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Life Archives of Mid-America. Um, this morning, I'm interviewing Mr. uh, Colonel Robert L. Sweeney. Uh, the, the, the topic of this interview is under both political sciences and Community Affairs and labor for that matter. Uh, today's date is July 28, 1976. Uh, the time is 9:48

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a.m. Good morning, Mr. Sweeney. Good morning, Mr. President. OK, uh, Mr. Sweeney. From all indication, um, I've talked to quite a few people since, uh, since, since our, our, our pre-interview or since our last communications, and, uh, I have come to the conclusion that your interview,

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um, Um, uh, can be can can fall in a number of categories. Number 1, the labor category because of your involvement with, with, with various labor movements and the, uh, working in the postal service for a number of years. Number 2, political. Alliances because of your

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involvement with various political prototypes throughout the United States, locally and throughout the United States, excuse me, and then community affairs because of the involvement that um that that that you've had within the local Kansas City community. Uh, first of all, Mr. Sweeney, uh where were you

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born? I was born in Highland Donovan, County, Kansas. That's located about 30 miles west of Saint Joseph, Missouri. It's a farming community. And Some of the best land that lays outdoors is, uh, and some of the finest people that live in that community. Um, my father

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was a, uh, was a celebrated horse and mule buyer at that time. Well, what was his name? His name was Bob Sweeney. Bob Sweeney. He was, before you go any further, when were you born? Uh, November 14th, 1895. OK, go ahead. Um My father, um, Bought

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horses and mules for, um, One of the largest uh organizations known at that time. Um, Sparks Brothers. And BD Williams. And uh Shanel. Uh, those are people that were known in the, uh, horse and mule business. Uh, you, you might note that, uh, the horse and

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mule business at that time was like the automobile business today because farmers and everybody, uh, uh, not only farmers use horses and mules, but horses and mules were used, uh, by transfer companies, uh. And the different, uh, that was their mode that was a, uh, uh,

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the owner mode of, uh, transportation that time and then your father was, let's say that for that particular time considerably wealthy then. Well, he, he handled a whole lot of money for a big corporation. OK, what, what was your mother's name? Julia Sweeney. And where was

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she from? She was, uh, my mother and father both came to, uh, Came to Kansas. When they first came to Missouri. Mhm. Yeah, go ahead. And they moved from Missouri to Kansas. And uh He was engaged then to work for BD Williams, same type of company,

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buying horses and mules. They gave him BD Williams and uh. BD Williams of Highland, Kansas, and another man for whom I was named Robert L. Stone. Gave my father an opportunity to buy horses and mules and uh he developed in one of the, he was known

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throughout the country as uh a what you call a celebrated horse and mule buyer because they dealt in some of the finest uh Horses and mules that could be purchased. Uh, I mean, how many horses and mules, let's say that your father actually manage? Well, at

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a, at a given point he was. Highland, Kansas was known as one of the, uh, as a mule center just like uh Just like um. Detroit being the motor capital of the world, being Detroit, uh, being one of the locations where they handle a lot of

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mobiles, of course, a manufacturing there, but it was a mule distribution center. And they shipped horses and mules that uh from Highland, Kansas to various places of America. In other words, there's a, there's the mule that the farmers use. Uh, a horse and mule that the,

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a horse that the farmers use. There's a mule that they use in the, uh, sugar industry. There's a mining mule. There were different military and military mules, so he bought for, for come on in. Did you, did you have brothers and sisters? I have, uh, I

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have three sisters and one brother. Wow. Uh, my oldest sister, Jessie, who is deceased, Emma was the 2nd girl, she's passed. Um, I only have now one living sister, Genevieve Fleming, where she, she lives here in Kansas, Missouri, OK, um, um. Where, where were you actually

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born? Were you born at home or were you born in a hospital? I was born, uh, I was born at home, but we had a very fine breeding. Dr. Breeding attended my mother. OK. And um is that a white doctor, doctor, very fine, very fine. Mhm.

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How was your family, uh, accepted by the, uh, the white community at that time? My family was accepted by the white community. In fact, all of my association, playmates and school friends, um, so it wasn't any, uh, separation of schools at that time. We, uh, we

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had the finest relationship, um. In other words, I was brought up in a, in a I didn't know anything about prejudice until I came to Saint Joseph, Missouri after I finished high school in Highland, Kansas. Well, let's don't go that far. Yeah. Uh, where did you

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go to grade school? What was the name of the school? I went to school at Highland, uh, Highland, Kansas. What was the name of the school? Highland High School. Highland, Kansas, is just the only one school there, and I finished in the Highland High School. How

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many was in your classroom there? You know, I I have about, uh, Let me see, I, I got to get, I got to get guessbu on. They're probably about 25 or 30, and it was about, uh, one other colored girl that finishes being Emma Star. Remember

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her, her name, Emma Star. Emma Star, OK. You smile when you say that. Emma Star. OK, uh, uh, what type of a person were you, let's say, at the age of 5, Mrs. I remember. I, my mother started me out. Did you work? Uh, at, uh,

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I'm going to bring up. Um, At the age of 5. I Age of 5, I, I was in, uh, I was in, um, Primary school and Miss Allie Rankin, A flaxen haired, blue-eyed. Liddy was my teacher. She was very kind to me. And in that little

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uh town out of Kansas on Friday we would always have a program and the uh school and uh. When I was about, uh, 7. Or 8 years old. My sister and I had a little skit. And uh I was, went around the room, Uh, diddle diddle

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dumpling my son John. Went to bed with his stocking on, one shoe off and one shoe on, did a little nothing. My son jumped. And then I started uh, from that time, I started with the white boys that they would have me to dance and would

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give me pennies. And Nichols and I learned and I Started to, um, That time I started to save. Those pennies and nickels. And by the time that I was 11 years old, I had accumulated enough money to buy me a team of horses. Cost me $80.

