to Grace. I attended Kohl's from 19, 144 to 1948.

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I went right after I graduated from Kole's to the uh Bible College. Uh, I attended there from 48 to 52, and then I came back to Kansas City. Uh, I took some graduate work at Central Seminary and later on I finished up at the, uh, Missouri

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School of Religion where I got my graduate degree in. And theology. And since that time have you been a pastor, uh, of an institution or how did your, your, All right. Uh, well, as far as pastoring, uh, I pastored a church in Brunswick, Missouri, the First

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Baptist Church. Brunswick is about 90 miles east of Kansas City on 24 Highway. And then I pastored Brunswick for 3 years and after pastor in Brunswick, I was asked to pastor the church in Mobley, Missouri. Uh, this was the Second Baptist Church of Mobily. I pasted

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that church for 3 years. It was while I was at Mobily that I commuted to Columbia, Missouri to take my graduate training at the School of Religion. Uh, after 3 years in Mobile, I was asked to come to Kansas City to direct the Kansas City Baptist

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Fellowship. Which is a liaison program between black and white Baptists in Kansas City. The Southern Baptists are predominantly white, your National Baptists are predominantly black, and I was asked to serve as a liaison, a go-between between the two, to develop areas that we can work together

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and a way that people can be brought together. And fellowship. Why do you, uh, why do you think that you were, you were chosen now to Actors. I don't know why it wasn't, Well, uh, number one, the, the Requirements for the position, uh, indicated that a

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person had to have a graduate degree in theology. He had to have a BD. And a BD is almost like a bachelor's in law. So, you get a bachelor's in law, you have to have your BA first and then you get your bachelor's in law. Well,

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then that's the way it works for a BD. You go 4 years to get your BA. And then you go 3 years above that to get your Bachelor of Divinity. They have changed the name since I graduated. Now it's called the Master's of Divinity degree because

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it is above the bachelor's. This was one reason. Another reason was that, uh, Um, the person who was in charge of this work knew me. And the person wrote and asked me if I would be interested in taking the work. But in this, uh, There's things

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that just fall into place in a person's life. And this was one of those things that fell in place. I had finished my graduate work at the school of religion. Uh, at that time, and as a pastor and as a Christian, I believe in God's guidance

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in a person's life. And my wife and I began to seek his leadership in our lives. And somehow there was an inner conviction before I knew. This would open up that uh something else was in store for me. And uh about a month after this conviction

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really crystallized in my thinking. Uh, I received a letter from, uh, Doctor Bell who directed the work, asking if I would consider this position, and I responded that I would, and those two come together just made me have the conviction. That this is God's leadership and

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will for me at that stage in my life. Uh, and then on from there, uh, how did this program work out? All right. Uh, I thought the program worked well. I, I really did, uh, there were some things that happened there that had not happened before,

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uh. Uh, for one, and uh this is in the early 60s now. This is in the early 60s, beginning of '63. This was during the height of the demonstrations and the time when there was tension between blacks and whites in the nation. So what we, one

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of the things that we did was that we had a program where uh we took a white couple from a white church who spent 6 weeks in a black church participating as a member uh without moving their membership to that particular church, and we picked out

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uh a black couple from a black church to attend a white church and really, uh, it was a tremendous experience for all the churches that were involved. And I remember that as we got this started that. We had an initial meeting at Saint Stephen Church, where

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the blacks and whites who were participating in the program just came together to kind of get acquainted. Uh, the first session that we had was, I did all the talking. Uh, I just went through some things with them, told them some things to expect. The second

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session we had within uh the blacks and whites began to loosen up a little bit. And they began to talk with one another. And when we had the 3rd session, this was before, uh, the program actually got started, these were a preparatory session. Well then, uh,

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we stood around and talked for a long time and I left the meeting because I had another engagement with the blacks and whites were still there talking. So it took a little while for the ice to break down, but once it did, well then I thought

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we had a very meaningful involvement and I still have some letters in my file. Of people who rose and told of the blessing that they received and and realized that the church should be doing more in areas like that. Now, this was a line of work,

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uh, that we were doing. My involvement between black and white Baptists in Kansas City. Help me as I ran for the school board because as you know, in Kansas City, Uh, The, uh, black population, I think, represents about 20 to 25% of the population here in

