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This is April 13th, 1976. I am Ella Pruitt. I'm interviewing on behalf of the Black Archives. I'm interviewing Reverend CL Backus, C being Clemmy L. Backus. I'm interviewing him at his church, Mount. Zion Baptist Church located at 5th and Richmond 417 Richmond. We'll begin the interview,

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uh, pri uh focusing primarily on Reverend Backus' early childhood. Reverend Backus, would you tell me when and where you were born? Well, uh, Uh, Ms. Pruitt, I was born in, uh, DeSoto County, Mississippi. Uh, at a place called Hernan. About 15 miles south of Memphis, Tennessee.

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Reverend Backus, will you tell me your mother and your father's name and a little about them? Well, uh, my father was, uh, named Eddie Backus Senior. Uh, he was the son of, uh, Of an Indian woman and of a father who was primarily Irish and were

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some of the uh settlers in the Soda County of Mississippi. His father was named Henderson Backus uh and, and they owned some farmland, some 4 or 500 acres of farmland. Uh, west of Henando, Mississippi, about 4 miles on what was then called the Commerce Road. Uh,

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so my father's background is basically like that, and I think that he was born there in DeSoto County. However, I don't know, uh, where the, uh, father might have come from to that settling point. Uh, and by the way, the Bacchus name can be traced somewhat

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to an Egyptian wine goddess that was named Bacchus in Egypt back in ancient times, and so apparently it's, uh, you know, an oriental type name, uh, historically sound, and my mother, of course, was primarily from A family that, uh, her uncle raised her, Uh, in a

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little community called Pleasant Hill. And what was her name? Her name was Leona Eason. Leona. OK. Leona Eason. Uh, her mother died at a, a very early age and, uh, so as a result of it, she was reared by an uncle and an aunt. Uh, named

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Felix Thomas. I do not know the, uh, his wife's name. I didn't, they were both, uh, preceded. Uh, in death before I was old enough to know anything about it. And my mother's, uh, was primarily, uh, a black woman who had the traces of basically the

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Negro heritage. So we kind of, uh, ended up being fairly mixed as a result of it in complexions and, uh, hair quality and, and uh some other things. OK, how many brothers and sisters do you have? Uh, I have, uh, Ace. It was, I have, it

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was 15 sisters and brothers all told. However, the one of the sisters were by my father's previous marriage. Uh, and by my mother, there was 14 children born which consisted of, uh, 9 boys and 5 girls. And presently, 13 of us still live and my entire

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family basically live around Memphis, Tennessee at this point. Do you know whether or not you were born in a hospital or a midwife? I was born by a midwife in, uh, in fact, all 14 of my mother's children were born in a log cabin, well, not

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really a log cabin, but a house that was primarily built out of logs, uh, and all 14 was delivered by a midwife. OK, uh. Recollection on the type of uh activities you had as a child. Was your parent, uh, were your parents active in church? Uh,

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my parents were very religious, very religious. Of what religion? Of, of the, uh, Baptist Church. We are all Protestants and we are the Baptist denomination along the Protestant line. And my father and mother was very, very active in church all of my life. In fact, my

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whole family that I knew, uh, have been very active in church. My father served as almost uh every position in the church and, and during my time, uh, remembering he served as the uh secretary of the church, superintendent of Sunday school and also uh were on

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the deacon board and someone served as chairman. One of my mother particularly was just uh a part maybe of things like the mission society and things of that nature. Uh, one additional thing was my, my father was uh of one of the prominent families in the

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community because of the fact that uh we were land owners, not an awful lot but were raised, uh, you know, on, on, uh, on their own farm rather than plantation life. And our school situation at that time, my father also was the chairman or maybe president

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of our local school board, at which time each community or church basically built their own schools and that was 3 people picked from the community to serve as trustees of those schools. And actually, my father was, uh, the head of the school board, uh, 35, 40

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years ago. OK. Now, um, you said you were living on a farm. Any cows, and chickens? Yes, we had, uh, we, uh, we raised, uh, cows, uh, uh, chickens, uh, we had mules and, of course, my father raised sheep also somewhat in a somewhat small quantity,

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but we did, uh, raise some sheep. OK, let's go into your, uh, education as far as your, uh, early education. What school. Maybe I would, I would like to say something else about the farm, like, That uh we primarily, uh, as it relate to the agricultural

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part of our farming was basically cotton farmers and uh did the other thing that one horse farmers did like raised a little corn, uh, peanuts and gardens and walnut patches and things like that. So primarily my life was uh settled around chopping cotton and plowing and

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picking cotton. I stayed in the country until I was 18. So my background until I was at least 1718 years old, was, uh, being a farm boy, doing all of the things that you normally do. Right. On the farm. OK, but during this time, you were

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on the farm and you got to go to school too, right? Yes, we went to school. What was the name of the school? Well, the schools, basically the communities in, in, uh, I, uh, county was generally named after the local church, especially in the black community,

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and we lived in what we call the rising sun community which was the name of our local church. And uh the church uh was the agency which build our schools. The church built the local elementary school. And uh it was named the Riding Sun School after

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the name of the church. So my school life was, I started school at about 65 or 6, and uh doing in my first few years in school, uh, in first 1st and 2nd year when uh I was in the 1st grade. Uh, our school terms only