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And I used that team of horses and hired a white boy by the name of Cesar Della paid him $1.05 a day that worked on that railroad that came through Highland, Kansas. At that time. Hmm, uh, backing up. We don't wanna get past 11 years. You

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got too much in between there. Where, where did you go to church and uh Well, we had a church, we had a church, um, We had a colored Methodist church there. And my mother was a, uh, My mother was a very good church member. What was

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the pastor's name? Do you remember? Can't remember that kind of thing so long. All right, before you tell me about your mother, just a moment ago you said that living in this particular town in, in, in, in Kansas, there was no racial problems. No racial problems.

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Why were there two churches? No, no, well, at that, of course, uh, there was, uh. The, uh, they had a Negro church and, and the white churches, but, uh, as far as racial, uh, trouble, we had no racial trouble. It was just distinct distinct, uh, white

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and, uh, situation that, that's the way it was. That's, that's just a custom all over, all over the state of Kansas at that time. What, what did, what did, what did the young men in Kansas, let's say 10 year old in Kansas, do for a good

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time at that point? Well, I, um, I'm speaking for myself. I have busied myself because my mother was very industrious and she, she, uh, taught us the value of money and how to make money. And I I, um, sold newspapers. I shined shoes. I utilized my

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time in that way by, I was able to make money. And then too. And then too, um, I started out at a very young age, um, because I had a horse, I thought, uh, I would, uh, go through the uh Farming community out there. And buy

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junk. At a very at a very young age and would haul that junk to, uh, I'd have a, a white fellow by the name of Vastus Ford who would haul that junk to Saint Joseph, Missouri and sell it and but uh I was I kept pretty

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busy. Making money at a very young age. Um-hum, um-hum. Um, uh, what type of an association did you have with your father at that time? Um, My father, It wasn't, uh, close association that I would like to, Uh, a drug then. Um-hum. My father was, uh,

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Going through the country Buying horses and mules. Oh, he was on the road a lot. He was on the road a lot. He wasn't know. We looked to our mother. And my mother, um, if I amount to anything, I must give my mother credit for it

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because she most certainly was a very, very unusual. Person. Were you the oldest of the children? No, I was, uh, no, I had a brother. And a sister older than me. My brother, what's his name? My brother named Willie Swinney, who is deceased. He was the

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oldest. My sister Jessie was Jessie was next. I was the 3rd child and Emma, she was a 4th child and my sister Genevieve was Atlanta. OK. OK. And she's the only living one now, Genevieve's. How old is she? Yeah. She is about 4 years. She's about

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2 to about 3 or 4 years younger than I am. um, uh, you say at 11 you bought your first team of mules. I bought my first team of horses, um, uh, uh, grand pair of horses, so you had your own business in that for that

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matter. I had my own. I had, yes, if you might term it a business and my own. What does a 12 year old do with a business? Well, the type of business that I use that horse at that, uh, at that time, there was a railroad

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coming through Highland, Kansas. You remember the name of the railroad, uh, the Burlington Railroad branch. It was a branch that came in from, um, it was a branch railroad. See, Highland, Kansas was an in, uh, was a, uh, um, it wasn't on the main line, but

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we had a branch line that ran into Highland. And at that time it gave some employment to the people there and I happen to have a team and um which paid me $3.50 a day for the use of my team and I employed a white boy

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by the name of Cecil Dillon to drive my team to what you call a wheeler scraper. And uh the, where they scraped up the dirt and dumped it in to build uh uh That that was um that was the way they be there so you you

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was making a considerable profit then I made I made what did you do with your profit? Well, I saved my money. Mhm. Did you ever reinvest it at that age? Well, no, no. I didn't. Who was president then? Um, in 1912. In 1900, that's the year

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1951. That's what 196 is when the railroad came through then and I finished high school in 1912. Um, you finished high school when I finished high school in 2012. OK. Who was principal of your high school? Johnny Jones. A, a white man. White man. OK. Uh,

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where did you go after finishing high school? I came to Saint Joseph, Missouri. And what were you doing there? I chauffeured for Doctor WJ McGill. Chauffeured what? Chauffeur. And I, uh, I, uh, that was when automobiles were first coming out. Um-hum. And Doctor Miguel hired me

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to, uh, to, uh, Uh, to work for him. OK. Uh, Doctor McGill black or white? White. He was, uh, uh, what, uh, um, uh, um, um, a general practitioner, more or less. He was, uh, he was a practitioner and, uh, and a surgeon. Um-hum. Um, how

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did you learn how to drive? You've been driving all these, uh, I learned to drive in, in Highland, Kansas. I first, uh, um, Uh, Doctor Graham. Um-hum. Doctor Graham. I, uh, worked around Doctor Graham's, uh, Uh, office and, uh, He had an old Ford automobile, Model

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T Ford. Um-hum. A Model T. You learned on a Model T. I learned on a Model T Ford. What were you driving for this other doctor? Drove a 2012 Cadillac. Um-hum. One first 1912. Where did you stay when you was living in, in I stayed, I

