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The Black Archives of Mid-America. I'm interviewing Professor Robert Farnsworth, professor of English at the University of Missouri, Kansas City. Today is February 6, 1976. OK, Doctor Kuono, when were you born? In 1929. Which makes you 46 years old. Yes. Um, I'm interested in learning a little

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bit about your childhood, uh, in kind of a case history manner, um. You know, to, to try to determine some of the things which make you the person that you are now. You went to public schools, right? Yes, I went to public schools in Detroit, um.

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Grew up in an. All white neighborhood in a. Relatively, oh, I'd say. Middle class lower middle class neighborhood, uh. Until I went to high school and then I went to a high school that was, uh, had about 10% black students in it. And it was, uh,

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I remember right after. Uh, One of the, one of the most uh. Violent race riots in Detroit in 1943. How did that affect you? It uh. Filled me with a great deal of fear and anticipation at first, having had no experience really in dealing with the.

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Blacks in any very direct sense, uh, but I think I was sort of imbued with the kind of Boy Scout ethics of fairness and what have you, and that those as, as I remember the sort of conflicting emotions that I had when I went to high

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school. Um Most of which really were allayed. Very quickly, uh. When I went to high school, I, uh, I, I was fairly athletic and I, uh, went on the track team quickly, uh, and, uh, had a sensational year as a matter of fact, my first year,

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my freshman year, as a, uh, as a high school student, I, I jumped over 6 ft as a freshman in high school. When, when was that? What? That was in 19 I was. Either the end of 43 or the beginning of 44 because it was the

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winter season. It was an indoor jump. I remember. Well, there weren't, there weren't very many people jumping that high in those days, were there? Not very many. My, my track coach really thought he had an Olympic prospect in me, and, uh, I disappointed him in the

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high jump. I never, I never was able to jump better than that after my first year, as a matter of fact, uh, but it, uh. It was, it was a sort of dramatic year for me, I, uh, because the track team was probably. Oh, I'd say

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70% black in this, in this, you know, in this. integrated high school and the captain of our track team. Was a, uh, Like, um, a senior black, uh. Fellow who was, uh, Um, very popular throughout the high school. As a matter of fact, I think he

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was elected either president or vice president of the senior class. One of these. Really all American boy guys, I mean, you know, he just was so. Everybody liked him, period. And he was very fair, square, and he was a high jumper, and we had one other

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high jumper who was a senior in on our team. Uh, both of whom were black and both of whom were very good. As a matter of fact, we had with the three of us, we really had probably the best black high jumping team in the, in

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the city, no question about it, uh, but, uh, they were both better than I was, uh, and both seniors, and, uh, I remember vividly the, uh. That made it a problem for me to score enough points to win a letter even though I was, I was

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jumping quite well and it came up to the, the last track meet of the year and I needed, uh, I, I've forgotten exactly the number of points, but I needed a certain amount of points to win enough money, points to, uh, to get my letter. And

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for me to win points I had to out jump the whole other team because there are always two guys in my team who were who were able to make 1st and 2nd, you know, uh, but we did, uh, in this case we out jumped the whole

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other team, the other. Team in high jump. I remember the referee coming over to uh. He's captain of our, our track team and this is the last event of the high jump was always the last event of the meet. It was always the climactic event. And

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he came over to him and asked if he wanted uh to jump off for places with the three of us since it didn't make any difference as far as team standings were concerned. And uh I still remember with a kind of warmth that I know that

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that fellow knew that I needed the extra points that I would get from dividing the first three places up rather than than getting third uh to make my, my, uh. Letter and uh he just sort of glanced at me and said no we don't wanna jump

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off so you know I I've always felt uh rather grateful and appreciative uh of that uh it was a sort of nice gesture. Let me go let me go back a few years um. First of all, you know, you said you were from a kind of

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a lower middle class or middle class neighborhood in Detroit. What did your parents do? My father, uh, Early in my childhood my father worked through the uh depression years uh where he could uh mostly at Ford's and sometimes driving taxi uh I had a a great

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uncle who came to live with us um. He was divorced and he had a small ice and coal business and uh uh. My father used to help him when he could too, uh, and then gradually he, uh, he. Became something like a partner to this great

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uncle in this small icy coal business and then when my uncle died, uh, he left the business to my father. Uh, it was a. It's a very small kind of thing for the most part with ups and downs during my own childhood. Uh, I it always

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seemed like my father had a penchant to get into businesses that were ultimately doomed and rice business, you know, was gradually giving way. What you're describing sounds kind of like the, you know, struggling immigrant coming to this country. Are your, are your, were your parents or,

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you know, your grandparents from somewhere else, uh, you know, um. It's well it's uh it's mixed, uh. Through my father's line, as a matter of fact, uh, the Farnsworth family and the Farnsworth name extends all the way back to the, to people coming to this country

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in the 1600s, and we now have a book with a. History of the Farnsworth that could trace my family name all the way uh my family literally all the way back to, uh, see I think it's Ethelred, um, but that's of course just one line, you

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know, that's the name, you know, uh, uh, my mother's, uh, family are German American and she would be 3rd generation American and my mother's. My father's mother is also German American and they would be about 3rd or 4th generation American, uh. But my, the reason that

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you get the impression of it being sort of struggling like an immigrant family, my father's father, uh, ran away and left him and his brothers and sisters in an orphanage. So my father was an adopted child. He came to America, I came to Detroit, I'm sorry,

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from the farm where he was raised at about 17 and did start, start scrambling on his own to, to make it. And did he, you know, run the coal and ice business for the rest of his life as a way? Yes, except that, um. I'd say

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the last 5 or 10 years, I'd say about the last 5 to 10 years of his life. He gradually, he, The ice business of course almost disappeared completely and that just gradually faded out. Uh, he also added fuel oil and shifted over from coal to fuel.