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lasted for 3 months at a time, and the reasoning for it was that school would start about, uh, the 1st of December and close around the 1st of March, uh, or maybe around the 15th of March. Reasoning was that farming was the, was the prevalent occupation

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of the community and They, we closed the school so boys could go to the field and, and etc. because most of the community was, was a plantation type community. And so only other schooling that we would get during the year would be what was termed at

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that time, uh, pay school where parents would pay during the season between what we call laying by the cotton crop to cotton picking time would uh be pay school. We went to school 6 weeks and I remember distinctively that, uh, my parent, the, the, the, the

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school board. In fact, the state did not pay the teachers for that 6 weeks period, so the parents who wanted their kids to go to school, and I remember distinctively my parents paid 10 cents a week for us to, and that was to compensate the teacher,

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uh, to take advantage of those 6 weeks that we will not be actually informed, and which means that in my early education. I generally only went to school at any time over 4 months out of the year. OK, and during this time, what was the curriculum?

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Was it just reading? Uh, basically, um, uh, reading, uh, writing, working arithmetic, uh, we, uh, you know, learned, uh, the language, uh, uh, things like that, basically, just basic education. Do you remember, uh, can you recall? The type of books, did you have any books or

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this was just coming straight from the teacher's head, putting it on the board? We did have, uh, books, very, uh, uh, limited in, in quantities, however, but we did have books, you know, arithmetic, uh, spelling books, uh, uh, English books that sometime, of course, was torn

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up that we got from the, in most cases the, we got them from the. Uh, school district who gave us books that had been been prior used by uh the white schools in the community. Many times books that didn't have index in them and things like

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this and we just had to teach so the teacher did have to be Uh, very, very sharp to make sure that, uh, you know, everybody got an equal opportunity to learn something. And, however, uh, they produced some very good students, I think. Well, I'm quite sure

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you want us to, OK. Now, you continued on, I see, uh, secondary education at Baptist Industrial High School. Yes. Uh, the Baptist Industrial High School was a black high school that was supported by our, uh, uh, convention and association, Baptist churches combined in, Uh, some 3

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or 4 counties to provide educational opportunities beyond an elementary level, uh, to black children. We did not have a public high school. No secondary education, in fact, was offered, uh, in DeSoto County, Mississippi where I came from by the public education system until in 1955 or

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1956. Uh, in everybody who received an education, especially anywhere beyond. The 6th or 7th grade had to do it through private school and those schools were generally subsidized, uh, subsidized in fact by local churches which was done collectively through the local association in Albert Baptist state

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convention. And which means that had not been for the church, uh, where I come from, and, and most blacks would not have ever had an opportunity to be educated. We have to really give all of the credit. To the local church because they even build, uh,

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elementary schools even though they did not pay the teachers, they did have to build a school. They had to do that, uh, before they could get any help from, you know, the regular state board of education. OK, before we complete, um, The secondary part, let me

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ask you this. Outside of, of church and, you know, going to school and working, working on the farm. What did you do for recreation? Well, we, uh, uh, shot marbles, uh, we enjoyed, uh. Uh, playing ball, even though we was batting many times with a crooked

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stick. Out of, uh, balls that we had sometimes made up out of rags, and every now and then we'd get over to what we would call a stow ball ball at the time. Uh, never knowing anything about, uh, You know, wear baseball gloves and things too

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much. When we had a hardball, generally we would, uh, pack our hands with, uh, with a rag or a cap or something to take away some of the sting. Um-hum. Uh, we, that was generally our activity, playing games, uh, such as, uh, uh, a game we

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knew as a child is goosey goosey gambler thing, hide the switch. Uh, hi and style. Well, how'd you play goosey goosey gander? I have to know. It was one of them things where you played, you said goosey goosey gander fox, uh, in the ma or something

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like that runs. No, uh, but anyway, you ran from one, place to another. Uh, I can't remember the game. It was quite interesting that you played hide and spy was a game where you hid. And you would always have an agent who would be looking for

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you. Something like we call hide and go seek, I guess. Yeah, kind of hide we call it hide and spot. It was quite interesting because many times we would try our best to hide with a girl, even though it wasn't always successful. Uh, hide and switch

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was a very, uh, interesting game. It was where That you, uh, would hide the switch and whoever would find that switch or whoever would find you had the opportunity to whip you with that switch until you got back to the headquarters, you know, like maybe making

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a home run, so it was really interesting. Another interesting thing we had was what we call pop the whip. Where, uh, you would get, uh, some 10 or 12 kids together and they would hold each other's hands and the leader would, and it would just go

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round and round, uh, and it would start getting fast and it would get to be pretty hard for the person on the end to continue to stand up. And so popping the whip would be of the nature that that person on the end generally would be

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popped and loose and sometimes you'd be popped and loose halfway, uh, It was really, really interesting that we had so much fun and Miss Pruitt, may I say that, uh, Uh, I, I very much regret that my children never got a chance to live and enjoy

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life like I did. That's as a child. This open life. Right. Uh-huh. Uh, it was more fun for me to look forward to a Marvel game or playing hide andy than it is for my kids to look forward to going to Six Flags over Texas. Uh,

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and it brings us down to the point that, that, that, that we're being, uh, completely cheated out of, uh, any enthusiasm in life. I haven't seen my kids really, you know, excited. Uh, about big things as I was, you know, knowing that Saturday and Sunday was