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the city. Uh, now this means that if a black candidate is running for anything, well then he's gonna have to get white votes to win. And because of my affiliation and working between black and white Baptists, they got to know me and, uh, for this reason,

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uh, establishing a rapport like that, well then I was able to get some of their votes. Um, uh, Now, some things about uh the Bazell Baptist Church and we also like to We realize that Kansas City has a unique group of people, a unique community, is

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a unique community. And uh we like to look at some of the growth and The growth that has been affected by the church and specifically by the. The Baptist. Yes. Also. And you were saying that uh the children At the time when you were in school,

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uh, uh, had a lot more motivation. Uh, and here we are today in 1975. We're also in a kind of a depression. Um-hum. Uh, uh, Could you kind of relate those areas, uh, of time and how do you see, uh, The factors, uh, the fact that

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we are in that kind of, uh, situation and the, the reaction of the youth of today as compared to the reaction again. All right. Uh, I think when you begin to look at young people today, you, you have to realize that we are coming out of

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a civil wars, a Korean conflict. Uh, the Vietnam conflict and the, the, the tension, the inner tension that we have had as a nation. The conflict between Black and White. Uh, I do not feel that any. A young person can grow up in a context like

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this without being affected by it. Now, when we grew up, uh even though the war got started in the late 30s and early 40s, we went into And yet the type of background that we had was a little different from the background that they had. Uh,

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they had, uh, I mean, it's just a war complex and many, many other parents grew up in, uh. Parents of these kids today. Grew up. Uh, with, uh, Uh, in a war economy where some of them had, were earning more money than they've ever earned in

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their lives. And it's just here of late that we have started back in the recession. But, um, uh, even in the recession, I know of kids who are driving cars, you know, today. Um-hum. And we, we wouldn't have thought about having these cars, uh, back then.

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Well, um, I, I think there's a difference. I think the whole, the, the whole, Feel of the world, the, the world situation. Uh, is brought to bear upon these young people and you see, uh, today, uh, you have to listen to the newscast almost every half

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an hour to keep up with things. Uh, it was not so, uh, back then. Uh, the world pressures. I mean, what happened in the Middle East affects us here. We, it is seen in the oil situation. And so the young people today are, are, are, are

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more aware, far more aware of world problems and other problems than what we are because they see it right on the television screen. It's just brought right there into their homes. I mean, it's a living reality, uh, with them. And so what I'm saying is we

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have a just a different time today. I'm not saying that these kids are any worse than what we are, but it, it's just a completely different situation, uh, than, than, than what we had when we were growing up. And as I look at the situation, I

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mean, especially from a black perspective, Uh, I'm concerned about what is happening to black families. And about the disintegration of the black home, and I would like to see us do something. They kind of make a real massive attack. Uh, on this problem to really see

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that, uh, there is a solidarity of the black form. That kids have a security in growing up and knowing that uh I have a mother that I can identify with and a father that I can identify with. Now historically, as you know, we've had problems along

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this line and it goes back even into slavery and I think we feel the aftereffects. Of this, but I would like to see something, um, uh, something done for the family. One of the things that I said as I began to bring my children up that

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I wanted them at least to have a very solid home. Um, As I before indicated that, um, I think the times in which we live, Have really. Uh, worked against the family, and then again, there are some philosophies that are going about ideas that people have.

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That the home is not necessary. I think one of the negative impacts of a feminist movement is women refusing uh a role as a female. Now this is not a wholesale combination of this movement because I believe in the equality of the sexes and I believe

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if a woman does a job that a man does she should get the same pay for it and I, I, I accept that. But one of the negative impacts, I mean, and there are some some negative impacts in this whole women's liberation movement, there's a very

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definite negative impacts, and one of them. Uh, has been kind of a, a rejection of the home, and this has brought about an insecurity on the part of the child. I mean, uh, a woman feels that being a housewife and a mother is a, uh, uh,

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a role that's inferior. Well then I, I don't think there's any more noble thing that a person can do. I mean, and, and, and this is not to discount the fact that we have women out in society who play very significant roles there. But I, whereas,

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uh, I would agree to a woman's right to play these roles in society, but I, I think it's very unfortunate that some have looked upon the role of being a mother and a housewife as a role of a slave. Uh, the church has always played an