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There was a sort of transition period and he picked up a gas station that he was running for a while and that got simply too much and finally he settled in the last 5-10 years of his life driving a, a fuel oil truck which he owned

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in which he, uh, I don't know quite how to describe it, uh, Uh, he worked with Mobil Oil Company and they, they were on some kind of contract basis, and they gave him customers and sent him out and took care of the billing and so on,

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but he had his own truck and his own hours and he sort of. Worked for them. Well, let me ask you, did he, did your parents, well, first of all, what did your mother do? Was she just a housewife or? Yes, she's just a housewife. She,

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uh, Worked, I think before I came along for a year or two with the telephone company, but otherwise she never worked. Um, you know, to get a PhD like you have. There's a considerable achievement in it, and it takes some kind of motivation. But was there,

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you know, present in your family, the kind of, you know, emphasis towards scholastic achievement that You know, pushed you in that direction. There wasn't much of a push, uh, it was very permissive, and I think my parents were proud of, of, of what I was doing,

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and they were supportive. Uh, I think they were surprised, and I, I was too, frankly, it's not as if I had made up my mind when I was 12 or 14. I'm gonna become a PhD. As a matter of fact, I drifted into it literally. I,

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I, I can remember when I finished high school, uh, I could easily have quit right there, uh. There was some pressure for me to. I was working with my father much of the time, and, and I felt some obligation to, and probably more on my part

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than on his in any way to, uh, sort of work in and take over the business and assume some responsibility with him. Uh, but I didn't really want to do that. I knew that, and I did get a scholarship to the University of Michigan, which was

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just tuition at the time, but it was enough of an encouragement, and my teachers encouraged me to go, and I did. And, uh, I did very well at the University of Michigan. I graduated in 3 years and. And, uh, Phi Beta Kappa and began to get

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more and more interested in literature. I actually started college uh as if I were going to law school. One year of pre-law was enough for me and I, I wanted to be a writer more than anything else. Uh, let me, let me go back just a

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minute to ask you something. You talked about, you know, your experience with You know, being on the track team in high school and the uh The black track and black high jumper who was, you know, kind of, well kind to you, I guess, um. Are there

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other experiences like that, you know, that are. Well, there were some opposite kinds of experiences too, of course, there were, there were, you know, considerable racial tensions in Detroit. And I remember another sort of uh. Experience that I can remember now with some humor, but which

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I, I didn't feel terribly humorous at the time. Our rival high school in Detroit was Northern High School, which was almost completely black, probably 90% or so. And uh um. In track, particularly, this was a pretty keen rivalry, but it was also a rivalry in football.

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And they had a high jumper who was a very short fellow. Uh, he was, uh, I don't know, he probably couldn't, didn't stand more than 5'4 or so, but he was also the, uh, their quarterback in their football team, and he was very fast and very

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popular, and, uh, somehow or other we always seemed to tangle both on football and and in track. He and I were sort of rivals and it was I was very tall for my age at that time and he was very short, you know, so it always

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seemed kind of unfair we had a we had an indoor practice meet the last practice meet for the season at Northern High School. And it was a very close meet and it was only northern high school students in the audience because it was not a big

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thing, regular meat or anything. And uh came down again to the, the last, uh, the high jump is the deciding jump, deciding of the meet, deciding event of the meet, and I out jumped him and we won the meet and it was very unpopular with the

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audience and uh we didn't think too much of it. We all went down to, uh, it was a practice meet, you know, and so on. Well, our team went down to the locker room and showered and our track coach went down with us and he was

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just sort of ordinary happy and he took off. And about the time we finished showering and uh the first member of our team started to walk outside, there was a crowd of of students outside waiting for us. And uh they made it very clear that they

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were waiting with the uh violence in mind. And uh uh so we were suddenly rather scared. Uh, and we didn't quite know what to do. They'd thrown some rocks or something. Well, I think they, they sort of grabbed it the first guy who walked out, and

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he was quick enough, so he got back in and we just held the door and then, uh, and I think one of them really got, got sort of mauled around a bit. Uh, anyway, uh, all that I remember is we were all trying to figure out

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how in the hell to get out of there and about 3 of us, uh, started wandering through the building and we went down into the basement and found the, uh, the, uh. Way around through the basement through the furnace area and came up at the other

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end of the high school and took a quick look around and saw there was nobody in sight and ran like hell. That sounds like my high school athletic. Uh, you know, so there were things like that that I experienced too, often racial feelings and so on.

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Um So you, so you have a kind of, you know, at least those two things point to a kind of mixed relationship, you know, uh, uh, racial, you know, uh, but this, this is interesting to me, uh, you know, 1943, right, is when you were in

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high school, right, from 1943 to 1947, OK. That's before the Supreme Court Brown decision. OK, no. I'm interested in, you know, um. How it happens that you were going to school, you know, where there were blacks and, you know, the kind of situation that was, you

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know, that was happening at the time in Michigan, you know, for, for, for that to occur. Well, um. The uh. I, I lived in a in the. On a borderline of two, the, the, uh, I was in Detroit, of course, and Detroit was divided up into,

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you know, as, as here there were sort of neighborhood patterns for different high schools or neighborhood boundaries for different high schools. I lived on a kind of borderline, uh, most of the students that graduated from the grade school that I went to, uh, would go to.