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coming where we could go to church and meet our friends and, uh, shoot marbles, uh, roll wheels, uh, uh, uh, whatever we was gonna do, and I think it's a very bad tragedy that, uh, uh, our young kids now have suddenly been exposed and had so

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much until all of the real natural fun has been taken out of life. OK, now we're going to your high school years. You served as president of your junior class. Approximately after completing 12th grade, can you recall approximately how many? Seniors graduated. Uh, my graduating class

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probably had about, uh, 20 seniors in it, 2025, and three of them was, uh, three of the Backus brothers. Me and two of my brothers graduated the same year. Both of them were older than myself, however, In, uh, school days then, if you were smart enough,

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you could always catch up, you know, such things as passing grades, uh, based upon, uh, whether or not you were capable of sometimes making two grades almost at one time and it resulted in the fact that, uh, Even though I've never been really technical, I didn't

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like to write and uh that kind of stuff. I was able to. Get by. Um-hum. Well, I see here that you had a scholarship, a vocal, a scholarship. Now, how, what's the pronunciation? Cahoma? Yeah, Cahoma Junior College. In Clarksville, Mississippi. Clarksdale, Missis. Clark, did you go?

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No, I didn't go. Why didn't you? Well, you know, uh, Even though that I'm, you know, not an old fellow, the incentive for going to college was not very strong at that point because, uh, we even, even then, uh, in 1955. It weren't many black men

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still in education, you know, and your chances of doing anything other than teaching school looked very slim. And plus the fact the parents had scuffled so hard to try to get you through high school, but my parents had to pay tuition. We paid tuition to go

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to school and that was just about all the world they could stand and, uh, their vision, uh, wasn't. That far ahead, you know, they kind of felt like if they could get you over that boat. Right. That, that was almost as much as they could do,

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and which was right. And, uh, consequently, we didn't have counselors and, Uh, people in the community who had enough education to just volunteer to encourage you to do that kind of thing. So I was a singer in school and uh there were some scholarships offered to

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the school where I went from Cohoma Junior College and uh me and one of my brothers would have had an opportunity to go had we pursued it, but, uh, neither of us really took any, you know, opportunities at that point to go. OK, one of your

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ambitions in life. Uh, was to become a professional boxer. Yeah, I, I thought I liked boxing because, uh, uh, you know, when I was a youngster, I kind of wore, uh, a buff cut haircut, as they call it, and, uh, buff cut? Well, you know, I

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had long curly hair. Uh-huh. And a full face and, uh, somebody told me I kind of favored Joe Louis, and, uh, I guess that was enough incentive. I, uh, wanted to, uh, I felt that boxing was attractive, uh, at the time. Uh, and so, but I

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never did pursue that either. I just boxed, you know, at school all the time. But never did really go into it in such thing as Golden Gloves or anything like that. Never pursued to that distance. And, uh, of course, that was just about it. Again, I,

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I guess the good Lord knew what my ultimately what my future would be, so. I didn't work on too many things. OK, now you, uh, um, your first, well, I, I don't know if this is, when you began working, Uh, at the luggage company in 1955,

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was that your first job? That was my first. What did you do? Uh what kind of what we call a public job at the time. Uh, I had worked at a grocery store, you know, part-time while in high school, a few, you know, there in the

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little city that was, uh, from my home. And other than that, we, I started working out by the day, however, at 9 years old sometime, because then, uh, they didn't have, uh, cotton picking machines and they didn't have all of these chemicals to control, control the

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growth of grass and weeds and, and, and farm, uh, processes. So they hired people to chop cotton and corn and all that kind of stuff. And basically from 9 years old on up I bought almost everything I wore for in the future by working out and

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uh strangely as it might seem, I have worked for $1 a day, 10 hours a day for $1 you know, like, uh I actually have worked for 10 cents an hour uh in my lifetime and and many times for, for $2 a day and then we

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pick cotton out. So I had worked out and knew the process of doing it, however, and, and, and as much as farming. But it was the first job, a full-time job that I really secured after high school. I had planned to, uh, go to college and,

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uh, you know, but I didn't make it. I didn't pursue the scholarship as you've seen, because I had no way of doing it, you know. Um. You didn't have the clothes. You didn't have. Nothing, you know, to deal with. And so I went to work for

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the luggage factory. Uh, in Memphis and, and, and consequently I moved to Memphis at that time to start living with one of my sisters. And I worked there and went back to Mississippi on weekends to church and things like that for many years to come because

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my parents still was there. And so, uh, that job, we made luggage, you know, we made luggage from start to finish in that company. The, uh, I worked there a year and then did decide to go to school. One of the new principals who came into

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the public, uh, school system. Was an alumni of, of the, um, MMI College in Holly Springs, Mississippi, which was called the Mississippi Industrial College that end. And uh so he began to encourage us to go to school and, and made provisions for me to get a

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scholarship to MI which I took advantage of. However, I was already sick, I think, when I went, I had, uh, probably ruptured a disc on my spine. Um-hum. Uh, and so when I went to school, I stayed about three weeks at the time, and, uh, I

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got rather sick and had to come home from school. And so when I got up, well, I kind of stayed in the hospital 30 some days, uh, And had been down sick, um, two or three weeks at home before I went to the hospital and had

