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This is Edward Scott. Of the Black archives of Mid America. In Leavenworth, Kansas at the Leavenworth Army Base, and I'm interviewing Mrs. Thelma Holler. Thelma Holliwell. Wife of uh. Retired officer, Mr. Harry H. Holliwell. Who was a member of the 10th Cavalry and spent 29 years

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in the service of the United States Army. Um, the date is February 4th. Uh, 191976. Miss Miss Holliwell, uh, when and where were you born? I was born in Lawrence, Kansas, um 2009. July 4th sort of makes me a Yankee Doodle dandy. There are, uh, a

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lot of women who are not really willing to give us the data. They say, well, uh, over 50 years ago, people that I've interviewed before, well, what, uh. Uh, Was your husband also born in Lawrence? No, my husband was born in Van Buren, Arkansas. OK, uh,

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could you give me a little background on yourself, uh, say something about your grandparents. Well, my maternal grandparents, uh, were their names were Edwards and this grandparent, the father. I was born in Ohio as far as I know. Anyhow, he had a farm in Ohio, and

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shortly after the Civil War, he decided to leave Ohio. And come to Kansas. I guess many people were making treks into this part of the world at that time, and he brought his family, a family of, I think it was about 6 girls and just 1

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son was left at this time because 1 son had died in the Civil War. So he came into Kansas in a covered wagon, so I consider that we were a part of the pioneering group that came into Kansas. Um. My paternal parents, grandparents came out of

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Kentucky. And I'm not sure how much farther south than that that they probably came from, but, um, the name, the grandparent's name was a French name, so he could have come from New Orleans or I'm not sure exactly where. Mhm. They moved to Kansas City and

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the paternal grandparents uh. Lived in the Kansas City area while the maternal grandparents moved to Kansas and lived in the Oskaloosa, Kansas area. That's about 40 miles from this area. Uh, Did they give you, uh, were you told many tales of the, uh, of the experiences

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that that uh they encountered? I was told some and some that I remember, um, one thing, this, the grandfather who came from Ohio had um A tract of land on which he had a lot of walnut trees and Before he made this trip to Kansas, he

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cut down walnut trees and made a chest, a chest that would be used, uh, later to store clothing and things in, but which kept the food that they brought from Ohio to Kansas and uh that The chest stayed in our family for quite a long time

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and I'm I have often regretted the fact that I had the chest made into a table, but it was a rather cumbersome piece of wood or box, and so I thought it would be better made into uh an article that I could use in the house.

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And um, so when we went to Germany. I was recommended a carpenter who could do this, but I never should have taken the opportunity to change the box into a table. But, uh, that was one incident that happened from The past. I can also recall that

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my grandmother told about the other pioneer families that traveled along with them, how, um, They would come to various parks in the road and families would say, well, we're going to this state or we're going somewhere else, and she said that she could remember that they

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never heard of those families again. She didn't know whether they made made it or not, but she said there was lots of disaster along the way. So, uh, I can remember her telling about these incidents. Um, no, this was, uh, mostly on the maternal side, uh,

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what about, uh. Mm. The paternal side. The paternal side, I, I have been a one, a person to be inquisitive about my family, and it's real interesting that in many instances our families have closed out memories. They don't try to, uh, retain the things that have

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happened, and I think in a lot of instances that maybe the times have been so troublesome. That they want to forget whatever hardships they had in uh in survival. And so they haven't told the story, but I have inquired and I have, I still inquire of

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the older members who are still living in my family. What do you remember? What was the family name in this town or how can I contact the people who are related to us and they know very little and I expect that that's the story of a

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great many instances with our people. I encountered. Some of my questions. Um Now your, your mother and father, uh, uh, what did they do? What kind of life? My mother was was a housewife. Uh, my father, uh, was a furrier, um. Years ago in Kansas City,

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Missouri, there was a business, Shugart's Fur Company, and um Mr. Shugart was um. I, as I recall, a German Jew, he came to America and started this fur business in the Kansas in the Kansas City area, and he trained these boys, my father and his brother,

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uh, to be furriers, so they knew the industry from, uh, taking the pelts to sewing the pelts. They learned the whole thing and, uh. However, my father died, I guess that, uh, I guess he must have been in his late. In his 30s maybe or I

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really can't recall exactly what age he died because I was a child, I was about 11 when he died and um. But he had been a furrier. In fact, his title was fur inspector. The jobs like that, uh, did they pay very much in that time?

