00:00:02.920 - 00:00:22.399

And I'm uh interviewing Mrs. Mrs. Samella Gates, the executive director of the, uh, what's that communityban Affairs Urban Affairs department. First of all, what's your full name? My name is Sam Ella Gates. No middle initial? Well, I use my middle initial for my maiden name, M

00:00:22.399 - 00:00:39.720

Myers. What is your maiden name? Sam Ella Myers, M Y E R S. OK. Uh, Ms. Gates, uh, what is your birthday? January 1, 1921. So, how old does that make you? I'm 55. You're 55. All right. Um, where were you born? I was born at

00:00:39.720 - 00:00:56.599

San Antonio, Texas. San Antonio, Texas? Yes. All right. What hospital? Uh, I think I was not born in a hospital. As a matter of fact, I was born in a, a house which I went to, to San Antonio in December of '74 and took a picture

00:00:56.599 - 00:01:14.589

of. That's my understanding that my Sisters and brothers and I down to the 5th child, were not born in hospitals. Um-hum. Was there a mid mother there, a midwife? Uh, yes, right. Do you know what her name was? No, I don't know. I could probably find

00:01:14.589 - 00:01:27.889

out, but I never have asked my mother that question, as a matter of fact. What's your mother's name? My mother's name is Hattie L. Meyers. OK. And your father's name? My father's name, His name is William B. Myers. He is dead, however. How old is your

00:01:27.889 - 00:01:44.250

mother? My mother is 84. 84. Where is she living now? She lives here in Kansas City. OK, um, do you know her address? Yes, she lives at 3046 East 32nd. It's Walron at 32nd. Uh-huh. Uh, do, do you know, uh, your mother's, uh, mother's name? Yes,

00:01:44.330 - 00:02:05.839

my mother's mother's name was Fannie Jackson. From where? Um, she was born in Guadalupe County, Texas, so far as I am aware, and that's probably about 30 miles from San Antonio where I was born, and your grandfathers, my grandfather was named, uh, Samuel Jackson on my

00:02:05.839 - 00:02:32.240

mother's side, and he was born, uh, near Gonzales, Texas, I believe he was born into slavery. Uh, but, um. You know, was. A free man at, um, as a young man, I understand. His name was Smith, actually, the owner. Of the slave, uh, plantation where he

00:02:32.240 - 00:02:52.970

was born was named Smith and was his father, so he changed his name to Jackson himself. Do you know the name of the plantation? No, I don't. Do you know where the plantation was? It was in Texas in. Um, what would probably be called South, Uh,

00:02:53.089 - 00:03:09.710

or central east Texas. Gonzales, near Gonzales, Texas. Uh, do you know your, um, uh, do you know of any of your other great grandparents, maybe a great uncle or your, your father, your, your grandfather's brother or your grandfather's sister, do you know any of those names?

00:03:10.690 - 00:03:36.009

Um, Not their last names. I have heard my mother speak of an Aunt Eddie. And, uh, Of my father's brother who was named Albert. Who also when he left the home of the uh of their father who was white, took the name Johnson. Instead of naming

00:03:36.009 - 00:04:01.309

himself Jackson. But I do not know, um, About their children or any great uncles. Do you know, uh, where your white lineage comes from? I have not explored that other than that my maternal grandfather's father's name was Smith. OK. Uh, how many brothers and sisters do

00:04:01.309 - 00:04:21.489

you have? I have, Three sisters and 2 brothers and I had a third brother who died. And what was his name? His name was William B. Myers Jr. When did he die? He died in 1965. All right, uh, your sister's names. My sister's names are, Josephine

00:04:21.489 - 00:04:42.709

Brown. Josephine Meyers brand. Uh, Matabbel Myers Durky, D U R K E E. And Aura E. Meyers. And do you know where they are now? Yes. Uh, Josephine is in Minneapolis. She has lived there for about 15 years. You know her age? Yes, she is closest

00:04:42.709 - 00:05:05.140

to me. She's, uh, 51. And Maribel is in Houston. She would be, um, I guess 49. And uh she lives in Houston, Texas and has always lived in the state of Texas. And my sister Aura lives here in Kansas City, Missouri. Um-hum. Now, your brothers? I

00:05:05.140 - 00:05:25.220

have two brothers here, also Richard and Robert Myers. Myers. All right. Um, uh, your own children now. How many children do you have? I have 5 children. You have 5 children and their names? Their names are Oscar, Richard, Raymond, Milton, and David Smith. No daughters. No

00:05:25.220 - 00:05:52.690

daughters. OK. Um, Let me see. Um, we've gotten past your birthday now, all right? Um, um, What are the circumstances of your family moving to the metropolitan area of Kansas City, Missouri? Um, I had a, good opportunity, I think, offered to me in Kansas City by

00:05:52.690 - 00:06:13.260

my aunt, my mother's older sister. Who stated that she would, um, Uh, helped my husband and me get started in Kansas City by giving us, uh, getting us an apartment. And renovating it in a complex that they owned which had 6 units in it. Um. And

00:06:13.260 - 00:06:35.579

that they would give us rent free for three months after we got here. How old were you when you came to Kansas City? I was, um, 24. 24? Uh, what was your first employment getting to? My first employment was as a teacher. In the Independence, Missouri

00:06:35.579 - 00:06:57.660

Public schools in 1948 to 19,950. Can you remember what that was? Hiram Young School. Hiram. Yes, it was the, um, elementary school out there. It went from kindergarten through grade eight. Um, Was the. School for blacks, there was not an integrated system out there at that

00:06:57.660 - 00:07:14.410

time. And, um, children when they finish the 8th grade after. Came into Kansas City and went to school on a tuition basis paid by the city of Independence to the city of Kansas City and probably went to Lincoln or Manuel because Kansas City was also still

00:07:14.410 - 00:07:28.584

segregated at that time but that was my first job. Mhm. Alright, in that case, you are, uh, an educated woman. What did you get? Where did you go to, um, um, let's say grade school, elementary school, first of all. I went to elementary school in San