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accumulated the kind of hospital bills and doctor bills and things, which kind of merited not going on to work. So I went back to the luggage factory from there. Um. And as you probably see in, uh, the outline there. Um-hum. That I kind of was promoted,

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uh, to, uh, a department, uh, supervisor. Uh, foreman, whatever it might be called, and I worked there, you know, uh, until some years when I left and went to, uh, Chicago, I believe, for a while. OK. Let me ask you this. Have you ever been in

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the military? No, I haven't. You were not in the military. OK, moving on, uh I passed, however, for military service, but, uh, when I got the age to do it, it was during, uh, the period right after the Korean conflict. And uh I was too young

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to go doing the Korean thing. And when they, uh, when I went to the service to be examined and all, I was, uh, had gotten married and I passed to go to the army and all, you know, physically. However, I didn't go because they weren't calling,

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uh, you know, married men at the time because there wasn't a war. And plus the fact my wife was pregnant, so they just didn't, it was peace time and they didn't draft, you know, men or women. OK, uh, can you give me some information on your

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wife? Where is she from? Well, actually, my wife is from Soda County, Mississippi too. Um-hum. And, uh, I knew her kind of as a child and, because she lived in another community in, around the church that was called Dean's Hill. So, uh, I kind of knew

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her from, I guess, when she was 10 or something like that, but, uh, we never did have no ideas of, uh, going to, uh, Get mad at anything. Reverend Backus, according to your autobiography, you accepted Christ at the age of 11. What was your thinking at

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that time? What, what was it because, you know, so many children now will, uh, say, well, I went and joined cause Johnny went and joined. Well, um, But we didn't have that problem, you know, um, We lived in a community where they had revival once a

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year at our local church. And uh as funny as it might sound, I was a grown man, I was told before I ever seen anybody John Church on Sunday morning. Uh, in our community, you just joined church during revival, you know, uh, you know, so they

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had a Mona's Ba they called at that time where all the seekers and people who was unsaved came there and you sat there and they preached to you and sung and, you know, offered prayer for you and we went through the process of, um, of, uh,

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lingering I guess until we were kind of sure that we felt some real, uh. Changed in our lives by the action of the Holy Spirit. So wasn't no such thing as us walking off of the Moors bench getting a preaching out of a hand or getting

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up in the back of the church. It was one of them things where Uh, our people had more of a, an emotional concept. Of religion and something had to happen to you. You had to cry or, uh, you know, or shout or something like that as

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a sign of, of conversion, you know, of, of, of the perception of the Holy Spirit. Which I don't all the way criticize even in. Uh, you know, with my morning thinking. Uh, Mona's Bank. So, uh, I went when I was 10 and, uh, it's still saying

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I didn't get nothing, I guess that's what we call it. I stayed on Mona's Bank 5 days, you know, and nights, uh, during the first year and then nothing happened that convinced me that the Lord had touched my life. So I went back the next year

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and, uh, on Wednesday of that week I, you know, was very moved, uh. To that the Lord had, you know, touched me and I accepted Christ as my savior even though I was singing in the church already and had been religious-minded all my life. And it

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was from that point and as a result of it, of course, I have never in, you know, the 27 or 28 years, 27 years of being a member of the church, I suppose I probably have missed church on a Sunday. Uh, 15 times in, uh, in

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30 years at least. Let's go back a minute. You said touched you, touched you how? Well, uh, you know, you felt the, the, uh, presence of the, of the Holy Spirit in your life. Well, did you cry? Well, sure, you know, uh, I, I have to

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admit, however, that part of it was a traditional thing and I think it was a good traditional thing. Um-hum. That it was just acceptable for you to do this. Yeah, it was acceptable for you to do that. In fact, you weren't accepted if you didn't do

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it, you know, people didn't believe nothing had happened to you if you didn't show some kind of outward sign of, of, uh, the presence of the Lord in your life, which is not all the way bad. I, I am concerned that when a man repents and

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decides that he's going to accept Christ as the person savior in his life, that there has got to be some kind of, uh, there should be to me some kind of change made in a man's feeling because repentance generally brings about tears or some kind of

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emotional thing. In real life, if you actually do it, you know, I think the most effective repentance I've ever done, you know, would be with tears sometime, you know, you see the child who get very sorry about something he's done, you know, that hurt his parents

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and, you know, you sometimes show this. And so we came out, as you know, of course, you well know yourself, emotional. Uh, Christian, you know, religious background, all blacks have. And, uh, I thank the Lord that I did. I certainly would hate to go any other

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way, you know. OK, let me ask you this. Um, At, OK, wait, I'll ask you that later. I'm, I'm, I was a little ahead of myself. OK, at 17. At 13 you were the president and the director of the church choir and that you were vocally

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you are talented in singing. Can you tell me, uh. What is your favorite spiritual? Or just some hymn, hymn period. Yeah, well, uh, uh, really there are a lot of songs that's really my favorite. It's hard for me to, I like singing, you know, rather well,

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and, uh, there are a lot of songs that I, I, I like quite a bit. However, There's a, there's a hymn that's called Father, I Stretch My Hand to Thee. That is really, uh, a real, real favorite, uh, hymn of my life. When I was a

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child, I, of course, loved to hear, uh, the people sing, uh, I love the Lord. He heard my cry, which is another meet up type hymn that would be given out. I remember singing in the church, remember when they had the choirs made up where you