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stayed right, uh, right at the home, right with Doctor Miguel. Stayed, I, I lived right in the home. Um-hum. Uh I was making $50 a month with the board and. In the meantime, you still had your team of mules working, didn't you? Well, but that, that's

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the time I had left Highland and come to Saint Joseph, Missouri. Oh, you left that business. You sold out. Highland. What was your parents and, uh, feeling about you leaving home? Well, my parents were female like, uh, any, any, uh, Any child living there about 17

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or 18 years old, they were reluctant about me, uh, coming to a city, but, uh, that is one thing I guess that, uh. One of the natural instincts of a person as they get older, they want to go where there's, uh, Uh, into a different environment,

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um, uh, did you feel a need for further education? I, it was my intention. It was my intention. To, uh, To, uh, go on to college. Where? It was my intention to go on to college. But, uh, Unfortunately. My mother and father separated. Um-hum. And, um,

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Of course, now, I'm not using that as a crutch, uh, because it should have gone on to. Where did you want to go? I, I, I want to go to law school. Where? I want to go to law school. When I, when I first came to

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Saint Joseph, Missouri. Um, I thought probably I was going to go on to school. But then, as you know, you've got to making money and, uh, you, You, uh, you, you put off going to school, but when I left, uh, when I left Saint Joseph, Missouri,

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where I was, I went to the army. Oh, you, wait, wait a minute. You did go into the army? Yes. All right. What, what year did you go into the army? I went to the army. In 1908. In World War One, World War One, I, uh,

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was, uh, voluntarily inducted into the army into the 92nd Division, all-black division, all-black division, cavalry, uh, was a black division. I was, I was, uh, I was assigned to the medical department, 317 sanitary trained who was commanding officers. David B. Downing of my office, he was,

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he was, he was, he was commanding officer of the, uh, of the of the 317 sanitary train that was made up of a hospital corps and an ambulance corps. I was assigned to the, uh, hospital, uh, hospital corps. What was your best friend's name prior to

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you going into the, the army, the army, your buddy, yeah. Well, in Saint, uh, a boy by the name Alonzo Allen, he was one of my very good friends, black or white, he's a, he was a black boy and, um, Cecil Harvey. Did any of them

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enter the service with you? They didn't. And and Cliff Lehr, um, one thing that prompted me to, to really go into the service. And I was specially inducted was one of our very good friends by the name of Cliff Lehr who lived, uh, he was, he

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lived in Troy, Kansas, about 14 miles from my hometown, and he had gone to the army and he wrote me a letter. And in that letter, it told me that he had joined, Uh, Uncle Sam's army. And he was just one link in the chain. And

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he was there to do, Anything that was necessary for this country and that had prompted me more than anything else to want to join them. Did you have a great, then you had a great feeling of patriotism in that's right. And I, I, in other words,

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in other words, I paid my own way to Manhattan, Kansas, or Junction City, Kansas. And I was specially inducted into the army. And, um, In other words, I stayed around the army for several days and, and Doc, uh, and, uh, uh, Colonel Downing wanted to send

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me home. And I want to send you home, of course. I had not, I, I was there on, uh, not on an official capacity. I want, I wanted to get into the army and join up with my other friends, and, um, but then, um, I went

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over to see another Colonel Cole and Colonel Cole, uh, and Major Simmons, uh, I said we need men in the army like you, and I was specially inducted into the United States Army. What, what was it like, um, Then um As industrious as you that that

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you indicated, joining the military. At that particular time. I mean, a young, dashing black man, just, just out of high school, uh, uh, joining the military. What was it like? Uh, The person who wanted to, uh, Colonel Downey, who wanted to send me home. Since I

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was uh uh specially inducted in the army, he assigned me to the headquarters company. Of the 317 sanitary trained 92nd division. And I told Colonel Downing at that time that I didn't have any knowledge of, uh, typing or, uh, doing clerical work, but he told me

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I could learn and that I was signed to headquarters company. Mhm. And then what were your duties? Might do this then where, um, Um, Uh, I was, I was assigned as a clerk. And we kept a daily record of uh Different things which we assigned soldiers.

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Mr. Mr. Sweeney, excuse me for cutting you off. I, I'm, I'm confused. You were, you were born 18 what now? November 14th, 18 1895. 1895. We were only, let's say, uh, not quite 40 years out of, out of slavery. Uh, did you have, did your family

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or did you have any mental recollections of slavery at that point? Were there any impressions of slavery, uh, in Kansas? Um, well, as far as I was concerned, Um, We didn't have any, uh, um, I, I, I knew nothing about slavery or segregation, and the white

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people at that time in Kansas treated me, um. As far as we, we went to school together. I was a catcher on the baseball team. I, uh, went around with the, uh, With the, um, Um With the white boys and the white girls. You went, you

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had, you had white girlfriends? Well, I, I, I, I wouldn't say a girlfriend, but I was a companion, companions, OK, OK. Well what I'm getting at is that you, you, you, you, you openly, you wanted to go into the military. Yes. You know, uh, you had

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a great feeling of patriotism. That is right. All right. Uh, uh. That was not a universal feeling amongst black people at that particular time, or was it? Well, now, um, it just depends upon where you were, uh, now perhaps had I been in Georgia or Mississippi,

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Alabama, it may have been different, as I understand the treatment down there. But as far as the people in Highland, Donovan County, Kansas, those are some of the finest white people in the world. Let's say that and let me say this, and let me say this,

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let me say this. My father being a horse and mule buyer, that may have put us into a little bit different, uh, category than the different, uh, um, negro child because my father handled more money. And we perhaps lived a little bit better than some of

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the other negroes in that that community. We'll say that you are, uh, you just joined the military. You're 19 years of age, right? 1918, right, about 18, I guess, about 1818. All right. What would, uh, did, did you ever have, have reason to come to Kansas

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City? Um, When I joined the military, I was living in Saint Joseph, Missouri, prior, prior to joining the military, did you come to Kansas City? Yes, so socially because, uh, um. Whether we'd have a party or a dance or something down there, uh, Kansas City, Missouri.