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important role in the unifying. Uh, first, uh, one cell. The, uh, family, and, uh, The growth of the community in itself, spiritual growth, basically. Uh, how do you see, uh, the church having done this in the past? What do you think the methods were? How can

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we relate them to now in order that we may maintain such. All right, I think the black church. And I say black church because it is a reality. The church itself If it's true to its history. Uh. Should not be either black or white because. Uh,

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the church is the body of Jesus Christ. That brings together All kinds of people and when you look back into the history of the church you discover that in spite of the faults that people have had it has been the church that have that have uh

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upheld the rights of children especially when the church first got it first got started the early church the rights of women uh were upheld by the church uh it brought together slave and master uh. And sometimes the slave was the minister that preached and served communion

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to the master who sat there uh it it it it it was that body that says there is no difference between race, culture, class, sex or denomination. I mean we're all one in Christ now this is the church in its ideal form. Within the black community,

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the church has played a very significant role. In fact, Uh, the preachers to begin with were the most educated people within the black community. They were the natural leaders. And when I hear people today condemning the church, I, I feel that they're doing so forgetting that

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really the contribution made by the black pastor and by the black church. The church was a school, the church was a town meeting place, the church was a social institution, the church was a place where they could come and find a sense of relief from the

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crushing frustrations that that people faced in that day. It was a place where people received a sense of dignity from the uh sneers and the uh name calling that many blacks had to face uh in that day in the lynching and mobbing and all of this

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was a place where people could come together and sang and shout and drain uh uh themselves of these pent up feelings that they've been gathering all week long when they had to work for the for for the white man so. It, the church has been a

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mother and a father, uh, in, in the black community and providing it with some things that uh I don't see how the black community really could have survived as it did without the element of the church. The church has gone through, uh, some changes. It really

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has. The church has been a spiritual, uh, uh, place where people can receive spiritual guidance, but it's been, uh, uh, it, but as it interpreted its spiritual role, it just didn't see it in terms of, uh, a person's relationship with God, but it saw it also

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in terms of a person's relationship with man. And a person's relationship with his government and a person's relationship with his society. And you see there was, uh, I believe it was Paul Laurence Dunbar who wrote the antebellum sermon and in that he was saying that every

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man that God put breath in, he had intended that that man should be free, and this was based upon Moses delivering the people of Israel out of Egypt. So what I'm saying is that the church gave a sense of dignity to people and it put within

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them that sense of freedom and really, uh, as I studied the Bible. I really study the Bible. No one could really. Have a healthy understanding of the Bible and be content to be second class in anything I mean no one can do that so uh. And

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the churches, uh, the church has been done a good work now I'm not saying that all churches have been everything they should be. I mean because the church is made up of people and whenever you have anything made up of people, you're going to have failures

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and mistakes you're going to have problems. Uh, now, our church, uh, We are trying in some way to help now, uh, there are people in our city who are faced with emergency needs. I mean, just this morning, we got a call from a mother of, I

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believe at least 3 children who do not, uh, where they don't have lights, and right now, uh, it's cold at night, and they need the heat in their home. And they don't have money to turn these lights on. She needs $190 some dollars to get it

00:33:32.670 - 00:33:50.030

turned on. Well, we've received a number of calls like that. We have money set aside. To help out in situations like that and then we work with other agencies in providing help. And not only that, there are other areas that we are seeking to serve and

00:33:50.030 - 00:34:09.919

have served, but I, I believe that the main purpose of the church is to provide the people with a type of spiritual background and fortification. Uh, a type of a commitment of life. Uh, where they can really when they get out in the community and on

00:34:09.919 - 00:34:26.120

their jobs they can make a real significant contribution to it. I, I feel this is the church basic role is to deal with people and preparing them and equipping them, uh, to be the person in the community and in their homes that, that, that, that they

00:34:26.120 - 00:34:42.718

should be. And I think if the church does this, it will do a great job. Besides that, the church as a whole also can address itself to some problems that confront our community, uh. Uh, we signed petitions to get a black person to run for the

00:34:42.718 - 00:34:58.539

school board because we need blacks on the school board. I mean, not just for the sake of having blacks, but, uh, in many cases the whites just don't know all the problems that exist within the black community. I mean this is not a word of condemnation,