00:31:11.660 - 00:31:27.099

sung notes, you know, you wouldn't know anything about it. But they sung notes. I never did learn to sing notes. I was too young, but I was a singer from the time I was about 7 years old on up, started singing solos in church and things

00:31:27.099 - 00:31:46.709

like that. So, uh, it was even from my childhood somehow or another. I automatically became leader of what I became a part of, and some people think it's because you push it, push it, but it's not always like that. Um, I had a quartet, me and

00:31:46.709 - 00:32:07.060

my brothers called the Backus Brothers, and two of them were older than myself, and one, we had one friend and one of the boys was next to me. And automatically without my ever being elected as manager by ah Voice of sentiment, officially. My brothers never made

00:32:07.060 - 00:32:21.719

decisions, you know, about the quartet group. They generally would tell the people to talk to me if they wanted us to come and sing or automatically, you know, I became the, you know, head of it. So I was, became president of the choir at a very

00:32:21.719 - 00:32:36.150

young age and consequently of people who was 35, 40 years old and 50 as well as the young people who was in it, and I directed the choir and acted as president. And, uh, uh, and just, you know, directed the choir and things like that. At

00:32:36.150 - 00:32:52.839

the time I was, I think that I was, uh, Real, real effective singer in my teenage life. Probably much more than that. Would you sing I was highly relieved. Or just the phrase, just two lines or something, and it came from me. I, Just too, just

00:32:52.839 - 00:33:08.520

too much, anything, just too much. I want you to stop. You can't hardly believe it's prove that I'm bashful as far. No, I sure can't. I sure. Well, you want me to turn my head? No, that wouldn't really. Well, come on. Anytime. But we, uh, you

00:33:08.520 - 00:33:22.040

know, I, I've loved to sing most of my life and, uh, we, we used to, you know, we had, uh, uh, songs like I used to sing hymns when I was a boy. And like I say, one of the favorites was, you know, you know, it

00:33:22.040 - 00:33:35.829

kind of went like this. I love the Lord, you heard me cry. Uh, you know, and stuff like that. Oh yeah, uh-huh. OK, so, uh, in addition to it though, when we got to the choir, uh, when I first started singing, we didn't have no pianos

00:33:35.829 - 00:33:53.760

in church in Orleans like that, so we even had a choir a cappella. Let me ask you this too. Did your father or your mother? Neither one of them. In fact, my mother declared until her, you know, death that she wanted to sing. And never could.

00:33:54.270 - 00:34:12.610

And as a result of it, she prayed to the Lord that even though she didn't have the gift, That uh that that gift would be passed on to her children. And as a result of it, not knowing anybody now the background, historical background of our family

00:34:12.610 - 00:34:34.830

that could sing. Uh, 14 children that she birthed to my father. Almost all of them had good voices, so apparently it was uh an answered prayer, you know, she declared that she prayed to God. So, uh, most of the kids have been very effective singers. All

00:34:34.830 - 00:34:56.250

of them could sing some. But some 5 or 6 of, of us at one time or another were, I think, very good sing. OK, now in March of 1963 you were accepting the call into the gospel ministry. Were you still a member of the same church

00:34:56.250 - 00:35:19.770

or? Uh, no, I had, I, I changed churches I guess, uh. When I was about 22 or 23, something like that. I've moved my membership to the church in Memphis, Shady Grove Baptist Church. However, which also is probably in, in, uh, I was very, very forward

00:35:19.770 - 00:35:36.580

in church to the point that I was the first deacon probably in our home church that was ever crowned or ordained as a deacon at the age of 1718 years old. And I served on the deacon board with my father and, and, uh, many others. And

00:35:36.580 - 00:35:53.629

so when I changed my membership to the church in Memphis, uh, I think it must have been, I must have kept my membership there until I was about 24 or rather than 23. And immediately after I did, they, uh, asked me to become a part of

00:35:53.629 - 00:36:10.530

the deacon board there. At that age, and I immediately became chairman of the deacon board as the youngest fellow in the Sherry Grove Baptist Church there in Memphis. Uh, and so, uh, I had remained basically, uh, a member of the Rise Sun Baptist Church, even though

00:36:10.530 - 00:36:24.810

I'd been living in Memphis, but it wasn't but a 15 to 20 minute drive. So we went back home to church because we, you know, had a car and all. And it was in Memphis where I did accept my call. However, I, I was knowledgeable of

00:36:24.810 - 00:36:45.550

the fact that I had, uh, had to call into the ministry at the age of about 17. OK, well, Reverend Maus, what happened from this point? Well, after being called into the ministry, uh, I preached my what they call trial sermon, I believe Thursday Sunday night

00:36:45.550 - 00:37:05.929

in March in '64, 63 and uh I was called later to the Mount Pisgah Baptist Church and the, and the Hammond Grove Baptist Church. Mount Pisgah was in Olive Branch, Mississippi. And Hammond Rove was in Arlington, Tennessee, and the reason why that I pastored both of

00:37:05.929 - 00:37:24.729

those churches simultaneously were that they were churches who, one had services on 1st and 3rd Sundays and another one on 2nd and 4th Sundays, so I pastor, uh, them, you know, together. And you were how old? I was, uh, at 26 at this time. I was