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I have no idea. Um-hum. How did the family, family, We lived a comfortable, we didn't have a car, um, but this was a day when not many people had cars anyhow, I would say we We would, I would not say that we were poverty stricken or

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anything of that sort, um. We lived comfortably. And what did your mother do? She was just a housewife. Well, she did work, she worked for other white women. I know I talked to a lady once and I asked her what her mother did and she said

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that she was just a housewife, but we know that that was quite a job. raising children. Oh, so she didn't to do. I see. Uh, what, what, uh, what of, uh, your educational background? Um, well, I, I mentioned that I grew up in the Kansas City,

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Missouri area as a youngster. I went to school at Wendell Phillips and then, uh, two years at Lincoln High. And on the death of my father, we moved to Lawrence, Kansas, and I finished high school in Lawrence and college in At KU. Mhm And then, uh,

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you went on to. I see. I think about 12 years I taught here and then married. So this is where you met your husband I see now he was, he was a soldier at the time. Do you know very much about his family? Well, I know

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that, uh, his father attended, uh, as a young man, Baptist College. I don't know whether that's in. Arkans let's see what part of Arkansas it is, but it's a Baptist College out of Arkansas and the mother attended Western University. Uh, that used to be in Kansas

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City, Kansas at Quindaro, and, uh. Let's see, his mother grew up in Independence, Kansas, and partly in Missouri. Um The family, her family came from around, I would say. Eastern Missouri, uh, the Higginsville, Warrensburg, that area. And the father. All of his family came from the

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south. Uh, Mostly the Arkansas area. Where there are very many stories or tales or realities, I should say that he has told about the experiences of his parents. Or grandparents? Well, let's see. Um, I only recall that a tale has been told about the grandfather, uh,

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my husband's father. That I think if I'm not mistaken, he had 29 children. That's quite a few. So there ought to be Holliwells everywhere in this land somewhere. But no, I um. I would have to, he would have to tell those tales, and I'm not sure

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everyone has the same curiosity that I have about finding out where we have come from and what made us tick, but it's always been something that I've been interested in. So. I have pride into the past as much as I could. Yes, we have two daughters

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grown. One lives in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and the other New York City. What are their names? Uh, Janice, Mrs. Mrs. David Grigsby, uh, and uh. Mrs. Michael Jones. Uh, now, how, what was the life? What was life like, uh. The wife of a military man at the

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time. What, what was the year that you got married? Got married in 441. Um, well, it was very interesting. I I've always appreciated being in the army because it gave me a chance to travel that I never would have had, that I always dreamed of but

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never thought would ever come to be. But um. Uh, soon after we were married. Almost, yes, within a half year, my husband was sent to India where he spent 3 years, almost 3 years, 33 months. So, uh, we were separated soon after our marriage and um.

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After he returned, uh, we began army tours in the states and, Then in 50, we had an overseas tour in to Germany. And We lived in Germany for 3 years and came back to the states. And had a tour or so here. Then we went to,

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uh, the Far East Okinawa, spent 3 years there. And uh after a tour or so here, then we were sent to Liberia. Add a tour there, so. He covered quite a bit of ground while we were. What was life like, uh, for him? In terms of,

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The way he was treated as a black soldier. Well, now those are things that I believe that would best be asked of him, um. I, I, I don't know. How to express his particular feelings, I'm sure there were times when. He felt injustices. I can recall

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one incident um that I might relate that was when we had come back from our overseas tour to Germany. This would have been about 53. Well, while we were overseas, of course, during that time, we learned about all the turmoil that was happening in America and

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uh Well, we thought that things were kind of straightening out, you know, that the race problems weren't going to be too great. So we arrived back in the States and we are on our way from New York to come to Kansas. We're driving. And um So

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I said to my husband, maybe you should try to cross, get across the state of Indiana before we try to uh Stay overnight somewhere. I said, you know, Indiana is as far as as southern as you can get. Oh, yeah, all things have changed, you know.