00:34:58.958 - 00:35:16.679

but it's just like, uh, uh, there's some things about the white family I wouldn't know. Well, there's, there's some things about the, the, the black feeling and concerns and problems that many of our white friends, uh, uh, just don't know as another black person would have,

00:35:16.870 - 00:35:34.419

would, would know, know this, so we have supported, uh, a black candidate as I've. Uh, as you know, I ran for the board. And the only way that I could have served on the board was that I had a church that uh uh encouraged and and

00:35:34.419 - 00:35:48.830

uh to have the time because it did take time to serve as a member of the board. Uh, it just meant a fuller day for me. I tried not to, uh. Neglect the church in any way. But uh it took up my time to serve on

00:35:48.830 - 00:36:07.780

the, on the board. So, uh, the church has played a very significant role and especially within the Kansas City area, we have a very strong Baptist ministers union. Uh, which has addressed itself to problems such as the price problem that we had. I don't know if

00:36:07.780 - 00:36:25.209

you recall, that for some time, the city kind of wavered on getting a trash program here. And uh we saw trash mounting up within the black community. We didn't get the services that we should. And so the ministers went and several times asked them to find

00:36:25.209 - 00:36:39.449

some way to get this trash hauled away, uh, uh, from our communities. But they said we can't do anything. And then at one time the minister says, now if you don't do it, we're going on 25th and the sale, just set up a big trash fire

00:36:39.449 - 00:36:55.179

right out there. Well, it kind of shocked some people and they said, oh, ministers shouldn't break the law or anything like that. But I found out that sometimes, uh, whereas, uh, I don't agree with all methods, But there's some people that just won't listen. Um-hum. Until

00:36:55.179 - 00:37:16.379

you really, uh, do something, Way out of the ordinary to get their attention. Uh, I remember one time, Some very influential whites who called together some black leaders in the community and they said in essence, you know, we're sorry we didn't listen to you. He says

00:37:16.379 - 00:37:34.159

we've been cussed out now by the radical element, and we feel now that we should have listened to you all along. Sometimes it takes those cussings to make them aware that they should have listened to some saner voices to begin with. And so when the ministers

00:37:34.159 - 00:37:50.439

went down to the city hall in regard to the trash, they went several times, but nothing was done. And then when there was a threat to say we're going to burn some trash at 25th and for sale, well then they, uh, uh, some movement was made.

00:37:50.780 - 00:38:05.000

I mean some movement was made, and right now in Kansas City we do have a trash program. I'm not saying the ministers are the only, uh, persons who did anything about it, but they were one of those voices that spoke to encourage that this would happen.

00:38:06.340 - 00:38:24.820

Uh, uh, on the founding of, of, uh, the Sabas. Uh, this church is an old church. It's 91 years old. Uh, that, that's, that's old, that's old as a church. This, however, is not the oldest church and oldest black church. There are other black churches older

00:38:24.820 - 00:38:45.600

than Sale Baptist Church, but this church was organized in 1884, and its name at that time was the Shallow, Shallow Baptist Mission, in fact. It was organized at 20th in Baltimore, which is a downtown area now as I talked with my father and my grandmother, my

00:38:45.750 - 00:39:01.489

paternal grandmother, I found out that blacks lived in the early part of this history, uh, uh, early history of this city, uh, around 18th and Grand and all of this, which is prime property now, but at one time blacks owned. Uh, that property, or at least

00:39:01.489 - 00:39:24.459

lived there at that property, and this church was located at 20th and, and, and, in Baltimore. And the first pastor was Reverend GA Turner. Uh, these are men, of course, I would not know. Reverend Briscoe, uh, you said the church was organized, uh, in 1884 and

00:39:24.459 - 00:39:45.790

it was a shiloh Baptist mission by Reverend GA Turner. Was he the founder of the church? And he was the first pastor of the church. And I don't know just exactly how long he served as a pastor. But in the long history of this church, this

00:39:45.790 - 00:40:07.350

church has not had many pastors and. Some of the pastors have served a long time. I may have mentioned that, uh, Doctor Holmes, who succeeded me as pastor of this church, served here for 46 years. Doctor, uh, DA Holmes. Doctor DA Holmes, yes, right. Could you