00:37:24.729 - 00:37:44.500

called to those churches at the age of 26. Um, yeah, 26, I'm sure I was, I was approaching my 27th birthday. What, uh, besides congregation there, what were, my first congregation was the Olive Branch Baptist Church in, in, in Olive Branch in Olive Branch, Mississippi. The

00:37:44.500 - 00:38:03.899

Mount Pearce, I'm sorry, a Baptist Church in Orange, Mississippi. And I would imagine the first congregation I passed would probably had 50 members, 55. OK, now you have the pastorates. Is that the correct pronunciation? Were terminated in December 1966. I probably should have, uh, said I

00:38:03.899 - 00:38:23.439

resigned the churches in, uh, 1966 in December. To accept a call to, uh, the New Life Baptist Church in Helena, Arkansas. OK, by doing this, were you going, moving up, so to speak? Yeah, I moved from Memphis at that time, in March of that year to

00:38:23.479 - 00:38:47.370

Helena, Arkansas, where I pasted one full time church for some, uh, 5 years after that time. And during my stay in Helena, Arkansas was probably, The most enchanting and rewarding time of my early ministry by far. Because so many things happened. I started back to school,

00:38:47.459 - 00:39:02.389

went back to college after I got to Helena. I pastored a rather good church. Uh, it was in the, uh, pressure point of the civil rights movements. It was during that period when, Uh, I studied when I first went there. In fact, the first thing I

00:39:02.389 - 00:39:22.030

did was I got back in school and I started the Phillips County Junior College, uh, there in Helena and with most of my, uh, work being done in the social studies as, uh, much as I possibly could. Later, uh, after being in Helena for a little

00:39:22.030 - 00:39:40.870

over a year. I ran for the state legislature probably as the first black in that part of the state that had run for the legislature in some 100 years of the state's history. Uh, there was a real political sellout and it is interesting as to the

00:39:40.870 - 00:39:59.370

story behind that. I uh was uh approached by some uh blacks in the community to run for the legislature because I was a young, uh, pastor who had just come to the community and, uh, probably would have some influence, however. It was not for the purpose

00:39:59.370 - 00:40:16.409

of my win in the legislative seat. It was because of the fact that, uh, the uh Democratic Party there was fairly sick of, uh, Winthrop Rockefeller as governor. So, uh, some of them approached some blacks to give me a run for the simple reason they hoped

00:40:16.409 - 00:40:37.060

that they would be able to give me the influence voters registration and influence all of the blacks who would be supporting me to support whatever candidate. That the Democratic Party come out with there on the local level what we call the machine politicians of that district

00:40:37.580 - 00:40:53.389

and I did run for the legislature however when I wasn't in on the plan. And I didn't know that was the plot, you know, so, uh, I, I was an independent. I did not, uh, want to support the candidate that the political machine had told the

00:40:53.389 - 00:41:11.489

blacks that they wanted us in dark. And so I, at that time, however, lost the support of the blacks. It was done because they was really being manipulated by, by, uh, white situation. Um, but I did run and, uh, came out pretty well in the primary

00:41:11.989 - 00:41:33.250

and, uh, Right following that, that gave me some credibility in the community, some strong credibility, plus I had a very progressive pastor. And later I went to, uh, was recommended to as a Ford fellow in to a school in Chicago at the time which was called

00:41:33.250 - 00:41:54.610

the Urban Training Center for Christian Mission. And that was why I passed it in Hellas for 3 or 4 months, I, uh, flew to Chicago and back every week and sometime, uh, during the week. To attend a training school there whose primary interest was to acquaint,

00:41:54.629 - 00:42:14.040

uh, community leadership, both white and black pastors and white and black leaders, uh, with the Christian ministry being more than just a pulpit type, uh, preaching thing. And the Urban Training Center was a very, very good type school that the whole purpose of it was to

00:42:14.040 - 00:42:35.280

undo your tone thinking and to redo your mind into a more relevant type ministry. Ah, they taught us about all political machines and things like that so that you could very easily identify things on a local level that would show you what was actually going on

00:42:35.280 - 00:42:52.979

within the structure. It was a very uh good experience and I think made an unlimited contribution to my life. It was following that that then I kind of got into the civil rights movements there. uh, uh, the people began to call me. I, I became the,

00:42:52.989 - 00:43:13.399

uh, uh, you know, the little deliverer to some degree for the remainder of my time and so we called, uh, we, I led an organization that it was called the. Uh, Committee for Concerned Citizens of Phillips County, where we boycotted one town for 400, 4, for

00:43:13.399 - 00:43:27.560

4 months and closed out a considerable amount of white businesses and had a very effective boycott, and it was during that period when I had some 3 or 4 threats on my life and. Well, what about the police during this time? Did they ever. Uh, the

00:43:27.560 - 00:43:43.389

police, uh, the reason behind this was the police had shot a black guy in jail, handcuffed. And, uh, so we shot him and he had handcuffs on him. Yeah, you know, in jail. So we, uh, put the pressure on the city to fire them. However, the

00:43:43.389 - 00:43:59.719

city chose not to do it at first and they thought that, you know, we were just using a lot of rhetoric and actually was not going to carry out our plans. So I became the executive director of that movement. And plotted the plans by which we

00:43:59.719 - 00:44:14.899

would get that done and then a lot of the teaching that I have received and exposure in the urban Training Center was able to be put into use in that community and I think it was just like having gone to law school, you know, and ah