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Uh, I was keeping company with them. Young lady who was a school teacher. Her name, Dorotha Hunley. OK. And we came to Kansas City to, uh, parties, uh, from time to time. How did you get back and forth? Uh, we had the, the, what is known

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as the inner urban. There was an inner urban that ran from, uh, from, uh, from Saint Joseph to, to Kansas City. What is that? A train in urban railroad. Uh-huh. Came over and from, um, Like Amtrak today. Well, it's, it's an in and it was a,

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uh, Uh, let me see. It was just, uh, It was just kind of a, uh, something like a, It was known as the in airline. OK. How long did it take to get back and forth? Yeah, it's only about, At that time, time didn't mean so

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much to it, but it, it did, it did, it did take, it, it was, it wasn't such a long trip. Uh, how much did it cost? About an hour. Um, the, the, the fare was very, was very cheap, very reasonable. A dime, a quarter. Oh, no,

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it cost more than that. It costs something like from 75 cents per dollar and a quarter. I don't remember, but, uh, That, uh, it was a very sophisticated way of traveling and known as the interurban railroad. Uh, some of the people that lived in that time,

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uh, they would be familiar with what the inner urban, the rail ran from, from, uh, Kansas City to Saint Joseph, Missouri and North Kansas City wasn't, uh, uh, as, uh, developed as much as that, and I remember, uh. Um, um, a person for whom I work

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told me that that would, would be a great investment for anybody to uh invest in that property because North Kansas City was a natural to be developed. What was, uh, uh, the black community like in Kansas City at that particular time? Black community in Kansas City.

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Tell me what it was geographically, north, south, east, west. Black community at that time. The Negroes were concentrated in a Any, uh, In a very small area. They were um. There was 12th Street. And Independence Avenue, 18th Street was a celebrated street. 18th and Vine. Even

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at that time. At that time. And Negroes didn't come at that time. Uh, at that time, Negroes weren't. Uh, any further than, uh, maybe 20 7 Maybe about twenty-seventh and Vine. Twenty-seventh was the boundary line. And to that time. And, and, to the west. And, uh,

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to the west, Well, the negroes at that time. That's a peculiar situation. Some of the most valuable property in Kansas City, Missouri. Negroes were living at 14th and Baltimore. 9th and Central. And negroes own some valuable property over on property that's valuable there over on the

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on the west side. Were there any rich black people at that time? I couldn't say Kansas City, Missouri. Uh, And any wealth of the well to do well, they, uh, the, uh And just, uh, part of that time a girl from Oklahoma came into Kansas City,

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Missouri by name was Sarah Recker. Mhm. And she had oil. Land down in Oklahoma. We had some negroes. We have some, uh, we have some industrious, a few industrious negroes here. A few in, in, uh, very few negroes at that time were, were embedded. What negroes

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are bus were negroes who had come from the Southland and migrated here and migrated here, uh, uh, who owned the funeral homes at that time? Were they black? Well, uh, county was a great, uh, uh, was, was a big name in the funeral business at that

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time. TB Watkins was here in that time. Walkin Brothers had already opened up. Watkins Brothers opened up. They were at 1729, Lydia. Moore was another undertaker. Count to, Moore and Watkins, they were some of the, and on the candle side, Nate Thatcher was a very prominent.

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Uh, female director, who were the outstanding, let's say, uh, we're talking about a period of, of, uh, let's say 1920. We're talking about, no, 1915 to 1920 right now. Who was, uh, who was the, who were the the socialites? I'm talking about as far as the

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politicians, um, um, um. The Kansas City Call had just been filed. Prior to that wasn't it? uh The Kansas City Sun was owned and operated by a black man with a Nelson, Nelson crew. He was a um. Great Republican political leader. How strong were the Republicans

00:30:35.260 - 00:30:57.939

at that time? The Negroes at that time, there were more Negro Republicans at that time than there were Democrats. Why? Well, They were Still under the uh influence of uh Having been freed by Abraham Lincoln and Lincoln belonged to the Republican Party. And how how and

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Nelson Cruz and TC Unthink. Uh, were some of the big Republicans. And they, uh, controlled and dominated the political scene at that time. And tell a young Negro by the name of Dr. William J. Tompkins. From Jefferson City, Missouri. And who located here, he was a

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physician and surgeon. Who located in Kansas City, Missouri and uh and uh organized the Negro Democratic Party. Mhm. At that time, to be a Democrat, he was criticized and ostracized, almost ostracized and almost some people want to almost run from the community, but he held on.