00:40:07.350 - 00:40:38.010

tell us, uh, a little bit about, um, This uh Ministry. Well, uh, Doctor Holmes followed, uh, A minister by the name of TH Ewing, TH Ewing. Uh, Doctor Holmes came here in 1921. And he served here until 1967. Of course, uh, as you would know, many

00:40:38.010 - 00:41:02.580

things took place during that time. Uh, we, they went through the twenties. Uh, into the depression era. Ah, in Kansas City, there was a tinner gas regime. Which Doctor Holmes played a very vital part in speaking out effectively against the abuses and corruption of that particular

00:41:02.580 - 00:41:29.780

party. Uh, or I should say political machinery. Uh, Doctor Holmes, Uh, led this church from Vine Street 1825 Vine to its present location at 25th and Pasale. In fact, uh, this church has had some, had several names, as I mentioned before, it was first called the

00:41:29.780 - 00:42:02.090

Shiloh Baptist Mission. And then it moved to 1322 East 18th Street where it was uh called the Mount Carmel Baptist Church. And then from there it moved to 1825 Vine Street and there it was called the Vine Street Baptist Church. Then in 1931, um, there was

00:42:02.090 - 00:42:28.469

a march made from the Vine Street Baptist Church up here to the Passa Baptist Church. And uh this construction, I understand, began in 1927. It was not fully completed until 1942, so. Uh, it was some, Oh, I'd say some 15 years or so in the in

00:42:28.469 - 00:42:46.250

the building and the final mortgage on the church was paid in July of 1949, so the church has a very interesting history and a rich history. Doctor Holmes did an outstanding job. He built a great church. He said that, uh, when he first came, he added

00:42:46.250 - 00:43:10.969

500 people each year to the membership of this church, uh. Uh, he was an outstanding orator, a great speaker, a great thinker. Uh, he's a man that stood about 64 6 ft 4, 63 or 4. Uh, with a very heavy resonant voice, and he commanded respect

00:43:10.969 - 00:43:30.379

wherever he went. He was a clear thinker, one who could think on his feet. He was a man who uh spoke with real authority. And he had the respect of people all over Kansas City, not only Kansas City, but in other places as well. So Doctor

00:43:30.379 - 00:43:54.060

Holmes did a great job here at the Paseo Baptist Church, and he was old, near 90 years old when, well, he was 90 years old when he, uh, retired, uh, so he served 46 years, did a very good work while he was here. Uh, And you

00:43:54.060 - 00:44:14.820

say there were probably, uh, there were a few ministers, uh, there were 3. Two, I think you named two before you named, uh, Doctor Holmes. All right. I mentioned that it started out with Reverend GA Turner. Um-hum. As the first pastor. And then the second pastor

00:44:14.820 - 00:44:47.110

was Reverend C Shackle Shackelford. The next pastor was Reverend Dan Jones, and then he was followed by Reverend TH Ewing. And as I mentioned before, Reverend Holmes followed, uh, Reverend Ewing. And then in May of 1967 I became pastor here at the South Baptist Church. Uh,

00:44:48.060 - 00:45:06.870

of the, uh, from the, from the outset as far as, uh, Uh, the time that, uh, Doctor Holmes and yourself, you had quite a job coming, uh, into the church behind such a, such a great person as Doctor Holmes and probably the other minister because it

00:45:06.870 - 00:45:28.860

seemed that Uh, The intention of the uh of the pastors who were initial founders uh uh. Uh, a little more serious than a lot of the, uh, pastors you see now. I mean this is a kind of uh stigma that is is is here that exists,

00:45:29.149 - 00:45:46.270

you know how do you feel about it. You mean, now, let me get you clear. You said the pastors then were more serious than some you see today? Right. Well, I, I guess a lot depends upon the pastors that you look at uh my movement is

00:45:46.270 - 00:46:07.189

among many pastors in the city and. Uh, of course pastors are people, but I have, uh, seen a real dedication on the part of many of them that I know a real concerned about the community, a real concern about, uh, reaching out and touching and helping,

00:46:07.330 - 00:46:27.260

uh, other lives. Sometimes when men began to look back, I mean men look better from a distance than they do right upon them. And possibly when they begin to write the history about what is happening today, well then, uh, I'm sure that many of those men.