00:07:28.584 - 00:07:54.480

Antonio at a school called Breckenridge School. Um, I went to a school system that had what I guess is called a Uh, 533 plan that you went the 5th, the grades 1 through 5. Our, uh, Um, Elementary grades 6 through 8 junior high grades 9 through

00:07:54.480 - 00:08:13.739

11, which is what I finished, is the high school, and that's different from what schools usually did in that time but certainly different from today, uh, the most obvious difference of course being. The 12th grade and it means in my case that I finished school earlier

00:08:13.739 - 00:08:32.010

than many children because I had one less year. I was 15 when I finished high school, but I also was a product of the times in which you can get skipped in school. You skip grades and somewhere along the line way back down 1st grade. Second

00:08:32.010 - 00:08:45.359

grade I got skipped, so I finished high school at age 15 and you also didn't have to have a birth certificate in Texas at that time to get started to school so I'm sure I started earlier than 7, which was the legal age because I got

00:08:45.359 - 00:09:00.030

out at 15, which was 8 years after the legal age, so I must have. You know, I had a, I must have started at 5 or something like that. I know that I started early, but I don't know exactly what age. Were your parents educated people?

00:09:00.260 - 00:09:24.369

Yes. To what degree? They were college graduates, um. The the college not necessarily being of the same caliber that a four year institution would be today, but both my parents were graduates of Guadalupe. Um, college, a church school located at Seguin, Texas, and my dad was

00:09:24.369 - 00:09:47.289

valedictorian of his class and my mother was salutatorian of her class, so they were, you know, very, uh, uh. Uh, adept and, and, uh, very scholarly in their, uh, background. My father, Had been married when he um when he lost his wife to pneumonia. This wasn't

00:09:47.289 - 00:10:02.580

my mother, of course, and he went back to, we went to school. I don't know what schooling he had before he went to this church school, but it was like many schools to which blacks went. It had the capacity to serve you from the first grade

00:10:02.580 - 00:10:18.419

through the college, um, whatever, so I don't really know how much education he had before he went to what is called college profession he was a minister in the Baptist church. Do you remember the name of the church? Yes, Kara at the Baptist Church. He pastored

00:10:18.419 - 00:10:34.530

that church. That's the first one that I am aware of. I was born. While he was pastoring that church and he pastored that church for 25 years, but he had had small rural pastorages prior to going to Kin to San Antonio, so he was there for

00:10:34.530 - 00:10:58.659

25 years, then he moved to Houston. Um, In 1942. And pastor there until 1948 at the time of his death. What was your mother's occupation? My mother was largely a homemaker, although she taught school before she married my father. She finished at this college before he

00:10:58.659 - 00:11:16.880

did, at least 1 year before he did and perhaps 2. And she taught during that time, taught school. Her school was at Marion, Texas. I don't know anything more than that's where she worked. You spoke of your father's church. Are you Baptist? Yes, I am. To

00:11:16.880 - 00:11:41.770

what church do you belong? I belong to the Passao Baptist Church. How long have you been there? Since 1940. 7, I believe. I came here in 45. Who was pastor when you, uh Reverend DA Holmes. DA Holmes. Uh-huh. Um, OK. Um, Um, So the cir reflecting

00:11:41.770 - 00:11:55.369

back on the circumstances of you coming to Kansas City again. Yeah. Who else came to Kansas City with you? I was, um, married, so it was my husband and 3 children. My youngest child was Raymond and he was 4 months old at the time I came

00:11:55.369 - 00:12:12.059

here. Oh, what was your husband's name? My husband's name was Oscar Smith. Oh, yes, he is. He is dead. He is dead. Um-hum. Um, um, All right, you, you, one name has stuck, kind of, has stuck out, um, and that's DA Holmes. Um, what can you

00:12:12.059 - 00:12:29.109

remember of DA Holmes? Uh, I remember Holmes very well. He was, um, Um, a primary reason for my joining the church because I thought he was a good speaker. He reminded me of my own father because he was, you know, rather old fashioned in the way

00:12:29.109 - 00:12:48.690

he approached, um, Uh, the church ceremony, um, and the music was beautiful. Mrs. Alpha Holmes, his wife was the music director and I joined the choir. And so I had a pretty good association with the Holmes, uh, family. The Reverend and Mrs. Holmes constituted the family

00:12:48.690 - 00:13:10.690

that was in Kansas City at that time. And, um, Reverend Holmes was, um. A friend, I believe, as well as as a pastor, I think he um. Indicated a fair amount, no extraordinary amount of interest in most of the persons belonging to the church. He called

00:13:10.690 - 00:13:30.859

everybody by their first name, you know, he considered himself sort of like a dean. And uh didn't stand on any ceremony with anybody and so I had a. Um, Very satisfying relationship as a member of the church because I was active. I taught Sunday school there.

00:13:31.690 - 00:13:55.830

Uh, for several years and I worked with one of the choirs in the church later, um. Really thought very highly of Reverend Holmes. Though he was a sound theologian and that he developed his sermons really quite well, um, and that he was. Really quite capable of

00:13:55.830 - 00:14:12.469

um the kind of leadership that he became well known for, but he was not a young man when I first met him, so I don't know anything too much about the earlier days when the uh before the church was built and when he got his reputation

00:14:12.469 - 00:14:29.330

for being uh fearless in fighting the political corruption that existed in Kansas City. I was not here. Until shortly after all that took place, I didn't come here until 45 and it's my understanding that that took place shortly before. how did you get started in public

00:14:29.330 - 00:14:54.650

life? Well, I don't know uh how we get started in public life. I've worked in public funded jobs most of my life. I've only worked in one job that was not, um, state or. Local government. Well, I, I shouldn't say that because I had short time

00:14:54.650 - 00:15:11.489

jobs. What was that job? That was with the Kansas City Area Council of Girl Scouts. It's supported by private contributions such as the United Campaign collects. How did you happen to get into that? Oh, I had a friend who, uh, had worked with me at the

00:15:11.489 - 00:15:29.909

state welfare office. Her name, her name is Margaret Holiday. And when she got an opportunity through Doctor Thurman, who was on their board, Doctor Odell Thurman. She got an opportunity to go to work for the Girl Scout organization. She learned that they were going to hire