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Because he saw, uh, he saw the importance of, uh, dividing, uh, the Negro vote. Because at that time, the white man took the Negro vote to, um, for granted. If you're a black man, you are automatically Republican because you had been freed by the Republican Party.

00:32:08.189 - 00:32:50.500

And Tompkins. And Felix Payne. Organize the Democratic Party. Here in Kennington, Missouri. And uh that is the first time. That the Negroes, uh. The political power of the Negroes were felt. Mhm. Because Tompkins, hello. William J. Tompkins. You can or no organized. A very. Powerful organization.

00:32:50.579 - 00:33:10.459

All right, back up. What, um, what type of positions did the Kansas City Sun carry? I mean, I mean, as far as the black community is concerned. Um, Was it a good newspaper? It was a good newspaper, and Nels Cruz was a great man. Nelson C.

00:33:10.469 - 00:33:22.439

Cruz was a great, he was a great man. And, uh, how, how well did you know Mr. Cruz? Oh, I knew him quite well. What type of, uh, uh, uh, he was the editor then, right? He was editor of the Kansas City Sun. Uh, where was

00:33:22.439 - 00:33:44.599

he from? I don't know where Nelson. Nelson's Crewe was from Nelson can find C R E W C R A W W. Uh-huh. Very prominent and a very influential, uh, an individual. Um. And one of the great, a great orator. And, uh, did, uh, did, did,

00:33:44.689 - 00:33:56.239

did, did, did, uh, uh, you ever, well, let, let me jump, we, we, we, we skimmed over the top of a, of a point that you made earlier that I had to get back to, and that was about your military. Uh, uh, what rank were you

00:33:56.239 - 00:34:12.709

when, uh, what was the highest rank that you got while you were in the military? I was just, uh, And there were, uh, I was just a private, private also yeah. Um. But that was not unusual for a black person at that time, right? No. OK,

00:34:12.810 - 00:34:32.458

um, um, um, it was more or less, it was a great privilege at that time for a black man to go into the military, right? Well, um, uh, I guess you might say that because, uh, You take, um, We had uh, the first *** who graduated

00:34:32.458 - 00:34:54.709

from West Point, Colonel Young. He should have headed up the ninety-second division. But um They gave it to a white man instead, not to stand the fact that Colonel The young passed every test. Um-hum. It was purely racial. It was purely racial. All right. And, all

00:34:54.709 - 00:35:10.280

right, what, what was your feeling? I mean, you had not, uh, up to now witnessed anything purely racial. Well, uh, had you? The, no, no, but, uh, but there was, there was some comment about it at that time, but the, the, the interracial feeling wasn't as

00:35:10.280 - 00:35:35.620

keen. At that time as, as it is now. Um-hum. Notwithstanding the fact that we had some little, uh, skirmishes, uh, in the army, they had that Houston riot. Um-hum. I remember that down in Houston, Texas. But um the feeling wasn't as uh. Uh As much as

00:35:35.620 - 00:35:48.699

it is now, you know, about that, uh, what do you know about the Houston riot? Well, the only thing I remember about Houston riot, uh, I wasn't just what I had read in the paper of it, but I, I read occasion, but I, I just, just

00:35:48.699 - 00:36:05.070

passed it off as a, as a, I, I, I didn't take it in anything serious at personally. Uh, uh, we're talking about. And the, and the reason that I didn't do that, I think, I think there's a reason for that. Uh And I must come back

00:36:05.070 - 00:36:23.620

to that. I was born and raised in Highland, Kansas. And, um, I had, I, I, I didn't know anything about, uh, I, I hadn't suffered any uh any discrimination uh or you're, you know, you get back this, you're black, you can't go there. Because I associated

00:36:23.620 - 00:36:54.699

with, um, my schoolmates were white, and played baseball with white boys, um, had you ever been called a ***? Oh, they, uh They uh they. When was the first time you got called a *** that you can remember? That is it. I don't remember, uh, being,

00:36:54.729 - 00:37:14.479

uh, any, having any, uh, And, and that type of a situation in Highland, Kansas, perhaps after I came to Saint Joseph, Missouri, that's when I became cognizant of the fact that there was a big difference in the races. Even when you uh go to a white

00:37:14.479 - 00:37:44.459

school. And this perhaps is one of the disadvantages. Uh, in the curriculum, in the books there. There was a little bit of one paragraph. About Fred Douglas. And Booker T. Washington Mhm And you weren't taught about uh living Negroes. Uh, you're you're you you you live

00:37:44.459 - 00:38:01.209

under a white man's image. But, but you didn't answer my question. My question was, when was the first time that you came truly cognizant of your race after I had come to Kansas, uh, after come to St. Joseph St. Joe, and what I mean, now, now

00:38:01.709 - 00:38:13.284

the way you you've talked to me up to now, you know, you're a very emotional person, you know, I think that you hold a lot inside of you too. What was your feeling? I mean, you had never You had never confronted anything like this and you

00:38:13.284 - 00:38:35.360

were on, what you were, uh, 18 years old. That you you had lived in this bubble a long time. What was, you know, what was your inner feelings about this? Well, uh let me uh let me recite you an incident that uh Um, In Saint Joseph,

00:38:35.439 - 00:39:02.729

Missouri. One was working with Doctor WJ McGill. The Ku Klux Klan were just raising their head in the uh. No go ahead. northern part of the country. And I remember, uh, Doctor Miguel told me this, the man for whom I had worked. Some people, uh, uh,