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So, I said, OK, so, uh, OK, it comes time to get a motel. So we stop at one place and they tell us, oh, someone just came in just a few moments ago and took our last. No, OK, we accept this, go on down the road,

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stop in another place. Just. Just someone just took the last place. Well, now I'm beginning to get suspicious now, and since I'm already this kind of a person, you know. Uh, I feel as though we're going to get runaround, you know. So I said, now you

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see what's happening. My husband refuses to see this, you know, so I imagine we stopped at least two more places. And we would give them the same kind of story. And this is the first time I've ever seen my husband do something like this. He got

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a little upset and, uh, our children were still small, you see. So, uh, he want, he didn't want to be stopping on the road. He didn't want to do that sort of thing. So anyhow, this place we stopped in. The woman came to the car and

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she said, no, we don't have a place, she said, but I'll telephone down the road and see if you can get a place down there. And, but this time my husband is really angry. And he says, well, you know, I've been in the army all this

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time, supposedly fighting for democracy, and here I come home and find out we haven't progressed at all, and I mean, he, well, he said a lot more things than that, but anyhow, she says, well, I'll see what my husband says, and she goes back into the

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motel. And I evidently she told our story or whatever it was and The man came out and he says, well, yes, you can stay. And then when we did stay, they couldn't do enough for us. I mean, they told us where we could go eat, no

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problems, but I mean, those are the kind of things that we met in '53 coming back across the country. Mm, so it was kind of upsetting. But I, I guess we weren't really too surprised, but I'm so glad things are straightened out. Uh, a little bit

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more, a little bit more, uh, here in, uh, here in Leavenworth, uh, um, what kind of conditions, uh, existed here, uh, as far as yourself, were you, are you teaching at, uh, were you teaching at an all-black school? At that time, um, there were The town

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was considered divided into a north and South Leavenworth and um. Um, each section of the community had a black school. A North Leavenworth school, which is called Lincoln and a South Leavenworth school called Sumner. And, um, The children did not go to, black children did not

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go to junior high for quite some time. Because the junior high was strictly for whites and uh The high school was a mixed high school, I suppose that the idea being that maybe enough of them would drop out before then and they wouldn't have to be

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bothered with too many, I guess that was the general idea, but anyhow. The, um, My the time that I while I taught here it was that sort of a situation. The elementary school was all I mean separated. There was, uh, there were people who were quite

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indignant and tried to do things about it, but nothing was done until they were ready. Mhm. Um, that's, that's uh an interesting thing. Um uh I know that here in the late 60s, uh the young blacks have Have, uh, rebelled in a sense against, uh, some

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of the injustices, and there has been a sort of tremor, um. Uh, and clamor from the people about the injustices. How would, how would the, who was the kind of thinking of, of a person who would, who would say, uh, want to make some changes in

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that time? Well, uh, I can remember. I can remember. Yeah. It's a good lady right. How you doing all right. I can remember an incident that happened to a relative of mine. Um, I'm not sure I'm gonna have all these details right, but I'll have the

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general, the generalized. Um, This relative was a principal of one of the schools here and there was to be a ball, a basketball game somewhere, I believe it was Kansas City, Missouri, and he wanted to take a young man, uh, to this bus, uh several young

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men to this basketball game. He wanted them to see, uh, this whoever was playing play, so, um. He got some bus tickets to take these young men, and when they boarded the bus, They were told that they would have to go back. That was right here

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in this town and. My cousin had, because he, he, he hadn't been used to traveling on the bus anyhow, he had a car, so he, this was something new for him to go down on the bus, you know, so, uh. When he was told he had

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to go to the back bus, why he, he's already hotheaded sort of person, and he said well he wasn't going to do it. He would go to the police station first and find out how come, why, and there'd have to be some kind of explanation. Well,

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um. And somewhere I have the papers about that because I have kept all of his uh papers. Anyhow, it seems like, When he went to the authorities and they found out what the patrol, the, uh, motorman had done, uh, this, he had gone beyond his capacity.

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Anyhow, he had no right to tell them where they could sit. So, uh, anyhow, there was a retraction right away and, uh, uh. It was straightened out and no more did that incident take place, but it had something was done immediately, you see, it wasn't, uh,

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which was good if he hadn't done something immediately while this other incidents like that would have continued on, you know. Hm. Um, and what other conditions existed around? Yeah, around this time as far as just the general sort of things that all of us had to

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endure like sitting in the balconies in theaters and Not eating, uh, in the restaurants, uh, I can remember this incident. It was during the sit-ins that were happening in the South and I happened to be in a store here in town. I believe it was Baker's,

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a little department store here in town, and they happened to have radio on. They didn't have music like they have now. They had radio. So, you know, uh, I was being waited on and uh. Um, we could hear. What was happening on this news item that

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was coming across and the clerk says to me, isn't that terrible, the way they're acting about uh Going in those places, I said, but do you know, they have to do that so that you will know I can't go across the street to the 10 cents