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Denbigh, which was a white high school probably comparable here to Southwest something like that, um, and if I had wanted to, I think I could have. Have gone there although officially I was in the boundary for for Pershing which is like what Southeast used to be

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in comparison to Southwest uh you know uh in terms of racial makeup and Pershing was in an area that was uh gradually becoming integrated I think the. Similar patterns here but probably moving much slower at that point, although in Detroit. You know, that you have much

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more dra dramatic immigrations of people than we do here, I think, because of the auto industry and so on, uh. And as I say, we had about 10% black in that school. There was, uh, Uh, I don't know, I, I took it for granted. That's the

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way it was supposed to be. I don't remember there being any, you know, there are any court decisions or anything like that, uh, um, mandating me. So, so there, you know, actually in Michigan, the whole integration process has started even before the Brown. versus Topeka school

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board decisions, uh, although again there certainly was, uh, de facto segregation in terms of neighborhoods in many ways, incidentally that I mentioned track, uh. Uh One of my classmates was the daughter of um Jesse Owens uh who lived near our high school and who would who

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came over. Jesse Owens came over, yes, he used to, well, he used to come over to our track. Uh, team and it must have been exciting for, for, you know, aspiring track stars. He was, he, I always remember partic particular warmth and help he gave me

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in the, in the broad jump that actually became my strongest event by the time I was a senior. You know, while we're talking about Jesse Owens, what kind of feelings did you have, you know, uh, you know, when he was in the Olympics, Jesse Owens was

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in the Olympics and the kind of treatment that he got by Hitler and the Germans during the Olympics. Well, if I remember correctly, that was the 36 Olympics and I was 7 years old. I don't think I really knew very much about it at that time.

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Uh, although I, you know, I, I said I knew him. When he, uh, this was 40, Well, I probably, he, I don't think I knew him until I was about the junior or senior year of high school, was with him in 46 or 47. So that

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was like 1210 years after that event. Uh, did he ever talk about that or no? Um. I didn't know him that well. We didn't really have many. You know, personal talks or anything of that sort, but he was, he came over and he would help. He,

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he would run the hurdles occasionally and he would give people pointers and some members of our team pointers on that, and as I say, he helped me with my broad show. Mm, um, you know, you said you just started the law school. And you changed your

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mind and you wanted to write. What was the, you know, the cause of that kind of change? It's a little complicated. I, um, I had a high school. Teacher who was a kind of intellectual father, I suppose he was very influential. He was a He was

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kind of a renegade, uh, he was an older man who, uh, was an atheist, explicitly so, and, and he was very efficient and very fair and very bright. And most of the rest of the faculty sort of saw him as the radical, you know, uh, but

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he encouraged me and the, the guy who became my brother-in-law, uh, uh, who was a good friend of mine, uh, to go to the great books clubs, and we'd go with him and we'd sit around and talk about ideas a lot and When I graduated with

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high school, I was sort of filled with ideas about ideas. As a matter of fact, I thought of literature at that time with a little bit of. Condescension and uh slight disapproval uh if that was bias. I wanted great ideas. I wanted, you know, essays, great

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books, that sort of thing and so I went to Michigan. The first thing that happened to me in an English class was that they uh took me out of the regular English class after a couple of essays and put me in a special class. Which was

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taught by a man who was really there to, to uh To enter the Hopwoods, Glendon Swarthau was his name. Hopwoods is the is the poetry contest, right? Well, it's more than poetry, it's poetry, fiction, drama. It's creative writing awards. But, but, but, but the Hopwood refers

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specifically to the context of the University of Michigan. Yes, it's, uh, uh, it was money left by Avery Hopwood, who was a playwright who made money off of popular plays, the best known play of which was Getting Gertie's Garters. And he left this money, you know,

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to, uh, to, uh, give out annual creative writing awards at Michigan, and they're quite lucrative, and they, they attract a lot of people. Clendon Swarout has since come up, gone on to become a fairly well-known novelist. He wrote several novels that have made it big in

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the movies. Uh, they came to Cordura was one of his friends, he's not, you know, not great, but he, he was my freshman English teacher. And uh After he really ran that freshman English course as if it were a creative writing class, he told me very

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explicitly after I wrote a couple of essays, he didn't want me to write any more essays. He wanted me to write some short stories or poetry. And why was he saying that? Well, he said that it was an emphasis of he said that he knew I

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could write an essay, and I didn't have to prove that anymore. And, uh, so he's wanted me to try something different and, uh. And I really was reluctant. I was sort of backed into that. I didn't want to. And yet when I did, and I think

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I wrote some very bad short stories but very heavy on ideas, sort of allegorical kind of things, uh, but he sort of encouraged me and I got more and more fascinated with that at the time and, uh, sort of. Quite privately being challenged by it and

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I became more and more interested in literature through that. And uh it caused me well I was disillusioned with the people I met who were going into law and uh as an undergraduate what was your major English you were majoring in English and you were, you

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know, engaging yourself in, you know, the literature and the language and everything, um, all throughout your college years and then decided to go to law school for to make money. I, I, I went to college with the idea of going into law, but I, I dropped

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that after my freshman year. I see you didn't go, you didn't even start, no, I see. OK. Um, So you, you, you, you know, that's, uh, Michigan and you got a degree and then you went to the University of Connecticut. I was, I was in the