00:39:02.860 - 00:39:27.270

some of his patients, Called him and told him that he didn't get rid of that, uh, I, I, I'm sure that they use the term *** chauffeur. That they were going to, uh, Uh, not use him. As there Physician and surgeon. He told you this? Uh,

00:39:27.389 - 00:39:49.610

Doctor Miguel told me this. Um-hum. And the father told Doctor Miguel that I was, um, Had some white nurses, And I was, uh, Driving them around in his car. But he knew that that was a lie because his car was, uh, Uh, home, you know, there

00:39:49.610 - 00:40:16.870

in the garage. And, uh, At times I did drive some white nurses around, but Doctor McGill's nurse, you know, he, Doctor McGill was, uh, he was well aware. But Doctor Miguel told these white people, This state. If those white nurses were out with his chauffeur, they

00:40:16.870 - 00:40:33.649

couldn't be out with any finer gentleman. And that he did not ask them for any of their business and anytime they wanted to uh not to patronize him as their doctor, they were willing to do so. But he was going to continue to have me as

00:40:33.649 - 00:41:00.879

his chauffeur. Now this was a statement by Dr. William J. McGill. And, uh, let me say this. Um, notwithstanding the fact that I was their chauffeur. But they treated me with the, With the greatest respect. As an employee. And when I went to the army and

00:41:00.879 - 00:41:19.500

came back. Mrs. WJ McGill put me in their guest room. And I was their guest when I came back to the. How long were you in the army there? I was in the army about 11 months. 11 months. Was that, uh, uh, I went to. Oh,

00:41:19.540 - 00:41:30.889

you went overseas? I went overseas. Where'd you go overseas? I went, I went to France. Oh, how did you like Paris? Young, I like, well, I was in, uh, uh, uh, dashing. That's, that's one place that I didn't, I didn't get to, but I, I got

00:41:30.889 - 00:41:45.800

down to southern France. Um-hum. Uh, on a, on a leave. Um-hum. Down to Nancy. Um-hum. Uh, what is that, uh, that's on the, uh, But, uh, that was a very fine place and I had a very, very fine time. How, how did the French treat you?

00:41:46.699 - 00:42:05.760

No difference, that is, that is one of the first, well, After having uh left Highland, Kansas and lived in Saint Joseph, Missouri, whether it was, uh, Missouri was a different situation than Kansas. And then when I hit France, uh, that was, uh, took me back to

00:42:05.760 - 00:42:24.699

some of the conditions in Highland, Kansas, and, uh, really democracy where you are really treated as a, as a full-fledged American citizen. No discrimination over there whatever. Mhm. How did you get to from, uh, from, from, from United States to France on a boat? I went

00:42:24.699 - 00:42:47.159

to, uh, uh, uh, sailed upon the Great Northern. The Great Northern and the Northern Pacific were sister ships. They went across the, uh, um, in a convoy, once, uh, you know, side by side. And we crossed the ocean in 7 days. 7 days. Uh, were there

00:42:47.159 - 00:43:08.699

separate quarters for the, for you on the. No. For the white officers and military men? Well, well, uh, of course, it was, uh, Um, the great northern, I, I saw very few white soldiers. The ninety-second division is a black outfit. Um. And we went over as

00:43:08.699 - 00:43:29.340

the, as a, we went over as a division. What was your buddy's name then? Um, in the military. In the army. Well, uh, this boy named Cliff Leir, whom I had known, and, uh. Here's one thing I, I must say, um, there was a group of

00:43:29.340 - 00:43:49.790

about 25 or 30 black men that were gotten together and joined up in the 92nd Division under Captain Homer Roberts. And they were friends of mine whom I had known. In, uh, civilian life and we were all in the same outfit. That was one thing that

00:43:49.790 - 00:44:05.300

prompted me, as you remember when I told you about Clifford Lear writing me that letter. I joined up with some of my associates and I You had known them as a I had not only known them, uh, just occasionally, but I had known them socially. Uh,

00:44:05.379 - 00:44:29.389

in Saint Joseph, we had the, uh, club called the Bastard Boys Club, and, and when I came to Kansas City, I joined the Broken Mill Club, and, um, In other words, um, There is a, uh, social stratification. But if you're in one, Social status in Saint

00:44:29.389 - 00:44:50.870

Joseph, Missouri. You are in the same social status when you come to Kansas, Missouri. Um. And that does not only prevail in Saint Joseph or Kansas and Missouri, but that prevails in New York City, Atlanta, Georgia, or Houston, Texas. Or any other place, because if, if

00:44:50.870 - 00:45:13.760

I know, I know people, Go ahead. You said you, you know people. Oh, like, uh, that's like, uh, when I go to, um, To Los Angeles. Or when I go to uh Fresco. I mean the people whom I have known are in the same social status

00:45:13.760 - 00:45:31.120

that I am, uh, that I have, uh, Dealt with over the years. That's right. Right. And even when I go to New York City. Well, well, well, hold it right there. You've always associated yourself in one way or another with position and money. That's right. You

00:45:31.120 - 00:45:59.810

know, with the leading negroes, leading negroes, uh, and white. And white all over the country. Right, right. Um, all right, after the military, uh, had you gotten married and things by then? Um, When I came out of the military service, I came back to work. For

00:45:59.810 - 00:46:26.780

Doctor WJ McGill. Came back to Saint Joseph, Missouri. What capacity, chauffeur? Chauffeur. Um-hum. This is approximately what year? About 1920. 1, 19, uh, about 1919. 1919. Yeah, 19, close of the war. Who was president? At present, that time. Uh, Was that Warren G. Harding? It was

00:46:26.780 - 00:46:56.560

Harding. Cause Doctor JRA Crossing, At Saint Joseph, Missouri. Ex minister to Liberia. Did you know him? I knew him as my personal friend. And at that time, I was a Republican. And, uh, Crossman at that time was trying to get a position. I've, uh, as director.