00:15:29.909 - 00:15:48.400

another black to work with the inner city Girl Scout, hard to reach troops as they call them. And so she recommended me and I was accepted and so I worked for them from 1960 to 1960. 7. But prior to that you had worked in public funded

00:15:48.400 - 00:16:03.030

jobs, right? Yes, right. What, what can you give me a rundown of those jobs? Yeah, I worked when my, when I first got out of school, I went to school at Prairie View, Texas. What class? 1940. Um, what were the circumstances of you going to Prairie

00:16:03.030 - 00:16:19.450

View? Well, it was the state's land grant college and it was less expensive than private schools and there were 7 children in the family and my parents. Valued education because of their own experience and uh so they wanted all of us to have an education and

00:16:19.989 - 00:16:33.229

that was after I finished junior college right there in San Antonio which was Saint Philip's Junior College and I told you I finished high school at 15. I was really a little young to go away in my parents' opinion so at 17 I did go away,

00:16:33.309 - 00:16:51.700

but I was a junior in college at that time. So my first job um was immediately after college as an elementary school teacher at West in West Texas which was called Abilene, a city called Abilene, and two of my children were born there. Um, But, uh,

00:16:52.419 - 00:17:14.038

so I, I, I taught school there for, Uh, I guess a total of 3.5 years, but the, the school teaching career. Uh, which lasted from, say, 1940 to 1950. Um, really I only got about 5 solid years in because my children were born in that period

00:17:14.038 - 00:17:33.439

and I stopped teaching and I'd go back and I'd stop, but they all, the 4 boys were born within 5 years, my 4 older boys. Uh, what degree did you pursue at Pirie View? Bachelor's degree with a, a major in, um. Um, Education and a minor

00:17:33.439 - 00:17:50.750

in public school music. And I chose Prairie View also because I had an older brother who had gone there. Who was president of the college then? Will Willette Rutherford Banks, WRR Banks. Is that a young lady? No, it's a man. Willet. Yeah. OK. Um, um, all

00:17:50.750 - 00:18:07.900

right, you're in Kansas City now. Your first job here is what again? My first job was in 48 to 50. I, I worked out at the Hiram Young School. It was not in Kansas City. It was in Independence. Right. Um. What are you giving me a

00:18:07.900 - 00:18:21.270

rundown of the rest of the jobs that you've been OK. My, my next job, uh, when I left Independence, I had a child that was born in '51. I left there and then I didn't work until late '52 when I worked for the state welfare office.

00:18:21.349 - 00:18:43.640

That's where this train of Kansas City jobs really starts. I worked for the uh Jackson County welfare office. It's called Division of Family Services now, um, from 1952. To 1960 determining eligibility of people for public assistance and then I worked for the Girl Scouts from 1960

00:18:43.640 - 00:19:03.780

to 1967. I worked in um capacity which took me all over the metropolitan Kansas City area as a trainer of leaders and an organizer of troops and a trainer of people to organize troops instead of my staying there organizing troops I trained. Other people and displaced

00:19:03.780 - 00:19:21.369

myself by training people to do it so I did that for 7 years and that gives you a nice solid block of 15 years right there those two jobs. I remarried in 1967 and uh moved away from Kansas City. What was your husband's name? Harvey Gates,

00:19:21.989 - 00:19:38.900

and um he, he was born at Hogansville, Georgia, but he was living in uh Atlanta at the time of our marriage. I met him originally here right there at the state welfare office, and we were colleagues at that time, and he returned to Atlanta and would

00:19:38.900 - 00:20:00.010

come back to Kansas City on visits, so we. resumed a friendship during one of those visits which I guess was 65 or 66. And uh I moved to Atlanta and was married there in July of 1967. Uh, it was, uh, not in a church. It was

00:20:00.010 - 00:20:21.060

in the home of friends of his. They are people whom I had just met, John Moore and, uh, his sister. Hazel. I can't remember Hazel's last name now. She was married and so I can't remember, but Moore was the family name and Reverend Moore, the minister

00:20:21.060 - 00:20:42.229

was John Moore's father. He performed the ceremony. Um, what else did you do in Atlanta? In Atlanta, I, um, had a very interesting experience working in a manpower program. It was the Manpower Development Training Act funded program. It was similar to the, uh, SEP program here,

00:20:42.579 - 00:21:09.920

concentrated Employment Program. It was called ASEP, Atlanta's, uh, concentrated Employment Program. I taught basic adult education and worked with people whose. Um, industrial or vocational skills were being developed by people in shop classes or in, um, laboratory classes such as institutional cooking or, uh, sewing or,

00:21:09.930 - 00:21:33.800

uh, um. Let's see, what else did they do? Um, Well, anyway, whatever kinds of language skills they needed to develop in an effort to do their um. Their jobs that they were being trained for, we work with the vocabulary that they needed on the job and

00:21:33.800 - 00:21:56.130

help them to improve their reading, um, Uh, capacity. I would like to, to, to back up a little bit here. Where were you, uh, let's say at the beginning of World War II? I was in Abilene, Texas. This is the same place that I mentioned. My

00:21:56.130 - 00:22:19.510

first job was, um, It was found at I taught at the uh high school there beginning in the fall of 1940 and was there in December 194941 when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. Do you remember where you were that day? Um, As I recall, it was

00:22:19.510 - 00:22:36.229

a Sunday and it was late in the day that I became aware of it, and I don't think I was probably anywhere except at home. Um-hum. Just, uh, no, no, uh, spectacular place or anything. Did it affect you at all? I was really rather untouched by

00:22:36.229 - 00:22:55.199

it. My knowledge of geography is and and was and is not all that proficient, so Pearl Harbor didn't mean anything to me as a location and say that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. And the great amount of uh consternation that the next day's headlines carried with

00:22:55.199 - 00:23:10.640

it kind of rolled over me at first, you know, where is Pearl Harbor what is Pearl Harbor was my reaction to it, but I became aware that it was uh the United States possession and that we had been in fact attacked and we're at war, that

00:23:10.640 - 00:23:25.880

the war was declared, uh. That the response, the retaliation took place immediately and that the war was declared the next day as nearly as I can recall. Did you take in part, uh, any part of the war? Not, uh, not in any, um, specific sense. My