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honors program at Michigan and, uh. When I was getting ready to graduate, uh, realizing I had to make a living somehow, and I was looking around to see whether I wanted to teach or, or go on to graduate school or what, and, uh. In the small

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honors program, we got an invitation from the. Uh, chairman of the English department at the University of Connecticut where they were, they were just beginning a graduate program and he was a, a Michigan graduate knew the honors program. He invited people to apply for teaching fellowships

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out there. And I did and I was successful and so then I was really led on by a, a scholarship to my, my master's work and I went out there then to teach part time and to do my MA and my wife. was finished, had just

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finished her 2nd year when I finished my BA and she went with me to. To her BA at the University of Connecticut. OK, so you went from Michigan University of Connecticut straight into University of Connecticut after Michigan. Got your master's at University of Connecticut and then

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you ended up getting a PhD from Tulane, right? Right, OK, again, I was handed on by Michigan people and that seemed to be a threat. As a matter of fact, I came here partly for that reason too, uh. When I finished my degree at Tulane, the

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chairman of the English department here was Roman King, and he, he was a Michigan graduate. He had written to the chairman of the department at Tulane, who was a Michigan graduate and asked for, uh, any recommendations of people. They were looking for someone, and that's how

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I applied for the job. Well, let me, let me ask you, you know, the only thing I can remember about Chile is they used to have good football teams, you know. Boy, that's a long memory. If they have, they haven't had, well, I guess they have

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fairly recently, I guess, I guess when I went there it was terrible. I guess when I was a kid though, you know, it seems like the 50s or so that they were playing in bowl games and stuff. No. Uh, Well I was there, let's say from

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52 to. 57 was one year out uh from 55 to 56, I was at, in the year 55 956, I was at the University of Kentucky in a full-time job, but otherwise I was up to my we never had much of a football team. I know

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it was it. Uh, there were some years when they'd break even, but, but they certainly were not big in the, in the bowl games, but they did have the Sugar Bowl is right at Tulane. OK, maybe that's what's going on, because I, it sticks in my

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mind, you know, I used to play football and, and Tulane sticks in my mind, but I never even knew where it was, you know, I just remember Tulane, but it's, it's, it's, it's in the South, right? It's in New Orleans, OK, right in the city of

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New Orleans, OK. So, You've gone to Michigan University of Connecticut. Have your PhD, Phi Beta Kappa, right, from Michigan, from, from Michigan, Phi Beta Kappa, that, that to Connecticut. I don't, well, maybe they did, but you know, graduate degrees, you don't usually don't get 5. That's

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an undergraduate, I see. Um So you, you got your PhD now, and that's what year? I finished the PhD in '57. Mhm. Um, And I, when, but when did you come here? You came to the city in '60. I went from Tulane to uh Wayne State

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University in Detroit. And I guess that something happened right there that's kind of important in terms of my later involvement in core and so on. No, I went down to the south like a lot of uh. Yankees with something of a chip on my shoulder in

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particular certain kind of ideas about. The South and race. Uh, and I went down as a very aggressive liberal, and I can remember at Tulane. Uh, sort of working out certain. Liberal feelings, I suppose, by challenging my students. To write themes trying to imagine they were

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black and so on and uh bringing up questions of integration all the time. Uh, but what, but what brought you to that point, you know? Was it your reading or your experience was, it was, it was a vague kind of liberal poli, uh, political ideas. Uh,

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it certainly, you know, despite my experience in high school with blacks, I really never got to know much about black people in any very personal or historical sense at that point. Uh, and, uh. When I went to the South, it was only really I was, I

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think I was proving my, you know, raising those issues to sort of prove my liberalism and to dissociate myself from what I thought of as a sort of shameful history of the South more than really any very healthy. And for no, The excuse was that the

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Tulane's hands were were tied by the terms of the will of Paul Tulane, who at the endowment, uh, that, uh, it expressly forbid any such thing. I don't remember the exact terms, but the implication was that if Tulane did integrate, uh, that they would lose the

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use of most of these endowment funds. Which was really very ironic at the time because there were blacks at Tulane who were South American. just when you wanted to make the policy, make it real policy, you know, so to bring American blacks in, you got into

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that kind of difficulty. Uh, so you're in the, you know, you're in the south and something is starting to happen there, you know. And all of that is in, you know, and you know your experience with high school and whatnot. You know the kind of. I

00:31:19.079 - 00:31:38.280

guess development, you know, into a to a kind of liberal is. Well, probably what made me a liberal more than questions of race, however, the sort of burning political issue for me at that time was Joe McCarthy. a certain kind if you're going to, if you

00:31:38.280 - 00:31:53.819

dislike McCarthy, you're also going to like certain other dislike certain other kind of things in a kind of. Cognitive makeup or something. But that was the thing I think I felt most about, you know, maybe most strongly at the time and feared most and so on,

00:31:54.560 - 00:32:11.219

um. The race seemed in a way to sort of come along with it, and I, I don't, I really, you know, as I look back at that experience. I felt like I was um. Really not into it very much at all. I just had these sort

00:32:11.219 - 00:32:30.079

of superficial liberal feelings about it. And what I was probably going to try to explain is what happened, what was most dramatic is when I went from Tulane to Wayne State University in a sense going home. Wayne is in Detroit. And my first job and Wayne

00:32:30.079 - 00:32:54.630

State is a very different kind of university than. Uh, Tulane. Um, When I went into the cafeteria at Wayne State, I'd say they probably had about 40% black students. And I had a very clear physical reaction against the presence of black students in the cafeteria where