00:46:58.580 - 00:47:26.120

Medical director of Tuskegee Institute. Um-hum. And if I know anything about politics. I learned the key. I got the key from crossing because at that time he had me writing to Congressman. United States senator. Uh can you remember either one of the ones you was writing

00:47:26.120 - 00:47:51.629

to? You're talking about a long time ago. Yeah, that's a long time ago. Well, in fact, In fact, Uh, Carlson dictated the letters. I understand to these individuals and uh and um I put some things in their personal what I knew about Cro Croston and I

00:47:51.629 - 00:48:08.090

signed the letter, but Croston knew the uh knew these individuals. And at that time, let me say this, I didn't know that a plain Joe Blow could write to a United States congressman or a senator or a president, if you please. And that is one, that

00:48:08.090 - 00:48:30.790

is one thing that uh that uh took the scale from my eyes and opened up a whole new avenue of uh of approach. Mhm. And since that time, that was in the early days, I have been writing to senators and congressmen, and I have personally known.

00:48:31.169 - 00:48:52.100

Um, presidents and vice president of the United States since 1990. Since, uh, well, since, uh, uh, I, I first, I first learned, I first got the, uh, I first, uh, uh, learned that you, you could, you could know people, but in later years, mhm. Uh, uh,

00:48:52.229 - 00:49:08.709

Roosevelt, uh, uh, what did you think of it? I thought Roosevelt was one of the greatest. President of this world, this, this nation has ever had, right? Teddy Roosevelt. Well, I didn't, I, I wasn't so much about, uh, I wasn't so much about Teddy Roosevelt. You're

00:49:08.709 - 00:49:24.229

talking about Theodore. I'm talking about, I'm talking about. I, at that time when Teddy Roosevelt, I wasn't, I wasn't actively, I wasn't as close to politics as I am now. Um. But, however, I do know that he was a great man because, uh, I remember there

00:49:24.229 - 00:49:47.800

was a great to do made about when, um, When he invited a black man to have lunch with him, and all the newspapers of the country headlined that. And I, I don't know if it was WT Vernon. Of Buckety Washington. But Teddy Roosevelt invited one of

00:49:47.800 - 00:50:01.949

those uh uh men at that time to have lunch with him. Did you have any association with Booker T? No. Have you seen him? No, but, no, but my father, my father, uh, was, uh, but knew about Booker T. Washington. You and your father were still

00:50:01.949 - 00:50:17.469

communicating? Well, but, but I, I've heard my father speak about it. Um-hum. Did you, uh, uh, did you get to, did you, did you have a feel for the, for, did you have a feel for, uh, the social movement that was going on in America, in

00:50:17.469 - 00:50:40.949

regards to black people, um, uh, uh, elevating themselves? From the, uh, uh, from just coming out of slavery, did you see the movement for, for free for equality necessarily at that time? Um Like for instance, the type of uh of ideology or philosophy that uh Frederick

00:50:40.949 - 00:50:55.989

Douglass was speaking, even at that, I mean, well, not Frederick Douglass, well, Frederick Douglass had spoke of in uh or Booker T. Washington or George Washington Carver, uh, in regards or WEB Du Bois for that matter. Did you have a feel for those attitudes at that

00:50:55.989 - 00:51:18.979

time? I, I must be honest and frank about it. I didn't, um. I didn't really have a feel for it at that time. And it was in, in later years that you uh that you become cognizant of um Of the, uh, really, uh, the real, uh,

00:51:22.449 - 00:51:43.729

Position and plight of the black man. Um, I, I, I, I have to go back to, uh, some earlier day because if it's, uh, Brainwashing or, uh, whatever you might call it. You still felt I was, I was, I still, I still felt, I hadn't, uh,

00:51:43.879 - 00:52:11.149

suffered, uh, the injustices of which I have suffered, uh, in, in some of the later years. What, what kind of dances were they doing? Well, The, uh, dances we're doing at that time, uh, We were doing the two step, The hesitation was, I'm talking about at

00:52:11.149 - 00:52:31.850

the private parties now. That's what, uh, that's, um, there's always been a class stratification. Um. I've always, it didn't make any difference what town I was in, I always tried to associate myself with some of the leading negroes of that community. Mhm. I have always had

00:52:31.850 - 00:52:59.709

that, uh, that, that feeling. And it, the dances that, uh. Uh, that I went to. Word What you call, um, Private parties, invitation parties. Only, right. And we went and we did the, uh, the waltz was a beautiful thing at that time. The. The two-step. The

00:52:59.709 - 00:53:20.389

hesitation shotish with uh all of this other jitterbug and all that, you know, uh, a dance at that time, the, uh, formal parties, uh, the men were, uh, and women were dressed formally, uh, the young men at that time, uh, had a very high regard with

00:53:20.389 - 00:53:41.540

their, uh, lady friends. We would send them a corsage and, uh. OK. I, I, I may be, uh, as I, as I get older, I may be getting a, a little bit farther away from it, but I, I just wonder if the, um, If the younger