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store and sit down at the counter. She didn't know that, you see, many things, they are not aware because they don't see you, you don't exist, so I mean, you know, they don't see you there, they figure that you're satisfied, so if you don't make a

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clamor. You know, if the guy's standing on your foot and you don't holler, he figures you're comfortable, so you got to holler when he's standing on. Mhm In the field of education, uh, how have you seen, uh, how, how, what is your opinion of the progress

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of the, uh, uh, black man's? And in this area specifically. In America as a whole. Well, I think, uh, Let's see now, the question says, how have we, what kind of progress have we made? I think it's good. I think um in many instances too much

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has been laid on just colleagues. Mhm I I have always felt that, Uh, equal stress should be um. Traits that, uh, Everybody isn't fit. I don't mean fit, everybody isn't equipped. You should be equipped to go to college and in so many instances, colleges don't fit

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you for anything. Um I think um We're beginning to realize that you have to have more than just these kind of areas for our young people to enter the trades. I think, uh, I'll ask you another question concerning that because that's interesting uh you said there's

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too much emphasis uh you you think that there is too much emphasis on college and I know that all of us, uh, all people have. Something to offer So, uh, Uh, you're saying it's those people who don't have the, uh, the necessary equipment to, to, uh,

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say, get 4 years of college. Be a teacher, Uh, doctor or lawyer, they, uh, and with the, uh, changing of times in the, uh The way things are becoming complicated in terms of automobiles are larger and so forth, and there should be more emphasis on technical

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skills also for those people who are inclined that way. I think, I think there was a period of time in which we went through where getting an education was important. Uh, because we didn't have the reading skills or the those skills within the group maybe to

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do the things to to advance ourselves, but, uh, I don't think that's everything because I don't think that, uh, uh, everyone should have a college degree. I don't think. You have to be a success. I mean, I don't think college, I mean being having a college

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degree necessarily makes you a successful person, and the thing to do is to fit you where you belong or wanna be or where you. are best suited to be. That would be more important than a college education, I would think. Thinking in terms of uh of

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young. Uh, in the, you know, that's kind of a mystery I know that. The the world is opening up more in terms. Everything really, you know, with communications as they are, and we see more. the Uh, And I know that there was some, some kind of,

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there was a social life involved, a social aspect of uh of our history that maybe we we as uh people who are inclined to want to know more about history leave out. And then a lot of times we don't like to talk about a lot of

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little things. The little things and the little little games that we played uh as we were coming up. Uh, what about some of the social aspects of, uh, of that? See if I can think of what what would be appropriate here as an answer. The social

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life, you know. There were people that, you know, they're recording, uh, I noticed a movie the other night, but uh. The man didn't want this, this young man to come by the house, you know, and talk to his father because of the kind of thing, the

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way he had been raised and the way he had raised her in such a strict manner. Were your parents like this in terms of young men coming? Uh, I lived with a grandmother, so yes, I would think so, uh. Didn't have a father figure in the

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household at that time, so. That uh eliminated that sorry. I don't know that I could give you any answer to that sort of thing. But tell me about the other. Say the other, uh, the other young ladies in the town and the young men, what did,

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uh, were there were lots, lots of parties, uh, places to go to socialize or basically the church that play. Now, let's see. This was at KU, of course, and uh there were sororities at that time. 4, I guess 4 sororities and fraternities, that is 2 sororities

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and 2 fraternities on campus, but they weren't on campus, they were in the town and uh so there were formals, yes, and uh. I don't remember. I think one of the, uh, most interesting things that happened during those years, uh, social wise was uh. The fact

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that a group of girls got, um, a group got together to give a musical. Um Mayor Lawrence was a town which musicals didn't come, but girls who had lived in Kansas City knew about, uh, the musical, the, um. Yeah, I guess the musicals that came into

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Kansas City at that time there was a theater called Schubert. In Kansas City. Um, I don't remember what other theaters there were, but anyhow, uh, someone, the, the college itself used to give musicals, but of course we weren't a part of the college, uh, uh, program,

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and so whatever you did, you had to do on your own. So I guess this is why the girls of this group decided to give a musical, and that was a lot of fun and different. There were people on campus at that time who were good

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musicians and uh good directors. Uh, so, It was a nice effort that was put on a musical comedy using the songs of that era. And, uh, Really imitating what we what had been seen in the movies, that's what it really was. I remember, When I was,

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uh, growing up in grade school, we used to have the little, little plays at the, at the school. And I can always Get the girls dressed and they had the petticoats were sticking way out.