00:32:54.630 - 00:33:12.750

I was, and it, it shocked me. My own reaction shocked me. And I realized that in many ways I had been sort of brainwashed or body washed or however you want to do it by the whole patterns of segregation in the South against my sort of

00:33:12.750 - 00:33:28.709

conscious beliefs, you know, that I that it was a sort of emotional reaction. Really, really shook me up in some sense, and I think I, I can really remember then when I started to get very curious about my own feelings about race and began to read

00:33:28.709 - 00:33:45.400

more and to start talking to people about race. So I think that's really where my sort of contemporary. Feelings started to grow in a very conscious and deliberate sense and when I began to feel strongly about racial things. What kind of things, you know, did you

00:33:45.400 - 00:33:59.900

read or, or, you know, even I might even ask you, you know, if there is some book about race that had, you know, more influence on you than any other way of that book? Well, I think at the time the book that, that, uh, sort of.

00:34:00.859 - 00:34:15.780

Seemed to mean a lot to me was Gunnar Myrdahl's The American Dilemma Dilemma. That was one of the first things that I read, uh, and I, you know, I, I, it just sort of spread out, uh, a lot of problems for me and uh sensitized me

00:34:15.780 - 00:34:34.208

to the. To some of the dimensions of of uh. Of the racial problem that I hadn't even thought of at all. And that I to to what extent? I know a little bit about Murdo's book. I, I read part of it something doing, well, I guess

00:34:34.208 - 00:34:54.770

it, it, it is. It, it had, the thing that made, Uh. Well, there are two things I think about it. One, you know, I, I simply hadn't thought about a lot of things that were pertinent in the data. I remember, for instance, Uh. He he's making

00:34:54.770 - 00:35:16.100

a point about how uh. Racial prejudice really gets imbued even in black people and there was a 11 of the. People are. Did a survey of what, what of how blacks thought about God and how many of them thought that God was white, for instance, you

00:35:16.100 - 00:35:30.280

know, that kind of thing. So you're talking about that a certain kind of self denigration yeah, well it was that kind of information that, you know, just hadn't even occurred to me before. But then I think in terms of the larger pattern of the book, the

00:35:30.280 - 00:35:47.399

thing that has stuck with me. And which still seems to me fairly meaningful and this, this may be uh getting us into an argument like out of our class, you know, that, that the point that Myrdahl made about the black American community being in some sense.

00:35:47.989 - 00:36:08.000

Uh, a kind of American archetype in extremists, you know, that, that in a sense black Americans are more Americans than anybody and, and who they are in a way an exaggeration of various American patterns. And that, that made a lot of sense and became, in a

00:36:08.000 - 00:36:26.250

sense, uh, something that I've, I've. I've seen and felt in many other ways since. Yeah, I don't, I don't, uh, really disagree with you at all. As a matter of fact, I, but, but I do think, um, You know that you can identify certain kind of

00:36:26.250 - 00:36:47.620

blacks, you know. Some blacks are more American than Americans and some blacks are. Different in Yeah, I mean, you know, it seems like that's, that's the natural kind of offshoot of, of oppression, you know, to, to, uh, idolize, uh, or, uh, imitate, you know, uh. You

00:36:47.620 - 00:37:09.320

know, the, the majority of the standard, you know. But. You know, so you, you, you read Gunner Mir though, he's saying these things, you know. I, I, there was um one student at Wayne State, a student of mine at Wayne State University whom I Got to

00:37:09.320 - 00:37:27.479

know quite well, a very, very attractive young woman, as a matter of fact, who, uh, uh, kind of an amusing experience. So I got to know her. She was doing relatively middle work in my classes, a C student, uh, not terribly impressive one way or another.

00:37:27.560 - 00:37:44.050

And again, I think my early reaction was quite wrong and kind of foolish. I felt very sorry for her, you know, but she was black. She was black, uh. But I, you know, my stereotype of blacks were all poor people who, you know, and so on.

00:37:44.409 - 00:37:57.739

And uh, she stayed and did, did a makeup scene one time late in the afternoon. And so I waited for her and she did this makeup thing and as we walked out of the building, I asked her where she lived and could I give her a

00:37:57.739 - 00:38:17.899

lift and uh She said yes, and so I took her home, which was not very far out of my way to my home. And she lived on a, a street which I as a child, uh, used to drive by, uh, and look at all these beautiful

00:38:17.899 - 00:38:35.370

homes and want to live in. Uh, she lived in a, uh, what used to be the very nicest area of Detroit. Well, she lived next to Mrs. Kresge from Cres Cress, yeah, yeah, you know, so it's, you know, obviously she had all kinds of, well, she

00:38:35.370 - 00:38:50.669

was from a relatively wealthy family. I suppose you could call that more American than American. Yeah. So anyway, you know, I, I, I sort of dropped her off and I, I couldn't help but laugh, you know, at myself. Response and, and I told her that I

00:38:50.669 - 00:39:07.070

can remember going by this street with a kid with my mouth face against the car window, wondering who lived in these houses, what their lives were like so more American and American also more wealthy and yeah, and, uh, anyway, it sort of led to a friendship

00:39:07.070 - 00:39:27.280

and uh we, we talked a lot, uh, over a year or so and uh kept in touch sometime after I came here and I don't, you know, in a way, um. She wasn't particularly well informed about black history or black people or anything like that, but