00:46:28.159 - 00:46:43.870

About whom they would write will look better at that point than probably they did uh at this day. Uh, we did have some outstanding men. Doctor Holmes added to the leadership of the church. His wife was the minister of music for the church, and she did

00:46:43.870 - 00:47:03.310

an excellent job in raising a high quality and caliber of music for the church, and, and the influence is felt even to this day, uh, for sale, uh, does not have. Uh, what I would term cheap music. I mean it tries to have music of real

00:47:03.310 - 00:47:28.639

worth here in the church. Um, Doctor Doctor Holmes' contribution was in building this building and also providing uh some real serious leadership uh other churches in the city. Uh, since, uh, I have served as pastor, with the, uh, we've had to make some adjustments for many

00:47:28.639 - 00:47:49.550

things, uh. Uh, several things that we have tried to bring on to the church. The one thing has been a real emphasis in evangelistic outreach, and by this we mean that, uh. The membership of the church should be involved in the evangelistic thrust of the church.

00:47:50.120 - 00:48:08.159

And I feel that reaching out and touching people with the good news about Jesus Christ is not left simply to the pastor or to some hired staff, but that every believer has a responsibility of sharing his faith. This has been one of the emphasis, uh, that

00:48:08.159 - 00:48:25.510

we have made while we were, he, uh, uh, while we served here as pastor of the church. And then again another emphasis that we have had is an emphasis on young people we've tried to involve young people in the ministry of the church and uh we

00:48:25.510 - 00:48:43.120

have a a well attended youth choir. Uh, we have young people sharing in some of the things that we are doing here, uh, when we get ready to go out into the neighborhood to, to reach the neighborhood for Christ, then, uh, many of those who go

00:48:43.120 - 00:49:04.149

with us are young people. Uh, another thing that we had was that we had a teen parent center here and this was a center for unwed mothers where they could come and finish their high school training and also, uh, uh, be, uh, taught the necessary. Um,

00:49:05.320 - 00:49:23.300

Health skills that they needed in bringing the baby into the world and also caring for the baby, uh they were able to get uh prenatal and also postnatal uh training and knowing how to care for the child when the child was uh delivered and then also

00:49:23.600 - 00:49:44.540

they received counseling instruction, uh, there. No doubt were some who wanted to uh give their child up for adoption because they realized that they did not have all that was necessary to provide a proper home for the child. So, uh, for at least a couple of

00:49:44.540 - 00:50:07.909

years we had a teen parent center here and we provided a home. Uh, for them. Uh, Well, there have been some other things that we've tried to do. We've built a library. Onto the church since we've been here we purchased a property for parking. Facilities We

00:50:08.620 - 00:50:29.409

purchase Several lots around the church. We have a problem in terms of property here that. Uh, the man who owns a property next door refuses to sell. To the church, he would like for the church to agree to let him have a liquor store somewhere around

00:50:29.409 - 00:50:49.610

here and the church refuses to do that. In fact, he just could not compromise, uh, at that point. But we were able to buy, The corner lots on 25th and Bassale and the corner lots on 25th and Vine. And we put the parking lots there for

00:50:49.610 - 00:51:09.419

the church. We have seen, uh, especially recently a growth in the church and attendance and also in the way that the people are sharing in the full support of the church. We've had a minister of Christian Education. We do not have it at this point, but

00:51:09.439 - 00:51:25.899

we, He was able to get a better job after he served with us for a while. He is now working for a publishing company, so some things have taken place during the time that we, uh, have been here. We, there is a young lady who is

00:51:25.899 - 00:51:43.139

serving as a missionary to Liberia, West Africa. And most of her support comes from this church. Uh, we developed a scholarship fund where we have given scholarship funds to young people. Of course there have been young people of our church who wanted to go on to

00:51:43.139 - 00:52:03.149

school and who needed some help in going to school. Our church is supporting, uh, Western Baptist Bible College to a tune of $1000 a year as well as Martin Luther King Hospital. We're giving to that to the amount of $1000 a year. We're trying to reach

00:52:03.149 - 00:52:30.189

out and and. And be a part of the ministry. Uh, different. Christian movements. Uh, not only in our city but also elsewhere as well. I think uh probably the founders had a job of, of, of just basically establishing something. uh and uh in that time, which,