00:23:25.880 - 00:23:47.560

husband, uh, to whom I had been married only about, uh. 3 weeks at a time the war was declared. Um, was affected in that he was draft age and draft status and um he made a valiant effort to to uh stay out of the uh military

00:23:47.560 - 00:24:07.469

confrontation in his opinion it wasn't for him and I think you know that. Uh, gets shared, uh, that, that opinion gets shared depending on the generations. One of the things he did, however, was to, uh, work in the defense plants instead of, uh, going to the,

00:24:07.479 - 00:24:27.420

uh, military. So we lived in, no, we lived in Flagstaff, Arizona, and we lived in California. I, I lived in Los Angeles and he worked in the shipyards at Eurry. California. What were the circumstances of you moving to Flagstaff? Uh, his, his, uh, job assignments in

00:24:27.420 - 00:24:47.300

the first place, I guess we can all be fairly honest with ourselves and say that war improved the financial status of many people. Um, the depression was just over, I mean. Not just over, but still, uh, my first job paid $90 a month. Um-hum. As a

00:24:47.300 - 00:25:05.119

comparison with what people earn nowadays in 1940. Is that pretty good money? Yeah, it's pretty good money and it was $90 on a 12 month basis as opposed to $90 for 10 months, so that would be $900 a year. Um but, um. The school district that

00:25:05.119 - 00:25:21.410

I went to work for, the Abilene School District, did give you an option of taking your drawing your money in 12 payments equal to spread it over the whole summer. What school was that? That school is now called the Carter G. Woodson School. I'm not sure

00:25:21.410 - 00:25:40.819

that it had a name at that time. There was no particular Carter G. Woodson being a black historian, I believe, you may know more about him than I do, but um. The school name escapes me if it was not the same then as it is. Yes,

00:25:41.060 - 00:26:03.229

right, it had 1212 grades, but it was, um, and it was a, a decent school. It was not a, uh, a really, uh, backwards, uh, school which would spread ignorance as we used to say, but, um, it did have some. We had accredited teachers and everybody

00:26:03.229 - 00:26:23.819

had degrees from some school in Arizona. Did you own your own home? No, we lived in a little uh rented cabin there. It was really, really rather primitive. There were a lot of Indians, um, in Flagstaff and. I don't really know how far my husband's job

00:26:23.819 - 00:26:40.609

was from where we lived, but it seemed to me that there was hardly anything like what I was used to in San Antonio in the way of a city, nor even in Abilene, which was a fairly large size, uh, Midwest, a Western city. Did you teach

00:26:40.609 - 00:26:59.719

Indians at that point? No, no, I didn't work. I had a baby by that time, um, we went out there was that that was Oscar. He was born in, um. June of 1942 and we went, uh, my husband left, um, about three months later to improve

00:26:59.719 - 00:27:20.300

his, his, uh, because he was only earning $75 a month working at the military base there before the war, um, began and there was always a rumor of money to be made, you know, when like the grass is greener in other pastures. And so, uh, Abilene

00:27:20.300 - 00:27:34.739

didn't appear to hold any particular promise of getting ahead there. Um. And, uh, he had a lot of ambition about. Did you own a car? Not at first. Not at first. Did you, did you own one in Texas? No, huh-uh. No, we did not. Uh, what

00:27:34.739 - 00:27:57.670

were the circumstances of you moving from Abilene to California? Well, uh, when we went to Flagstaff, It was a really deprived, uh, situation and I was very unhappy in Flagstaff, um, nobody to relate to, no, uh, similar life to what I had experienced up to that

00:27:57.670 - 00:28:14.739

point. Uh, I was. Taking care of one child, which took a lot of time for a person who doesn't. Uh, know anything about taking care of a baby. You spend all your time taking care of the baby and uh so between that and cooking on a

00:28:14.739 - 00:28:36.180

wood stove and uh right having a having a rather primitive life uh and also with his changing he decided to change I think it was not all he had hoped for too we went back to Abilene at Christmas. Of that year as nearly as I can

00:28:36.180 - 00:28:57.630

recall. I would have to stop and think about the sequence. Um, At any rate, and, and I would be able to get it straight if I because I remember visiting his grandmother, my husband's grandmother, his father's mother. And uh her husband who was not his his

00:28:57.630 - 00:29:15.589

natural grandfather step grandfather to let them see two children at some time in this whole thing but I think we only had one child at the time I returned from Arizona I know we did because um I became pregnant with the second child in Los Angeles

00:29:15.589 - 00:29:37.810

so I'm really kind of a little bit confused on the sequence, but I did go to Flagstaff. Late in 42 or early in 43. And then went back to Texas, spent some time in Houston with my parents while he was getting resettled and then rejoined him

00:29:38.160 - 00:29:55.839

perhaps in the spring of 43. Now it's coming clearer in the spring of 43, um with this one child who was by that time 9 months old. We joined him where? We joined him in California. Where? In Los Angeles. Did you, did you, uh, do you

00:29:55.839 - 00:30:17.709

remember where in Los Angeles? I lived in a, a very, uh, poor section of the city. Uh, downtown close to 8th and Town Streets because I, I, uh, attended a church that, uh, Bishop Frederick Jordan of the Methodist Church now pastor. Uh, live theater stage productions

00:30:18.089 - 00:30:35.060

and um as well as films, you know, movie films it was a real double feature, great big double feature you could spend all the afternoon in the in the theater and um I remember seeing Count Basie there in person for instance during that that time. Um,

00:30:35.250 - 00:30:47.849

anyone else? Can you remember? Oh yeah, I can't remember anyone who made as much of an impression, but there was always a series of, uh, entertainers because that's the kind of theater it was. What was your occupation at this point? I was not employed at this

00:30:47.849 - 00:31:00.430

time. I was taking care of this one little baby and I spent all my time taking care of him and, uh, didn't know anything else, you know, how to do anything else but take care of that one child that was Oscar, and, uh, then I became

00:31:00.430 - 00:31:17.589

pregnant almost immediately again. Um, after reaching Los Angeles with my second child and, um, by that time had, um, decided that I was too far away from either my husband's mother or my own mother to have a baby by myself, you know, so I decided to