00:39:27.280 - 00:39:43.280

she was a good touch point for me, you know, to, to. Get various kinds of reactions and uh and at least it was, you know, I think she was usually pretty honest with me and pretty straight and and she could, you know, she could easily straighten

00:39:43.280 - 00:39:58.169

out many of the stupid things that I thought or felt, etc. and uh uh. That it was a sort of useful thing for me. I, I don't mean to suggest that during those three years I was in Wayne, I was studying race all the time, however,

00:39:58.260 - 00:40:19.310

but you know, that was sort of, uh, that, that was a beginning involvement. OK, we need to go back and that's. 57, 60 by the time you leave Detroit and Wayne State University. So you come to Kansas City and uh when did the chorus chapter start

00:40:19.310 - 00:40:36.169

here that you were the chairman of it was coming to Kansas City that was sort of my plunge into race and what have you uh when we left. Detroit The sit-in activity and so on was pretty intense in various parts of the country and there was

00:40:36.169 - 00:40:53.270

a lot of civil rights activity and I. By this time was becoming increasingly concerned about it and wanted to do something and had sent contributions to core and and so on. And we had, both my wife and I sort of made up our minds when we

00:40:53.270 - 00:41:14.419

came here that if there was one thing we were going to be active in, it was going to be race. I had been involved slightly in Uh, some political activity, but, uh, um. Uh, Edlai Stevenson was my, my great hero both in 52 and 56. Stevenson.

00:41:15.550 - 00:41:29.959

And uh well I, I was just totally wrapped up in that man for a while and uh so but I'm very frustrated at the political process of his defeat and so you know I sort of had made up my mind when we came here that if

00:41:29.959 - 00:41:46.590

we're going to do anything in any social way at all it's going to be race and so first thing we did when we came here was to go to the NAACP meetings. Who was the, who was the head of the NAACP here? OK, who's still around

00:41:46.590 - 00:42:05.010

and active in politics these days. Lee was, Lee was very. Gracious and sort of welcoming us, but uh, he didn't put me to work in any way and I think he was really a little fearful. uh I mean he, uh, I don't know, I could never

00:42:05.010 - 00:42:29.899

quite. I went to see him 2 or 3 times individually and uh and I was sort of fobbed off and meaningless activities uh and uh. Was growing increasingly dissatisfied until about December. Of that first year I was here. Uh, when I, let me, let me ask

00:42:29.899 - 00:42:44.699

you this. Do you think there could have been any kind of way of foreshadowing of the attitudes that came about even in Cre later on that, you know, whites shouldn't be part of the civil rights movement? Do you think that maybe that was, you know, that,

00:42:44.870 - 00:42:59.270

that, that he was carrying some of those attitudes that early, you know? Oh yes, I'm sure that he was. I, I. Afterward, got to know Lee much better when I became chairman of CORE and we, we sort of met in some sense then as as sort

00:42:59.270 - 00:43:14.870

of equals and You know, always officially trying to cooperate and yet with some kind of competitions going on and then I think we, we were able to open up and he told me some very personal experiences that he had that made me understand, I think, much

00:43:14.870 - 00:43:35.219

of his feelings, uh, you know, he, he, his own. Family was burned out by the Ku Klux Klan in Coffeyville, Kansas. Um-hum, uh, and, uh, you know, he told me. That's, that's Lee, his family was burned down by the Ku Klux Klan. Yeah. Um-hum. Uh, and,

00:43:35.229 - 00:43:51.350

uh, You know, I, I think I can, I, I can understand his feelings. I, I still think he was sort of wrong tactically and otherwise, and part of his problem at that time is that he had another very aggressive white guy who was very active with

00:43:51.350 - 00:44:09.020

the NAACP, you know, and it was a little bit like um. The white community reacts with, with some blacks in reverse that you can only have one at a time, you know. You don't wanna have too many in there, it gets complicated. Uh, uh, Ken Waterman,

00:44:09.100 - 00:44:25.189

I don't know if you've ever, you know Ken at all. He, I think I've heard the name. Well, he was a very, very, he, he was pastor of a church down on 10th Street. Uh, next to the old dental school. Um-hum. You know, just a block

00:44:25.189 - 00:44:43.310

east of Truce, yeah. And he led a very, you know, it was a very aggressive social organization at that time in the area and he was a, Um, he was a very interesting guy. Anyway. Uh, but he was sort of the white guy in in the

00:44:43.310 - 00:44:57.580

NAACP at the time, and, uh. I don't know. I, I, uh, and anyway, I couldn't, I don't feel like I did understand at the time all that was going on by any means, but I knew that I was just getting turned off and I couldn't quite

00:44:57.580 - 00:45:16.290

make it and. Before I had left Detroit, I had answered a questionnaire from CORE asking me whether I've been interested, would be interested in becoming an active member of CORE and I who was the leader of CORE at that time? Was that James Foreman, Furman, Foreman,

00:45:16.370 - 00:45:34.810

yeah, right, um. And who was around here on the on the local scene or were you just starting the chapter there wasn't a court chapter here at the time, although I've since read about there had been a chapter, which I didn't even know about it defunct

00:45:34.810 - 00:45:54.850

or something apparently, um. There was a recently in the Kansas City Star an interview of a. Black woman. I don't know if you'll remember it. I, I can't, sorry, I can't remember her name, but I meant to read. That's Betty, um, it was a big interview,

00:45:54.979 - 00:46:15.209

long interview. She's come back to Kansas City after having been away from South Africa and this is Betty, uh. Hughes Williams, I think so. She referred to to being a leader of CORE here and that was before we she has a she has a television show