00:44:15.280 - 00:44:31.969

you got as much out of it in 3 or 4 months look like as you would have in years and years of study otherwise. And That led to many things. We had a very successful boycott. Uh, the blacks there supported the movement. Uh, they gave me

00:44:31.969 - 00:44:50.370

their, uh, you know, support 100%, and we had a very effective movement. It was during that period that I became well acquainted with Governor Winthrop Rockefeller of Arkansas, who was a very good governor who believed in humanity beyond a shadow of doubt, irrespectable, uh, of their

00:44:50.370 - 00:45:12.729

color. Uh, it was also during that period of time after that that I was appointed by President Nixon to serve on the Arkansas Advisory Committee on Education, uh, because of the unitization of the schools in the state. Ah, the president selected some 14 members of Arkansas,

00:45:12.850 - 00:45:38.560

which was primarily made up of college presidents, ah, ah, bank presidents. many other people of that nature. And we, uh, were able to Our purpose was to serve as helping to ease the Uh, pain. I've integrating the schools throughout the state of Arkansas. So mostly it

00:45:38.560 - 00:45:55.790

was big shot lawyers, politicians, college presidents and things. I think I was the only, uh, black minister that was appointed and I was on a committee of 14, and I think there was 3, blacks on the committee. I'd like to make note, I'd like to make

00:45:55.790 - 00:46:18.159

note here also that in April of '71 you received the Outstanding Community Service Award uh from Alpha Alpha Kappa Alpha sorority. Now since you've been here in Utah, we, we're discussing uh leading and different uh difficulties since you've been here in Kansas City, Kansas. Uh, you've

00:46:18.159 - 00:46:40.310

ran. Yes, I, uh, I ran for the school board, uh, when I was here about 14 months. Uh, I think got real good community support, especially with my being an alien at the time and, uh, uh, and what they call, uh. Somebody who just come in

00:46:40.310 - 00:46:58.389

from the outside got real good support. However, in the process of running for the school board at first and, and the times following that, I found out the cancer the cancer is a very, very difficult place to get people interested in upgrading the status of, of

00:46:58.389 - 00:47:17.449

the community and especially seemingly black community. There's no cohesiveness in cancer to cancer at all. Everybody seemed to be their own leaders. Uh, nobody's willing to give support to anybody, uh, because of apparently at the risk of upsetting what little situation they might have going on

00:47:17.449 - 00:47:39.919

with themselves. And I found that, uh, Ms. Pruitt is being a very, very, uh, uh, passive. Community very, very, ah, unenthused when it comes down to change in the present situation, and I weep because of the fact that, ah. I just am not uh uh of

00:47:39.919 - 00:47:59.360

the product of a community where blacks will be satisfied with uh they are not really being able to participate in decision making processes of the community at all. And uh we are very lax community, very complacent, and uh I just don't know what anybody can really

00:47:59.360 - 00:48:17.550

do to move it. However, as you probably seen further in reading that I ran again some couple of years later. Think, you know, ran a real good race. However, again, it was one of them things where, uh, both the white and black power structured cancer. The

00:48:17.550 - 00:48:35.199

cancer was basically, uh, against my being elected based upon the fact, uh, that the whites didn't want nobody with, you know, whose mouth would be as loud as mine. Uh, they knew that and, and consequently. Uh, what happens, one of the things that we learned in

00:48:35.199 - 00:48:48.879

the Urban Training Center was to be able to, to learn how to pick out the leadership. And when you pick a black leadership that is going to be able to function on behalf of people in the community, you have to get somebody who might, who might

00:48:48.879 - 00:49:10.879

be poor, but who is independently poor. And, uh, a black Baptist preacher. Is uh primarily the freest fellow there is in the community because they can't squeeze your job, they can't fire you from downtown in most instances and it gives you the freedom to speak. The

00:49:10.879 - 00:49:26.350

Next thing about it is that you got a ready-made power base and uh in the case of our church, I'm talking to 40 or 500 people a week without having to call a meeting. And the system would not want anybody at all who would have the

00:49:26.350 - 00:49:41.949

guts and the gumptions, uh, uh, to be able to really tell the folks what is actually happening to them. So it was kind of a team up thing where the white community, at least in the present school board would have rather anything happen than my getting

00:49:41.949 - 00:50:02.360

elected to the school board because they couldn't handle me. And I found that the blacks, uh, did rally, however, around me pretty strong. I have to admit that the people I could talk to supported my campaign. And uh I think running against big money and big

00:50:02.360 - 00:50:23.199

politics with uh peanuts like I had and was able to get uh over 14,050 votes, you know, over 14,500 votes out of a community. I came in maybe 500 behind the lowest uh person incumbent who won that was running on the slate with the other four

00:50:23.199 - 00:50:37.389

school school board members. I do think that even though we did not win the battle that it might have caused us to win the war, that a lot of good was done. I'm not sure that I want to go through it anymore at all, uh, you

00:50:37.389 - 00:50:54.469

know, the agonizing process of trying to rally people around their basic needs who really don't want no help, see, you know, like who was really satisfied with being where they are. Uh, I, I've concluded that, uh, however, it has not broken my spirit and my will,

00:50:54.590 - 00:51:10.530

but, uh, It has given me a different, uh, viewpoint as to what you can or cannot do in this community. OK, are you still, uh, going to Central Baptist? Yes. Now, now, now this is something that's very interesting to me. Well, you know that of course