00:31:17.589 - 00:31:37.819

come on back to. Um, Texas against really against my better judgment but I decided I wanted to come back but how did you like? I liked California's appearance. I liked the way you know the city of Los Angeles looked um. Insofar as it was pretty, but

00:31:37.819 - 00:31:58.199

I never got decent housing. I was unhappy because of that. Let, let me go back to your early days in Texas one more time. OK. What was your best friend's name in Texas? Oh, gosh. High school buddy. Um, My best friend probably uh changed a couple

00:31:58.199 - 00:32:20.170

of times there but Eloise Stewart was one of my best friends and boyfriend what was his name? uh let me see. The one that I didn't stands out. I didn't have any, uh, Any, um, sex appeal during that time I don't think I, uh, I remember

00:32:20.170 - 00:32:36.670

having crushes on a kid from the 5th grade on up, you know, somebody from one time to the other, but, uh, with my dance. Uh, the Charleston and the Big Apple, you do all those dance? Not very well. I'm not that good at dancing, not today

00:32:36.670 - 00:32:54.459

even. What was your favorite record at that point? Um, we didn't have records. That wasn't any kind of a craze. We were lucky to have a radio, and I, we had an old Atwater Kent radio in our house that had a, a box type, um. Receiver

00:32:55.400 - 00:33:10.439

for the uh you know tubes to be in and then it had a loudspeaker separate from that uh they were both made of metal and the loudspeaker with the stand that it stood on was on top of the box and I remember when my dad brought

00:33:10.439 - 00:33:29.079

that home. It was a real marvel to us Atwater Kent Radio in two parts and the music we heard on there was uh. Only country music and country music is very popular again today and I like country music but I I think country music was about

00:33:29.079 - 00:33:53.250

all we had to choose from between that and uh. Um, Perhaps Um, Religious music, uh-huh. Oh, religious music? Yeah. Oh, You're in California. You're moving back to Texas now. Yeah. All right. What did you do when you got back to Texas? Um do you own a

00:33:53.250 - 00:34:14.770

car yet? No, I don't own a car. OK, you're back in Texas. My, um, I came back to Texas about October of 1943 and I went to work. Um, For a. For the went to work with the principal of the school that I had last taught

00:34:14.770 - 00:34:32.770

at there, the Abilene High School. Uh, he was also, as is often the case in, in black, uh, small town, uh, black communities, he was all things to all people, so he had been asked to operate the USO club by the Salvation Army, which operates US

00:34:32.770 - 00:34:49.929

did operate some of the USO clubs during World War II and still does, I guess. Anyway, Mr. Stafford, my principal, um, and his wife with whom I had lived before I married, what was her name? uh, Sammy, Sammy Marie Stafford, they were my friends as well

00:34:49.929 - 00:35:02.899

as colleagues, so when they heard I was back in town they wanted me to take over this, uh. Directing this USO club. So I directed a USO club for about a year. Um. Took time out for the baby to be born in February. He's born on

00:35:02.899 - 00:35:18.919

the 11th of February 1944. That's my second child, Richard. That's Dickie. Uh-huh OK. And, uh, as soon as I, uh, was able to go back to work, say 6 or 8 weeks later, and I'm always working. Um-hum. Uh, I go back to work. How much would

00:35:18.919 - 00:35:46.459

you make in an hour? Gosh, I don't have any idea. I have it somewhere on a resume. It was probably. I probably made around, uh, 100, uh. A month, 150. Might have made 200, I really haven't got much of an idea. in too, right? Yeah, it

00:35:46.459 - 00:36:06.969

was coming on up, see. Um-hum. From $90 a month when I first started in 1940, and this is 44, I'm sure it must have been up around 100. Or 150. And your husband was making how much at that point? Um, I can't really be sure. Well,

00:36:07.459 - 00:36:22.179

between the two of you, you were making pretty good money though, right? Yeah, I guess I would say we probably, uh, had a decent, uh, standard of living. We would not have been at, uh, if they were, if there had been a poverty level income guideline

00:36:22.179 - 00:36:36.959

at that time, we'd have been above it and shit, you know, based on the number of people we had to take care of with what we had to work for. OK, um, how long were you in Texas before you decided to move again? Um, Well, as,

00:36:37.050 - 00:36:58.729

as strange as it seems, he went on back to, uh. Um, California. After Dick was born, about 23 months after Dick was born, he went back. Abilene still didn't have anything to offer. Um-hum. And I stayed there, but, uh, as, as strange as it seems, I

00:36:58.729 - 00:37:16.780

was pregnant when he left. That was Raymond. The Third child. With the third child. OK. They, those two children are only about 15 months apart. Uh, and Raymond was born in May of 1945, the next year, but I worked in the school. I returned to teaching

00:37:16.780 - 00:37:31.260

school that September, not knowing I was pregnant. Same, yeah, same school. Was this a separation between the two of you or divorce? No, no, we were still together. He was, he was working out there and I was working in Texas, but I decided after I learned

00:37:31.260 - 00:37:46.679

I was pregnant that since I had been with his mother, whose name was Tyna Appleby. And her and stepfather, that was a stepfather, um, Charles Appleby, since I've been with them for the birth of those two older children, I would, uh, try to go to Houston

00:37:47.459 - 00:38:04.760

where my mother was for the birth of this third child. And uh so I worked until the end of April. They didn't want me to leave, um, and that was a little, uh, Little advanced because women weren't permitted to work as long with, uh, you know,

00:38:04.879 - 00:38:19.929

being pregnant back in 1945. You couldn't teach and, could you have children and teach at that time or be married and teach? And what I'm saying is that they let me work. The, the school principal stood between me and public opinion and between me and and

00:38:19.929 - 00:38:35.310

they didn't have any regulation on it apparently. So I worked as long as I felt that I could afford to work and not, uh. Take chances on having the baby on the job, so, so, uh, because I really wasn't sure how, when the baby would be

00:38:35.830 - 00:38:49.665

born, would be born, but I left there right when I left there at the end of April, Raymond was born on the twenty-sixth of May, so that just kind of. Gives you an idea of how? He was born in Houston, Texas. At what hospital? He was