00:46:15.209 - 00:46:32.320

on now on uh. On the educational channel. Well, I didn't know about that core chapter at all. No, there are many things I didn't know about, particularly at the time, but at any rate, I And National core office sort of followed up my response because I

00:46:32.320 - 00:46:45.679

told them I was moving to Kansas City and gave them my address here but they never, they filed it under Detroit. And only about December or so, they caught up with it and wrote to me and asked me if I was still interested in becoming active

00:46:45.679 - 00:47:02.850

in court, and I felt kind of, as I said, that I wasn't really being used or couldn't be effective in the NAACP at the time and And I wrote back and said yes and uh. Apparently there were other respondents from Kansas City at the same time,

00:47:02.870 - 00:47:23.909

and they decided that they would send a field secretary out from the national office and try to organize a core chapter here. And they did in February that I remember. Of what 61. 61. OK, so. February '61, you organized a court chapter. Are you immediately then

00:47:23.909 - 00:47:41.159

the chairman or is it, or did, uh, I was immediately the chairman because we had the first meeting at my house. It was as accidental as that, but, uh, uh. It was everybody, you know, like usually when you get a bunch of people who don't know

00:47:41.159 - 00:47:55.149

each other, uh, there was somebody, everybody saying no, not me, not me, not me, etc. it's that kind of thing, uh, but we had, it was a kind of interesting group of people who came, and I think in terms of history here, there's some interest in

00:47:55.729 - 00:48:18.169

the black people who came, uh. The most important of whom was Lero Jordan, uh, Leon, Leon, I'm sorry. Leon and Orchid both came as a matter of fact and uh. Larry Blankenship and Opel Blankenship. Uh, they, as I remember, were our only blacks at that time.

00:48:18.250 - 00:48:37.500

Most of the people who came were white. Oprah Blankenship. Is who and into. Opel is Larry's wife. OK. I, I've not kept in touch lately, but she was Lawrence Blankenship, you know, I've heard his name a lot of times, but it, you know, it. You know,

00:48:37.540 - 00:48:52.179

in connection with politics, in connection with civil rights and whatnot, but I'm not sure, you know, how much I know about him, you know, so maybe if you could tell me a little bit about Him and, well, he has that beauty supply business. OK. And as

00:48:52.179 - 00:49:14.090

a, he's a reasonably successful businessman. He's also been on the board of, uh, The, the, the savings and loan that's down on, I'm sorry it's a black savings loan and and I think about uh. Used to be between 18th and 19th. Yeah, uh, uh, finance, uh,

00:49:14.860 - 00:49:30.379

What's the name of it? What is, I, I can't remember right now. People's Finance, was it like that, but it's gone out of business now. They had a, they went bankrupt. Well, he's, he's, he's been involved. He's, you know, he's reasonably well off and he's been

00:49:30.379 - 00:49:50.659

in many things like that. His, his beauty business is the main thing, and that's been very successful. Ah, but he, he then was involved in various, various kinds of civil rights activity and. Only only subsequently went into politics with with freedom, uh, that was, well, freedom

00:49:50.659 - 00:50:10.790

of course wasn't here at that time, uh. But the, the Blanken ships and Jordans were friends. Uh, OK, now Leanne, Leanne Jordan is, is, um. Was the founder, one of the founders of Freedom Incorporated, who, who has subsequently been assassinated or killed or, or, um, you

00:50:10.790 - 00:50:32.030

know, whatever, whatever the stories, you know, uh, finally turned out to be. And of course, is the state representative. Well, at that first meeting, there was a kind of agreement. Leon suggested that I become chairman of the core chapter, and when I told him, you know,

00:50:32.110 - 00:50:50.340

that I was new in the community, didn't know anything, etc. he promised to be My entree to the black community and he was, he became in a sense, my uh. I sort of think of him as what a father or elder brother uh uh he became

00:50:50.340 - 00:51:08.649

a very close friend and certainly a very staunch supporter of all that we did in court and and helped us, uh, you know, get to know what was going on and get to know people. I wanna come back to. You know, who some of the other

00:51:08.649 - 00:51:33.060

people were, you know, in the, in the initial chapter of CR, um. But how did you feel when, you know, you found out Leon Jordan had been killed? Uh, pretty bad, uh. We, uh, Work, work, what time he was, let's see, I'm trying to think of

00:51:33.060 - 00:52:04.750

the year he was. Killed. We were, we hadn't been really close that, you know, that last year or two, Let's see, this was in, He was killed in, uh, And about 69. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking 69, 70. I, I think it was about

00:52:04.750 - 00:52:33.179

69, 70. Uh, I, Was relatively out of civil rights by that time. Oh, I knew him best back in, well, I'd say 62, 63. Um-hum. Particularly, uh, we were very close in those years, uh. And uh. There had been a kind of estrangement partly through the

00:52:33.179 - 00:53:03.179

whole development of Freedom Incorporated at the time. Freedom was a rival kind of organization. I, you know, in a, in a way I never took very active part in politics in the black community except on a kind of personal basis and uh. When there there were

00:53:03.179 - 00:53:24.020

1st, 1st ran black candidates, Earl Thomas and Harold Holiday ran as independent candidates of freedom. Uh, for a city councilman posts, and they ran on a ticket together, and they were two men whom I admired and liked very much, and you're talking about Harold Holliday Senior