00:52:30.199 - 00:52:51.399

which, which probably made it gave it that kind of a pioneer fling that made it seem more attractive in that time and this time it seems that there's there's so much confusion. In the world, uh, what do you see as some of the answers to the

00:52:51.399 - 00:53:14.500

problems such as hunger and, uh, uh. Uh, ignorance, uh, poverty that, uh, that are beginning to really come closer to home and it seems to really be bringing more people to. The organized structure of the church. All right. Religion. Uh, As far as hunger is concerned,

00:53:14.580 - 00:53:29.699

I believe the answer to that, uh, an answer to that problem is that the people who have the money and the resources should share with people who do not. I mean, there's no need for us to be overweight in America and people dying of starvation in

00:53:29.699 - 00:53:52.979

other lands. Now, uh, I belong to a group of Baptist ministers union and we took up an offering that was given from our churches of $2500 to send over to the, uh, Sahara district or area of Africa. This was at the height of the famine when,

00:53:53.360 - 00:54:12.679

uh, the desert was moving and there was no rain and people could not grow crops and the problem still exists to this day. Uh, about a month ago we had. An observance here at the church on a Sunday afternoon where people came by and were informed

00:54:12.679 - 00:54:36.260

of the problem again. And Money was given towards this. We have several members of our church who is uh serving with AICare where they're raising funds to relieve the hunger problem in Africa so I believe one solution to the problem is that those those of us

00:54:36.260 - 00:54:53.409

who have should share with those who do not have. Uh, I, I feel that we should not only share our resources but also share our technical skills too because I agree with that person. Where he says if you give a man a fish, well you feed

00:54:53.409 - 00:55:09.120

him for a day, but if you give him a line and something to fish with and teach him how to fish, well then you're making him a self-sustaining person and I believe we should share our technical skills with him. Uh, as far as poverty is concerned

00:55:09.610 - 00:55:26.360

and as far as education is concerned, I believe some of these two, are tied in together in some ways they're tied in together. I believe the problem, uh, much of the problem here is, is in the matter of motivation and then also it's in a matter

00:55:26.360 - 00:55:48.080

of, uh, America being the just nation that it should be. I, a while after I finished college, I worked for 10 years at the post office. And After I became pastor here, they asked me to come and speak to a group of young people who were

00:55:48.080 - 00:56:07.600

coming there for a training program during the summer. After I got through speaking, the postmaster had me to come up to his office and introduce me to, uh, some men who were planning, uh, for the progress of that particular post office. And I was surprised when

00:56:07.600 - 00:56:22.399

I looked around the room and I didn't see, I did not see a blank face among them. And uh some of the men who were there for the planning were men that I knew because I had worked with them. And I knew that there were uh

00:56:22.800 - 00:56:43.050

well prepared, capable, educated black men there at the post office who had as much or more seniority than some of those men who were there so uh. I realized uh it it it reinforced the fact that in spite of what our government says our government is

00:56:43.050 - 00:57:05.469

not always doing uh what it says it's it's practice sometimes is inconsistent with his preachments. So, uh, one way of dealing with poverty is that there should be justice in in jobs and promotion and hiring and also, uh, promoting in jobs. But then another problem along

00:57:05.469 - 00:57:21.850

this line that ties in with the matter of education is the matter of motivation. People need to be motivated uh kids go to school and they, uh. See them sometimes just don't really try to learn. They don't give themselves to learn. In some way we need

00:57:21.850 - 00:57:42.459

uh uh to uh find a way we need to find a way to motivate these kids. And this is a concern that we as a church have. Uh, we want to. Learn effective ways of dealing with family structures. And one of the problems that I feel

00:57:42.459 - 00:58:00.199

that we have within our community is a disintegration of the black. Family and we want to find some ways that we can minister, really help. And bring about a cohesiveness within the black family because I feel that this is something that we should address ourselves to

00:58:01.080 - 00:58:20.209

as a church. I believe many of the problems that you that crop out in the school and in the classrooms uh have as its root causes some problems that exist in the home. And I feel that if we can minister to the home we will have

00:58:20.270 - 00:58:49.530

also some re uh some effects on what happens in our public school system. Um, People are being indoctrinated to believe that uh uh through uh mass media, television. Um, the different modes of dress. Different, different modes of different means of communication that