00:38:49.665 - 00:39:00.784

born in my my parents' home. Oh. Neither of my children up to that point had been born in the hospital. Can you, can, can you remember any of the, uh, your coworkers' names that, was that at that same school with you? Yeah, I can remember their

00:39:00.784 - 00:39:25.479

names. A couple of them maybe. Uh, there was a woman named Leola Jones, um, She was the English uh instructor in high school. Um, there was a, a woman named, um. Uh ward what was Marie Ward. Uh, and her sister-in-law. Uh, another Mrs. Ward, I believe

00:39:25.479 - 00:39:42.469

her name was Shelley Ward, she was a home economics teacher, and, and, uh, Marie was a, an elementary classroom teacher. She was a combination of elementary and high school. And we always had a coach of the basketball team. There was a guy named Harding T. Dion

00:39:42.469 - 00:39:55.709

who was the coach. He was a classmate of mine at Purview. So were the staffs. Well, Mr. Stafford was a graduate of Purview, and, uh, it was when he was down there for summer school that he was referred to me by my department here, Doctor Bo

00:39:55.709 - 00:40:08.860

Anderson Fuller, who's now at Lincoln University. As the head of the music department there and has been there for many, many years, but he was my department head at Prairie View and he referred me to, he referred Mr. Stafford to me so there were a lot

00:40:08.860 - 00:40:28.389

of Prairie View people taught who taught, uh, all over the state since it was a land grant school. And uh not necessarily because there were some other teachers colleges, other land grant uh not not other land grant colleges but other church schools. Mrs. Stafford was a

00:40:28.389 - 00:40:47.540

graduate of Wiley. It was the socialite school, you know, right, yeah, that's where all the socialites went to school. She had grown up in Dallas. And so she went to Wyoming. All right. Were you in any sororities or anything. No, no, sororities were not, uh, A

00:40:47.540 - 00:41:05.280

part of the Lane grant schools, so. Mystique, I don't know whether. They were forbidden by land grant, uh, charters or what, but Fairview did not have any sororities or fraternities. I never have been a member of a sorority. Did you live in the dorm at the

00:41:05.280 - 00:41:20.870

college? Uh-huh. All right, um, uh, is there anything else that you can reflect on that might have happened to you while you were in Texas before moving to Kansas City that you might? Oh, I should say that I grew up, uh, In a very religious atmosphere

00:41:20.870 - 00:41:35.709

and I do owe a great deal of what I think I developed into to the developmental opportunities that I think the church provided not because it was my father but I think that was what people did with their time that when I was growing up you

00:41:35.709 - 00:41:52.729

went to church you didn't have uh. Um, as many opportunities for recreation. My folks had a car and we were more fortunate than, uh, my dad owned a La Salle at the time of his death, but he usually drove a big heavy passenger car like a,

00:41:52.979 - 00:42:11.239

in a La Salle I think is equivalent to a Cadillac, but, uh, we usually had a, a big car. Might have been um. Uh, DeSoto or something like that. Packer. Yeah. Right. And. Um, uh, what size congregation did your father have? Oh, it was a big

00:42:11.239 - 00:42:31.639

congregation. I would say, um, 2500 people something like that. It's a big church, yeah. OK. Um, do you, do you remember, um, the date of your baptism? I think I joined the church when I was 9, but I don't have any great recollections of anything related

00:42:31.639 - 00:42:49.439

to it. No great overwhelming conversion took place in my life, you know. I was right there in the church. I was not a disobedient kind of a child. I didn't have any particular conflicts with my parents growing up. Um, I, I can contrast myself with one

00:42:49.439 - 00:43:07.719

of my sisters who was sort of rebellious, and that's why I compare myself. I didn't, uh, my parents didn't believe in letting us play cards, um, go to, uh, movies until I was, I guess, around 1516 years old. What did they think of the Charleston? Uh,

00:43:07.840 - 00:43:22.639

well, my brother wore out shoes regularly we went to Charleston, and they did finally figure out something was happening, but. So far as letting us, uh, have dances, uh, parties where we danced in the home or anything of that kind, we had to go on picnics

00:43:22.639 - 00:43:37.080

and, uh, go down in the country and visit our relatives on daily on a day's outings, uh, or go to the zoo or go to the library. My mother was very interested in theater, a little theater, and she would take us to little theater productions or

00:43:37.080 - 00:43:51.159

we sang in the choir. We, we. Uh, the girls all had a chance to learn music and one of my brothers is a professional musician and, uh, so we were all my mother was very interested in our developing musical talent so these were the outlets we

00:43:51.159 - 00:44:17.600

had we didn't didn't get off into, uh, worldly, uh, quote unquote, um recreational things like. Um, Some children might have had so my my orientation in Texas I think uh. Developed a sort of a scholarly um. Uh, foundation and an appreciation for a standard of life

00:44:17.600 - 00:44:42.060

that was, um. You know, rather, uh, Rather developmental. I don't I think we, we had the opportunity to. Uh, aspire to. The Um, developmental things in life. Where were the hemlines now? Where were the what? The hemlines. Oh, dresses were kind of long when I got

00:44:42.060 - 00:44:58.399

up to a point where I could, I could make any comparison. Didn't matter, I suppose, when you were a child what, uh, you wore short dresses if you were a girl, but. I remember that hemlines were mid, mid length, mid calf length when I was in

00:44:58.399 - 00:45:13.310

high school. Was that considered short? Pretty long. No, I don't think they were considered short. Um. I never wore ankle length dresses in my, uh. Never did? In my, you know, that, that would be an evening dress. That would be something you'd wear to the prom.