00:53:24.020 - 00:53:44.030

too as opposed to Junior, right, Harold Holliday Senior, and I, I, uh, Harold Holiday Senior had been very helpful with us as a, as a legal consultant and otherwise in various kinds of our core activities. And uh Cecil A Cecil Williams, who was that the minister

00:53:44.030 - 00:54:02.550

or OK, he's the guy out in San Francisco now. He and I had been co-chairman corps together and we're very close and Harold Holiday was a parishioner of Cecil's and that's how we really got to know him most of the holidays, both of them were always

00:54:02.550 - 00:54:23.040

of course very active and mostly in what was CCSA at the time. Citizens Committee for Social Action, uh, which also I didn't know about when I we started CORE, which was very, very naive on my part but which really was a strong civil rights organization at

00:54:23.040 - 00:54:48.820

that time, uh, probably it was the rival organization in a sense. For the NAACP at the time. In a way I was starting a third front and didn't know it, uh, but at any rate, uh, uh. I worked with Holiday's campaign, uh, because I admired him

00:54:48.820 - 00:55:10.399

very much and I admired Phil Thomas very much. And uh. Uh, this was a campaign against freedom which was just getting started at that time, that is, it was a rival campaign for freedom and holiday. was very bitter at his defeat. Uh, and I said who

00:55:10.399 - 00:55:35.969

the councilman's slot, he was running against Bruce Watkins. I see. Watkins. Uh, so Watkins is a councilman now and had been a councilman much earlier too. I see. I didn't know that. Uh, and I think. Harold felt that he had really been a. He felt betrayed,

00:55:35.979 - 00:55:52.320

I think, by his own community at that time because he had really been out front in all kinds of civil rights activities and Bruce at that point really hadn't been. He was sort of the uh. Rich boy, playboy type, as many many people saw it, you

00:55:52.320 - 00:56:08.239

know, and uh uh hadn't really done very much and uh uh Harold felt like the people simply didn't appreciate him and I was at Harold's house the night of the, you know, the returns and we went through the whole down thing. When it went. It's going

00:56:08.239 - 00:56:26.510

back and. I sort of witnessed Harold's turnaround and uh you know, I, without his really saying so it was very clear that he made up his mind you can't beat them, you join them in some sense and, and he's, you know, and that bothered me frankly

00:56:26.510 - 00:56:44.830

so now he's a state representative too, right? OK, yes, yes. OK, Harold senior is a state representative and Harold Junior is a county legislator. Yes, OK. And that, that kind of come, comes about as a result of him joining Freedom and becoming very active in their

00:56:44.830 - 00:57:03.629

in their political group. OK, so You talked about, you know, your childhood and you talked about some of the things that that have influenced you. You talked about the Kura group and we wanted to go back and talk a minute more about other people who were

00:57:03.629 - 00:57:17.830

there because I think there, there were some other, uh, you know, black people who were pretty important or pretty influential or, uh, you know, who have, who have been involved in the civil rights movement around the city who are still on the scene now, you know,

00:57:17.909 - 00:57:35.419

who are probably. Uh, at some time or another involved in the first core group. Not in the first core group. Um, it took, it took us a year. When did, uh, Mary Hayes and, and Alvin Brooks and those people come along, uh, about. I'd say about

00:57:36.870 - 00:57:55.820

About 63, 64. I'm, I'm not sure. Al, Al's wife, uh. was active in cop first because Al was still part of the police department that he couldn't be active so he was sort of a sub rosa sympathizer but he didn't, he felt as a police officer

00:57:55.820 - 00:58:15.939

he couldn't, uh, you know, be active with us in any very direct way, uh, and it was only after he resigned from the police force that he became active in court, uh, and Mary, I think. Mary's involvement, I think, sort of predated that but really became

00:58:15.939 - 00:58:37.100

more important after Elle became, uh, involved and she and now of course Elle is one of the assistant city managers and Mary Hayes is the director of the Department of Human Relations at City Hall. OK. But what other people? Well, I, I think probably the other

00:58:37.100 - 00:58:53.189

most notable person is, is Cecil Williams that we talk about for a minute. Uh, he was pastor at Saint Mark's Church. Which is where? Is that the church down on 26th and Norton or something like that? Oh, OK. There's a, there's another Saint Mark's, I think

00:58:53.189 - 00:59:11.310

down on. Yeah, not 11th Street or, not the new one, not that one. OK. And I may, may have that name wrong too. I'm not, I wouldn't, wouldn't swear to it, OK, uh. I'm sorry, I can't remember for certain, but it's a church over about twenty-sixth

00:59:11.310 - 00:59:32.639

and Norton. It's not the new one at any rate, and I know, you know, uh. Uh, it, it's a, it's a, it was in, I guess it's AME or CME. I've forgotten which it was, uh, AME, I believe. OK, African Methodist, yes. OK, uh, or maybe

00:59:32.639 - 00:59:57.010

it was, gosh, I I'm I shouldn't know either was, maybe it was church Methodist anyway, anyway, uh, he's in the Methodist church, uh. And, uh, Uh, He would he he came well. The first year I'd say that we had the core chapter, the core chapter had

00:59:57.010 - 01:00:18.939

a real problem. Having any kind of credibility with the black community, it was primarily a white group despite Leon's and, and the Blankenship's support, uh. We were meeting, we started meeting at my house, then we started meeting at the university, and I think the university was

01:00:18.939 - 01:00:28.790

still considered sort of suspect in the black area. And uh we were thought of, I think, for the most part as, as, you know, nice liberal.