00:53:41.540 - 00:53:56.139

fellows that are coming on now have the uh uh the class to them that we tried to maintain the standards we had maintained at that time. Um. But you are a student of changing times. I'm, that is right. And of course I'm an Alpha, I'm, I'm,

00:53:56.219 - 00:54:10.489

I'm a life member of the Alpha fraternity and, um, which was the fraternity. The, the. Did you pledge the fraternity? I, I pledged uh in the fraternity and I'm, I'm a life member of the Alpha now. What did you pledge a fraternity? I played, uh, I,

00:54:10.610 - 00:54:21.949

I play, That brings me back to, I went back to school. Well, after coming out of the military, you went back into the, no, I went back to school in, in later years here in Texas. Well, what did you do? What, what did you do immediately

00:54:21.949 - 00:54:44.159

after coming out of the military? Uh, you went to work. I went to doctor, I work for Doctor Miguel. How long did you work there? I worked for Doctor Miguel, um, I worked for Doctor McGill from 1900 and, I came out of, of 1912. Until about

00:54:44.159 - 00:55:04.459

1900 and, uh, 20 until I came to 1920. All right. Uh seven years? Yes. I was. 8 years. Um-hum. And then I came to Saint Joseph, Missouri. I mean, then I came to Kansas City. All right. How, what, why did you come to Kansas City? Well,

00:55:06.040 - 00:55:25.979

My mother. Um-hum. Lived here. Um. My mother had lived here. And she she remarried and no, and she bought a home at 4320 Broadway. And um was that a black neighborhood then? it was out in Westport border right bordering on the country club district. Then there

00:55:25.979 - 00:55:39.419

was a there was a small settlement of black people and black people there but very, very, very fine people. And my mother tried to buy a piece of property and where she could put her family in the, uh, this nice environment. Did she bring all the

00:55:39.419 - 00:55:57.030

kids to Kansas City? Well, uh, my sister Genevieve and my sister Emma. And my sister Jess oh Jessie was married, uh, came to Kansas City. My brother, my brother, my brother, oldest brother Willie was living in Kansas City. What kind of employment did you gain, did

00:55:57.030 - 00:56:13.699

you have here? Well, I came, when I came to Kansas City. I went in the field of what I was, uh, doing in Saint Joseph and chauffeuring and chauffeuring at that time was one of the best, was considered a very. Um-hum. Uh, uh, uh. Good job.

00:56:13.840 - 00:56:33.629

Good job. Um. And you, um, you worked. As a chauffeur for Uh, I work for multimillionaire white people. Who did you work for initially? I worked for, uh, when I first came here, I worked for, uh, a man named Frank Sweet who was a, uh, he

00:56:33.629 - 00:56:58.500

was in the horse and mule business. Uh, he was a horse buyer down to the stockyard and then I, um, what were the Kansas City stockyards like at that time? Kansas City stockyard was, uh, It was, it was still active. And, uh Lie. But the horse

00:56:58.500 - 00:57:13.090

mill buildings were dwindling. Um-hum. And the automobile was coming into the forefront. Um-hum. But still, and yet there was action. There was a lot of action down at the Kansas City stockyard. It was still one of the top. Yeah. Stockyards in the Stockyard in the country.

00:57:13.340 - 00:57:33.729

No doubt about it. Uh, we had, we had a very good point in history. What happened, um, to, uh, you, um, the crash of the stock market? What was going on? I had to crash the stock market. I was, uh, I had gone to work. Let's

00:57:33.729 - 00:58:06.110

see, that was, Start my crash in 1929. Um-hum. In 1923. I was working for, um, Mr. AR Jones, 5701. Make sure you drive. Chauffeur? Chauffeur. Um-hum. Did you live there at his home? I lived at his home. Um-hum. Did they have the little port in the

00:58:06.110 - 00:58:31.320

back of the house for the car and you stayed upstairs or what? I, um, I lived, uh, my room, I had about a 3 room, equivalent to about 3 room quarter, right on the, uh, On the, uh, North end of the garage. Mhm. But uh I

00:58:31.320 - 00:59:05.949

had access to uh uh ER Jones's library. I had oriental roast in my, uh, In my room. Hmm. And, um, paintings and, um, that perhaps, That perhaps Was, uh, opened up to me. Uh, A desire for art. And literature, because I was exposed to some of

00:59:05.949 - 00:59:31.629

the finest paintings. I'm talking about, uh, AR Jones had one of the finest collection of inesis Western Mississippi River. He had Master McKenzie Rayburn. Um-hum. He had the tambourine Girl by Gainsborough. He had that cow that's out to the art gallery now by Gainsborough. He had

00:59:31.629 - 00:59:53.989

Lady Fitzgerald by Hofner. And I was exposed to some of the finest paintings and some of the finest antiques. And as far as drugs and china and uh different things of that kind has any place in the country so so we helped develop this value system

00:59:53.989 - 01:00:08.850

that you have to a great degree right OK well you, you, you, you had been living in this in this in in in this particular area for a number of years because all the doctors that you worked for were considerably wealthy men, wealthy people too, mhm.

01:00:09.540 - 01:00:19.000

And that has, that has a. Well how did it affect them, Mr. Tweedy, how did it affect them in regards to, uh, the, the stock market crash or what happened? Well,