00:45:13.709 - 00:45:27.939

Um-hum. And I, I had long dresses that I wore to the, Junior senior prom, who took you to the junior senior prom? Uh, that's an interesting question. Uh, the, the junior senior prom when I was a senior, I think I didn't go when I was a

00:45:27.939 - 00:45:43.379

junior, but the one when I was a senior, a guy who was a bishop in the, um, uh, Kansas district, Ernest T. Dixon, took me to the junior senior prom. Billy Dixon is what we called him, and he lived a block above me, but he's quite

00:45:43.379 - 00:46:02.389

famous. He's the head of the Kansas. He's bishop. Of the whole Kansas, uh, Uh, diocese or whatever it's called in the Methodist church, that's Ernest T. Dixon. And then, um, when I went to the junior senior prom in, uh, at Saint Philip's Junior College, one of

00:46:02.389 - 00:46:20.110

my brothers was my escort. Alright, where is Saint Phillip's Junior College? Saint Phillip's Junior College was about 8 blocks from where I lived, where I grew up. It's in San Antonio. It was an Episcopal school at that time. It is now part of the public schools,

00:46:20.270 - 00:46:37.199

I believe, been taken into the public schools sort of like. The University of Missouri used to be the University of Kansas City and later became a part of the university system here in Kansas City. Well, Saint Philip's Junior College became a part of the, uh, school

00:46:37.199 - 00:46:52.459

district in San Antonio. I don't know whether it's an extension of the of the public schools or whether it's a part of a junior college district there, but that's where I went to school. Yeah, well, I mentioned that I finished high school at 15 and I

00:46:52.459 - 00:47:11.909

was too young to go away, junior so I went to junior college and um. You know, got two years of schooling right there in San Antonio. All right, back in Kansas City, all right, you, um, your job, you had worked with the Girl Scouts. Yeah. Then

00:47:11.909 - 00:47:26.229

I went to Atlanta. Then you went to Atlanta. And I came back to Kansas City after, uh, a year and a half away. My marriage didn't work out. Um-hum. But I also had problems in the family back here, which caused me you divorce? I am still

00:47:26.229 - 00:47:46.570

not divorced. I've been separated, however, since, uh, Late, uh, early '69, I guess, about the middle of '69, we decided we would not uh resume the marriage, although I didn't live, I didn't return here. In the first place with the full knowledge that the marriage was

00:47:46.570 - 00:48:01.870

over, but by the middle of '69, it was our decision that the marriage would probably not be resumed, could not be resumed. What was your profession now? Uh, when I was in Atlanta, I taught in this, uh, basic adult education program, and when I came back

00:48:01.870 - 00:48:15.780

to Kansas City, I was looking for a job. I didn't want to do either one of the things that I had done before like work at the welfare office or work for the Girl Scouts. And I was referred to Mr. Threep by two friends who thought

00:48:15.780 - 00:48:33.219

highly of me and he hired me and so that was how I became a city government employee working for model cities. Mm. All right, um, you got a problem. What's the problem? Where, where were you? Uh-huh. Because Milton and I went to high school together. Yeah.

00:48:33.260 - 00:48:49.989

In the early 60s. Milton finished high school in '64, so he was in Lincoln. He was in, uh, he went to school in Lincoln one year, then he went to the University of Missouri at Columbia and he was in Columbia when I went to Atlanta. Oh,

00:48:50.169 - 00:49:02.820

they were here? Right. Who were they staying with? There was only one child not accounted for. The others were out from home. Raymond had gone into the Air Force. Oscar had gone into the Air Force. Um, Oscar made a career of the Air Force. He was

00:49:02.820 - 00:49:18.439

still in the Air Force. Um, Raymond was probably out of the Air Force and was living here. He was married. He married at 19. Where were you in 6262, 63, 64. I was right here in Kansas City. What were you doing then? I was working at

00:49:18.439 - 00:49:35.520

the, for the Girl Scouts. I worked for Girl Scouts from 60 to 67. Oscar finished high school in '60. And at Central High, all of them finished from Central High, and he left home. He was the first one to leave home at 18. He went to

00:49:35.520 - 00:49:52.120

school at University of Omaha, or University of Nebraska. It is now. And, uh. Did you finish there? No, he finally finished in 1973 from Park College. He came back home from the Air Force on, uh, an academic year's academic leave. Did you ever work. I didn't

00:49:52.120 - 00:50:06.389

finish, did, did you, did you ever work for Human Resources Corporation? No, I worked as a volunteer on a board over at HRC Area 6. I thought you were a neighborhood developer for a while. No. Never was. Never was. I worked awfully hard because the children

00:50:06.389 - 00:50:18.300

had all pretty well gotten up and out. Milton was in college and David was the only child I had at home, and he was 15 or 16 and he didn't need a whole lot of attention. Uh, except, you know, to be looked after and protected against

00:50:18.300 - 00:50:38.310

falling into big holes, but, uh, it gave me a lot of time and I worked as a full time, uh, I worked for the Girl Scouts during that time, but I also had the opportunity to. Um, be the secretary of that board and participate in the

00:50:38.310 - 00:50:57.679

selection of that center, the, the location of the center. Um. The selection of the first director and again Mrs. Holliday and I have influenced each other's lives I. Coaxed her out of uh premature retirement and told her come on Margaret and help us get this center

00:50:57.679 - 00:51:13.429

off the ground so she became the first director of the HRC center and uh Mrs. Carter was a classmate of mine at uh Prairie View um wasn't a classmate, she was a schoolmate she was a year behind me. And I had kept up with her, Cecil

00:51:13.429 - 00:51:28.639

Carter. I had kept up with her and her husband was my husband's classmate too at Texas College, so um. The couples, the two of us were compatible, and I'd kept up with her in Kansas City here. So when I, and Queen of the World Hospital was

00:51:28.639 - 00:51:47.699

where she was working as a dietitian at that time, although her major was home economics, so they needed a childcare. Specialist on our staff at the HRC Area 6 Center and I recruited Cecil to come and be our child care specialist and uh then you know

00:51:47.699 - 00:52:03.780

it branched on into other things and she finally became the director when Mrs. Holliday. I left that job. So yeah, I worked over there in a volunteer capacity and and did it like it was a full time job for about 18 months. And I don't think

00:52:03.780 - 00:52:21.250

uh you were there at that time. You were, you came after I left and went to Atlanta. You were in Atlanta when I? I imagine so because I left here in July of '67 going to Atlanta. I came back to Kansas City. I, I was on