00:51:10.530 - 00:51:26.179

the teachers have to go back every so often to get educational requirements. Why are you as a minister? Is it to help you in your own field to make you feel more secure, to make you. Well, uh, actually, actually, Uh, very few people, and I might

00:51:26.179 - 00:51:45.899

share this, uh, you know, with you, very few people have an idea as to the demands, you know, that's being made up on the ministry now, uh, to give competent leadership, uh, to any local church, uh, of, of any magnitude. And most people don't realize that

00:51:45.899 - 00:52:03.699

at this point, in many of the, uh, even though, uh, Baptist churches are, are free and they have their own sovereign body, which means no bishop or state president can say anything about how you know local church is run as long as we, uh, adhere to

00:52:03.699 - 00:52:23.129

the doctrines of the Baptist Church. But in the American Baptist Convention, uh, which is primarily white, the Southern Baptist, uh, convention that is almost. Uh, primarily white, uh, the, the most clergyman at this time. Has to have a college education plus 3 or 4 years of

00:52:23.129 - 00:52:37.649

seminary before they uh uh can be ordained uh that they want to ordain them. However, if a local church goes on and call a man, you know, ain't nothing that the convention can do about it but ordain them. They do not recommend it and, and, uh,

00:52:37.729 - 00:52:54.459

you know, and almost as vehemently against it. That is not the case in the black church as of yet, but we are moving fast in that direction. So I had gone to a religious school in Memphis to some degree. Uh, and then I'd gone to college

00:52:54.459 - 00:53:10.139

even though I didn't get no degree at Phillips College, and since I've been here I've done some study at Ottawa University. I still don't have, you know, a degree in academic, you know, work. But I did go to Central Seminary, which is a graduate school. And

00:53:10.139 - 00:53:28.770

they have made a few exceptions for students like myself as my age and up and so I went to Central to further, uh, my education in the area of the ministry and especially in the area of, uh, biblical theology, so I guess I better understand. Uh,

00:53:28.899 - 00:53:46.860

to, to get some training, uh, extra training in the role of, of, of Christian education so that we can help to adequately process a good educational program in our church. And so it's been a bad process. However, uh, ministers now are being called upon, and all

00:53:46.860 - 00:54:06.899

of us, uh, uh, having invitations to we, we go to seminars and continued education just like teachers now and so most people don't realize it, but, uh, the average minister now who will have, uh, a prominent pastor in most cases. Has, has given much time to

00:54:06.899 - 00:54:24.889

school as a lawyer, doctor or anybody else. People don't put that kind of value on it. And uh they don't pay you in accordance to uh what they pay lawyers and doctors who only have the very same amount of training. I will have gone to school

00:54:24.889 - 00:54:45.949

4 years at centralized, you know, probably will graduate this spring hopefully uh with actually a diploma in biblical theology which is a little different. From what it would be as a graduate student, however, I have to have all the same hours and the same requirement except

00:54:45.949 - 00:55:08.639

for 12 hours. I have to have 48 hours to do it. Uh, the graduate student only has to have 60. I was to get a degree, a master's degree in religious education, uh, a master's degree in. Uh, a master's, uh, uh, degree, what they call M

00:55:09.080 - 00:55:24.560

uh DM as they call it a master's degree in, in, in divinity. And uh so we do actually have to have uh extensive training and if you, you know, if you wanna be able to cope with the times in which we live, I once upon a

00:55:24.560 - 00:55:41.729

time did not feel that uh seminary training was that important to us but I know now you know that it is. You you confront too many things and you have to do too many dimensions of leadership to not be able to do that so uh. We

00:55:41.729 - 00:55:59.050

are continuing evangelism is becoming important and many other areas. We have more, uh, counseling. We got to deal with people on dying and death, divorces, uh, and incidentally, just to share one thing that happened, I never thought I would have to deal with in my ministry.

00:55:59.870 - 00:56:20.090

was a young woman in our church who was raised in a traditional home who was almost opposed to divorce under any circumstances, you know. Uh, a few weeks ago, uh, got very interested in a fellow who had been divorced, very fine fellow. And she hadn't been

00:56:20.090 - 00:56:36.570

married, and so she had the awesome problem of trying to decide. Um-hum. As to whether or not this was going to be totally, uh, religiously unacceptable, uh, to go into a marriage if that, uh, situation based upon biblical teaching. Um. And it basically flowed me to

00:56:36.570 - 00:56:54.360

even have to think about having to deal with such, uh, technical problem, because the Bible won't give you very much help in that area. However, it just so happened I had bought a book from one of our bookstores not long ago that talked about the right

00:56:54.360 - 00:57:17.510

to remarry. That was written by a family, you know, counselor, a marriage counselor, a family guidance specialist who also was a, was an ordained minister and professor of New Testament. Uh, teaching at one of our schools of divinity and, uh, it just happened that book just

00:57:17.510 - 00:57:33.219

came in just right on tape in addition to it that I had taken some, uh, clinical training in marriage counseling and family guidance and but you never think that you have to deal with that, you know, you never think you have to deal with so every

00:57:33.219 - 00:57:42.840

area, you know, alcoholism is becoming very prevalent. Many things. Narcotics. Narcotics, uh, everything you can think of.