00:52:21.250 - 00:52:38.280

a sabbatical, having worked six years for the Girl Scouts. I had earned a sabbatical, a, a month's leave, so I honeymooned on my sabbatical and I came back, resigned my job, and moved back to Atlanta, and the only person I left here. Uh, dependent child I

00:52:38.280 - 00:52:51.500

left here was David. He was 16. He didn't want to move to Atlanta with me, and my mother, uh, didn't want me to, uh, leave him with anyone else. She, she felt that she was the proper one, and I wasn't sure about that, but at any

00:52:51.500 - 00:53:11.639

rate. She took care of David for me and he went to Central. He didn't. What was your address? He couldn't. Same address, 32 and Wild. So, um, Anyway, I came back here in, in, uh, October or November of '68 to see about Milton who'd had a

00:53:11.639 - 00:53:28.159

breakup, a crack up emotional crisis down at Columbia, uh, down in MU at Columbia and that, that was the basic reason I came back to see about him and then when I found out how serious his problem was I didn't see how I could go back

00:53:28.159 - 00:53:42.949

without, uh, a lot of. Uh, I, I'd have become emotionally ill myself to have to go back and find and leave him here. One thing intrigues me, what was your source of income while you were, um, uh, doing all this volunteer work? I was still working

00:53:42.949 - 00:53:56.810

for the Girl Scouts. Girl Scout? Yeah, and they encouraged us to do community work. It was all connected with the kind of thing I was always looking for a new leader or a new person that I could recruit into Girl Scouting. But I worked at the

00:53:56.810 - 00:54:13.699

Girl Scout office usually I worked a 6 to 8 hour day, uh, with with no problem and but with not without having a husband, I was divorced from my children's father. He later died, but having no husband and and not being all that sure that, uh,

00:54:13.889 - 00:54:30.770

boyfriends could contribute anything to my life. I didn't spend much time fooling around with boyfriends. I didn't use my time and I'm in my 40s by this time anyway, you know, I'm not, uh. I'm not all that um persuaded that uh one man's that much different

00:54:30.770 - 00:54:47.870

from the other by this time you know so I spend my time looking after my children and participating in church community activities so that's but I was full time employed by the are you still a member at that time uh of the same church? Right. And

00:54:47.870 - 00:55:04.830

who's pastor now? Uh, Reverend Briscoe, Charles Briscoe. Now I did join another church on an interim basis because I played the piano for them. I needed additional income to help take care of my children and I had developed a certain proficiency in playing the piano. Where

00:55:04.830 - 00:55:20.389

did you, and that was the Progressive Baptist Church. I played the piano for Progressive from about 53 to 58. Did you play the piano any other time, uh, uh, on a pay basis? Right. I, I would substitute for people on vacation or. Uh, many of the

00:55:20.389 - 00:55:42.100

ministers would refer me to other ministers, and they call me on occasion, and I substitute for Reverend Scott, um, whose church is now at 23rd in Indiana. Uh, right there on that, um, Quite a lot, it's a house which he has converted into a church. born

00:55:42.100 - 00:56:12.560

in 12 was the first chance you you had any kind of insight at all into politics? Um personal insight. Like, uh, you were actually interested in who was president, let's say. Let's see. Um, on a very. Uh, jailed basis, I think that I became interested in

00:56:12.560 - 00:56:33.340

the presidency as an office during the presidency of Franklin Roosevelt. I was impressed and I guess I was 11 years old when he came into office, born in 21, he became president in 32. I think that it may be after the fact I may have become

00:56:33.340 - 00:56:58.929

a student of some degree of the Roosevelt years later than you know when he became president but I do remember uh becoming aware that. There was supposed to be some great hope for change for the better with Mr. Roosevelt's entering the presidency in 1932. Um, and

00:56:58.929 - 00:57:22.610

of course, with his having those 4 terms and beginning the 5th term. Um-hum. That would be a large part of my early, um. Did, did you feel Adulthood. Did you, um, um, How did you evaluate him as a president? Um, I am not a student of

00:57:22.610 - 00:57:45.129

enough depth to say that um I know enough to say anything about him as a president. I think I'm impressed that he was probably right for the times that there were some very serious problems which. Appear to conceivably be getting out of hand again. But that

00:57:45.129 - 00:58:04.830

what he did in establishing the Social Security program alone has kept us from another depression of that same magnitude. Because the depression, I lived through it with being a child born in 21 with the depression at its height. In 29 with the crash, the Wall Street

00:58:04.830 - 00:58:20.320

crash, I would have been eight years old when, when that happened. Well, what do you remember of the crash? I don't remember anything of the crash. I think I was sheltered and was extremely fortunate in my parentage that my mother and my father, I know that

00:58:20.320 - 00:58:38.969

we were. Um, poor. By some people's standards, we had uh my parents built the home that I grew up in. I wasn't born in that home, but when I was 3 years old, we moved into this home. My sister next to me is about 3.5 years

00:58:38.969 - 00:58:59.909

younger. She was born in that home where that my parents built, but that gives you some kind of an idea as to the solidarity that my father. A person there with 3 children, pastor in the church, which couldn't have been, um. Too unable to support him

00:58:59.909 - 00:59:18.830

if he was able to build a home. He built a home that had, um, Um, Living room and a dining room, a kitchen, pretty large size rooms. Um, a back porch across the back of the house where I think we had a lot of fun in

00:59:18.830 - 00:59:34.669

the summer months we ate dinner out there and moved the dining room table out there. Um. Two bedrooms and a bath. So you live a decent life then. We had a pretty decent life. OK. What do you remember from, uh, let's say the true. So, even

00:59:34.669 - 00:59:50.780

in spite of the depression, my, my folk, You know how they held on to that house and take care of us and send as many who wanted to go to school. 4 of us have degrees, 2 have master's. I don't have a master's. Um. It it

00:59:50.780 - 01:00:13.840

kind of, you know, that kind of foundation is what I'm saying. In spite of the depression they laid a foundation for us to have a standard of some kind. OK, what do you mean from the Truman era? Um, I'm impressed with Truman also that um. He

01:00:13.840 - 01:00:27.469

tried to um. Be a good, um, Uh, domestic and foreign. President in the Marshall Plan for instance where uh the.